SGOTM 10 - Team Liz

[Andronicus]

I dont understand what you mean by cant avoid meeting pirate ships, we have no evidence that Dr Evil is beyond astronomy. If we hit him fast he will never get there or we will have so many troops over there that it wont matter.
Agree lone scientist is pointless - it should be 4 turn research if evidence that we need further techs and hold upgrading (ie build lesser number but of cavs) or 0% science and maximise horse -> cav upgrade.

 

[Abegweit]

Pirate ships come with Astronomy

 

[Andronicus]

Ack, I was thinking they were equivalent of privateers and not available till magnetism, indeed.

Suggest stack caravels with at least 1 empty

Once we start razing Dr Evil's towns he will have less coastal towns for injured pirate ships to heal in and in which to produce more. So long as we can get that first mass landing they will be more pesky than a huge worry.

edit. just a reminder to all - pirate ships are 2 attack, 1 defence, bombard 3, travel 9 and carry 1 with enslave ability

I still dont think they are a strong enough reason to go the science route to magnetism.

 

[Paul#42]

Suggest stack caravels with at least 1 empty

Is it sure that empty ships are attacked / sunk first?

 

[Abegweit]

Even the galleys were bad enough. We lost two caravels against them in two turns in barb waters. Mind you, stacked caravels should be safe enough against galleys. This is not true of Pirate Ships, though. The PS will win most attacks.

My assessment: the initial landing would probably go well enough but we are going to have serious problems thereafter. We will be losing several caravels each turn.

 

[Paul#42]

Sending empty ships won't help us much. As soon as Barbies can attack them, ALL should be empty...

The player who plays D-day should not move the whole stack at once but a single ship first - just in case there is no empty tile for a landing...

That's what I would like an early spearhead for.

How about PS bombing our coasts? The won't be able to visit us before Magnetism / Navigation, right?

 

[Abegweit]

Stacked caravels survive nicely against galleys because it takes 2 or 3 hits to kill a boat. Basically the enemy has to go through the entire stack before units start dying. Pirate ships are different because they can get kills in a single shot.

And, yes, they can reach our shores - just like we can reach theirs.

 

[Paul#42]

Team Spam (or discussion - we) is the least recently posted thread in SGotm10 category?!? I have to change that

Juballs, how are you doing?!? Played with barbies already?

 

[Abegweit]

OTOH, we are far ahead in total spam. No one else even comes close. We are actually twice anyone but Wotan, who, BTW, is going very well considering that he is playing a training game. He would appear that he has good students

 

[markh]

Actually it is that much that I can hardly work. Already counting the minutes for the long (German) weekend.

 

[Paul#42]

During the "long German weekend" I won't be able to post much here because we will start to renovate our kitchen... I can already smell dust, sweat and crying children... :suicide:

Even more next week I have holiday (for more work on the house) - so do not expect me to be too active here...
However I hope the nights will provide some civving time...

Already looking forward to get back to work on June 12th...

 

[juballs2001]

sorry guys... i have been without internet for the past day and a half.
i will post my results by tommorow

 

[juballs2001]

update guys.... thereis far too much micromanagement for me in this turnset. i swapped with andro.

no time to do that much work, im kind of stuck under a lot of work at hoem as it is already

 

[Andronicus]

I got it ...

 

[Paul#42]

a I missing something?

 

[Andronicus]

Abegweit pm-ed me regarding future reseach and asked we discuss it further before proceding

edit (Abegweit's comment)

I would like a serious team discussion of the pros and cons of MT vs Nav vs Steam vs Industry before any science stoppage. I was willing to go with stopping at MT until I found out that the barbs have Pirate Ships. Since they do, I believe it would be a big mistake not to get the counter. And since that brings us sooo close to the IA, Industry (or Steam at the minimum) woudl be a huge boost.

My view
After MT comes in (this inter-turn), we turn off research to finance our horse upgrades (no point paying upgrade costs for units past their use by date.
I have rethought the disconnect / connect salt previously discussed. This will be very costly and result in quite long lag until all horses are upgraded. By building cavs (initially) we can use our commerce to upgrade the horses already built first.
Once these are upgraded I think we need to decide whether to research to MoW to counter pirate ships or whether to cont 0% research and fund horse - cav upgrades via connecting / disconnecting salt.
I would like top send an advance party of maybe 9 cavs to south in about 5 or 6 turns. If we get harrassed by pirate ships we should stop the horse cav upgrades and switch research back on (should get physics and magnetism easily in 8 turns during GA) for 8 turns then build some MoW to control the pirate ship problem.

Abegweit then wants us to consider steam and industrialisation.
My view is the wastage (not the 8 or so turns to get the techs, but the loss of bulk horse -> cav upgrades which more than doubles our unit production and loss of cav builds whilst we build factories) markedly reduces our ability to blitz Dr Evil which I think is key to early victory.
Of course if barbs have a 1 tile island we will need the research.

Please consider and discuss

 

[Andronicus]

a I missing something?

Yes, you missed an m

 

[Paul#42]

Yes, you missed an m

Ah, you found it. Nice.

This will be very costly and result in quite long lag until all horses are upgraded. By building cavs (initially) we can use our commerce to upgrade the horses already built first.
Once these are upgraded I think we need to decide whether to research to MoW to counter pirate ships or whether to cont 0% research and fund horse - cav upgrades via connecting / disconnecting salt.

I agree completely! 0-research till the last horse has been upgraded.

I would like top send an advance party of maybe 9 cavs to south in about 5 or 6 turns. If we get harrassed by pirate ships we should stop the horse cav upgrades and switch research back on (should get physics and magnetism easily in 8 turns during GA) for 8 turns then build some MoW to control the pirate ship problem.

Agreed. Should we also send some pikes and a settler?

Abegweit then wants us to consider steam and industrialisation.
My view is the wastage (not the 8 or so turns to get the techs, but the loss of bulk horse -> cav upgrades which more than doubles our unit production and loss of cav builds whilst we build factories) markedly reduces our ability to blitz Dr Evil which I think is key to early victory.
Of course if barbs have a 1 tile island we will need the research.

Exactly my opinion. As I stated before, I think we already decided to go that direction quite early in the game and we would now waste our main advantages if we change for a research-based victory. However, if we find a one-tile-island (or face to heavy resistance to fight it with cavs) we have to reconsider our path - but we will have small chances of being fastest, then.

 

[Andronicus]

I think the other concern that Abegweit has is the pirate ships. I am sure in human player hands they would be deadly - attack with a large stack against a large stack of caravels and even if results are 50 / 50 enslave ensures dont lose numbers and just get stronger.
My thought is will the AI know how to use them best against us, particuarly will they attack a large stack of empty caravels (as we will unload as we arrive on coastal tile)? Will they use them for transporting (lessening likelihood of them directly attacking)?
I think we need to suck it and see. If we are able to get cavs over there in big numbers we should be able to raze towns and reduce the numbers they can produce. I admit I dont know quite what will happen and we have to be prepared to adapt, but if it is possible to get a large force landed this gives us a big advantage.

 

[Abegweit]

@Andronicus.

Actually, there are four possible places to stop research.

1) Cavs, for obvious reasons. It gets us the unit we need to take the war to the barbs.

2) Magnetism. Two more techs. It gives us galleons and, more importantly, MoWs. The latter will protect our shipping. Attrition against Pirate Ships will be frightful if we do not do something about them.

3) Steam. 1-2 additional techs beyond Mag, depending on how lucky we are with free techs. Gives us railroads. The production benefits alone are huge. Never mind the issue of speed to the front.

4) Industrialisation. 1 tech beyond steam. If we're REALLY lucky with free techs, 1 tech beyond Mag. Gives factories and coal plants. Once again, the production benefits are obvious.

My personal preference is to go to steam. I feel quite strongly that we are going to need MoWs and the distance from there to railroads is small. In contrast, the opportunity cost of factories is large. A factory costs three cavs. That's a lot.

If we do wait, there is plenty to be done to get ready. We need to take Gi, banish him to some island, and get our science (soon to be tax) farms up and running. I could easily see that taking 12 turns or so.