SGOTM 10 - Team Liz

[Redbad]

Suggestions for the next session as I think they are now:

London:
settler in 2230BC off to found city at purple dot
settler in 2070BC off to found city at yellow dot
warrior1 off to scout to the SE of London

York:
curragh1 in 2310BC off to scout east
worker3 will be finished in 2110BC
start on warrior3

Nottingham:
curragh2 in 2230BC off to scout west
start on granary

Purple:
founded in 2110BC, start on warrior4

Yellow:
founded in 2030BC, start on worker4

worker1: irr/road current tile, W to sheep, road, NW to forest, chop
worker2: road current tile, E to floodplain, irr/road
worker3: S to plain, irr

Edit:
Correction: Yellow can be founded in 1990BC as we have to cross a river

 

[Andronicus]

Suggestions for the next session:
London: two settlers: 1 for yellow and 1 for red
worker1 (west): improve sheep
worker2 (east): improve floodplain
York: worker, warrior
worker3 (York): improve S of York
Nottingham: warrior, worker

This I assume means getting worker next in York (6 turns)
The quickest way to get eastern sheep irrigated is if eastern worker goes north on turn 4 (3 turns to complete current road).
London's next settler is due on turn 2, moves across river to wheat, then has road ready on turn 3 to move to yellow dot same turn worker goes north, next turn settle yellow dot and worker is in position to start irrigating and on tile adjacent to sheep. Worker in York will complete 2 turns before tile NW of yellow dot is irrigated, 1 turn for moving there and 1 is wasted (unless York's worker roads first thus delaying irrigation 2 turns but completing the tile's development 1 turn earlier). This gets York's sheep irrigated in 11 turns.
If western worker first roads it's current tile after finishes irrigating next turn, it will have Nottingham's sheep irrigation completed in 8 turns, 6 turns if moves to sheep and irrigates without connecting the roads (I prefer connecting the roads)

Because it helps speed irrigation to the sheep and hence another food bonus tile - I believe yellow dot should be next before purple dot. Yes, 2 goats are very nice, but in despotism they are still only 2 food tiles.

 

[Andronicus]

Ignore above - I thought next settler due 2270, not 2230 - will recalculate

Re-jigging things I dont think there is any sig benefit from eastern worker speeding up irrigation to York's cow as there are at least 2 wasted worker moves, on the other hand moving directly to FP after completing current road will get irrigation and hence food bonus to yellow dot timed nicely for settler London produces in 2070.

Hence I agree with plan as Redbad posted above with next settler going to purple dot, the one after to yellow dot

Only query is why doesnt western worker irrigate sheep before moving on to chop?

 

[Redbad]

That way the granary will be finished before Nottingham hits size 3.

 

[Redbad]

On the matter of research after writing and if we should trade writing, this is what Abegweit said:

CoL sure looks good to me. I see no reason to be scared of getting the slingshot. The AI will be busy researching Iron Working and Mapmaking. Let them go ahead. As usual we will get Republic, Math (if still needed) and Currency.

If we know 2 or 3 civs by the time we get Writing, it should be worth about three techs in trade. The time to trade is when the value one of the civs places on it declines to one tech. If we still only know the Incas, it should still be worth more than anything he has except Math.

Though I'm still somewhat uncomfortable with the idea that the barbs may beat us to philo, I'm prepared to go along with Abegweit as the rewards will be great if he's right. And of course the brave will inherit the earth

 

[Andronicus]

That way the granary will be finished before Nottingham hits size 3.

Dumb question but I'll ask it anyway

Does Nottingham work forest in addition to sheep at size 2? There would be some shield wastage allowing use of coast for a turn (or stealing London's irrigated plain for 2 turns when London size 4)
Alt of working coast every turn takes 4 turns longer, but Nott has grown to size 2.11 instead of 2.07 and could then put out 2 turn worker without emptying the granary, plus the commerce benefit in the interim
The irrigated plains (completing on interturn) must go to London every time it hits size 5 to get 5fpt and 7spt required for SF until such time another 2 food, 1 shield tile becomes available

 

[Andronicus]

Though I'm still somewhat uncomfortable with the idea that the barbs may beat us to philo, I'm prepared to go along with Abegweit as the rewards will be great if he's right. And of course the brave will inherit the earth

One of things civassist shows regarding barbarian government is very high corruption values outside the capital (over 30% for close towns). I interpret this to mean they will have 1 very good city, but their overall research capacity will not be much better than 1CC.

Of course with their knowing every civ and getting any tech known by 2 civs for free they dont have much need for research capacity.

Just a thought - what would happen if we eliminated all other civs first - surely we could then research way ahead of the barbs rapidly with no fear of them learning any (this might be relevent if we could limit research to knights whilst eliminating other civs rapidly, then quickly reseach to cavs)?

 

[Redbad]

No, at size 2 Nottingham works the mountaingoat, delivered by purple. Purple itself will work the hillgoat.

 

[Andronicus]

Ah now I see the sense in settling purple next

 

[Abegweit]

I am far more frustrated by setbacks of our own doing through carelessness or poor playing - most particuarly if they are mine.

I am frustrated by the inability to plan ahead. Who knew that moving off the start tile would cause increased flip risk? Or that staying on the coast would be a huge plus in the end game? The latter assumes that BGs don't have lethal bombard, which we don't know either. Nor do we know the values of s and g in the flip formula.

I like the idea that this game throws a few curve balls our way, makes it different from your standard game. How we respond to that by altering our tactics and strategy to minimise potential harm and how we cope as a team with "bad luck" is within our control.

I didn't object to the BGs or to Technology Theft. These were cool ideas. The barbs getting an IA from the start is not. Not letting us know the values of s and g or whether BGs have lethal bombard is even more majorly uncool. Unnice too.

However, it seems that most players disagree with me on this so let me make a few observations.

1) getting to Republic is even more important than usual
2) we need to get ahead of the barbs in culture. One temple should be enough. If we get CB, we might consider swapping York's granary and irrigating the sheep.
3) bigger cities are better. I'd rather take the risk, though.
4) some decent military would be good to take out flipped cities. They will have spears. How to do it is another question. Maybe Purple should get a barracks? Or maybe we just take the risk.

 

[Abegweit]

I'm still somewhat uncomfortable with the idea that the barbs may beat us to philo

I don't think we need to worry about the barbs beating us to anything unless two other civs have done it first.

Just a thought - what would happen if we eliminated all other civs first - surely we could then research way ahead of the barbs rapidly with no fear of them learning any (this might be relevent if we could limit research to knights whilst eliminating other civs rapidly, then quickly reseach to cavs)?

Forget cavs. They will be slaughtered by BGs. The only thing in the ME which has a chance against them is the MoW. As far the tech race is concerned, what counts is to get our UU before they get theirs. It's not necessarily a disaster if they build a couple but it sure would be nice to prevent it. And especially to prevent them from reaching our shores.

 

[Andronicus]

Knowing what we now know I am not convinced that I would do anything differently - only time will tell

I think you first 2 guys have played flawless turnsets , now the pressure is on the rest of us to keep up the great work.

I have never played a game where building large numbers of ships was the key to military victory. The combination of good use of attacking units (in stacks) supported by ranged units always is the key to quick military victory. Thus having a large enough productive base to produce these units will be important. MoWs I am sure will also be important but I dont think they will be the game breaker. Given a large enough stack of cavs and I can take infantry down - and that is the defence we are up against. If we attack first the bombard effect only comes into play as defensive bombard, not giving them the chance to attack first.

I await the egg on my face

 

[Abegweit]

Suggestions for the next session as I think they are now:

Sounds good. Juballs mentioned that he is very busy these days and only stop by. Does that mean a swap/skip? Andronicus?

 

[Andronicus]

Forget cavs. They will be slaughtered by BGs. The only thing in the ME which has a chance against them is the MoW. As far the tech race is concerned, what counts is to get our UU before they get theirs. It's not necessarily a disaster if they build a couple but it sure would be nice to prevent it. And especially to prevent them from reaching our shores.

How is a MoW going to help us against BGs?
In recent SGs I've been playing I have been distressingly disappointed in the bombard ability of ships - give me arty or bombers anytime. Of course these wont be available until later by which time I suspect some teams will be victorious with an earlier cav rush.

Why fear the barbarian's UU?
Am I missing something or do we not have a superior UU?
If they reach our shores BGs will surely be easier to deal with in small numbers than grouped in large numbers on their home turf.

 

[Andronicus]

Juballs mentioned that he is very busy these days and only stop by. Does that mean a swap/skip? Andronicus?

I PMed him earlier today and am awaiting reply - I'll give him 24 hours from Redbad's post unless I hear from him in the meantime

 

[Abegweit]

Given a large enough stack of cavs and I can take infantry down - and that is the defence we are up against. If we attack first the bombard effect only comes into play as defensive bombard, not giving them the chance to attack first.

I await the egg on my face

Range: 3. We can't attack first. Fry your own. You don't even need a stove. Here.

 

[Abegweit]

How is a MoW going to help us against BGs?
In recent SGs I've been playing I have been distressingly disappointed in the bombard ability of ships - give me arty or bombers anytime. Of course these wont be available until later by which time I suspect some teams will be victorious with an earlier cav rush.

Agreed that bombers would be better. The plan is not 'a' MoW. We need dozens, perhaps hundreds.

Why fear the barbarian's UU?
Am I missing something or do we not have a superior UU?
If they reach our shores BGs will surely be easier to deal with in small numbers than grouped in large numbers on their home turf.

It's their carrying capacity I fear. Even one BG on our shores would be scary, especially if we don't have cavs yet (enough cavs could take out one or two but not forty).

 

[markh]

If the barbs are not on our continent I do not think the barbs will ever ship one. IIRC I have never seen an AI shipping artillery units and the BG has no attack value, so it cannot take cities. Surely it can guard attacking units, but we will not have our cities undefended. When these BGs are available I believe we will have enough artillery units that can redline them before taking them out in case we face them landing at our coast. Another thing is they are at AW with all other AIs as well, so they cannot concentrate just on us. Although the story is different if we have eliminated all other AIs by then. In my opinion the BGs will be the key to destroy their core.

The work you guys invested is awesome. I hope I will not mess it up when it is my turn.

 

[Abegweit]

Good point, mark. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen the AI use arty on attack at all. They may, in fact, just let them accumulate in BS - something which raises its own issues. Imagine trying to take out a city with 40 of these things

 

[Redbad]

4) some decent military would be good to take out flipped cities. They will have spears. How to do it is another question. Maybe Purple should get a barracks? Or maybe we just take the risk.

And with decent military (let say veteran archers) we can hunt stray barbs. Making some some of the archers elite and pointy stick Pachacuti and his friend.

I was thinking about Nottingham. It's second in rank-corruption (after York) and second in distance-corruption (after yellow). With irregated sheep, mountaingoats and 3 forests it makes 11 shields before corruption. With an additional irrigated plain even 12 shields at size 6. With a barracks it can build an army on its own. So maybe it's an idea to let Nottingham build a barracks after the granary and then archers.