ShannonCT
Deity
It's even better than that. Food doesn't get bonus from forge or Bureau while building workers/settler. But whipping them gets those bonuses.
SGOTM 10 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
It's even better than that. Food doesn't get bonus from forge or Bureau while building workers/settler. But whipping them gets those bonuses.
What would be the residual effects on willingness to trade of having irritated the religious sensitivities of the AI for 50 or so turns converted to our religion in order to run Pacifism?For OR or Pacifism to be effective, we must adopt a religion. OR allows missionaries without converting to a state religion, so it would facilitate converting our own cities and speeding their expansion. If we convert to a state religion, Pacifism is the more powerful early civic, while we're expanding and building units, not buildings..
We get religion on the IBT between turns 6 and 7, iirc. Yes, and so does every other civ, and every one of them quickly adopts their own religion, so I question how succesful we could be converting them to ours. If we can't, we'll quickly be minus something in relations with all of them. Is the thinking that we could eventually send a missionary to a city and then trade a tech for conversion? I'm thinking we might be better off in Pacifism (to speed GP production) while we have nothing to trade. We could then switch out later when trading is profitabe.
While aggressively pop-rushing, I found no real benefit to HR. We have Gold and Ivory to make somefaces. I had a bit different experience. I grew St. Pete to 8 and whipped a settler with 4 pop. The second time I did this, got there in less than 15 turns and benefited from HR and an extra warrior. This is obviously not a major benefit from HR, but it was a benefit.
I think the question in the early game is trade, which I did a lot of in test games as a tech broker, important enough to chance diplo anxiety among our AI "friends"?
Thanks for the correction. You are correct about this, and I agree with you concerning Pacifism. That also means another turn of anarchy...
I did not try this, so I am not sure.
I was thinking more in terms of picking one of the religions of an AI that we need to have, much as we did with Hammi in the early part of last game?
iirc, once we change to no religion, or Free Religion, the negatives go away. I think we'll need Pacifism for longer to keep those Great People coming, no?
PaulisKhan
Physicist
Is someone willing to test out NE+NP settling in place?
The cows+clam+2*gold could then be claimed by settling on the desert hill.
Bulbing is going to be huge in this, Gold loses some of its relative power in a late start. It's still good, but it's not gamebreaking in the sense that it represents a far smaller fraction of the lategame tech costs.
Bulbing on the otherhand scales much better with the late game.
We could do a GE from the forge first for rushing the Kremlin and then start spamming scientists.
I think Kremlin because once we research the required techs we just want to build/buy as many units as possible as quickly as possible so there's no reason not to turn research down to zero and rushbuy our way to victory.
The cows+clam+2*gold could then be claimed by settling on the desert hill.
Bulbing is going to be huge in this, Gold loses some of its relative power in a late start. It's still good, but it's not gamebreaking in the sense that it represents a far smaller fraction of the lategame tech costs.
Bulbing on the otherhand scales much better with the late game.
We could do a GE from the forge first for rushing the Kremlin and then start spamming scientists.
I think Kremlin because once we research the required techs we just want to build/buy as many units as possible as quickly as possible so there's no reason not to turn research down to zero and rushbuy our way to victory.
PK, are you suggesting that we settle St. Pete on the desert hill?
The ivory city has three seafood resources and two floodplains. Appears an ideal city for bulbing. I've never built the NP, but it was impressive in SGOTM9. Nonetheless, it's hard for me to believe that giving up chopping forests that yield 78 hammers apiece, when there is a pressing need to rex (with 300+ hammer settlers) and grow simultaneously, is the best approach. How much of an advantage is it to have the NP in our capital?
"I was thinking more in terms of picking one of the religions of an AI that we need to have, much as we did with Hammi in the early part of last game?" No way to know when one of those will come to us, so don't like selecting civic at the beginning of the game on that basis.
I my testing I did not convert to a religion (ran HR, so no benefit), but not at all convinced that Pacifism isn't worth the diplomatic cost. Has someone tested and determined how much map trading and later tech trading will be affected by sectarian reaction?
The ivory city has three seafood resources and two floodplains. Appears an ideal city for bulbing. I've never built the NP, but it was impressive in SGOTM9. Nonetheless, it's hard for me to believe that giving up chopping forests that yield 78 hammers apiece, when there is a pressing need to rex (with 300+ hammer settlers) and grow simultaneously, is the best approach. How much of an advantage is it to have the NP in our capital?
"I was thinking more in terms of picking one of the religions of an AI that we need to have, much as we did with Hammi in the early part of last game?" No way to know when one of those will come to us, so don't like selecting civic at the beginning of the game on that basis.
I my testing I did not convert to a religion (ran HR, so no benefit), but not at all convinced that Pacifism isn't worth the diplomatic cost. Has someone tested and determined how much map trading and later tech trading will be affected by sectarian reaction?
Just created a scenario in WorldBuilder where I found the capital on the hill as PK suggests and place National Epic and National Park in it. Change civics to Pacifism, Bureaucracy, Mercantilism and Caste. I also magiced in all the Forest Preserves, 10 in all.
Checked the city and it is currently producing, at size 12, 76 gpp per turn. That translates to an awful lot of beakers.
Frederiksberg
Deity
I just want to point out that the Capital doesn't get any GPP multipliers from Bureaucracy. So any city with 10+ forests/jungles in the FC and some food resources would qualify as an equally strong GP farm. The important number is more likely the number of beakers generated from scientists running Representation and possibly with Oxford rather than NE.
The problem with this strategy may be that unlike the previous game we are not going deep into the tech tree this time. In principle we only need nukes and a military tech that allows for sufficiently strong attacking units. It may not pay off to follow a strategy where we spend much time to set up this NP city only to realize that we are almost done researching anyway (I know I'm exaggerating here).
I think we could benefit from writing a list of the minimum techs we need to get to nukes. Then we can start discussing which off-beeline branches we may want e.g. Biology, Constitution, Communism, MilTrad, Assembly Line. We may not need all of them. The beaker enhancing techs must come early (Constitution) to be useful while the hammer enhancing techs are useful in general.
The problem with this strategy may be that unlike the previous game we are not going deep into the tech tree this time. In principle we only need nukes and a military tech that allows for sufficiently strong attacking units. It may not pay off to follow a strategy where we spend much time to set up this NP city only to realize that we are almost done researching anyway (I know I'm exaggerating here).
I think we could benefit from writing a list of the minimum techs we need to get to nukes. Then we can start discussing which off-beeline branches we may want e.g. Biology, Constitution, Communism, MilTrad, Assembly Line. We may not need all of them. The beaker enhancing techs must come early (Constitution) to be useful while the hammer enhancing techs are useful in general.
Frederiksberg
Deity
leif erikson said:
One option would be to swap out of religion to do the tech deals and then swap back again. Don't know if this will work but I think it's worth testing. One obstacle is that it may be hard to keep resource deals and open borders long enough to get positive diplomatic modifiers.
PaulisKhan
Physicist
absolutely 100% agree. Let's look at how many beakers we need before committing ourselves to one strategy.
"The problem with this strategy may be that unlike the previous game we are not going deep into the tech tree this time." Yes, not going as far and starting further along -- thus fewer beakers needed and fewer turns of NP-bulbing available.
ShannonCT
Deity
Techs we must have to build nukes:
Printing Press
Replaceable Parts
Gunpowder
Rifling
Astronomy
Chemistry
Scientific Method
Steel
Physics
Artillery
Electricity
Rocketry
Fission
I'll post an image of the tech tree with techs highlighted.
Other tech paths that might make teching or warring faster:
Education-Liberalism-Communism (requires SciMeth also)
Nationalism-Constitution
Biology (requires Chem-SciMeth)
Education-Economics-Corporation-Steam Power-Assembly Line (requires Chem and RP also)
We also need to know what Great People will want to bulb (necessary techs bolded):
Great Engineer
Great Scientist
Great Merchant
Great Engineers are good early. The first one can bulb the majority of Gunpowder. The next one would bulb about half of Chemistry if we don't have Printing Press or Education or Nationalism yet, or otherwise parts of Replaceable Parts (or Economics or Constitution). Chemistry adds 1 hammer to workshops while Replaceable Parts adds 1 hammer to watermills. GEs can also bulb Steel or Steam Power. With a free specialist available at the beginning with Mercantilism and with an engineer the only type we can hire immediately, a GE is very likely to be our first great person, and a second GE is also probable.
Great Merchants will bulb Economics, Constitution, and Corporation if we have Education and/or Nationalism.
Great Scientists have the most value (giving the most beakers and bulbing the most needed techs). The first one would want to bulb Education. But if we trade for Education, next in line are Printing Press, Chemistry (if we don't have Astro yet), SciMeth, Astronomy, Physics, Biology, Electricity, and Fission.
Printing Press
Replaceable Parts
Gunpowder
Rifling
Astronomy
Chemistry
Scientific Method
Steel
Physics
Artillery
Electricity
Rocketry
Fission
I'll post an image of the tech tree with techs highlighted.
Other tech paths that might make teching or warring faster:
Education-Liberalism-Communism (requires SciMeth also)
Nationalism-Constitution
Biology (requires Chem-SciMeth)
Education-Economics-Corporation-Steam Power-Assembly Line (requires Chem and RP also)
We also need to know what Great People will want to bulb (necessary techs bolded):
Great Engineer
Spoiler :
Great Scientist
Spoiler :
Great Merchant
Spoiler :
Great Engineers are good early. The first one can bulb the majority of Gunpowder. The next one would bulb about half of Chemistry if we don't have Printing Press or Education or Nationalism yet, or otherwise parts of Replaceable Parts (or Economics or Constitution). Chemistry adds 1 hammer to workshops while Replaceable Parts adds 1 hammer to watermills. GEs can also bulb Steel or Steam Power. With a free specialist available at the beginning with Mercantilism and with an engineer the only type we can hire immediately, a GE is very likely to be our first great person, and a second GE is also probable.
Great Merchants will bulb Economics, Constitution, and Corporation if we have Education and/or Nationalism.
Great Scientists have the most value (giving the most beakers and bulbing the most needed techs). The first one would want to bulb Education. But if we trade for Education, next in line are Printing Press, Chemistry (if we don't have Astro yet), SciMeth, Astronomy, Physics, Biology, Electricity, and Fission.
Attachments
PaulisKhan
Physicist
Given that almost everything we require apart from rocketry and artillery can be bulbed I think bulbing will be the way to go.
I would add flight to the list of possible techs too, we showed lastime how airlifting units can be used to greatly improve reinforcement time and since this is as much about war as it is about tech we shouldn't underestimate its value.
Also consider democracy as being worth trading for, it's a tech that many AI will beeline, being able to rushbuy would be useful and gives us something to do with our commerce once the last tech has been researched.
I would add flight to the list of possible techs too, we showed lastime how airlifting units can be used to greatly improve reinforcement time and since this is as much about war as it is about tech we shouldn't underestimate its value.
Also consider democracy as being worth trading for, it's a tech that many AI will beeline, being able to rushbuy would be useful and gives us something to do with our commerce once the last tech has been researched.
"Given that almost everything we require apart from rocketry and artillery can be bulbed I think bulbing will be the way to go." Sounds like support for starting off in Pacifism.
Mad Professor
Deity
Unless we think we can get to fission a long way ahead of the AI, flight is rather useful. If we have it and the AI doesn't, we can rip through them like a hot knife through butter. Flight is an essential part of modern warfare.
On the other hand, how modern will be our warfare? Can we be confident of teching fast enough on emperor to be able to finish off all the other civs before they get modern? Remember they already renaissance at the same time as us - we're not starting to build a tech lead all the way from the ancient era.
Flight requires combustion and physics. The latter is on the way to fission anyway, the former would be a side track from the beelines SCT mentioned. It will shorten rocketry though.
The question to answer is whether the beakers going into combustion - flight are worth to military advantage flight would give us...? I'm a bit of a flight fan having played quite a few modern starts, but my experience with renaissance starts is limited and my experience with BtS is still in the process of expanding rapidly, so if those much stronger in those areas tell me flight's not worth it, I probably won't argue!
Edit: Hmm - and combustion requires railroad which I didn't mention above. That makes it a fairly long side track...
ShannonCT
Deity
The effects may be loss of diplo points for no Open Borders, no trading resources, no fair trade relations, refused demands, etc. It's easier to get good relations starting without a state religion and then mitigating the effects of different religions later. I'd like to know who the AI are before deciding to go to a state religion. I want to know how religiously sensitive the AI are and whether we can get "favorite civics" bonuses with some of them. The benefit of state religion and Pacifism is small at the start of the game with only 1 religious city and 1 specialist.
I will test NE+NP in capital today. In my first test game, I put NE+NP in a different city.
Note that there are 2 ways to go for Biology (for National Park):
1) After bulbing PP, SciMeth, and Chem, research Biology without bulbing.
2) After bulbing PP, SciMeth, and Chem, bulb or trade for Astro, bulb Physics, and then bulb Biology. Astro and Physics are above Biology on the GSs bulb order. Physics will give 1 free GS, good for about 40% of Biology.
I think Flight will cost more than its worth. It requires expensive prereqs Railroad and Combustion. We're playing on a small map, compared to a standard map last game. ICBMs can be launched from anywhere and Tactical Nukes can rebase like airships. The only thing we need to move are Cossacks. Cossacks can move up to 6 tiles per turn. And since we appear to be starting on the "small" part of the Big and Small map, we can galleon chain Cossacks from our homeland to coastal cities that we capture on the "big". 3-5 galleons are usually enough for a chain on a small map.
ShannonCT
Deity
Did you have a look at 1884AD save from my first test game? I think I was quite far ahead of the AI by the time I finished the Manhattan Project. Why? Because the AI doesn't realize the value of spamming cities on a Renaissance start (it doesn't matter how low your tech rate goes at the start) and the AI doesn't bulb, instead building useless wonders, shrines, academies, etc.
ShannonCT
Deity
Here are the tech costs in this game.
Necessary techs:
Printing Press 2419
Replaceable Parts 2721
Gunpowder 1814
Rifling 3628
Astronomy 3024
Chemistry 2721
Scientific Method 3628
Steel 4233
Physics 6048
Artillery 6048
Electricity 6804
Rocketry 7560
Fission 8316
Optional techs:
Nationalism 2721
Education 2721
Economics 2116
Liberalism 2116
Constitution 3024
Corporation 2419
Steam Power 4838
Communism 4233
Assembly Line 7560
Biology 5443
On emperor, techs cost 20% more for us than the AI. So divide these numbers by 1.2 to see how much these techs are worth to the AI.
Great Scientists give us ~2330 beakers to start. For every additional population in our cities, a GS gives an additional 4-5 beakers.
Other Great People give us ~1550 beakers to start. For every additional population in our cities, a GS gives an additional 3-4 beakers.
Necessary techs:
Printing Press 2419
Replaceable Parts 2721
Gunpowder 1814
Rifling 3628
Astronomy 3024
Chemistry 2721
Scientific Method 3628
Steel 4233
Physics 6048
Artillery 6048
Electricity 6804
Rocketry 7560
Fission 8316
Optional techs:
Nationalism 2721
Education 2721
Economics 2116
Liberalism 2116
Constitution 3024
Corporation 2419
Steam Power 4838
Communism 4233
Assembly Line 7560
Biology 5443
On emperor, techs cost 20% more for us than the AI. So divide these numbers by 1.2 to see how much these techs are worth to the AI.
Great Scientists give us ~2330 beakers to start. For every additional population in our cities, a GS gives an additional 4-5 beakers.
Other Great People give us ~1550 beakers to start. For every additional population in our cities, a GS gives an additional 3-4 beakers.
"I want to know how religiously sensitive the AI are and whether we can get "favorite civics" bonuses with some of them. This would also allow us to do some map trading before alienation.The benefit of state religion and Pacifism is small at the start of the game with only 1 religious city and 1 specialist." In every test I ran with your save, religion spread quickly to the second city, so Pacifism becomes beneficial in two cities fairly soon. If we're going to go to Pacifism, certainly would like to do so no later than when we start settling new cities and the cost of anarchy ratchets up. Turns not in Pacifism represent real losses if we do indeed decide to go there, which argues for emphasizing exploration early so we can meet the AI and decide on whether Pacifism is worth the diplo cost. (Question is still hanging as to whether OR or HR is optimal at the start of the game.)
In my tests, having built the library in the capital, I can get a long way towards Gunpowder before the AI is willing, or even able, to trade anything. Wondering if researching Gunpowder and bulbing Chem with our first GE isn't the way to go.
BTW, how do I get the turn number to show up in upper right corner as it did in previous games, and how confident can we be that we have 40? turns to circumnavigate first?
In my tests, having built the library in the capital, I can get a long way towards Gunpowder before the AI is willing, or even able, to trade anything. Wondering if researching Gunpowder and bulbing Chem with our first GE isn't the way to go.
BTW, how do I get the turn number to show up in upper right corner as it did in previous games, and how confident can we be that we have 40? turns to circumnavigate first?
If we know we are going to use Cossacks, shouldn't Nationalism and Military Tradition be in the required tech column?
I wouldn't count on 40 turns. In the test game, Augustus was very adept at Map Trading and had circumnavigation early if I traded maps with him. I think it might be a good idea to avoid map trading until we have circumnavigated? If SCT is correct and we are on the small continent, we hold the key to circumnavigation via map trading.
ShannonCT
Deity
It shouldn't take long to identify all the AI if we build a caravel early and buy maps from anyone we meet.
As far as HR/OR decision, happy cap is 8 in capital and 7 elsewhere with gold and ivory and without HR or state religion. The extra gold and ivory may let us trade for another luxury, or we may find another nearby. A population of 8 in the capital is high enough to whip a settler after 1-2 turns of production. I like OR since we want to produce stuff other than workers and settlers while building up population to whip them. We need 1-2 caravels, 3+ workboats, some warriors, maybe a library. That will leave some room for missionaries. And we can replace some of the warrior fogbusters with missionary fogbusters who can wait for cities to be settled. We should look to build a few extra missionaries before we switch to Pacifism so new cities can get some immediate culture.
Yeah, that's not bad. If we got a second GE, there's still Steel and Replaceable Parts to be bulbed.
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