SGOTM 10 - Team Liz

[Andronicus]

re further war with Gil - WW will hit as has not worn off, so I suggest waiting till we have cavs so it will be short and sweet

 

[Abegweit]

I have no worry at all about beating Constantinople to Leo's. Don't even worry. We are far ahead. They have barely started it. There's a reason why the city is defended by vet pikes. Even if they, by some amazing happenstance. managed to win the race, who cares? Just take it from them.

As far as Nott is concerned, I was just curious about where the unhappiness came from. There is no problem dealing with it.

Re: chivalry. We definitely do not want to learn it. Probably not ever.

 

[Andronicus]

I have no worry at all about beating Constantinople to Leo's. Don't even worry. We are far ahead. They have barely started it. There's a reason why the city is defended by vet pikes. Even if they, by some amazing happenstance. managed to win the race, who cares? Just take it from them.

You misunderstand me
If we take Constantinople after we build Leo's we will not get our GA until MoW's. Building Leo's ourselves after capturing Constantinople's Colossus will give us a perfectly timed GA for lots of cavs quickly

 

[Paul#42]

Great progress!!

I'm glad to see the mess I left for you could be turned into a well managed empire. Good effort!

Can't wait to get home from work to see something - could anyone post some pictures?

 

[Abegweit]

If we take Constantinople after we build Leo's we will not get our GA until MoW's. Building Leo's ourselves after capturing Constantinople's Colossus will give us a perfectly timed GA for lots of cavs quickly

I don't see any problem with with waiting for MoWs. The barb seas are swarming with galleys so our transports will require escorts. The caravel they took out was jumped by 5 galleys. The RNG wasn't very good so the second got the kill - but it never had a chance.

WRT timing of our GA, I think we should wait for factories. Not sure. We still have plenty of work on the home continent. Time for barbs later.

 

[Andronicus]

Not sure I agree with you Abegweit
If it is possible to take over Barbaria with cavs then transporting them with stacked caravels (one empty) will be safe and we can then conquor barbaria without waiting for IA. This competition will be won by earliest conquest of Barbaria, if early cav conquest is possible then this is the way to go. If we are going cav conquest then stopping research and using commerce and tax farms to rush cavs (esp if helped by GA) should allow us to overwhelm Barbaria with superior numbers (and since when do we need superior numbers to defeat AI?). Already without GA we outproduce Barbaria - how can it possibly compete with us when cash rushing / shortrushing? The only snag is BGs and if we are correct in our assumption that they donmt move then we will have a swarm of cavs to overun them by the time we have razed rest of Barbaria.
I am happy to be convinced we should do otherwise, but would want to hear a convincing argument for delaying 4 techs to IA then 2 more to Industrialisation. In those 25-30 turns we could have our GA and produced / bought dozens of extra cavs to have already largely over-run Barbaria
I think this needs team discussion as decision on whether to capture Constantinople before London's wonder build rests on which tack we take.

 

[Paul#42]

I second Andronicus.

Our main strength is early military power. We placed our bets on military plus rapid expansion and we would definitely lose to the teams with priority on research if we wait for Magnetism / Industrialization. I think to try an early attack with ~10-20 stacked ships and ~30-60 cavs is the way that fits our strategy.

This is quite a risk as a failure would hurt us big time but imo this decision was taken long ago.

In my Gotms I tend to change these long term strategy very often, I get nice Jasons but lousy victory dates. There's no award for a nice Jason in this SGotm.

 

[Abegweit]

Well, I did say I wasn't sure... OK. I'm convinced now.

Some thoughts:

Oxford, Nottingham and York all need to go on full-time caravel duty. York should finish its market first. We might consider switching the other two, in particular Oxford, immediately.

A priority for Red's turns has to be getting new cities up ASAP. Attached are two dot maps for 23 new cities. A 24th fits between The Mumbles and Constantinople (not shown). As I said in my report, four cities have to be moved. Net gain: 20.

If we are not going into the IA then our rep isn't important. However, I see little point in attacking the Dutch. Bad lands and tough defenders. Similarly, it will be hard to take on the Sumerians unless they attack first due to WW. Once the peace treaty is over, it will be well worth it though, even if we have already started on the Barb campaign at the same time.

Taking Constantinople w/o cavs will be hard. There are two vet pikes there and at least three regs. I don't like the idea of building any more MDIs. Maybe starve them down with combat cities (which we want for our farms anyway) and pillaging? Combat cities should take out 2 flood plains and the lambs, which would have to hurt. We could also consider delaying Leo's. By changing the builds, it could be slowed by up to five turns. I'm not very hot on this idea though.

Edit: changed SE map to add a couple of cities. Another could be had by moving Heraclea but the benefit in a plains region is minimal. Note that I am now proposing to move Varna too.

 

[Abegweit]

Pics for Paul. Barbaralia, London and the Front.

There were a lot of units running up and down the Barb roads, although nothing near Sid level. It lloks to me like we should establish our base somewhere south of this point. I imagine that BS is to the north.

 

[Andronicus]

More pics for Paul

This is my suggestion for safe crossing

Caravel return empty finishing at point "load here", they load up
Next turn caravels can reach other continent and unload -> any attacking galleys will be attacking empty caravels

I dont know why barb galleys are ending turn on sea tiles unless TT also has GLH effects (note, they are militaristic and seafaring), anyway they cannot enter ocean tiles so we are safe on our side until they get astronomy.

I think we want a town at the landing point ASAP so we have somewhere to strike out from - rushed walls and rax might be in order, hopefully razing surrounding cities will negate need for rushing culture

 

[Andronicus]

With respect to London
note it is 26spt and by swapping forest for hill currently being used by Canterbury it reaches the magical 27spt for 3 turn cavs. Even better in GA (if my calculations are correct) it gains 13 shields giving it 40spt and 2 turn cavs

EDIT civassist reveals wasting 23 tiles at current rate, if shift to 27spt will complete in 9 turns with 6 wastage

 

[Abegweit]

I dont know why barb galleys are ending turn on sea tiles unless TT also has GLH effects

Ahhh. That explains it.

I really don't like your proposed landing site, at least not for our initial attack. That looks like a prime slaughter zone to me. I would suggest something far away from their core. Let them come to us. Once we've drawn the troops away...

With this in mind, what about a two-pronged attack? Land about a dozen troops in the south as a diversion. Two turns later, the main force hits your beach.

 

[Abegweit]

With respect to London
note it is 26spt and by swapping forest for hill currently being used by Canterbury it reaches the magical 27spt for 3 turn cavs. Even better in GA (if my calculations are correct) it gains 13 shields giving it 40spt and 2 turn cavs

There's a lot of irrigation to remove, especially around Cuzco. Very important to getting value out of our GA.

 

[Paul#42]

Thanks for all those colorful pics

Changes my monotonous working day quite a lot

I like the fact that we can carry our units quickly, yet I also don't like the suggested landing zone. I'd prefer some mountain or at least hills.
I would also love to know, what the land to the north is like, it does not look so crowded. Is it connected to the main Barbie Island? Maybe we should send another galley over with 2-3 (sacrifice) units to test?

To take Constantinople: How many MIs and LBs do we have available? With 6+ I'd say, try again immediately. With 5- I'd delay Leo's for two turns after getting MT. Have a combat settler to get our horses in range (just in case), send MIs in striking range, upgrade 4-5 to cavs in Varna (though it hurts without Leo's - but our GA will pay back soon).

..and pray it does not flip before we get Leo's...

 

[Abegweit]

To take Constantople: How many MIs and LBs do we have available? With 6+ I'd say, try again, with 5-

We have five. Three are in the north though.

upgrade 4-5 to cavs in Varna (though it hurts without Leo's - but our GA will pay back soon).

cavs could also be made with pre-builds.

 

[Andronicus]

@ Abegweit
re your dotmap
you assume we will be at war with Bill since one site is in Dutch teritory
Your site W of Chicken Itza needs moving NE as current site adjacent Ipswich
There is an alternative to moving Chicken Itza and that is growing to size 11 where it can support 5 specialists using 6 tiles - I favour this option.
I agree with moving Bath and Yaxchilan, but wouldnt make an issue on moving Varna as again it can grow bigger .
The guiding principle should be to use every 3fpt or more tile to help support a specialist.
3fpt = 0.5 specialist, 4fpt = 1 specialist etc (in addition to 1 specialist each town can support from scratch)

 

[Paul#42]

We have five. Three are in the north though.

Then it's a clear decision imo.

cavs could also be made with pre-builds.

But not too far away from Constantinopel - It should be able to strike the second turn, that makes the longest distance 14 tiles on the road to the border (2x9 minus 1 tile Byzanz and 1/3 move to attack).

 

[Abegweit]

you assume we will be at war with Bill since one site is in Dutch teritory

Is there a problem with this? It's certainly not the first site to settle though.

Your site W of Chicken Itza needs moving NE as current site adjacent Ipswich. There is an alternative to moving Chicken Itza and that is growing to size 11 where it can support 5 specialists using 6 tiles - I favour this option.

Yep. Slight mistake in the map. Sorry. Is there not a problem with happiness at size 11?

I agree with moving Bath and Yaxchilan, but wouldnt make an issue on moving Varna as again it can grow bigger.

Good point about Varna. I agree. Smyrna also needs to move.

 

[Paul#42]

With all those city movements ahaed, remember it only takes a size-1-town to build a "final" settler. Just in case we have an odd-sized-town to move...

 

[Andronicus]

I'm not convinced that the 3 MDI near Constantinople cant do enough damage to allow a stack of horses to complete the takeover of Constantinople. Anyway thats my 2 cents. I would go for Constantinople as soon as units healed - bringing all avail horses down to assist.

Re happiness issues at size 11 - I'm not sure but remember 5 will be spacialists