Our military still is not great. I did not check how we are compared to them, but I thought if we can get an alliance with Thea Gil might keep his units there, otherwise he will move them back home through our territory. At the end of the war there were just a few units coming from his lands. That must have been the freshly produced units. Our borders towards Thea are still weak. If we rush a few units I think we could cope with Gil's units there. Important will be to take Sumer and Lagash soon in a war as there are Gil's iron supplies. If we take these ressources out within 2 - 3 turns he will not be able to build any significant numbers of pikes and MDIs and we will just face enkidus, archers and horsemen. Furthermore he will lose 2 important productive cities.
SGOTM 10 - Team Liz
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Andronicus
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markh said:
I note Lagash is defended by Enkindo - this surprises me as Gil has had Feud a while now (5 turns) I would anticipate fighting pikes very soon, so horses may be of limited value. At least we should now be able to outproduce Gil with units
Redbad
should have shaved
I agree with Andronicus at stopping building workers. We already have 54 native workers. I suggest switching some to settler and some having scientists and building wealth or a harbour or a settler but no workers. Our unit supply is already 56 gpt and will increase furhter as our army grows.
I must admit I rather have horses then catapults or trebs. They're so stupid slow.
I miss a Leo's prebuild. Even London say he will do 36 turns on SunTzu. I suggest to set London to it.
Thea traded with Gil and we can get Mono straight up for 900 gold. I suggest we trade for mono after invention and full on to Astronomy. I prefer research speed over increasing number of workers. I'm also in favour in declaring war on Thea or Gil right after the Mono deal. It will help increase out land, slow down our growing unit support and gives new chances at leaders. We have to maintain our sense of urgency.
btw I don't like paying 6 gpt for the archers.
I must admit I rather have horses then catapults or trebs. They're so stupid slow.
I miss a Leo's prebuild. Even London say he will do 36 turns on SunTzu. I suggest to set London to it.
Thea traded with Gil and we can get Mono straight up for 900 gold. I suggest we trade for mono after invention and full on to Astronomy. I prefer research speed over increasing number of workers. I'm also in favour in declaring war on Thea or Gil right after the Mono deal. It will help increase out land, slow down our growing unit support and gives new chances at leaders. We have to maintain our sense of urgency.
btw I don't like paying 6 gpt for the archers.
As I stopped at the beginning of the turn I did not mm our empire as I think we have a decision to make how to continue as Thea and Gil signed peace now. Gil will start to move back his units next IBT. If we want to strike him soon I think it is better for the next player to move the units.
Andronicus
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No problem mark - I did note you saying that at the end of your log. My comments were more directed at how I think now is the time to be getting our science farms up and running and my illustration of improving the MM merely to demonstrate the effectiveness of scientists in these corrupt towns.markh said:
These will become even more powerful as more and more corrupt towns can support 2 or even 3 scientists
btw building settlers rather than workers causes less pop loss (2 per 30 turns v 1 per 10 turns) in these towns having less effect on scientist support.
Redbad
should have shaved
I wouldn't worry much on how strong we are compared to an AI. It is only important for estimating the chances of them attacking us. We can defeate an AI who's twice our military strength, just because we're human and have a notion of tactics. If we attack when we're equal or strong compared to an AI we will have wasted time.
I wouldn't worry much about our weakly defended border with Thea. There are mostly corrupt towns there. If some get threatend we can rush a pike or have them capture 1 or 2. It isn't really important is it? At least it is less harmful then posponing the war because of them.
I wouldn't worry much about our weakly defended border with Thea. There are mostly corrupt towns there. If some get threatend we can rush a pike or have them capture 1 or 2. It isn't really important is it? At least it is less harmful then posponing the war because of them.
now maybe 
results in being : UP
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
The upcoming war
Gil has no cities! He also does not appear to have many pikes, if at all. This implies that we should attack with horses, not the more expensive and slower MDIs. Horses are also better at taking out his units in our core and whatever ones may appear from his cities to the south and east. Thus, as far as possible, switch military builds from MDI to Horsemen. The MDI will be useful for taking down Constantinople and the city to the north
Taking out his iron is also a priority. I suggest therefore a two-pronged attack. One on Lagash with horses and the other on Sumer-on-a-hill with MDI. Next move and take out the iron west of Lagash if it is still on Sumerian soil. Then move on with more. Our current force of horses in Portsmouth is sufficient to take Lagash. A couple more MDI are needed for the attack on Lagash. Those moving into position are sufficient.
Switch all military builds to horses, except London where it would waste shields. These will move up to the front as re-inforcements.
About workers
I disagree that we have too many. There are far too many unimproved tiles being worked. In this regard, I note wasted worker moves yet again. There are three workers roading a single tile north of Brighton. Each one could have been sent to separate hills and then combine for the mining. While this is not as bad as some previous examples, it needs to stop. Also, people need to stop defending this practice. It is wrong.
It is also true that we have too many under construction. I suggest letting those near the core finish theirs. Specifically, Ollantaytambo, Birmingham, Richmond, Manchester, Reading and Portmouth. Those further to the east can switch to settlers.
Leo's
I agree that we need to start it now. I suggest placing it in Coventry however. This soon will be our most powerful city, easily able to do 20 SPT so it will be able to compensate later for the lack of production ATM. In the meantime, London can pump out units. Two-turn horsies would be nice. We need more of those.
MM
The core needs extensive MM and will likely to continue to do so each turn. Please invest the time necessary. As Andronicus noted, taxmen should never be employed except on the last turn of research. I also agree that we should not use 1 food tiles in the boonies.
Various cities
York needs to finish its aqueduct and quit wasting food. Give it the hill from London this turn. Similarly, London's Iron should go to Coventry.
Oxford also needs an aqueduct. Short-rush this one with a library. Then it will build nicely on its own.
Nottingham: another aqueduct. Move the taxman to the water. More efficient.
Newcastle, Machu Picchu and Cambridge should make settlers. Yes it will waste 2 shields in Cambridge.
Gil has no cities! He also does not appear to have many pikes, if at all. This implies that we should attack with horses, not the more expensive and slower MDIs. Horses are also better at taking out his units in our core and whatever ones may appear from his cities to the south and east. Thus, as far as possible, switch military builds from MDI to Horsemen. The MDI will be useful for taking down Constantinople and the city to the north
Taking out his iron is also a priority. I suggest therefore a two-pronged attack. One on Lagash with horses and the other on Sumer-on-a-hill with MDI. Next move and take out the iron west of Lagash if it is still on Sumerian soil. Then move on with more. Our current force of horses in Portsmouth is sufficient to take Lagash. A couple more MDI are needed for the attack on Lagash. Those moving into position are sufficient.
Switch all military builds to horses, except London where it would waste shields. These will move up to the front as re-inforcements.
About workers
I disagree that we have too many. There are far too many unimproved tiles being worked. In this regard, I note wasted worker moves yet again. There are three workers roading a single tile north of Brighton. Each one could have been sent to separate hills and then combine for the mining. While this is not as bad as some previous examples, it needs to stop. Also, people need to stop defending this practice. It is wrong.
It is also true that we have too many under construction. I suggest letting those near the core finish theirs. Specifically, Ollantaytambo, Birmingham, Richmond, Manchester, Reading and Portmouth. Those further to the east can switch to settlers.
Leo's
I agree that we need to start it now. I suggest placing it in Coventry however. This soon will be our most powerful city, easily able to do 20 SPT so it will be able to compensate later for the lack of production ATM. In the meantime, London can pump out units. Two-turn horsies would be nice. We need more of those.
MM
The core needs extensive MM and will likely to continue to do so each turn. Please invest the time necessary. As Andronicus noted, taxmen should never be employed except on the last turn of research. I also agree that we should not use 1 food tiles in the boonies.
Various cities
York needs to finish its aqueduct and quit wasting food. Give it the hill from London this turn. Similarly, London's Iron should go to Coventry.
Oxford also needs an aqueduct. Short-rush this one with a library. Then it will build nicely on its own.
Nottingham: another aqueduct. Move the taxman to the water. More efficient.
Newcastle, Machu Picchu and Cambridge should make settlers. Yes it will waste 2 shields in Cambridge.
yet.
The upcoming war
Agree on horses (instead of MI) and attack plan on Gil.
However I don't understand why you mixed in remarks about taking Constantinople - would you like a two-front-war?
About workers
I agree we are building too many right now and could rather use some more settlers to found fishing towns to increase research and decrease unit support.
I disagree with your flat criticism on worker use. If a worker already walked two tiles and then ends on an unroaded tile another worker is working (or is about to work), it is not a wastage if he stops there to assist (Unless worker turns are wasted during production). Even better if he has walked two roaded tiles and helps improving the second tile which even gains worker's effeciency.
Of course it is helpful to plan those moves thoroughly but as Redbad pointed out earlier, it is not as crucial as it was in the first 50 turns.
Leo's
I will decide that after the first two turns of the attack.
Agree on horses (instead of MI) and attack plan on Gil.
However I don't understand why you mixed in remarks about taking Constantinople - would you like a two-front-war?
About workers
I agree we are building too many right now and could rather use some more settlers to found fishing towns to increase research and decrease unit support.
I disagree with your flat criticism on worker use. If a worker already walked two tiles and then ends on an unroaded tile another worker is working (or is about to work), it is not a wastage if he stops there to assist (Unless worker turns are wasted during production). Even better if he has walked two roaded tiles and helps improving the second tile which even gains worker's effeciency.
Of course it is helpful to plan those moves thoroughly but as Redbad pointed out earlier, it is not as crucial as it was in the first 50 turns.
Leo's
I will decide that after the first two turns of the attack.
Andronicus
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After reading a post by vmxa in SG (Husky 01) last night, I am worried by the upcoming war with Gil.
We are in the situation of looking to invade Gil on our NE front whilst he has many troops in our midst.
I dont know how many but from the large numbers I saw during my turn set, I suspect he may have 20 or more units in those southern mountains. Horses will be useless against swords and enkindo on mountains and they will be able to attack us west, north or east. Sure we might only lose a few corrupt towns, but that will give WW affecting our research pace. For all the discussion on saving a few worker turns by not stacking, how many worker turns will be lost if we have to move off swamps and jungles part cleared or hill (eg Coventry's gold hill) part mined? Worse if we lose workers and have mines etc pillaged. We could easily lose dozens of worker turns.
Why are we going after Gil right now?
vmxa said:
We are in the situation of looking to invade Gil on our NE front whilst he has many troops in our midst.
I dont know how many but from the large numbers I saw during my turn set, I suspect he may have 20 or more units in those southern mountains. Horses will be useless against swords and enkindo on mountains and they will be able to attack us west, north or east. Sure we might only lose a few corrupt towns, but that will give WW affecting our research pace. For all the discussion on saving a few worker turns by not stacking, how many worker turns will be lost if we have to move off swamps and jungles part cleared or hill (eg Coventry's gold hill) part mined? Worse if we lose workers and have mines etc pillaged. We could easily lose dozens of worker turns.
Why are we going after Gil right now?
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Not immediately. Late in your turns or early in mine... perhaps. I was just observing that MDIs are better used to take down Theo's big cities than Gil's scattered town. IOW, we don't need them now but we might 8-15 turns from now.Paul#42 said:The upcoming warI don't understand why you mixed in remarks about taking Constantinople - would you like a two-front-war?
We are building too many. However, at the same time, we don't have enough. There's a balance to be had.
Umm. I'm not sure where my criticism was "flat". I am not against putting more one worker on the same unroaded square especially if, as you say, the second one has no place better to go. I do not believe that this was the case here. I especially cannot understand putting 12 workers on any on unroaded tile. That can never be right.
The first 1-3 turns need to be planned in every detail. After that, it's up to the guy with the mouse. This being said, constructive criticism is alway useful. That's how we learn.
Given that you have the mouse, you undoubtedly will. Are you saying that, if things go badly you might decide delay Leo's by a turn or two? Fair 'nuff. OTOH, the choice of where to build it (or whether?) is a long-time strategic decision. As such, it needs to be decided by the team.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
You don't invade until you are ready to get rid of the varmints in your midst. We are about one turn from being ready to take them out (maybe two. Maybe none). The alternative is to let the AI attack you at a moment of its choosing. While it's not as bad now as it was when Mark stopped to talk, if Gil decided to attack right now, we would be seriously hurt.Andronicus said:
Declare war when you can clean out the danger. Move to the attack when the danger has been eliminated. I do not like AI troops in our territory with tons of utterly defenceless cities.
Because there is no other danger. The rest can be taken out at our leisure.
Andronicus
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What are our goals?
Ultimately it is to destroy the barbies ASAP
To do that we need an army (cavalry) and transport (caravel).
This requires
Research - Invention (can be done in 2 with heavy scientist usage), Theology, Education, Astronomy for caravels, Gunpowder (which AI may research while we do top of tree - or is Thea more likely to do Theology whilst we do bottom of tree?), Chemistry, Metallurgy & Mil Trad for cavs. We probably have 6 techs to self research after Invention taking possibly 35-40 turns form now (less if we can get our GA).
Productive core - we need to be able to build units to transport and fight
Leo's - allowing mass upgrade of horses to cavs
GA - this will assist production and, if early enough, research (if not then commerce boost will help upgrades or short rushing)
- to get GA we need to capture Constantinople prior to building Leo's
What does war with Gil give us?
1) More territory for science farms - but I can see over 20 sites for future cities (a quick go on dot map doesnt include any S of Berwick, those near Bill are of dubious value). We only need those science farms for about 40 turns, so I dont see us being able to use all sites
2) Get him before he gets us. I admit this is an issue, but if all we are doing is positioning our troops defensively I believe we can cover him, but not if most of our troops are taking Lagash and Sumer.
3) Leader farming. This is an important aspect of having a strong enough army to fight BGs. Currently I can only find 3 elites - these need to be used to attack injured units in the open not in first wave attack - that leaves us thin on attacking Lagash - more so if they upgrade and / or build a pike (never mind growing size 6 to 7). Either Bill or Thea are less dangerous targets for war.
edit - a dot map of sorts
Ultimately it is to destroy the barbies ASAP
To do that we need an army (cavalry) and transport (caravel).
This requires
Research - Invention (can be done in 2 with heavy scientist usage), Theology, Education, Astronomy for caravels, Gunpowder (which AI may research while we do top of tree - or is Thea more likely to do Theology whilst we do bottom of tree?), Chemistry, Metallurgy & Mil Trad for cavs. We probably have 6 techs to self research after Invention taking possibly 35-40 turns form now (less if we can get our GA).
Productive core - we need to be able to build units to transport and fight
Leo's - allowing mass upgrade of horses to cavs
GA - this will assist production and, if early enough, research (if not then commerce boost will help upgrades or short rushing)
- to get GA we need to capture Constantinople prior to building Leo's
What does war with Gil give us?
1) More territory for science farms - but I can see over 20 sites for future cities (a quick go on dot map doesnt include any S of Berwick, those near Bill are of dubious value). We only need those science farms for about 40 turns, so I dont see us being able to use all sites
2) Get him before he gets us. I admit this is an issue, but if all we are doing is positioning our troops defensively I believe we can cover him, but not if most of our troops are taking Lagash and Sumer.
3) Leader farming. This is an important aspect of having a strong enough army to fight BGs. Currently I can only find 3 elites - these need to be used to attack injured units in the open not in first wave attack - that leaves us thin on attacking Lagash - more so if they upgrade and / or build a pike (never mind growing size 6 to 7). Either Bill or Thea are less dangerous targets for war.
edit - a dot map of sorts
Andronicus
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I think you seriously underestimate the strength of Gil's army in the mountainous region. During my turns I watched as many units poured across our territory during Gil's GA. The bigger threat to us is not the units we can see in our territory (I agree we can take these out now), its the ones in the south.Abegweit said:
edit
Perhaps if mark would like to comment as he observed Gil's units more recently than me and my concerns may be coloured by my feeling utterly helpless whilst in anarchy.
Andronicus
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I suggest we dont have to go after anyone now, we can build up our forces and with our superior production base we will soon tip the balance. I believe we are at less of a danger with our forces arrayed defensively rather than most involved in attacking Gil with only a small contingent to face the main body of his army.Abegweit said:
edit
If we dont go to immed war we can afford more effort into boosting core.
If we do go immediate war then it will be important to spend big on military to make it decisive. As many towns as poss should be 10spt and after first turn should shortrush either horse for MDI or archer (or walls) for horse. I think some immed MDI to counter the forces in southern regions would be prudent.
Andronicus
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On the question of research. Would we be best to research bottom of tech tree to cavs whilst AI hopefully does some of top, or should we go top of tree hoping AI does Guns?
Andronicus
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OK I've given some thought to what could be an alternative to dowing Gil now
Suggestion
Maximise science with lots of scientists -> invention in 2, gun in ?7, chem in ? 13, metal in ? 19, cavs in ? 25 or 26 - certainly less than 30
Meanwhile
1) short rush units to achieve rapidly ability to counter any sneak attack by Gil and get our army strength up to average compared to his (which decreases liklihood of attack)
2) switch to some libs in core to speed research to cavs, as near cavs switch to some markets to fund upgrades
Push Leo's as fast as poss in Coventry and FP in Cuzco (req mining of hills south of Coventry and FP can be sped by adding a couple of workers)
- should be able to get Leos in about 30-35 turns
Just prior to getting Leo's get our newly minted cavs to pay Thea a visit nabbing Collosus and ensuring Leo's sparks our GA
This should give us GA to boost final research of whatever upper tree techs still required (? edu + astronomy) whilst pushing rapid production of cavs to take over our continent and then sail over to barbie land in about 40 to 45 turns from now. The rate limiting factor in the above appears to be how rapidly we can build Leo's and how soonm we can research cavs.
Advantages of this strategy is we will be attacking with far superior troops reducing chance of WW from dragged out war. AI is likely to aid research if peace abounds - I would anticipate it researching Theology, esp if we sell Invention. We can push science more once our troops are sufficient to discourage Gil from attacking.
Disadvantage - we risk Gil striking at us first.
I'm sure others will see other pluses or minuses to above, but I think we should at least consider the alternatives to dowing Gil now
Suggestion
Maximise science with lots of scientists -> invention in 2, gun in ?7, chem in ? 13, metal in ? 19, cavs in ? 25 or 26 - certainly less than 30
Meanwhile
1) short rush units to achieve rapidly ability to counter any sneak attack by Gil and get our army strength up to average compared to his (which decreases liklihood of attack)
2) switch to some libs in core to speed research to cavs, as near cavs switch to some markets to fund upgrades
Push Leo's as fast as poss in Coventry and FP in Cuzco (req mining of hills south of Coventry and FP can be sped by adding a couple of workers)
- should be able to get Leos in about 30-35 turns
Just prior to getting Leo's get our newly minted cavs to pay Thea a visit nabbing Collosus and ensuring Leo's sparks our GA
This should give us GA to boost final research of whatever upper tree techs still required (? edu + astronomy) whilst pushing rapid production of cavs to take over our continent and then sail over to barbie land in about 40 to 45 turns from now. The rate limiting factor in the above appears to be how rapidly we can build Leo's and how soonm we can research cavs.
Advantages of this strategy is we will be attacking with far superior troops reducing chance of WW from dragged out war. AI is likely to aid research if peace abounds - I would anticipate it researching Theology, esp if we sell Invention. We can push science more once our troops are sufficient to discourage Gil from attacking.
Disadvantage - we risk Gil striking at us first.
I'm sure others will see other pluses or minuses to above, but I think we should at least consider the alternatives to dowing Gil now
Redbad
should have shaved
My view on the situation:
I'm in favour of continueing to war. I think we need a leader asap badly and preferly more then 1. I don't fear Gil. Aside for some aquaducts and harbours there's little else to build but settlers and military. Shortly we'll outproduce Gil by miles, and we have a notion of tactics.
I agree that it is very handy to have some MI in the mountains. Andronicus is right that we neither can use horsemen offensive nor defensive against swordsmen in the mountains. Later those MI can be deployed against Constantinople.
I rather research the upper tech branch first. It gives us a chance to scout the whereabouts of Dr Evil and I think it times better with Leo's. We could even establish a beachhead using horse or MI if that proves to be in order. Btw. I think we need navigation as well for sailing the earth, or am I mistaken?
I continue to think we have enough workers and don't like to pay an extra 2 coins per turn for every additional one. Some tiles have priority in improving yes, but improving every tile isn't a priority. So I'd say 50 odd native workers are enough to handle our improving needs.
And I do get tired discussing how to deploy those workers. For those enjoying the game most when being efficient with each worker, do so by all means. For those attaching less value on that aspect, deploy them in the manner you like them.
I'm in favour of continueing to war. I think we need a leader asap badly and preferly more then 1. I don't fear Gil. Aside for some aquaducts and harbours there's little else to build but settlers and military. Shortly we'll outproduce Gil by miles, and we have a notion of tactics.
I agree that it is very handy to have some MI in the mountains. Andronicus is right that we neither can use horsemen offensive nor defensive against swordsmen in the mountains. Later those MI can be deployed against Constantinople.
I rather research the upper tech branch first. It gives us a chance to scout the whereabouts of Dr Evil and I think it times better with Leo's. We could even establish a beachhead using horse or MI if that proves to be in order. Btw. I think we need navigation as well for sailing the earth, or am I mistaken?
I continue to think we have enough workers and don't like to pay an extra 2 coins per turn for every additional one. Some tiles have priority in improving yes, but improving every tile isn't a priority. So I'd say 50 odd native workers are enough to handle our improving needs.
And I do get tired discussing how to deploy those workers. For those enjoying the game most when being efficient with each worker, do so by all means. For those attaching less value on that aspect, deploy them in the manner you like them.
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