SGOTM 10 - Maple Sporks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Nice work Whosit...
We went all the way from Rifling to Electricity in one day!!!
Foolish me thinking we could build ironclads without coal!!! DOH!
First thing I noticed...Orenburgs second ring fish already has a fishing boat.
We have two boats in production...we can either have Orenburg start another build or that boat can be sent to the crabs south of Rostov.
I say start building a multiplier of some kind...the kind of multiplier will determine what kind of specs we run here. I'd suggest a lib since we will only get 4 hammers here and the lib will still take 31 turns! The rest of the multipliers are too costly.
I don't see how we can pop a GP in 2 turns...best to just switch to merchants and see what happens in 3 turns.
I agree with not disbanding units...at least not yet...longbows can be relegated to the back row cities.
We have enough cash to pay the extra fees and they can be upgraded to rifles in emergencies.
I agree that we can switch and quickly research Corp for the trade routes...its basically free money.
Totally agree! Now if we fail to get a merchant this time two things to figure out.
1) What to do with the Great Scientist???
Bulb Fission I assume.
2) Do we go full merchants another turn and try again???
I say yes because it sounds like fun to run Sids!!!
But where will we found Sushi???
Moscow will have lots of multipliers in place and could handle building our executives but we could not build Wall Street here.
Novo has an open slot and could build Wall Street. But we still would need 4 more banks to be constructed and I don't really see us putting that much infra in place to get the Corp benefits.
I think we should just plant the HQ in Moscow as we are planning on building the multipliers there anyways. But I am open to other suggestions too.
Just going to run down Sengirs build plans and toss in my two cents.
Moscow looks good...
Orenburg I already mentioned.
Novo is unhealthy and we really don't have any buildings that will help as the grocer only provides one health point...this makes me pause about Sids. We won't be able to get 6 extra specs here...more like 4...lets keep that in mind. But the build plan looks fine here too.
Rostov sounds fine...maybe build our spies here so that Yaro can focus on the naval units.
It would take too long for navy produced here to reach the front lines.
Yaro has some hammer decay with its frigate but the Globe will be finished in two turns...I might go drydock>naval units here after putting a turn into the decaying frigate.
The best configuration for Yek that I can think of is to farm both of the grass workshops and to workshop both of the forested tundra. Currently we have 4 food and 12 hammers but we can't grow into the tundra tiles. So actually we have 2 food and 8 hammers since we can't work the tundra tiles. The new configuration would be 8 food and 8 hammers. If we get Sids in place there we can workshop everything and max out hammers.
Rifles and cannons here please!
Yak...I don't know about the uni here...at first I thought a harbor might be better but under Merc harbors are kinda nerfed. Maybe we build navy here too.
Our quickest method of conquest in the north is going to be submarines with nukes that hit the coastal cities and speedy amphibious landings directly into the city. Fallout can't affect water tiles so we will be able to strike the same turn that we fire! This will require a large strong navy and Yak can help provide that.
Vlad doesn't need the artist anymore...best to return to the engineer spec.
Continuing the uni here is fine...Vlad is due for another draft it would appear.
Smolensk is tricky too...I would first switch to run 4 artists and the engineer. Artists produce an extra beaker too so that is nice. Running extra artists in combination with a culture mission in Pete should grant us access to the flood plain tile again. Workshop over those tundras and we have a modest hammer base (21 base hammers) for the city.
Uni after the market is perfect for the culture and beaker boost.
I think Ironworks in Pete sounds great...can't wait to reclaim it!
We went all the way from Rifling to Electricity in one day!!!
Foolish me thinking we could build ironclads without coal!!! DOH!
First thing I noticed...Orenburgs second ring fish already has a fishing boat.
We have two boats in production...we can either have Orenburg start another build or that boat can be sent to the crabs south of Rostov.
I say start building a multiplier of some kind...the kind of multiplier will determine what kind of specs we run here. I'd suggest a lib since we will only get 4 hammers here and the lib will still take 31 turns! The rest of the multipliers are too costly.
I don't see how we can pop a GP in 2 turns...best to just switch to merchants and see what happens in 3 turns.
I agree with not disbanding units...at least not yet...longbows can be relegated to the back row cities.
We have enough cash to pay the extra fees and they can be upgraded to rifles in emergencies.
I agree that we can switch and quickly research Corp for the trade routes...its basically free money.
Sengir said:
Totally agree! Now if we fail to get a merchant this time two things to figure out.
1) What to do with the Great Scientist???
Bulb Fission I assume.
2) Do we go full merchants another turn and try again???
I say yes because it sounds like fun to run Sids!!!
But where will we found Sushi???
Moscow will have lots of multipliers in place and could handle building our executives but we could not build Wall Street here.
Novo has an open slot and could build Wall Street. But we still would need 4 more banks to be constructed and I don't really see us putting that much infra in place to get the Corp benefits.
I think we should just plant the HQ in Moscow as we are planning on building the multipliers there anyways. But I am open to other suggestions too.
Just going to run down Sengirs build plans and toss in my two cents.
Moscow looks good...
Orenburg I already mentioned.
Novo is unhealthy and we really don't have any buildings that will help as the grocer only provides one health point...this makes me pause about Sids. We won't be able to get 6 extra specs here...more like 4...lets keep that in mind. But the build plan looks fine here too.
Rostov sounds fine...maybe build our spies here so that Yaro can focus on the naval units.
It would take too long for navy produced here to reach the front lines.
Yaro has some hammer decay with its frigate but the Globe will be finished in two turns...I might go drydock>naval units here after putting a turn into the decaying frigate.
The best configuration for Yek that I can think of is to farm both of the grass workshops and to workshop both of the forested tundra. Currently we have 4 food and 12 hammers but we can't grow into the tundra tiles. So actually we have 2 food and 8 hammers since we can't work the tundra tiles. The new configuration would be 8 food and 8 hammers. If we get Sids in place there we can workshop everything and max out hammers.
Rifles and cannons here please!
Yak...I don't know about the uni here...at first I thought a harbor might be better but under Merc harbors are kinda nerfed. Maybe we build navy here too.
Our quickest method of conquest in the north is going to be submarines with nukes that hit the coastal cities and speedy amphibious landings directly into the city. Fallout can't affect water tiles so we will be able to strike the same turn that we fire! This will require a large strong navy and Yak can help provide that.
Vlad doesn't need the artist anymore...best to return to the engineer spec.
Continuing the uni here is fine...Vlad is due for another draft it would appear.
Smolensk is tricky too...I would first switch to run 4 artists and the engineer. Artists produce an extra beaker too so that is nice. Running extra artists in combination with a culture mission in Pete should grant us access to the flood plain tile again. Workshop over those tundras and we have a modest hammer base (21 base hammers) for the city.
Uni after the market is perfect for the culture and beaker boost.
I think Ironworks in Pete sounds great...can't wait to reclaim it!
Whosit
Entropic Knight
Oops! Well, uh . . . then we cottage EVERYTHING!
Sturick: Good eye on Orenburg's 2nd ring fish. Hmm. Maybe it should cancel the work boat and start the Library. Rostov can always put out another work boat pretty quickly for the icy crabs.
Rest of the plan sounds pretty good to me.
The more I think of it the more I'm convinced the whole situation is screaming for Sushi! Screaming, really. 162 beakers alone from specs, 162 more if all scientists or 81 beakers + 81 gold if half scientists half merchants. All before multipliers!! My god, that's an incredible amount! And we'll spit out even more GP. No doubt in my mind we should go for it. As Whosit points out, our research won't stop after nukes. We'll need all those oil units, ecology indeed is good, air units won't be bad...
Okay if we want to finsih fission first to start on Manhattan, but there'll be still time for that. Maybe that GS can indeed just help bulb fission out of the way so we can get to medicine sooner.
If we don't get a GM now, next run should indeed be for one for Sid. That'll take some 13-14 turns probably. With the 3 turns to go to next great person, in those 16-17 turns we should be able to get fission, medicine and if needed corp by self-research.
Okay if we want to finsih fission first to start on Manhattan, but there'll be still time for that. Maybe that GS can indeed just help bulb fission out of the way so we can get to medicine sooner.
If we don't get a GM now, next run should indeed be for one for Sid. That'll take some 13-14 turns probably. With the 3 turns to go to next great person, in those 16-17 turns we should be able to get fission, medicine and if needed corp by self-research.
Whosit
Entropic Knight
Hee hee, fishy fishy.
Oh, I was slightly out of my mind in my last comment. Cottages are meaningless. I meant "Farm EVERYWHERE and run Merchants until the end of time!"
On another note, Medicine will unlock Hospitals (and Ecology Recycling Centers). Just thought I'd mention that since sturick was concerned about health in Novgorod.
I'm really interested to see what the other teams did. I wonder if anyone tried to run a cottage economy. ^_^ We're still doing pretty well in Score and Power, but our beautiful Culture has taken a devastating blow. Well, Sid's will help with that!
Do we have any chance of founding other corporations? Though it'd probably be too much out of the way, and I'm not sure we have enough resources to make the coveted Mining, Inc. worthwhile, even if we could get another Great Engineer.
Oh, I was slightly out of my mind in my last comment. Cottages are meaningless. I meant "Farm EVERYWHERE and run Merchants until the end of time!"
On another note, Medicine will unlock Hospitals (and Ecology Recycling Centers). Just thought I'd mention that since sturick was concerned about health in Novgorod.
I'm really interested to see what the other teams did. I wonder if anyone tried to run a cottage economy. ^_^ We're still doing pretty well in Score and Power, but our beautiful Culture has taken a devastating blow. Well, Sid's will help with that!
Do we have any chance of founding other corporations? Though it'd probably be too much out of the way, and I'm not sure we have enough resources to make the coveted Mining, Inc. worthwhile, even if we could get another Great Engineer.
Another thing to keep in mind regarding Sids is that there are so many more seafood resources on the map...
There are three more on our continent and tons on the northern continent.
Sids will only improve over time...especially if we target our initial attacks on cities that have seafood or rice resources.
I think the best tech plan at the moment is:
Fission>Corp>Medicine>Arty>Rocketry
I still think we need extra time to build Manhattan so Corp can wait until after we finish Fission.
There are three more on our continent and tons on the northern continent.
Sids will only improve over time...especially if we target our initial attacks on cities that have seafood or rice resources.
I think the best tech plan at the moment is:
Fission>Corp>Medicine>Arty>Rocketry
I still think we need extra time to build Manhattan so Corp can wait until after we finish Fission.
Other corps than Sushi I don't know, the amount of sea food is impressive while the amount of other resources not that much. Mining Inc normally is popular, but from the top of my head I think there are relatively few mining resources.
Or Fission>Medicine>Corp>Arty>Rocketry so we keep the window for a trade for corp open longer.
On second thought, I like this idea. That is to say, research corp now and configure Moscow for the great person in two turns. That is actually 24 merchants, not 19!
Indeed food deficit for 2 turns, but no shrinking.If we then pop a GM configure for scientists, go ahead with medicine, build Sushi and then fission, art, rocketry. If we pop a GS, configure for merchants, part bulb fission and finish it, then medicine, art, rocketry.
I hadn't realized Manhattan is expensive as it is. I still think Smolensk might be a good candidate to build it, especially with Sushi food. We can workshop the tundra, workshop some farms, and I'd also mine/workshop those lumbermills it has. Then it will have rather decent hammer output. Best hammer city is Yeka, but being the HE city, better focus on units there. But with those workshops, it'll have better hammer output than Moscow or Novgo. So I think Smolensk needs worker attention (and noticed that lot of workers have movement left...).
I'd forget about culture battling for some tiles, we may lose 1 other tile, but the rest is save. With Sushi we'll more than offset the loss of that 1 tile.Regarding the worry about the build time of Manhattan and therefore going Fission first, on one hand that's true, otoh with Sushi food we'll be able to workshop a lot more tiles and the sooner we have that food the better. Dunno, well, also will depend on the great person we pop.
EDIT: Regarding where to found Sushi, is corporation income converted to beakers at 100% science?? A rather basic question, I know.
If so, then Novgo seems best to me. Even if it doesn't work like that Novgo can focus on a bank and a grocer, somehow I'd rather build it in a place where we still might get wall street one day.
Whosit
Entropic Knight
Corporation income (+4 gpt per city with the Corporation) is put directly into the treasury, much like a Shrine would act. The Corporation also raises the maintenance fee of a host city, so that should be taken into account. That's why it's usually best to put a Corporate headquarters in a Wall Street city to maximize the profit in order to off-set the increased maintenance, but I hadn't realized that we were so short on Banks, so Moscow is probably going to be the best place since, after a Market and Grocer, it'll multiply gold by 100% (so we'll get +8 gpt from a Corporation rather than +4 gpt). Not quite as good as +12 gpt, but we'll live. ^_^
Whosit
Entropic Knight
That's good enough for me!
Go ahead and play at your earliest convenience, Sengir. We may not have decided our plan down to the finest detail, but I think that it's more important to keep moving, what with the clock ticking. As far as I can tell, we're in a fairly strong position.
Oh, when the GP pops, check how many GPs we'd need for another Golden Age. I forget, and I'm just curious. Even though it's getting costlier for another GP, we could probably force-pop an Artist, Merchant, and/or Scientist if we're really gunning for another Golden Age down the line.
Go ahead and play at your earliest convenience, Sengir. We may not have decided our plan down to the finest detail, but I think that it's more important to keep moving, what with the clock ticking. As far as I can tell, we're in a fairly strong position.
Oh, when the GP pops, check how many GPs we'd need for another Golden Age. I forget, and I'm just curious. Even though it's getting costlier for another GP, we could probably force-pop an Artist, Merchant, and/or Scientist if we're really gunning for another Golden Age down the line.
I can tell you that right away: 2.
We had a GA sparked by a GE when the barbs landed at Rostov and we needed to whip a unit urgently.
) and I won't have time untill wednesday. Probably better that Norvin plays if he has time to keep the momentum going.Okay I see the reasoning for the rushed GP now.
Normally, red flags go off when I think of starving a city like that.
But I was neglecting the fact that Sids Sushi, when built, will quickly make up that lost food.
Thanks for the explanation.
Does anyone know if you get a second corp executive when you found Sids?
If Moscow is the only Sids Sushi city at first then it will be even more important to start production of an executive right away.
Lets work under the assumption that we pull a GM for a moment...55% chance by the way if we run 24 merchants those two turns.
It will take us 9 turns (I think) to tech Corp and Medicine.
Our courthouse and market will take 11 turns at normal production rates. 2 hammers for two turns during spec time and 25 hammers with the normal 16 spec config.
We should probably pull some scientists and put them to work in the forests and one as a engineer. Try to time completion of the market such that we can start an executive as soon as we found Sids. Or at the very least try to put a solid amount of overflow from the market into the executive as possible.
The faster we can produce the first executive the faster we can have two cities pump out to spread Sids quickly.
I would suggest Novo for the first executive since it doesn't really have a pressing building to create and we aren't relying on it heavily to produce military. Working the desert hill the city can pump out 20 base hammers which means 6 turn executives.
Yek would be my second target so it can grow into the tundra workshops...please keep one forest for the health point. The grass forest is a decent enough tile.
EDIT: Well on second thought...Yaro might be a good place to send the second exec. The Sids food will make drafting that much more effective.
Good luck to whomever is playing next...Wednesday is fine by me Sengir but if Norvin can grab it sooner then that works just as well.
Normally, red flags go off when I think of starving a city like that.
But I was neglecting the fact that Sids Sushi, when built, will quickly make up that lost food.
Thanks for the explanation.
Does anyone know if you get a second corp executive when you found Sids?
If Moscow is the only Sids Sushi city at first then it will be even more important to start production of an executive right away.
Lets work under the assumption that we pull a GM for a moment...55% chance by the way if we run 24 merchants those two turns.
It will take us 9 turns (I think) to tech Corp and Medicine.
Our courthouse and market will take 11 turns at normal production rates. 2 hammers for two turns during spec time and 25 hammers with the normal 16 spec config.
We should probably pull some scientists and put them to work in the forests and one as a engineer. Try to time completion of the market such that we can start an executive as soon as we found Sids. Or at the very least try to put a solid amount of overflow from the market into the executive as possible.
The faster we can produce the first executive the faster we can have two cities pump out to spread Sids quickly.
I would suggest Novo for the first executive since it doesn't really have a pressing building to create and we aren't relying on it heavily to produce military. Working the desert hill the city can pump out 20 base hammers which means 6 turn executives.
Yek would be my second target so it can grow into the tundra workshops...please keep one forest for the health point. The grass forest is a decent enough tile.
EDIT: Well on second thought...Yaro might be a good place to send the second exec. The Sids food will make drafting that much more effective.
Good luck to whomever is playing next...Wednesday is fine by me Sengir but if Norvin can grab it sooner then that works just as well.
Final note...we will need to cancel our two trades with DeGaulle so we get our seafood bonuses.
We don't get the corp benefits if we are trading resources to another civ.
We can wait until the last minute to cancel those deals so we don't lose any revenue.
We don't get the corp benefits if we are trading resources to another civ.
We can wait until the last minute to cancel those deals so we don't lose any revenue.
Norvin_Green
Emperor
Hey all I can more than likely play Tuesday night so this is a semi got it. Will review the last bunch of posts and post a short summary of my planned set.
We will not get a corp exec upon the founding of Sid's btw. We would have to build the first one. That is about the extent of my corporation knowledge though.
We will not get a corp exec upon the founding of Sid's btw. We would have to build the first one. That is about the extent of my corporation knowledge though.
Norvin_Green
Emperor
Here goes:
Tech:
Reconfigure Moscow to pop the GP in 2 turns then:
If we get a GM head towards Medicine
If we get a GS bulb Fission and tech the rest
Cities:
Moscow - (reconfigured after 2 turns) to complete CH>market when Medicine comes in
Novgorod cannons & ships
Rostov Market>Drydock>ships
Yaro GT>Frigate>units
Yek Jail>units/spies (farm & workshop)
Yak Frigates
Vlad Uni>Obs
Smolensk market>uni (workshop tundra)
Orenburg wb>CH
Keep an eye on Gandhi. Cancel DeGaulle fish deal right before founding Sids in Moscow.
Just a thought I want to throw out there we arent required to build the Manhattan Project in order to enable nukes. Would it make sense to get to Fission and then trade it to one of the AIs and let them build it while we tech to Rocketry and can actually use our nukes first?
Another thought I had the other day is that after we take Gandhi down would be to try to take on Mao next. He has the Confu shrine built and his only source of Uranium in the two cities nearest us. We then might want to build Wall Street where the shrine is.
Tech:
Reconfigure Moscow to pop the GP in 2 turns then:
If we get a GM head towards Medicine
If we get a GS bulb Fission and tech the rest
Cities:
Moscow - (reconfigured after 2 turns) to complete CH>market when Medicine comes in
Novgorod cannons & ships
Rostov Market>Drydock>ships
Yaro GT>Frigate>units
Yek Jail>units/spies (farm & workshop)
Yak Frigates
Vlad Uni>Obs
Smolensk market>uni (workshop tundra)
Orenburg wb>CH
Keep an eye on Gandhi. Cancel DeGaulle fish deal right before founding Sids in Moscow.
Just a thought I want to throw out there we arent required to build the Manhattan Project in order to enable nukes. Would it make sense to get to Fission and then trade it to one of the AIs and let them build it while we tech to Rocketry and can actually use our nukes first?
Another thought I had the other day is that after we take Gandhi down would be to try to take on Mao next. He has the Confu shrine built and his only source of Uranium in the two cities nearest us. We then might want to build Wall Street where the shrine is.
In general the plan sounds fine. I do have one proposition to make though which I think is a good idea, and I hope you all agree.
The proposition is to start on Ironworks in Smolensk and preferrably even now. It won't benefit that much of markets or universities and if anything, we lack a good production site. Also Yeka for instance has 2 national wonders already, like Moscow does, so I don't see any other good candidate for IW. As I have tried to argue before, Smolensk has big hammer potential. It can be workshopped all over: the tundras, that plain with the lumbermill and also the grasslands, more so after Sushi (I think it should get it quickly!). I don't think Smolensk should be yet another specialists site.
It must be fairly straightforward to get Smolensk to 28 base hammers. With 25% of forge and 50% of being industrious, IW can be built in 945/(28*1.75) = 19.3 turns. Of course we don't have 28 base yet, so it will be longer, but we can send all our workers there now. After IW it can build Manhattan really quicker than any other city. Even with those 28 base hammers (which could be more by then) it would be just 2025/(28*2.25)/2=16 turns (last division by 2 because of uranium). Any other city would need at least double or more turns to complete Manhattan so the investment of IW in Smolensk and then Manhattan pays off.
EDIT: come to think of it, this also gives more window in our research. We don't even need fission until Smolensk finishes IW...
I wouldn't count on the AIs to build Manhattan, if only because they are still at least 3 techs away, or more (physics, elec, fission and in some cases sci meth). And I wouldn't necessarily show them actively the way to fission... Apart from that they don't seem to be willing to trade much right now.
Agree that Mao is a likely target after Gandhi, but a lot of water has to go through the Volga still before we have to decide that.
The proposition is to start on Ironworks in Smolensk and preferrably even now. It won't benefit that much of markets or universities and if anything, we lack a good production site. Also Yeka for instance has 2 national wonders already, like Moscow does, so I don't see any other good candidate for IW. As I have tried to argue before, Smolensk has big hammer potential. It can be workshopped all over: the tundras, that plain with the lumbermill and also the grasslands, more so after Sushi (I think it should get it quickly!). I don't think Smolensk should be yet another specialists site.
It must be fairly straightforward to get Smolensk to 28 base hammers. With 25% of forge and 50% of being industrious, IW can be built in 945/(28*1.75) = 19.3 turns. Of course we don't have 28 base yet, so it will be longer, but we can send all our workers there now. After IW it can build Manhattan really quicker than any other city. Even with those 28 base hammers (which could be more by then) it would be just 2025/(28*2.25)/2=16 turns (last division by 2 because of uranium). Any other city would need at least double or more turns to complete Manhattan so the investment of IW in Smolensk and then Manhattan pays off.
EDIT: come to think of it, this also gives more window in our research. We don't even need fission until Smolensk finishes IW...
I wouldn't count on the AIs to build Manhattan, if only because they are still at least 3 techs away, or more (physics, elec, fission and in some cases sci meth). And I wouldn't necessarily show them actively the way to fission... Apart from that they don't seem to be willing to trade much right now.
Agree that Mao is a likely target after Gandhi, but a lot of water has to go through the Volga still before we have to decide that.
Whosit
Entropic Knight
Sounds like a good plan, Norvin. Again, I wanna throw out there, see if you can snag us some more Barbarian Workers--we may want them to help clean up nuclear waste in the future.
Like nocho, I wouldn't really count on the AI to build the Manhattan Project. I also wouldn't want to give them Fission, because that's a step along the way for THEM to build nukes.
Smolensk . . . maybe. I guess I'll trust your math, nocho. If nothing else, getting the Iron Works now might benefit us more than in 100 turns when we get St. Pete back. But, how's the city on health? The Iron Works will add a lot of unhealth, right?
Like nocho, I wouldn't really count on the AI to build the Manhattan Project. I also wouldn't want to give them Fission, because that's a step along the way for THEM to build nukes.
Smolensk . . . maybe. I guess I'll trust your math, nocho. If nothing else, getting the Iron Works now might benefit us more than in 100 turns when we get St. Pete back. But, how's the city on health? The Iron Works will add a lot of unhealth, right?
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