SGOTM 11 - ChokoMisfits

Ozbenno · Jun 15, 2010

Still lurking :scan:

It is hard to imagine that CoL won't pop up soon in a trade (Currency also). If we still have a Theology monopoly, we should be able to get CoL. I would think that heading straight for Education is the better idea (but bear in mind I haven't played Civ for about 3 months) :mischief:

Sleepless · Jun 15, 2010

Ozbenno said:
It is hard to imagine that CoL won't pop up soon in a trade (Currency also). If we still have a Theology monopoly, we should be able to get CoL. I would think that heading straight for Education is the better idea (but bear in mind I haven't played Civ for about 3 months)

I know how long we had to wait in the Pericles SGOTM for currency. I don't think this will be much quicker.

Sun Tzu Wu · Jun 15, 2010

ianw1610 said:
The best way to accomplish our goal of fast Oxford Uni is to go straight for Education now, picking up at least Currency along the way via trading. After Education I'd go for CoL (if we haven't already picked it up from a trade) and then Civil Service.

I'm OK with going for Education, given we will have a Great Scientist to bulb the bulk of it in ~15t and complete it shortly there after. There's no pressing need of Code of Laws quite yet, although a few Courthouses would help increase our Research slider dramatically.

Again, researching Currency would provide real benefits, so I'm not totally against it.

It is frustrating that we can't seem to get our Population high enough to take good advantage of early Representation. So not having Caste System may not matter that much for now. Hopefully we can get Code of Laws (or Currency) in trade soon if we work to get to Friendly with most AIs. Of the AIs, Justinian I seems to be in the Research lead (if I read things right, he has Literature) and is likely to trade Technologies with us, assuming we can get to Friendly with him; We should make maximum Resource trades to him to get +2 Diplomacy via Resources ASAP.

After Education, we probably will need Code of Laws and Civil Service, but we will be able to Research faster with whipped Universities and a bit later Oxford University.

ianw1610 said:
It shouldn't be a problem to build a Settler or two in the immediate future... however what could be a problem is settling the actual new cities, because Maintenance costs would then spiral out of control.

Yes, we could build two Settlers in the near future. One for near the Gold and Saladin and the other for the Sugar Island/Continent. We could just get these two Settlers in place and settle either one only when an AI approaches with its own Settler or when we get either Code of Laws or Currency in trade.

We should have Code of Laws, Courthouses and Currency, before we build more than 1-2 Cities.

Sun Tzu Wu

haphazard1 · Jun 15, 2010

Sleepless has reminded me of how long it took the AIs to finally get Currency in the Pericles SGOTM.

That turned out very poorly for us Misfits.

I am OK with researching any of the 3 techs, really, although I prefer either Education or Currency. There are plusses and minuses for all three, and it really depends how quickly you think the AI will finish Currency and CoL.

Good luck with the turnset, ianw1610!

Mighty Dwaarf · Jun 16, 2010

If the GS is due as expected I would stick with Education, I was going to suggest that we could build a settler or two in anticipation of future growth. We can review again after Edu.

ianw1610 · Jun 16, 2010

Ok, noted. I'll play the remainder of the turnset today!

Sleepless · Jun 16, 2010

I like the idea of having a couple of settlers in place for when we could afford to settle them. especially the triple gold site. I think sugar island is safe atm but zara is lacking places to settle now so probably best to unload one there now as well.

Good luck with the rest of the turnset ianw1610

ianw1610 · Jun 16, 2010

Ok, so to recap from the first part of the turnset from earlier in the week:

Completed research of Theology and bulbed Paper. Obtained Construction from a trade with Justinian.

Exchanged World Maps to identify that the Ottoman empire exists, and to view locations of some key resources.

And then, from today... this is my report......

Everything went according to our discussions. We completed all 3 Wonders:
Great Library
Parthenon
Shwedagon Peya

We switched to Free Religion (for now) for the Happiness and Research bonuses.

Mausoleum built by Justinian (not that it matters!)

I managed the Great Person generation so that a guaranteed Great Scientist was born in HorseCopper – he bulbed some of Education. With the invested research, we are now just 3 turns away from completing Education.

Our next Settler is just 1 turn away, and then another Settler a few turns after that.

Our next Great Person from Capital will be 50/50 between Engineer and Scientist. If an Engineer, we should save for the UN. Not sure what to do if we get a Scientist... either Golden Age, or save for bulbing some of Electricity.

We have a Library in each city, although I had to whip ThreeClams down to Size 2 to complete a Library there. PigFish is already at the happiness cap, so I’m working some low-food tiles as only 2 Scientists are allowed.

We got the circumnavigation bonus, as our maps prove the world is round. The +1 movement bonus for our ships will come in useful.

Our Galley made one move towards Sugar island, but was taken out by a Barb Galley. As far as I can see, it is an island, not a continent.

As discussed, I whipped 2 Galleys – one to protect the North and one to protect the South. Both have killed 1 Barb Galley already. The northern Galley needs 1 more turn to heal, and can then explore more of the Sugar island site.

Our exploring Workboat to the West was blocked by Ice, so I’m bringing it home to use as a fishing net. It has made it as far as Basra, but there is a Barb Galley in that area, so I’m holding the Workboat in Basra city at the moment, and I have sent our southern Galley there to escort it back home.

Justinian completed Code of Laws and Philosophy in quick succession (Philosophy by way of a bulb), so he founded Confucianism and Taoism. As CoL is unique, he is not willing to trade it to us. The same will be true of Philosophy.

Of note, Justinian converted to Confucianism. In the future, this may irritate the Hindus (Tokugawa and Saladin), but neither of them yet consider him a Worst Enemy.

Saladin was first to tech Currency, but again, he won’t trade it to us, as it is unique.

I did not initially trade Theology to anyone, but Justinian and Saladin both researched it, so we no longer have Theology as trade bait (i.e. I think our best option is to self-research CoL and Currency as we are less likely now to get them in trades).

Given that Tokugawa did not have Theology, I traded it to him for Calendar. Two of our workers are on their way to build Plantations on our 2 Incense tiles.

I met the last AI rival – Mehmed of the Ottoman empire. He is at war with Isabella. This is not a religious war, as they are both Buddhists.

Mehmed has already captured Barcelona, which is the Jewish Holy City. It is also the city with the abundance of Dye, so it is likely later in the game that we may be able to get Dye from Mehmed, as well as Isabella.

Isabella is down to 4 cities. She cannot be killed, as this would mean us failing the game. If we sufficiently bribe Mehmed, he will take peace with Isabella.

On diplomacy with Isabella and Mehmed, neither are happy with us. Isabella demanded Theology when we held it uniquely, so I said no. 2 turns later she demanded Aesthetics... and as everyone else held this tech, I agreed. When I first met Mehmed he had a -4 “Trading with Worst Enemy” penalty against us, presumably due to the Aesthetics trade.

When I first met Mehmed, he considered us his Worst Enemy (despite him being at war with Isabella). He was technologically backwards, so I gifted him Alphabet, which gave us a -3 “Trading with Worst Enemy” penalty from Isabella...

Mehmed has traded us a Map. Silk is in heavy abundance in his lands. There is also a Barb city with Silk, up in the NW corner of Mehmed’s lands.

As we are soon to start constructing Oxford Uni, I cancelled our Stone deal to Justinian, as we need Stone for the production bonus. We still have an active trade of Silver to Gold with Justinian. We now have active Resource trading with every other leader.

In 3 turns, we will complete research of Education. I suggest we then research CoL ---> Currency ---> Civil Service (keeping our eyes open for trades along the way).

I recommend that our next Settler settles the GoldFish site, and the following one settles the SugarIsland site.

Anyway, no screenshots this time (too much time typing lots of words!!!!!!) haphazard1 up next, and thanks again for swapping with me for this turnset!!

And so, onto Anno Domini !!!

Here is your Session Turn Log from 245 BC to 25AD:

Spoiler :

haphazard1 · Jun 16, 2010

Sounds like a pretty good turnset overall, ianw1610! :thumbsup:

Unfortunate to get the "trade with worst enemy" penalties, but also very difficult to avoid.

Good to hear that dye and silk are likely to be available. With ivory on the other continent, the furs will probably be the toughest to get -- as expected from the scenario description.

I am not surprised by multiple AIs researching Theology -- with the fave civics they put high priority on it. At least we got Calendar from it -- one more reason we should settle Sugar Island promptly, let's get some sugar happiness.

Also, what is Mehmed's favorite civic? Need to check this. Tokugawa and Mercantilism, other four Theocracy. Hope Mehmed is not Free Religion.

We have our three wonders, we have some settlers coming out, and we will very soon have Education. All very positive news.

I will look at the save tonight when I get home from work and post more detailed thoughts. But it looks like my turnset should emphasize:

- Finish Education, start building universities ASAP
- Once universities are up, start Oxford. Where? Capital, or at PigFish? Probably Capital (PigFish will take forever to build it even with stone), but it should be discussed.
- Settle a gold site (exactly where?) and Sugar Island (needs a bit more exploration to determine the best site)

Open issues include:

- Tech path - what to research next. Knowing at least one AI already has Currency and CoL makes me reluctant to spend beakers there. But we have already delayed them quite a bit.

Do we keep hoping to get them in trade, or give up and research them ourselves? Do any AIs have Metal Casting yet? We need to push down the line to Optics eventually, and forges would boost production and happiness. Plus MC is great trade bait.
- Barb defense and/or fogbusting
- Military planning
- Diplomacy. With the western continent possibly splitting for future religious wars, how do we respond? Is Isabella seriously threatened by Mehmed -- enough that we should intervene? Or can we let them fight and waste resources on each other without risking one being eliminated?

Lots to think about for this next turnset. Let's hear from the team.

Nice work, ianw1610!

ianw1610 · Jun 16, 2010

Mehmed's favourite Civic is Vassalage (we would likely use Bureaucracy instead).

Tokugawa has Metal Casting but not willing to trade.

I'd put Oxford in Capital.

We are allowed 2 DoWs in this game. I think now is a great time to discuss how best to use them......

haphazard1 · Jun 16, 2010

Vassalage for Mehmed...OK, at least it is not Free Religion.

As Spiritual, we can always switch without anarchy if he ask us to, and then switch back 5 turns later. This is true of all the AIs, and we can hope they will ask so we can get the diplo bonus for agreeing. Have the two civs which researched Theocracy adopted their favorite civics? (I am guessing yes.) We should consider switching from Free Religion to Theocracy to start building +diplo, although this will eliminate any chance of free religious spread since we have no state religion.

Toku with Metal Casting already...interesting. Toku can become very dangerous if he grows large enough and is actually pleased enough with someone to open borders and get some trade going. (Until he switches to his fave civic of Mercantilism, anyway.) Samurai are quite nasty, if he gets them into the game early enough.

On our two allowed DOWs, we need to be careful about using them. One at least should be reserved for the furs, in case some AI beats us to the barbarians and takes them over. We should be cautious about using the second as well -- if we want a war we can probably adopt a different religion and provoke someone into a fight.

I need to recheck the rules -- I believe the limit was that no more than 2 AIs can have the "you declared war on us" penalty. This would mean we can declare on that AI as many times as we like. So our limit is not really 2 DOWs but rather 2 AIs we can DOW as often as we want.

ianw1610 · Jun 16, 2010

Saladin and Justinian have both adopted Theocracy already. Zara and Isabella will doubtless do the same when they get Theology.

Correct, the rule is that we can DoW on no more than 2 AIs, although there is no linit on how many times we DoW each one of our 2 chosen targets.

Another rule that we have not really discussed, is that, at the end of the game, we must have a State Religion which is present in all our cities. We need to think whether to build some Monasteries (as these cannot be built post-SciMeth), or if we want to manage religion spread by spending some time in OrgRel and pumping out Missionaries.

Sleepless · Jun 16, 2010

Nice turnset ianw1610. :goodjob:

Currently at work so will try and look at the save a bit later. Right about Isa not attacking us, seems Mehmed got there earlier and attacked first.

Sun Tzu Wu · Jun 16, 2010

ianw1610 said:
Another rule that we have not really discussed, is that, at the end of the game, we must have a State Religion which is present in all our cities. We need to think whether to build some Monasteries (as these cannot be built post-SciMeth), or if we want to manage religion spread by spending some time in OrgRel and pumping out Missionaries.

We definitely want at least a Monastery of our chosen State Religion.

Effect of State Religion rules on our TUN Diplomatic Win plan:

It would be best if all Civs (at least the Civs whose Vote will will count on getting) had the same State Religion, but that's not necessary to Win.

It's OK that Mehmed II converts to Judaism. We are unlikely to get his Vote anyway. Hopefully, he grows and takes another City from Isabella and thus becomes closer to being our TUN rival.

It's OK that Justinian I has converted to Confucianism, since he has the highest Population at 23% and may become our TUN rival. Medmeh II would be a better TUN rival, since we have poor relations with him anyway.

We can leave Justinaian I as Confucian and overcome the -4 "Wrong" Religion penalty via Theocracy shared Civic; he also has +1 Hidden Diplomatic bonus, so this would be a rather safe plan for gettiing his Vote. We must ensure that his Population becomes significantly less than Mehmed II's. Tokugawa may help us do this by declaring War on Justinian I and taking 1-2 Cities from him or simply stifle Justinian I's growth via War.

We can get Tokugawa's Vote with same State Religion (Hinduism) and Mercantilism.

With Hinduism as our State Religion, its trivial to get Saladin's Vote.

Zara Yaqob could be converted to Hinduism without much risk. Or better yet, we allow him to stay Buddhist and deal with his -3 "Wrong" Religion penalty the same as we do with Justinian I.

It's OK that we lose Isabella's Vote, since she is so small and becoming smaller and the -3 Diplomacy is a bit of a challenge to overcome.

We should build The Apostolic Palace in HorseCopper (or Capital) as Christian or Hindu (we must be sure we can beat Saladin or Tokugawa in TAP Votes in case of Hindu TAP). I believe that AI Civs have a slight preference for the TAP Religion over another Religion they did not found. An AI Civ with its own Religion might possibly be converted to the TAP Religion and might stay there with equal Religious Population. We can convert all our Cities to Hinduism and convert all our Cities to the TAP Religion which can probably also be Hinduism. By not building TAP, we lose some control over it and although it is very unlikely that we lose lose via an AI TAP Win, there is some additional risk in allowing Justinian I to build TAP as Confucian, since he would than be commited to converting at least one City of all Civs to Confucianism.

Hopefully we can help Mehmed II out grow Justinian I so that Mehmed II's Population is significantly higher Population than Justinian I's and he thus Mehmed II become our TUN rival.

We should in general convert only our own Cities to a State Religion. If we spread a second or third Religion into an AI Civ's Cities, they may be more likely to adopt Free Religion.

Sun Tzu Wu

Ozbenno · Jun 17, 2010

Remember we can declare on 2 AI, so we will have negative penalties but can make sure they are civs that won't vote for us and have small population (we can gift captured cities to AI that will vote for us as well if we want to declare far from home).

Sleepless · Jun 17, 2010

I know it's a bit picky but we do have to watch some of the micro. In the capital were working a 2f1c tile and not the corn. Although it might be for only 1 turn but rice city can use the marble tile instead of pf.

Anyway back to the game.

It looks like our 2 possible opponents will be Mehmed or Justinian. As it looks now I would like to (though not right now) adopt Hindu. Attack/cripple mehmed although where we would find the troops from is up for discussion.

This should ensure Sal/Tok vote for us giving us an easy victory. In theory that is.

Next tech. Music is still a possibility whilst the GA hasn't gone.

next cities. I'm hoping Zara hasn't got a settler on that galley near the sugar island also the gold city is not as attractive where Sal has settled, same goes for crab/fish.

Long term tech path I think should still involve Lib using a GS to bulb philo and one on lib. We definitely don't want the AI to tech that and trade around. Certainly should be able to pick up Sci Meth or even physics making it worth the beeline for the free tech.

Sleepless · Jun 17, 2010

Another quick thought Mehmed's war with Isabella. I think we should bribe him to stop as there is a chance Isabella will lose her capital which could cause big problems with danger of her being wiped out. Or if we don't want to stop it at least give her our iron although she does have bronze. Of course Mehmed will attack again afterwards so if we get Feud and he doesn't have it, trade/gift it to him so he vassals her.

haphazard1 · Jun 17, 2010

I was not able to go through the save last night as I got out of work too late.

But I should be able to get to it tonight and post a detailed turnset plan.

We definitely have to keep a close eye on diplo, as well as the Mehmed/Isabella war. We do not want Isabella eliminated, but weakened is fine.

I would not rule anyone out as a possible UN vote for us at this point -- it is still very early. We can guess that Justinian or Mehmed will be our rival, but we should not close off any possibilities if we do not have to.

On the Apostolic Palace...do we really care about building it? With so many civs having Theocracy as a favorite civic, I do not think we are in any real danger of losing to an AI by AP diplo. Having the AP religion is useful, as it gives a hammer bonus to religious buildings of that religion. And with cheap spiritual temples, that could be a nice source of extra hammers for us.

But to build it ourselves will require us to adopt a state religion -- you can not even start the wonder otherwise. And the city must have the state religion, which limits our options even further. I would be just as happy to let one of the AIs spend their hammers on the AP. Unless we spend hammers on missionaries we are not going to have the religious votes to get elected anyway, most likely.

Tech path...this is still unclear what we want to do. Do we research Currency or CoL ourselves? Or do we work on something else while waiting for more AIs to finish them and make them available for trade? If we work on something else, what should that be?

Re Liberalism...Philo has already been discovered by one AI, and may become available through trade. But Sleepless is correct that we should try to discourage the AIs from pushing for Liberalism by taking the free tech ourselves. This will make it much less attractive to the AIs, and we should be able to get a free tech at least equal in value to what we will need to spend to get Liberalism.

Sun Tzu Wu · Jun 17, 2010

We want to build The Apostolic Palace to be sure the its the one true Religion (our State Religion) for the Hammer bonus and to ensure our TAP Opponent, if any, helps us covert the World to our Religion. No AI has even a remote chance of Winning a RL DV. We can build TAP in HorseCopper as Hindu.

If we don't build The Apostolic Palace, Justinian I will probably build it as Confucian. I don't think we want that. Confucian Tokugawa, maybe even Confucian Saladin. No telling how long it would take Confucianism to spread to our Cities that currently lack a Religion.

Sun Tzu Wu

haphazard1 · Jun 17, 2010

Sun Tzu Wu,

Making sure the AP is for our state religion? We don't actually have a state religion. :lol:

Is it really worth many hundreds of hammers to try to lock the AP to a specific religion, when we don't really care what religion it is? We can spread Confucianism (or Taoism, or whatever) to our cities as easily as spreading Hinduism. Yes, we don't actually have those religions right now. But we barely have Hinduism either. And the AP builder -- whoever that might be -- will certainly be sending missionaries our way.

Of course, if we switch to Theocracy those missionaries will not be able to convert our cities....

More thoughts shortly, as I am loading up the save to take a detailed look.

SGOTM 11 - ChokoMisfits

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King

Deity

King

Dancing Bear

King

Dancing Bear

King

Deity

Deity

Fly Fly Away

Deity

Deity

Dancing Bear

Deity

Dancing Bear

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