SGOTM 10 - Team Liz

[Andronicus]

I was also thinking about giving Sumeria a GA assisted science boost.
Gaining a little territory, but not taking their most commerce productive cities would give us more territory to expand into (due to cultural pressure we wouild not want to hold cities 20 turns, better to raze). And hopefully get them to provide some more research assistance before we emerge into republic.
Honing our troops on Mayans during the 20 turn peace makes sense

 

[Redbad]

Better not grab Lagash then, as it a good city for Gil and it's building harmless stuff. Better get 1 or 2 of new autoraze cities. And the archer in the SW. I'll bring a warrior for attacking an Enkidu if we don't loose any horses.

 

[Paul#42]

Both opponents Maya and Sumeria are good opportunities for leader fishing. Mayas have no Iron (IIRC) and Sumeria will only build cheap Enkidus (spear replace, still available after starting their GA till Feud) so we will have lots of chances for easy wins. But do not start war at two fronts right now

I'd start on Sumeria, take one town, starve it or raze and replace. Let those move-1-units come, slaughter them. Make peace. Then Mayas the same for 20 turns. Let them come to us. Their towns are of small value for us.
EDIT: But in opposition to Andronicus and Redbad I would try to take out Sumeria soon to grab it's fertile land. Alsthough Sumeria in GA might be useful to research Currency, Construction, Poly or Lit...

I agree on first leader building an army. Imo we can fill two or even three units, because we won't need to ship them to another continent before Astronomy / Magnetism anyway.

We should stuff Cuzco (or another site) with workers soon to built courthouse and FP there fast. That's quite a balance act but I think it will pay off. Add like six workers, use a couple for short-rushing. At size 5 or 6 we can cope with unhappiness with two MP and a clown perhaps. Someone like to do the maths?

EDIT: And for the end of the Ancient Times I'd like to be prepared for some serious barb uprisings (which I was not in a recent Gotm... )

 

[Redbad]

Both opponents Maya and Sumeria are good opportunities for leader fishing. Mayas have no Iron (IIRC) and Sumeria will only build cheap Enkidus (spear replace, still available after starting their GA till Feud) so we will have lots of chances for easy wins. But do not start war at two fronts right now

I agree that we don't want to fight at two fronts at the same time. I proposed to start a war with Sumeria, let them start their GA, make peace, start war on Maya, take out Maya, start new war with Sumeria and reduce them to an OCC. The reason for not immediatly continue the war against Sumeria is that our army is still not very large and Sumeria can build (a lot of) Enkidu, but also horse and sword.
Maya on the other hand can not. They lack strategic resource, have an expensive UU and on a whole seem to be weaker.

Leaderfishing is a slow process in which many cheap units are slaughtered by superior troops. Enkidu are cheap, but I doubt Gil will throw them at us. He might very well have the Enkidu fortified in the cities and throw horsemen and swordsmen at us. In that situation taking him out with horses isn't trivial.

I don't know if the time is right for leaderfishing. Leaderfishing would leave the opponents economy intact. We however are at this stage I think, still in need for more land to help research. I estimate after knocking out Maya and Sumeria we could do leaderfarming against the Dutch and later the Byzantines.

We should stuff Cuzco (or another site) with workers soon to built courthouse and FP there fast. That's quite a balance act but I think it will pay off. Add like six workers, use a couple for short-rushing. At size 5 or 6 we can cope with unhappiness with two MP and a clown perhaps. Someone like to do the maths?

I agree, but like to throw in 3 forests first.

 

[Paul#42]

I would not play real leaderfarming but a slower attack as usual taking time to rest elite horses and trying to bait units out of towns. But also taking towns if opportunity is given.
But usually horses are too weak to take towns...
Should we send in 2-4 spears to occupy mountains and iron hills?

I agree, but like to throw in 3 forests first.

I did not have a look at the map, of course those tasks have highest priority...
Also IIRC the only (?) BG by Cuzco is irrigated. It needs mining more than other grassland tiles...

 

[Abegweit]

Once we've knocked out the AI I don't see how the barbs will have any serious research.

Agreed. I was using bombers as an illustration of how the AI has no hesitation to bombard armies. I never suggested that they might actually get any.

On the other hand I expect we have to get ourselfs marines. So we will have bombers if we want. I wouldn't be suprised if a major city of theirs is located in the middle of a lake. That would require airborne units to conquer it, wouldn't it?

I don't think so. That's just a gut feel based on the idea that this game has a theme - and the theme is MoWs. There two many many indicators. Of course, there is no way to know for sure until we actually go to battle. Mapping out Barbaralia would help. If it has lots of coast, that would mean that Gyathaar has prepared us a naval battle. If it's shaped like a ball, there's probably a surprise in the centre.

I don't fear the BGs. Even if they are superior we surely will vastly outnumber them with our troops. We have to take out all off barbaria, so cav-armies will be helpful... we have to be on the lookout for very productive city who can build us armies later.

I agree with this. Once the BGs have been thinned out (if not completely eliminated), armies will be very useful. Both our capital and our FP will be very productive - and both are inland. Let the coastal cities make MoW while the inland ones make armies.

 

[Abegweit]

I was thinking maybe the next would be a funny move. Attack Sumeria and when they get their GA make pace with them asap.

Next bring our troops to Maya. Their UU is three times more expensive then the one of Gilgamesh and not really a bigger threat. We could push for getting monarchy in a peace deal.

This strategy also has the advantage of pointing us in the right direction for further war. If we are planning on AE conquest, we really need to tackle the Dutch soon. Horses can take pikes, but Swiss Mercs are too much.

Once the Maya are taken out, we will be ready to fight on two fronts. Already, we are number 1 (well, 2 actually...) on all major indicators. In fact, don't discount the possibility of staying at war with Gil, especially if we get some happiness from it.

On that subject, we CAN get happiness from a Mayan war. They have two troops in our territory - and have had through all my turns. I don't think we should pass that up. The Mayan front is easily defensible too. Place the new city where I suggested. It's on a hill and should grab a third lux. Then goad then into war.

 

[Abegweit]

Also IIRC the only (?) BG by Cuzco is irrigated. It needs mining more than other grassland tiles...

There are two workers on that tile right now.

 

[Andronicus]

I've done some number crunching and I believe we can build a court in Cuzco in 4 turns, then put 50+ shields in the bin before the revolt with thr FP completing about 20 turns after revolt, maybe earlier.

Civassist reveals Cuzco in despo has 57% waste, but only 39% with court. In Republic it goes from 49 without to 35 with court
Can get court in 4 turns by
1) give Cuzco a mBG - 2 are being wasted on Reading and Leeds -> gets 2spt
2) put worker currently in Cuzco onto NE spice and commence chop - completes in 4 (can someone tell me which city chop will go to - if not Cuzco then that city needs to be put temporarily onto a wonder, or FP)
3) next turn there will then be 10 shields in box -> rush settler for another 20 shields, switch back to court - now pop 1.12 with 30 shields in box
4) also next turn 2 workers complete roads adj SW spices -> move to SE forest but dont start chop till following turn, completing 2 turns later
5) finally next turn 2 workers complete mining BG west of Cuzco -> move onto forest, start chop following turn so all 3 chops coincide
6) After 3 turns at size 1 Cuzco grows size 2 if used iFP, can then rush court (I think it will be after the forest chops are added otherwise needs delaying 1 turn and I am a turn out)
With court in place if workers are added to get to size 6 can work 3 mBGs and 3 mGrass giving 10spt before corruption and 6 after (I think) for the remaining 9 turns before revolt. Will req MPs and poss an extra pop for clown. Any larger and I doubt we will deal with whip unhappiness without upsetting our overal lux setting.

 

[Andronicus]

Just spent quite some time looking through cities and could find very little to suggest. P'raps we could consider rushing the harbour in Liverpool as this will speed growth.
Diplo screen reveals we can trade lux with Dutch so they must have a harbour, but no-one else. They will do a lux for lux deal if we throw in about 8gpt - not worth it IMO for meagre despot benefits and binds us to 20 turns of peace.

 

[Abegweit]

I've done some number crunching and I believe we can build a court in Cuzco in 4 turns.

Sounds good. Your math seems right to me. I think actually it is six turns to a court, though. It will take 5 turns for Cuzco to grow and one more for the second whip.

1) give Cuzco a mBG - 2 are being wasted on Reading and Leeds -> gets 2spt. 3) next turn there will then be 10 shields in box -> rush settler for another 20 shields, switch back to court - now pop 1.12 with 30 shields in box

Actually, it doesn't make any difference since the rush can take place one turn later and all other shields will be wasted. There is one very small benefit to your suggestion - it avoids the possibility of disease so, yes, take the BG from Leeds and give it to Cuzco.

2) put worker currently in Cuzco onto NE spice and commence chop - completes in 4 (can someone tell me which city chop will go to - if not Cuzco then that city needs to be put temporarily onto a wonder, or FP)

I'm pretty sure it's Reading and that Cuzco is number 2 - priority starts northeast of the forest and goes clockwise. But put both Reading and Leeds on wonders just to be sure.

4) also next turn 2 workers complete roads adj SW spices -> move to SE forest but dont start chop till following turn, completing 2 turns later
5) finally next turn 2 workers complete mining BG west of Cuzco -> move onto forest, start chop following turn so all 3 chops coincide

I don't understand why the chops have to coincide. Why do we have to waste the worker turns?

Edit: a detail - but an important one. I'm not sure which spice you want the worker at Cuzco to start chopping. In any case, it has 1 movement used up already so it has to go to the nearer one.

 

[Abegweit]

Just spent quite some time looking through cities and could find very little to suggest. P'raps we could consider rushing the harbour in Liverpool as this will speed growth.

Liverpool is currently our scientist. I did that because it only costs one food there. It is not yet connected to the capital so the whip will make it unhappy. Until this is fixed, a harbour will actually cost us two gpt with no gain (the one it is currently giving us plus the maintenance cost).

Diplo screen reveals we can trade lux with Dutch so they must have a harbour, but no-one else. They will do a lux for lux deal if we throw in about 8gpt - not worth it IMO for meagre despot benefits and binds us to 20 turns of peace.

The Harbour is in Utrecht. War with the Maya might break the deal too. We currently have a route to Holland on the south side but a new Mayan city by the deer would break it. Snatch the lux east of Machu Picchu instead.

 

[Andronicus]

It will take 5 turns for Cuzco to grow and one more for the second whip.

If use FP it will start fromn pop 1.12 after first whip, then will grow in 3

I'm pretty sure it's Reading and that Cuzco is number 2 - priority starts northeast of the forest and goes clockwise. But put both Reading and Leeds on wonders just to be sure.

Safest option

I don't understand why the chops have to coincide. Why do we have to waste the worker turns?

I tried typing you an answer then realised I dont understand why either . I thought I worked out it risked trying to rush a 50 or 70 shield build which we dont have but I realise that is a nonesense.

Too much , not enough

 

[Abegweit]

If use FP it will start fromn pop 1.12 after first whip, then will grow in 3

Right. Of course. So it's 5 turns, not 4 or 6. It remains switching to the BG right now won't make the process go faster. I did think of two other small benefits - a) one turn fewer of unhappiness b) if Leeds gets the FP for two turns, it grows faster.

 

[Abegweit]

I am coming to the conclusion that we don't really need, or even want, research partners. If we really do have two settler factories, we'll get sci/tax farms up really quick. The war against the barbs will be a long slog, no matter how we do it, and a couple of additional techs at the end of the AA won't change much. I expect the AI to get the last two techs anyway. We don't want them to get much more.

What we do need is to clean out this continent ASAP. For that we need to time the moment when the AI enters the next age. I really don't want to see feudalism out there and especially not in the hands of the Dutch. With that in mind, do you suppose we could convince them to join our war against the Maya? Maybe in exchange for that lux?

 

[Redbad]

Just another thought:
Down to the SE (where Australia would be ) there are some 8 islands. It just might be possible that the barbs don't poses a 1-tile island now, but will start to settle these islands in the nearby future. If we could prevent them settling the 3 1-tile islands, we then would have a huge advantage over the teams that don't.
What do you guys think of this?

 

[Paul#42]

Maybe in exchange for that lux?

I do not think we can offer that lux (at the beginning) because we won't have the trade route. Does a traderoute "need" enemy ships to be broken? I think cultural ownership of coastal tiles is sufficient (before astronomy), right?

 

[Paul#42]

What do you guys think of this?

great idea!

EDIT: Maybe we gift two of those to Gilgamesch and Theodora as final hideaway

EDIT: Otherwise we would have trouble eliminating them, too...
Rather give them some desert resort...

 

[Redbad]

I do not think we can offer that lux (at the beginning) because we won't have the trade route. Does a traderoute "need" enemy ships to be broken? I think cultural ownership of coastal tiles is sufficient (before astronomy), right?

I think so too, but couldn't the trade route go also through byzantine waters?

 

[Paul#42]

I think so too, but couldn't the trade route go also through byzantine waters?

At least we can not trash our reputation there unless Mayas capture dutch towns or land...