SGOTM 11 - ChokoMisfits

Research:

Research or Trade for the following Technologies in the order specified:

Civil Service -> Metal Casting -> Machinery -> Optics -> Astronomy -> Printing Press -> Scientific Method -> Physics -> Electricity -> Radio -> Mass Media

There will be no deviations from the beeline to Mass Media, except for Civil Service to run Bureaucracy and Liberalism to get free Scientific Method, Physics, Electricity, or Radio.

Trades outside of Beeline to Mass Media:

Guilds -> Banking to run Tokugawa's favorite Civic, Mercantilism

Gunpowder -> Chemistry -> Steel + Military Science to build Canons and Grenadiers

Gunpowder -> Replaceable Parts -> Rifling to build Riflemen

Nationalism to run Nationhood to draft Macemen, Musketmen or Riflemen.

I disagree somewhat with the beeline and others, especially since there is not any emphasis on which order to pursue them. A great deal depends on what (and when) we can get in trade.

Civil Service we definitely want, and it is not yet known to any AI so it will also make good trade bait. So this is our immediate target. But what to research after that? Metal Casting and Machinery are already known to two AIs -- researching these ourselves seems wasteful. I would prefer to research Liberalism after CS, up to 1 turn (or a fraction of 1 turn) remaining. No AI currently knows Education, or even Paper (I believe), so we have a window to research the tech and then see how far we can get before any AI is close and how expensive a tech we can take with the freebie. And the time spent on Liberalism will hopefully be enough that we can get Metal Casting and Machinery in trade.

We also need to keep our bulbing path in mind -- Gunpowder will open Chemistry to GS bulbing, which then opens Biology. Useful techs, and we may want to go that way, but it would be a significant diversion from our beeline path.

Additional non-beeline techs to consider/trade for: Drama (for Globe Theater in PigFish), Constitution (for our UB for happiness and EP)

Diplomacy:

Observe Worst Enemies and try to avoid trades with them when possible. Do not accept demands to stop trade, except possibly with Mehmed II or Isabella (we either don't need their Votes or in the case of Mehmed II we plan to make him our TUN Opponent.

As Sleepless has noted, we would like Mehmed as our opponent, but there is no guarantee this will happen. I think there is a decent chance -- Mehmed has a lot of land and more still available to expand into, so he should be large enough in population to be our eventual rival. A lot depends on the Justinian/Tokugawa war.

But let's not just write off Mehmed and (especially) Isabella. It will be difficult (or worse) to get either's votes, but not impossible. If we have to choose between them and someone else, we should definitely favor the other (more likely to vote for us) AI. But we should do what we can to improve relations -- resources, Open Borders, etc. We might get lucky with them asking for help that we can give, giving us a chance for some +diplo points.

Remain in Theocracy for Favorite Civic Diplomatic bonus with Zara Yaqob, Saladin, Isabella and Justinian I. Adoption of other Religious Civics should be avoided or kept as brief as possible (5 turns), since Favorite Civic Diplomatic bonus can decay rapidly.

Does anyone know the exact rule on this? I was under the impression that short periods spent in other civics would not significantly impact the shared Theocracy bonus, once we switched back to it. We may be able to use some brief periods in Free Religion, or Organized Religion.

Minimal effort (none) will be expended to improve relations with Mehmed II or Isabella.

As I said above, if we get a chance to improve relations with either that does not cost us with other (more likely to vote for us) civs then we should take it.

A trade to Zara Yaqob will be very lopsided to improve trade relations from 0 to +4.

A trade to Saladin will be slightly lopsided to improve trade relations from +3 to +4.

Getting +4 with Zara is likely to be difficult/expensive. The "free and fair trade" bonus is affected by the number of turns you have known a civ, and we have known Zara almost from the beginning of the game. If we can gift him something known to everyone (or almost everyone) else, great. But we should not give away anything too valuable, especially anything useful in war.

OasisWheat:
Grow to Max Happiness Cap 6P -> 12P
build Courthouse (whip) -> resume Longbowman -> resume Spearman (Engineering -> Pikeman)
Workers build two Grassland Farms (via Civil Service)

Keep an eye on hammer decay for the longbow and spear.

HorseCopper:
Grow to Max Happiness Cap 6P -> 9P
build Courthouse (whip) -> resume Longbowman
alternative University of Sankore (GS points if completed; 2 x Hammers input in Wealth if not)
Workers build four Grassland Farms (via Civil Service)

I do not think Sankore is useful for us -- we have no state religion, so it would be purely for the GPP. Better to run one more scientist rather than spending all those hammers. Sistine should be considered, as ianw1610 mentioned, just in case we end up needing to fall back on a culture victory.

Also, I do not know if the grassland farms are needed. Our happy cap is not so large that we could work all those tiles and the specialists the extra food would support. We will probably just work the river-side farms (FP and grass) and the grass copper. All other pop should be scientists.

PigFish:
Grow to Max Happiness Cap after whipping Courthouse
build - continue Settler -> Courthouse (whip) -> Harbor (whip)
Workers build six Grassland Farms

As with HorseCopper, I do not think we need the grassland farms. Work the food resources, the cows, and (maybe) the lakes. Everything else should be scientists, as our happy cap allows.

RiceMarble:
Grow to Max Happiness Cap 8P -> 9P
build - continue Courthouse (whip) -> Harbor (whip) -> Galley (whip)
Workers build seven Grassland Farms and one Floodplains Farm (via Civil Service)

Why another galley?

The floodplains (off the river) should be farmed, as it can support itself plus one specialist. But again the grass farms are probably not worth it at this stage.

Workers will preChop Forests before and after above mentioned Farms are completed.

The grass farms not on rivers are not an urgent priority, I think. They can be worked on, but over time -- there is not a huge rush to complete them, as we should be running Caste scientists from our best food tiles rather than marginal grasslands (taking 3 pop to get 1 scientist).

I'm still struggling to see how we can get mehmed to be our opponent? Justinian will win in his war against Tok unless we help Tok which loses us Just's votes and probably end up with Tok as our opponent instead of mehmed. Much better to reduce Mehmed to a couple of cities and win with Sal/Tok's/Zara's votes. With memhed backward we shouldn't have any problem rolling over him. My favoured war nowdays is Curr/Cav for speed and against LBs shouldn't be to hard.

I don't understand why you think Justinian will roll over Tokugawa? I forgot to check -- does Toku have iron? He has Machinery, so if he does he will have Protective crossbows which should give Justinian plenty of trouble. Toku also gets cheap barracks and free combat I for his melee units. He should not be an easy target.

As for wars...even better to win the vote with Justinian/Saladin/Tokugawa/Zara voting for us. :D Maybe even Isabella, since she will hate Mehmed. Wars are costly and take a lot of time/resources. If we can avoid fighting, all the better.

This leads on to another point used by Murky Waters in the previous SGOTM. Privateers? Could be a good use of getting GGs but obviously need chem/gp. Hopefully we will no more once our axe gets to the barb land mass.

Privateers would require Chemistry along with Astronomy, which would take us off our beeline by a good bit. They could be useful, so we should keep them in mind. But unless we get them before anyone else has Chemistry/Astro, they will just be sunk by frigates.

I think we should ensure that we have a Spy fortified in each of our cities, because we are at risk of our technologies being stolen and then traded around.

If we want to consider the alternate victory condition (Cultural) we need to make a decision now, as the Sistine Chapel is still available to build...

Stealing techs takes a lot of EP, well more than any AI should be able to manage at this stage of the game. Unless someone gets a Great Spy, of course -- we should watch the turn updates carefully in case anyone generates one, and check our EP ratios. If we get infiltrated, it will be obvious in the EP ratios.

Some spies could still be useful to guard our cities against poisoned water, etc. They cost hammers and unit maintenance, though. Short term I would like some more military, especially some longbows, to boost our power rating and give us something resembling real defense. :lol:

Building Sistine somewhere just as a backup plan is a good idea. We will be running lots of specialists, and the extra culture could be useful for tile control and defense.
 
Justinian is one of the best AI (especially at deity glad this is emp) but I effectively gifted Tok Feud so he would have protective LBs which against an emperor Justinian shouldn't be to much of a problem holding his cities. By the same thing Tok is not going to get very far imho taking Justinian lands so hopefully there will be a stalemate there. The problem being all the negatives for refusing to join the war/stop trading etc.

Tech. I'm fine with going CS then Lib. We do need badly to find what we need to get the fur as that will have a very big effect on our tech path.

Is it worth adopting vassalage for 5 turns till CS is in for the free troop cost?

Not sure on how quick the bonus diplo for shared civics last but it doesn't seem to go that quickly to me though never really taken note.

Another quick thought about privateers (if we need chem/steel etc) We can starve Justinians coastal cities by blockading reducing his coastal pop a lot which might help push Mehmed in to first pop place. :)

Just to add I will be away from Wed - Monday next week with probable lack of access to the Internet.

Also I would like to see another 2 settlers one for horse/fish and one to work all the hills north of the capital which can just produce units. Working windmills it would have enough food.

Good Luck on your turnset Sun Tzu Wu
 
I'm still struggling to see how we can get mehmed to be our opponent? Justinian will win in his war against Tok unless we help Tok which loses us Just's votes and probably end up with Tok as our opponent instead of mehmed. Much better to reduce Mehmed to a couple of cities and win with Sal/Tok's/Zara's votes. With memhed backward we shouldn't have any problem rolling over him. My favoured war nowdays is Curr/Cav for speed and against LBs shouldn't be to hard.

Good point. I hadn't done a Population count until now:

Code:
AI Leader    Pop    Percent
=======      ===     ====
Justinian I   83     28.0
Tokugawa      42     14.0
Saladin       49     16.5
Gandhi        46     15.5
Zara Yaqob    28      9.4
Isabella      18      6.0
Mehmed II     40     13.5
Barbarians    00     00.0

Ensuring that Mehmed II has the highest Population will be very hard. Since Justinian I has more than double the Population of Mehmed II, we would would need to join Tokugawa's War against Justinian I and make him a Vassal. However, the Diplomatic cost of that War would be too much, unless we can convince Zara Yoqob and Saladin to join us for the Shared War bonus. We would need to force Justinian I to become our Vassal.

I would prefer a War against Justinian I as opposed to Mehmed II simply because Justinian I has twice the Population of Mehmed II and thus twice the Spoils of War reward.

With the whip we can get 2 currs per 4 turns out of big cities. Main problem would be the shipping overseas. I'd probably prefer to build a few galleys and upgrade to galleons.

Cuirassiers require Military Tradition, Gunpowder and Horseback Riding and Cavalry require Military Tradition, Rifling and Horseback Riding. I'd prefer Canons (Steel) and Musketmen (Gunpowder) or Grenadiers (Military Science) or Riflemen (Rifling).

This leads on to another point used by Murky Waters in the previous SGOTM. Privateers? Could be a good use of getting GGs but obviously need chem/gp. Hopefully we will no more once our axe gets to the barb land mass.

Privateers require Chemistry and Astronomy. We could get 1-2 Great Generals via Privateer action; they are especially effective against Enemies lacking Chemistry or Astronomy.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Revisions are denoted in this font color.

Research:

Research or Trade for the following Technologies in the order specified:

Civil Service -> Liberalism (till 1t left) -> Metal Casting -> Machinery -> Optics -> Astronomy -> Printing Press -> Scientific Method -> Physics -> Electricity -> Radio -> Mass Media

There will be no deviations from the beeline to Mass Media, except for Civil Service to run Bureaucracy and Liberalism to get free Scientific Method, Physics, Electricity, or Radio.

Trades outside of Beeline to Mass Media (since these may affect GS bulbing paths, the Game will be paused so all members can discuss pros and cons of the trade given the current Game situation):

Guilds -> Banking to run Tokugawa's favorite Civic, Mercantilism

Gunpowder -> Chemistry -> Steel + Military Science to build Canons and Grenadiers

Gunpowder -> Replaceable Parts -> Rifling to build Riflemen

Nationalism to run Nationhood to draft Macemen, Musketmen or Riflemen.

Drama to build Theater and Globe Theatre.

Civics:

Immediately adopt Vassalage for reduced unit maintenance costs until Civil Service is completed.

After completing Civil Service, immediately adopt Bureaucracy. Serfdom adopted with Bureaucracy would allow faster completion of larger numbers of Farms post Civil Service, but prior to the time where Caste System would be more effective.

If all Courthouses (none in Capital) are whipped, adopt Caste System at the same time as Bureaucracy. However, it may make sense to delay Caste System by five or more turns to maximize Population in most of the six earliest Cities.

Diplomacy:

Observe Worst Enemies and try to avoid trades with them when possible. Do not accept demands to stop trade, except possibly with Mehmed II or Isabella (we either don't need their Votes or in the case of Mehmed II we plan to make him our TUN Opponent. This means we don't gain Diplomacy Mehmed II or Isabella at the cost of just -1 Diplomacy of another AI, except when there is a consensus of members in favor of the Diplomatic "action".

Remain in Theocracy for Favorite Civic Diplomatic bonus with Zara Yaqob, Saladin, Isabella and Justinian I. Adoption of other Religious Civics should be avoided or kept as brief as possible (5 turns), since Favorite Civic Diplomatic bonus can decay rapidly. It may require 10t lapse for significant decay to occur, but I don't know the formulas involved.

Reasonable effort (negatives to other Civs must be discussed) will be expended to improve relations with Mehmed II or Isabella.

A trade to Zara Yaqob will be very lopsided to improve trade relations from 0 to +4.

A trade to Saladin will be slightly lopsided to improve trade relations from +3 to +4.

Trades to improve trade relations must be Technologies that most Civs already have.

Tokugawa's Resource trade relations will be improved from +1 to +2 by letting current Resource trades slowly progress in this direction or by addition or a Resource we don't need to accelerate this bonus.

Espionage:

All 4 Espionage points (per turn) have been applied to either Zara Yaqob or Saladin. That's OK, since we will soon build several Courthouses that will each generate 2 Espionage points (per turn); we can then easily apply several Espionage points against the remaining four Opponents without converting Commerce to Espionage. Commerce to Espionage will be a good after we complete Mass Media.

Cities:


Note Workers will preChop Forests, build Roads, improve other Tiles, etc., when the City has sufficient Grassland Farms to allow maximum Specialists within Happiness Cap. There may not be an exclusive Grassland Farm priority as indicated under each City below. Builds may be accelerated via Forest Chops, especially the two Great Wonders.


Capital:
Grow to Max Happiness Cap 9P -> 13P -> 14P
build The Hagia Sophia (GE points if completed; 2 x Hammers input in Wealth if not)
Workers build three riverside (RS) Plains Cottages and two Grassland Cottages

OasisWheat:
Grow to Max Happiness Cap 6P -> 12P
build Courthouse (whip) -> resume Longbowman -> resume Spearman (Engineering -> Pikeman)
Workers build two Grassland Farms (via Civil Service)

HorseCopper:
Grow to Max Happiness Cap 6P -> 9P
build The Sistine Chapel (GA points, 2 Cpt per Specialist, and 5 Cpt per State Religion building if completed; 2 x Hammers input in Wealth if not) -> resume Longbowman
Workers build four Grassland Farms (via Civil Service)

PigFish:
Grow to Max Happiness Cap after whipping Courthouse
build - continue Settler -> Courthouse (whip) -> Harbor (whip) -> Settler
Workers build six Grassland Farms

RiceMarble:
Grow to Max Happiness Cap 8P -> 9P
build - continue Courthouse (whip) -> Harbor (whip) -> Galley (whip; we should have a 2nd Galley near home to shuttle Land units between Continents)
Workers build seven Grassland Farms and one Floodplains Farm (via Civil Service)

ThreeClams:
Grow to Max Happiness Cap 7P -> 10P
build - continue Courthouse (whip) -> Harbor (whip) -> Settler
Workers build one Grassland Farm (via Civil Service)

CrabTown:
Grow to Max Happiness Cap 1P -> 8P
build - continue Granary (whip) -> Lighthouse (whip)
Workers build two Grassland Farms (via Civil Service)

SilverWhale:
Settle immediately; Grow to Max Happiness Cap
build Granary -> Lighthouse
Workers build new Silver Mine

DeerFish:
Settle in 6t via Settler being built in PigFish; Grow to Max Happiness Cap
build Granary -> Lighthouse
Workers build two Grassland Farms

Workers will preChop Forests before and after above mentioned Farms are completed.

Exploration:

Galley with Axeman will continue to Island SW of Justinian I's Domain where Barbarians dwell to see what Terrain and Resources are located there.

Warrior near Justinian I/Tokugawa border will observe military build up on both sides along the Border and beyond it.

Feedback:

Please respond with your corrections, suggestions and comments, etc. I tried to incorporate all suggestions, one way or another; please let me know of any I missed or inadequately addressed.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Revised turnset plan looks good to me, Sun Tzu Wu. Good luck!

Wow...I had not realized Justinian was that dominant in population. :eek: 2-to-1 pop advantage over Tokugawa could be trouble, although protective longbows and crossbows should make taking Japanese cities difficult. Even if he does not take any of Toku's cities, Justinian will almost certainly be our UN rival unless we fight him ourselves. Figures that our strongest ally would be our rival. :(
 
What is our population BTW?

We (Gandhi) have a population of 46, according to Sun Tzu Wu's table.

By my calculations, the Barbarian population of the world is 21.
 
Since there doesn't appear to be any suggested changes to the revised turn set plan, I plan to start the turn set soon. I expect to complete it and post (at least a summary of the) results later this evening in around 3-4 hours.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
It all seemed good to me. Probably last post from me in a few days though might have time to look at the new save before I go away.

Good Luck Sun Tzu Wu
 
I plan to finish my Turn Set next evening.

I have uploaded after 6t. No issues; just lack of Play time this evening.

Highlights:

We completed Civil Service in 4t. Zara Yaqob traded Metal Casting + 20W for Music. Tokugawa traded Machinery for Currency + Compass + Code of Laws. Whipped four Courthouses.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 385 AD to 475 AD:

Turn 199, 385 AD: You have discovered Philosophy!
Turn 199, 385 AD: SilverWhale has been founded.
Turn 199, 385 AD: Alhazen (Great Scientist) has been born in Gondar (Zara Yaqob)!

Turn 200, 400 AD: Euclid (Great Scientist) has been born in HorseCopper (Gandhi)!
Turn 200, 400 AD: Socrates (Great Scientist) has been born in Edirne (Mehmed II)!
Turn 200, 400 AD: Saladin adopts Caste System!

Turn 202, 430 AD: You have discovered Civil Service!
Turn 202, 430 AD: Hernan Cortes (Great General) has been born in Seville (Isabella)!

Turn 203, 445 AD: Isabella has 1 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 203, 445 AD: Justinian I won't trade Metal Casting
Turn 203, 445 AD: Saladin will trade Horseback Riding
Turn 203, 445 AD: Gandhi adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 203, 445 AD: OasisWheat will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 203, 445 AD: RiceMarble will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 203, 445 AD: ThreeClams will grow to size 7 on the next turn.

Turn 204, 460 AD: OasisWheat has grown to size 7.
Turn 204, 460 AD: OasisWheat can hurry Courthouse for 3? with 16? overflow and +1? for 15 turns.
Turn 204, 460 AD: PigFish can hurry Courthouse for 4? with 12? overflow and +1? for 49 turns.
Turn 204, 460 AD: RiceMarble has grown to size 7.
Turn 204, 460 AD: ThreeClams has grown to size 7.
Turn 204, 460 AD: Tokugawa has 60 gold available for trade.
Turn 204, 460 AD: Saladin has 80 gold available for trade.
Turn 204, 460 AD: Saladin has 1 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 204, 460 AD: Saladin will trade Metal Casting
Turn 204, 460 AD: Zara Yaqob will trade Metal Casting
Turn 204, 460 AD: FishDeer has been founded.
Turn 204, 460 AD: Capital will grow to size 11 on the next turn.
Turn 204, 460 AD: PigFish will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 204, 460 AD: You have discovered Metal Casting!
Turn 204, 460 AD: You have constructed a Courthouse in OasisWheat. Work has now begun on a Spearman.
Turn 204, 460 AD: Tokugawa adopts Vassalage!
Turn 204, 460 AD: Zara Yaqob has founded Adulis.

Turn 205, 475 AD: Capital has grown to size 11.
Turn 205, 475 AD: OasisWheat can hurry Spearman for 1? with 36? overflow and +1? for 29 turns.
Turn 205, 475 AD: Tokugawa will trade Machinery
Turn 205, 475 AD: Saladin will trade Machinery
Turn 205, 475 AD: PigFish will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 205, 475 AD: RiceMarble will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 205, 475 AD: You have discovered Machinery!

Autolog file:

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 199/750 (385 AD) [29-Jun-2010 20:52:50]
Capital begins: The Hagia Sophia (75 turns)
OasisWheat begins: Courthouse (17 turns)
HorseCopper begins: The Sistine Chapel (57 turns)
A Mine was destroyed near Delhi
Delhi founded
SilverWhale begins: Granary (90 turns)
100% Research: 329 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -55 per turn, 166 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in RiceMarble
The whip was applied in ThreeClams
Capital grows to size 10
RiceMarble finishes: Courthouse
ThreeClams grows to size 5
ThreeClams finishes: Courthouse

Turn 200/750 (400 AD) [29-Jun-2010 21:41:38]
RiceMarble begins: Harbor (30 turns)
ThreeClams begins: Harbor (30 turns)
100% Research: 335 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
0% Gold: -49 per turn, 111 in the bank

After End Turn:
HorseCopper grows to size 7
Euclid (Great Scientist) born in HorseCopper
CrabTown grows to size 2

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Saladin(Arabia) from 'Slavery' to 'Caste System'

Turn 201/750 (415 AD) [29-Jun-2010 22:08:07]
100% Research: 322 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
0% Gold: -52 per turn, 62 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in RiceMarble
RiceMarble grows to size 6
ThreeClams grows to size 6

Turn 202/750 (430 AD) [29-Jun-2010 22:35:26]
A Cottage was built near Capital
50% Research: 239 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
50% Gold: 12 per turn, 10 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Civil Service
PigFish finishes: Settler

Turn 203/750 (445 AD) [29-Jun-2010 22:51:24]
Research begun: Liberalism (12 Turns)
PigFish begins: Courthouse (45 turns)
SilverWhale begins: Lighthouse (90 turns)
0% Research: 43 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
100% Gold: 100 per turn, 22 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in ThreeClams
OasisWheat grows to size 7
RiceMarble grows to size 7
ThreeClams grows to size 7

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Gandhi(India) from 'Barbarism' to 'Bureaucracy'

Turn 204/750 (460 AD) [29-Jun-2010 23:58:57]
OasisWheat begins: Longbowman (7 turns)
Delhi founded
FishDeer begins: Granary (90 turns)
Tech traded to Zara Yaqob (Ethiopia): Music
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Metal Casting
100% Research: 376 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
0% Gold: -66 per turn, 142 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in OasisWheat
The whip was applied in PigFish
Capital grows to size 11
OasisWheat finishes: Courthouse
PigFish grows to size 6
PigFish finishes: Courthouse

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Tokugawa(Japan) from 'Barbarism' to 'Vassalage'

Turn 205/750 (475 AD) [30-Jun-2010 00:51:25]
PigFish begins: Harbor (30 turns)
Tech traded to Tokugawa (Japan): Currency
Tech traded to Tokugawa (Japan): Compass
Tech traded to Tokugawa (Japan): Code of Laws
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Machinery

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Well all seems good. Be much better when we can see the barb lands, the galley is not to far away.

Still like to get another settler or 2 out and would also have bulbed Lib just before we got machinery in trade. We'll have to finish it manually now. Hopefully someone will go for optics before us and we can trade for that as well. Other than that we are doing well on our direct route to MM so looking good.

As said earlier won't be able to see the game for 6 days so good luck all.
 
Sounds good. It shouldn't be a problem to manually research Liberalism, as we need something like 3 GSs to bulb Physics plus a further 4 GSs to bulb Electricity (assuming we avoid Gunpowder in the meantime).

Would it be a good idea to build a Forge in the Capital, and run an Engineer specialist (as we are still aiming to get a Great Engineer)??
 
Yep it was an after thought to me as well. We should certainly have a forge in pig/fish/ 3 clams and the capital running a GE permanently. Also gives 3 happies as a big plus.
 
Looks very good so far, Sun Tzu Wu. :thumbsup:

We got the key techs we were looking for with Metal Casting and Machinery, without giving up anything really important. :) We are clear to self-research Liberalism, which we should have plenty of time for since none of the AIs had Paper (or Education) a few turns ago.

What would a GS bulb at this point? Printing Press, if I am reading the list correctly? Certainly a tech we need for our beeline (prereq for SciMeth), and big enough for a bulb to get full value. Should we go ahead and bulb one GS into it, then finish it later?

Also, where did Zara settle his new city of Adulis? I did not think he had much left as far as sites, unless he went overseas to the east. Need to check the save.

I agree we want forges and engineers in all the cities we are likely to get GP from in the future. We still need an engineer for the UN, and the extra hammers certainly will not hurt. The increased production is well worth it as well, plus the happiness boost from gold, silver, and gems. We should probably build forges just about everywhere, in fact, as the cities develop.

We can now build windmills, and produce crossbows, macemen, and triremes. We should keep the possibilities in mind.

Good luck with the second half of your turnset, Sun Tsu Wu!
 
I think we should go ahead and research Printing Press next, before putting any beakers into Liberalism. That way we will get an immediate benefit from the Towns and Villages in the Capital, which will be further enhanced by Bureaucracy.
 
Still like to get another settler or 2 out and would also have bulbed Lib just before we got machinery in trade. We'll have to finish it manually now. Hopefully someone will go for optics before us and we can trade for that as well. Other than that we are doing well on our direct route to MM so looking good.

The Plan includes a Settler in both PigFish and ThreeClams after their Population recovers to Happiness Cap (or reasonably close to it).

I liked the Liberalism bulb idea as well, but it wasn't in the Plan. Sorry, if I didn't make that clear. There were no bulbs in the Plan; All Great People were to be saved for later bulbs (Physics -> Electricity [GS]; Radio -> Multimedia [GA]).

Sounds good. It shouldn't be a problem to manually research Liberalism, as we need something like 3 GSs to bulb Physics plus a further 4 GSs to bulb Electricity (assuming we avoid Gunpowder in the meantime).

Would it be a good idea to build a Forge in the Capital, and run an Engineer specialist (as we are still aiming to get a Great Engineer)??

As noted above, GSs will be saved for Physics and Electricity, but note possible deviation to bulb Printing Press below.

See Forge comment below.

Yep it was an after thought to me as well. We should certainly have a forge in pig/fish/ 3 clams and the capital running a GE permanently. Also gives 3 happies as a big plus.

I can try whipping Forges, but they require a lot of Hammers to build and thus many Population must be consumed to whip them.

We got the key techs we were looking for with Metal Casting and Machinery, without giving up anything really important. :) We are clear to self-research Liberalism, which we should have plenty of time for since none of the AIs had Paper (or Education) a few turns ago.

Yes, getting Metal Casting and Machinery was like "taking candy from a baby", after all the Planets moved into conjunction that is. We gained +1 to +2 Diplomacy for Providing Resources with Tokugawa, and were given that rare opportunity when Tokugawa will trade a "Monopoly" Technology that only one other AI has it. It must have be his +9 Diplomacy that did it and I'm sure he would not have been willing to turn Machinery even one turn later.

What would a GS bulb at this point? Printing Press, if I am reading the list correctly? Certainly a tech we need for our beeline (prereq for SciMeth), and big enough for a bulb to get full value. Should we go ahead and bulb one GS into it, then finish it later?

I'd like to consider using a GS right now to bulb Printing Press, complete it and go back to Liberalism. However, I have some doubts that the additional +1 Cpt for each Village and Town, even after +50% Bureauvracy will be worth the shortened life of The Great Library (12 Bpt).

Also, where did Zara settle his new city of Adulis? I did not think he had much left as far as sites, unless he went overseas to the east. Need to check the save.

SE corner of our Continent; one of our Warriors is adjacent to it.

I agree we want forges and engineers in all the cities we are likely to get GP from in the future. We still need an engineer for the UN, and the extra hammers certainly will not hurt. The increased production is well worth it as well, plus the happiness boost from gold, silver, and gems. We should probably build forges just about everywhere, in fact, as the cities develop.


Again, would it be reasonable to whip Forges, given the number of Population each such whip would consume?


We can now build windmills, and produce crossbows, macemen, and triremes. We should keep the possibilities in mind.

Yes, Macemen in particular would be good to send to the Barbarian infested Islands.

I think we should go ahead and research Printing Press next, before putting any beakers into Liberalism. That way we will get an immediate benefit from the Towns and Villages in the Capital, which will be further enhanced by Bureaucracy.


We can bulb Printing Press next and get a truly immediate return on investment. Would it be worth the shortened The Great Library life span though?


I'll load the Game from the server and examine these two options (denoted in this Dark Red font above). If I have concerns about going forward without further input, I will delay about 24 hours for a full round of feedback. If I notice any posting a suggestion to wait for comment, I'll delay 24 hours.


Otherwise, I will proceed to finish my Turn Set with my own Answers to these two Questions that I consider non-controversial.


Sun Tzu Wu
 

Again, would it be reasonable to whip Forges, given the number of Population each such whip would consume?

A Forge is 180H (same as a Courthouse) which is at the threshold where Buildings become hard to whip, but not too hard for a City with at least +6 Fpt potential growth.

I have concluded that it is reasonable to whip a Forge with a Population of over 6. If the City's Population is 6-7, about 45 of 180H must be completed, before a 3P whip can complete the Forge. If the City's Population is 8+, at least 1 of 180H must be completed, before a 4P whip can complete the Forge. This is best done in Cities with preferably +6 or more Fpt to quickly regrow Population that was whipped away.


We can bulb Printing Press next and get a truly immediate return on investment. Would it be worth the shortened The Great Library life span though?

Capital has only one Town and two Villages and the prospect for future Villages is nearly 20t from now.

Bulbing Printing Press would not even come close to providing the lost Beakers from a shortened The Great Library life span.

There is very little prospect of an AI completing Printing Press while completing Liberalism, so there is no reason to delay normal researching of Printing Press now. Thus, the Research path becomes:

Printing Press -> Liberalism (short 1t of completing it) -> Optics (trade) -> Astronomy -> Scientific Method -> Physics -> Electricity -> Radio -> Mass Media

Note that Astronomy (build Galleons) will be started immediately after Optics trade and the bulk of Liberalism (short 1t) will be completed before Scientific Method (obsoletes The Great Library).

I'll load the Game from the server and examine these two options (denoted in this Dark Red font above). If I have concerns about going forward without further input, I will delay about 24 hours for a full round of feedback. If I notice any posting a suggestion to wait for comment, I'll delay 24 hours.


Otherwise, I will proceed to finish my Turn Set with my own Answers to these two Questions that I consider non-controversial.

I have chosen the latter option above. I will resume Play in about 15 minutes from now (03:00 UTC).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
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