SGOTM 10 - Team Liz

[Abegweit]

With all those city movements ahaed, remember it only takes a size-1-town to build a "final" settler. Just in case we have an odd-sized-town to move...

This is news to me. Good stuff. I always thought it had to be size 2.

I'm not convinced that the 3 MDI near Constantinople cant do enough damage to allow a stack of horses to complete the takeover of Constantinople. Anyway thats my 2 cents. I would go for Constantinople as soon as units healed - bringing all avail horses down to assist.

I personally would attempt to starve it out first, but the final call is Redbad's - and I somehow think that he is on your side. I've got Gotm55 open right now so I can't look at the save... but, IIRC, there are only two in the area.

 

[Redbad]

Got it. I'm a bit busy so it'll take another day.
However at first sight and wrt our mission I'm in favour of:
-speeding up Leo
-capturing Constantinople with present military
-no hostilities towards Bill and possibly Gil
On a tactical base I would say it's getting time to switch from emphasing growth to emphasizing military might.

 

[Redbad]

Although we have our differences Abegweit, I must say you've done an excellent turnset. You achieved the same as what I intended but on a more "expansion" base. So

 

[Abegweit]

Got it. I'm a bit busy so it'll take another day.
However at first sight and wrt our mission I'm in favour of:
-speeding up Leo
-capturing Constantinople with present military
-no hostilities towards Bill and possibly Gil

I KNEW you would go that way. Your call. Take it away!

On a tactical base I would say it's getting time to switch from emphasing growth to emphasizing military might.

There is no reason to make a choice. The core needs a few markets. After that only military. Caravels are probably the most important ATM.

As for growth, the boonies can take care of their own. Cash-rushing cities is VERY profitable and will have paid for itself several times over before the game gets back to you. You are planning at taking some shots at the barbs yourself. Aren't you?

 

[Abegweit]

Although we have our differences Abegweit, I must say you've done an excellent turnset. You achieved the same as what I intended but on a more "expansion" base. So

Thank you.

I want to say that I have learned a lot from you in this game. I never fully understood the value of early war, or how powerful horsemen really are. It's a lesson I have taken to heart and I have already learnt to be more aggressive.

Also, your strategic vision has been excellent right from the beginning. If we really are leading this little quest, you deserve most of the credit. From your excellent start (although Andronicus and I had something to do it ) to your consistently accurate choices of target, you have been the brains behind our little group.

As for me, I'm not the greatest strategist nor the best warmonger. I'm a builder at heart and what I know best is empire management. If I can give you a few tips in that department, it will have been a mutually profitable exercise.

In that regard, please don't neglect to build those cities

 

[Abegweit]

EDIT civassist reveals wasting 23 tiles at current rate, if shift to 27spt will complete in 9 turns with 6 wastage

I just noticed this edit. I was more concerned with optimising the cities around it. I was happy enough with London's pace and don't see any reason to complete it early. As it is, I suspect the better option might be to switch to 25 and give the additional shields to other cities, wasting 3 shields and still finishing in 10. I suppose that's Redbad's call though. Just pointing out the alternative.

 

[Andronicus]

Just checking out the wonder situation and quite a few civs are building either Sun Tzu's or Leo's. I had to go back a long way through posts and old saves to find when these builds were started.
Constantinople began GLib 510BC (38 turns)
Ur began GLib 450BC (35 turns incl 15 in GA!)
Barb Stronghold 130BC (19 turns)
Amsterdam ? 50AD (max 10 turns)
Bad-tibira 110BC (18 turns)
Rotterdam ? (11-20 turns)
Chanca ? (max 10 turns)
London 190BC (22 turns)
We cant check on Constantinople nor Barb Stronghold, but Ur could also be a concern even though only size 5.
Whilst we can capture anything built in Constantinople or Ur, it would be a nuisance to have to wait till we captured Ur before being able to do our upgrades

 

[Abegweit]

Constantinople did not switch from the GLib to Leo's. There was an interim period. Otherwise, I would have taken down the city as easily as I did Andrianopolis. Furthermore, while it's not in my notes, I do quite clearly remember that it was not making any wonder when I tried to take it.

Ur might indeed be a concern. I have checked through my saves and from what I can see it might well have switched from GL to Leo's. It's a long way back. Paul? Mark? Do you know?

Edit: previous edit was talking.

 

[Andronicus]

Well the 1000BC quick save stats are out

Things I glean from it

- only 2 teams (A Team & Smurkz) appear to have done rep slingshot
- we did very well with early workers (14, next best 12) and REX (most towns, most pop)
- along with klarius we built 3 granaries, klarius also built 3 harbours
- we were one of only a few teams to be massing horsemen, some others were building swords

- it has little relevance to what we must do next

 

[Andronicus]

Constantinople did not switch from the GLib to Leo's. There was an interim period. Otherwise, I would have taken down the city as easily as I did Andrianopolis. Furthermore, while it's not in my notes, I do quite clearly remember that it was not making any wonder when I tried to take it.

Ur might indeed be a concern. I have checked through my saves and from what I can see it might well have switched from GL to Leo's. It's a long way back. Paul? Mark? Do you know?

Edit: if what you say about London and BS is true, we are going to lose. Thoughts anyone?

I merely looked at 50AD save where F7 showed Constantinople building Sun Tzu's at the end of Paul's set (my bad - I thought it started GLib during my turns, switching to Sun Tzu's when Amsterdam built GLib, but it was Adrianopole which was building GLib - on checking, first I can see Constantinople building Sun Tzu's is 150BC - did they stop building and restart again during your turnset Abegweit?)

Barb Stronghold I am surprised has not built more wonders. I had envisioned it being set up something like Entremont in the last SGOTM.
If my calculations are correct the AI requires 480 shields to build either Sun Tzu or Leo's. With min of 9 turns before we build Leo's, BS would require ave of 18spt to do it in 27 turns (8 turns from now). It is size 11 according to F11, now but was size 6 in 150BC the turn before starting its build. In addition Barb nation revolted during your turns and is now in republic. I think it unlikely BS will beat us unless it can do a whopping 30spt now (edit - would Gyathaar do that to us now? - too early for )

 

[Abegweit]

did they stop building and restart again during your turnset Abegweit?

Yes. They did. And I see you caught my first edit

I think it unlikely BS will beat us unless it can do a whopping 30spt now

Agreed. Our only worry is Ur (and it's probably not severe). If it wins, all we have to do is to get our GA with MoWs and take the city. Not so bad.

 

[Andronicus]

Our only worry is Ur (and it's probably not severe). If it wins, all we have to do is to get our GA with MoWs and take the city. Not so bad.

Well if we get beat to Leo's by Gil, then Sun Tzu's will look very nice in London and if Constantinople is already ours we will have a GA to get a doz cavs to take Leo's by force

 

[Abegweit]

Nuff said.

Bring em on!

Edit: You can't start a GA by winning a wonder but Leo's and Sun's would make a great combination with a MoW victory just down the road. All depends on the timing. TBD.

 

[Andronicus]

Edit: You can't start a GA by winning a wonder but Leo's and Sun's would make a great combination with a MoW victory just down the road. All depends on the timing. TBD.

You can start a GA by building any wonder (ie London building either Leo's or Sun Tzu) if you already own wonders representing your civs traits (seafaring and commercial). Owning Colossus in Constantinople prior to London completing it's wonder satisfies that criteria
Liz Thea

 

[markh]

Ur might indeed be a concern. I have checked through my saves and from what I can see it might well have switched from GL to Leo's. It's a long way back. Paul? Mark? Do you know?

I just began the research on Invention, so no Leo's during my set. Smoky in his last breaths started the GLib, but I put him into the history books two or three turns later. There were no other popups saying that someone started to build a wonder during my turns.

 

[Andronicus]

Gil started GLib build during my turnset and switched to Leo's during Paul's turn

2) 110 BC
...
Thea does pay all her money and mono for Invention, yet I give it to Gil, also... For 2 gold...
....

IBT
...
Gil starts Leo's.

 

[Paul#42]

Liz Thea

You just visualize a Celebrity Death Match, right?

I like those QSC-Stats. First time I've been 1st place there. Okay, my part was quite small, good work, guys! Way to go.

 

[Redbad]

About rushing cavalry (and please correct me if I'm wrong):

Upgrading a pikeman (30 shields) to a musketman (60 shields) costs 90 gold. With Leo that will be reduced to 45 gold. The rushing price is only dependant on the difference in shields. So upgrading with Leo costs 45 / (60 - 30) = 1,5 gold/shield. So upgrading a horseman to a cavalry will 1,5 * (80 - 30) = 75 gold.

For 75 gold we can cash-rush 75 / 4 = 19 shields and upgrade 50 shields. So it's far more efficient to build horsemen and upgrade them to cavalry then to (short)rush cavalry.

Now the plan:
When we have researched Military tradition we will be able to build horsemen when we:
1 don't know chivalry
2 don't have saltpeter connected
The first is easy enough: we don't research or accept in a trade chivalry
Wrt the second:
There are two sources of saltpeter in our culture: NE of Norwich and E of Bonampak. We pillage the Norwich saltpeter and then mine it again but don't road it (netto cost 1 commerce). We put 3 workers and a pikeman on the Bonampak saltpeter. At the beginning of each turn the 3 workers put a road on the saltpeter, we upgrade the horsemen to cavalry and set some high productive cities to build cavalry, then the pikeman pillages the road and the less productive cities are set to building horsemen. With research down to a single scientist and all the other scientists changed to taxmen we will make huge amounts of money. We'll have an enormous army in no time

Of course we have to quickly build caravels as well. And there's no upgrading for them, but luckily they only cost half the price of a cavalry.

So how does that sound for a plan?

 

[Paul#42]

Nice analysis of what I already felt

75g for a Leo supported rush is correct.

Along with the three workers we need a cheap unit on the salt - more than once I couldn't disconnect my source because all units had moved

Just in case you thought this was a flat suggestion to rush cavs:
The remark (by one of our A's ) about the rushing of some cavs was related to my plan how to get 3-4 cavs as soon as possible to get constantinopel. I had suggested upgrading (takes a turn) and one of our A's showed how we could spare that turn by rushing those cavs.

 

[Abegweit]

Yep. It does sound good. I think it's pretty much what Andronicus said earlier, although you have laid it out much more clearly.