As for where to settle Sugardaddy, I think where the settler is already is the best, and on the hill in the middle (1N of the settler) a very close second. Settling on the sugar is a waste of the resource, and I think it's better to save a hill square by not settling on it than save a grassland, as we can't irrigate the grass, it won't make a good commerce city, and we have plenty of two food tiles from the water. A third hammer makes it reasonable for production.
SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I wouldn't want to even self-research Chemistry to get Biology, I'd assumed we could get the pre-requisites from AIs. I'm probably still too stuck on the crazy AI tech speeds of immortal, our current tech-leader position still seems quite shocking to me with the general lack of priority we've put into the economy so far (although I suppose the 'lead' part is mostly the religious techs that we've been getting through bulbs and the Oracle, in place of running a particularly strong economy). Maybe we dont want to trade so much stuff away anyway. Winning a war without gunpowder seems like a difficult prospect to me, but who knows maybe we can win the game with no DOW at all, if so it's likely to be the quickest as war costs a lot of time.
Dhoomstriker
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Sugar Daddy
The fact that it gets "off-continent" Trade Route bonuses makes it "Commercial enough" of a City.
In that case, I'd like to whip a Work Boat for that City elsewhere, since it will take a really long time to self-build one. After Caste System does its magic, the Fish can be improved and worked, and then we can start slowly pop-rushing buildings, starting with a Lighthouse.
More Police State
As much as you guys might hate me for it, once I've switched into Caste System and Republic, I'll have to switch out of them again and back into Police State and Slavery. Why? Well, it turns out that WORK BOATS benefit from Police State. Too bad I hadn't realised that fact at the start of my turnset, or I might have optimized their whipping a little bit better.
Anyway, I'll still get the benefit for a few whipped Work Boats this way. I'd like to whip them earlier, before switching out of Police State the first time, but then I'd either have to stop working an improved Fish or Clam just to hire an Artist or else I'd have nowhere to send the Work Boats, as the cultural borders would not have expanded over the Crab, two Clams, and Sugar Daddy's Fish. It's a Catch 22 situation, unless we plan to go back into Police State, which is what I'm going to have to do (well, I won't HAVE to use Police State, but the bonus Hammers are more than WORTH doing so, and we really aren't running Specialists anywhere, except when we run Caste System, anyway).
Okay, what you say about the Grassland square makes sense. I was tempted to save it for a Cottage, but you're right--that City isn't supposed to be working Cottages--it is going to grow by working the Sugar and the Sea and then use the Hills for balanced production.
The fact that it gets "off-continent" Trade Route bonuses makes it "Commercial enough" of a City.
In that case, I'd like to whip a Work Boat for that City elsewhere, since it will take a really long time to self-build one. After Caste System does its magic, the Fish can be improved and worked, and then we can start slowly pop-rushing buildings, starting with a Lighthouse.
More Police State
As much as you guys might hate me for it, once I've switched into Caste System and Republic, I'll have to switch out of them again and back into Police State and Slavery. Why? Well, it turns out that WORK BOATS benefit from Police State. Too bad I hadn't realised that fact at the start of my turnset, or I might have optimized their whipping a little bit better.
Anyway, I'll still get the benefit for a few whipped Work Boats this way. I'd like to whip them earlier, before switching out of Police State the first time, but then I'd either have to stop working an improved Fish or Clam just to hire an Artist or else I'd have nowhere to send the Work Boats, as the cultural borders would not have expanded over the Crab, two Clams, and Sugar Daddy's Fish. It's a Catch 22 situation, unless we plan to go back into Police State, which is what I'm going to have to do (well, I won't HAVE to use Police State, but the bonus Hammers are more than WORTH doing so, and we really aren't running Specialists anywhere, except when we run Caste System, anyway).
Dhoomstriker
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A useful BUFFY Setting for seeing Leader Names plus Civ Names on the main game screen
Ctrl + Alt + O should open up your BUFFY Settings.
There, look for the Scoreboard tab.
On the Scoreboard tab, at the top left, is a heading labelled "General:." Immediately below this heading is the option that you want to change: the Display Name.
Set the Display Name to be "Leader / Civ."
That way, you'll see Leader names along with Civ names on the main game screen (the list of Leaders in the bottom right of the screen). I think that previous versions of Civ showed the Leader names, but for some reason BUFFY seems to default to showing the Civ name, which thus gets confusing if you aren't used to referring to the AIs by their Civ name instead of their Leader name.
This way, we'll have both visible whenever you play (so that it is clear with whom you should trade, etc) and whenever you take screenshots (so that it is clear when we comment on each others' screenshots).
Thank you for your time in setting up this option, if it wasn't already set up for you.
Ctrl + Alt + O should open up your BUFFY Settings.
There, look for the Scoreboard tab.
On the Scoreboard tab, at the top left, is a heading labelled "General:." Immediately below this heading is the option that you want to change: the Display Name.
Set the Display Name to be "Leader / Civ."
That way, you'll see Leader names along with Civ names on the main game screen (the list of Leaders in the bottom right of the screen). I think that previous versions of Civ showed the Leader names, but for some reason BUFFY seems to default to showing the Civ name, which thus gets confusing if you aren't used to referring to the AIs by their Civ name instead of their Leader name.
This way, we'll have both visible whenever you play (so that it is clear with whom you should trade, etc) and whenever you take screenshots (so that it is clear when we comment on each others' screenshots).
Thank you for your time in setting up this option, if it wasn't already set up for you.
Mitchum
Deity
OK, what's the plan going forward? Are you going to play a few more turns? Or are you working on another mini PPP to optimize build orders, civic switches and worker actions?
Does Toku have Silver, Sugar or Incense? If not, two of those three may get us the ivory...
Does Toku have Silver, Sugar or Incense? If not, two of those three may get us the ivory...
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
Sorry, I worked Friday night and was up for the Germany -Argentina game so I fell asleep early.
I like Sugar Daddy in place.
I think that a city to the west is the better choice. It might cause some conflict with sal but all we need it for is to get Bud and build a missionary. Once that is done and the Missionary spreads, we can give the city to Sal and he will have a crappy city to drain on his economy.
Izzy is the only scare here. There is no need to keep Confused for Zara's sake. He is too weak to worry about. I'm more worried that Izzy will wipe him out. We also need to expect the last AI to be Hindu thanks to Izzy.
Play on and good job!!
I like Sugar Daddy in place.
I think that a city to the west is the better choice. It might cause some conflict with sal but all we need it for is to get Bud and build a missionary. Once that is done and the Missionary spreads, we can give the city to Sal and he will have a crappy city to drain on his economy.
Izzy is the only scare here. There is no need to keep Confused for Zara's sake. He is too weak to worry about. I'm more worried that Izzy will wipe him out. We also need to expect the last AI to be Hindu thanks to Izzy.
Play on and good job!!
Dhoomstriker
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Next Steps
I'm trying to get enough Worker actions and build orders laid out to get us to the point of landing on the eastern landmass and then having a couple of more turns left to explore around it with an Archer and a Galley, so that I can play up until that point and then seek feedback. Barring us meeting the other AI or encountering Demands, there shouldn't be much need to stop play before then, but I do want to get it all worked out.
There are already a lot of beautiful efficiencies built into what I've got, but I'm not yet done, so please be patient.
Trading Resources with Toku
Since we were "given" 2 extra Silvers in a "poor settling location," it is likely that few or none of the AIs have Silver, making it a strategic decision to be forced to settle by those extra Silvers if you are low on Resources to trade around. That's how I'd set the game up, anyway, but I don't have the game open anymore and I forget who wanted Silver and who didn't.
The issue with the Ivory was that he would not trade it to us when he was Pleased with us. He likely treats it as a "Military Resource" and likely will only trade Military Resources when Friendly. So, even if we had 10 Resources to offer, he wouldn't be giving us Ivory.
I'm working on another Partial PPP.
I'm trying to get enough Worker actions and build orders laid out to get us to the point of landing on the eastern landmass and then having a couple of more turns left to explore around it with an Archer and a Galley, so that I can play up until that point and then seek feedback. Barring us meeting the other AI or encountering Demands, there shouldn't be much need to stop play before then, but I do want to get it all worked out.
There are already a lot of beautiful efficiencies built into what I've got, but I'm not yet done, so please be patient.
Trading Resources with Toku
He doesn't have Silver because he was willing to accept ours. I don't know about the other two, but I do not believe that he had either of them up for trade, so from what I recall, he at least did not have two of either one. Still, him just having one of said Resources would mean that he wouldn't want to trade for it.
Since we were "given" 2 extra Silvers in a "poor settling location," it is likely that few or none of the AIs have Silver, making it a strategic decision to be forced to settle by those extra Silvers if you are low on Resources to trade around. That's how I'd set the game up, anyway, but I don't have the game open anymore and I forget who wanted Silver and who didn't.
The issue with the Ivory was that he would not trade it to us when he was Pleased with us. He likely treats it as a "Military Resource" and likely will only trade Military Resources when Friendly. So, even if we had 10 Resources to offer, he wouldn't be giving us Ivory.
Dhoomstriker
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Anyway, I solved the dilemma of east or west by planning to whip Delhi's Settler (for a massive Bureaucracy + Org Religion overflow into the Hagia Sophia) and planning to Chop Wheaties' Settler so that they are completed ON THE SAME TURN AS EACH OTHER. One goes east. One goes west.
Problem solved.
Other details of the Partial PPP are still in the works and I must get some sleep because I've been spending way too much time on this game, so you'll have to wait to find out more (I will have to wait to find out more, too, since it's not all complete yet
).
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I thought you knew it.
Me and UT know well this, since we ran PS from 4000 BC in SG 8. Ans we used WBs (which we needed, anyway) to overflow our HE city last SG. The units not benefitting of PS are workers, settlers and missionaries/executives.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Maybe Zara is too weak in perspective, but he can wipe us in few turns at the present. BTW, any AI can do it. Better keep this in mind.
We only need ivory some time before the end of the game. Do the AIs value it less in later eras? It's certainly true that it's less of a useful military resource as time passes, I have always been under the impression that the AIs know this and the value changes over time.
Also, by then we may have more resources to trade.
Also, by then we may have more resources to trade.
Mitchum
Deity
If the game designers wanted to make this game a challenge, they would give two or three unique sources of our three needed resources (not including fur) to three different AI as we've mentioned. This would require us to trade or war with said three AI to get these resources. Now, to have Tokugawa and Izzy be two of those AI is darn right clever. It's hard enough for a player to be on good terms with one of these leaders let alone both of them. We already know that we are going to focus on being buddies with the Buddhists. What to do about Izzy (or any other AI that we need the resouces from)?
If it is Izzy, we could either send a bunch of Buddhist missionaries her way and convert her to our soon-to-be religion, forming one big happy family (except for Zara, of course). This would make the diplo situation quite a bit easier but could also give Izzy a reason to convert to Free Religion when the time comes. Or we could use one of our war declarations to take the resource from Izzy. This would go a long way to help ensure that we are the biggest civilization when the vote comes.
War or peace? Or should it be War and Peace?
Obviously, this is all speculation at the moment, but this may come up soon...
If it is Izzy, we could either send a bunch of Buddhist missionaries her way and convert her to our soon-to-be religion, forming one big happy family (except for Zara, of course). This would make the diplo situation quite a bit easier but could also give Izzy a reason to convert to Free Religion when the time comes. Or we could use one of our war declarations to take the resource from Izzy. This would go a long way to help ensure that we are the biggest civilization when the vote comes.
War or peace? Or should it be War and Peace?
Obviously, this is all speculation at the moment, but this may come up soon...
Dhoomstriker
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Okay, we know Zara's Resources, which don't include any of the Special Resources, and we also believe that it would be "too easy" for him to have one of the Resources that we need.
So, Isabella might have one. When she finally launches her war against Zara (assuming that her war icon isn't due to the Final AI), we may have to pick sides.
Would we rather have Zara's capitol (we don't want his junky Desert and Tundra Cities) and let him be vassalized? That is--Zara being vassalized by an AI--OUR TEAM IS NOT ALLOWED to accept Vassals if we want to win a Diplo game. A concern there is that Zara being vasallized is kind of a sucky option, since we are likely going to find it tough to gift a City to Zara... there is always the City Gifting option of the Apostolic Palace, but we'll obsolete it at the time of building The UN so that we can gift the City... Catch 22
.We could declare war on Isabella, but then take, what, one or two Cities and that's it? We don't want her to be wiped out by an AI--at that point, we'd actually HOPE that someone vassalized her, to protect her... maybe. I say "maybe," because it has been my experience that AIs like to "dogpile vassalize"--once one AI has capitulated, all other AIs seem to value becoming one of the Master's Vassals a whole lot higher in their list of priorities--an "if you can't beat them, you might as well join them" kind of mentality.
So, by setting her up to become a vassal, we just make it easier for her new Master to start vassalizing the rest of the world.
Vassals aren't going to be GUARANTEED to vote for their Master in a Diplo Vote, but the chances of them voting for their Master instead of us go up dramatically.
Plus, once an AI has 2 vassals, that group becomes "relatively untouchable" unless they declare war on us--we can't declare war on a "team" of 3 AIs, as we only are allowed to declare war on two AIs in total.
If we don't fight on either side of the war, Zara and Isabella will just rack up "You didn't join our War" -2 Diplo Modifiers with us.
There is no easy answer to that war.
That's our current primary plan.
Interestingly enough, Isabella's Favourite Civic is Theocracy. With the fact that most of the other AIs will (hopefully, if we get Buddhism to spread to us) be in the same religion as her, and with the fact that she has a non-Free-Reliion Favourite Civic, it seems that Dynamic Spirit actually gave us a relatively-easy condition to meet (the condition about no player being in Free Religion).
We still don't WANT her to learn Liberalism, as we do not WANT to give her or any of the AIs a chance to switch into Free Religion, but if we get Buddhism going, we should have a very strong chance of keeping the world mostly Buddhist.
Technically, although I want to spread Confucian Missionaries domestically for the Organized Religion bonus, we could consider having a Confucian Missionary "on standby" for Zara, for the next City that he founds. That way, we'd reduce the chance of him picking up a third Religion and thus making him more inclined to stay out of Free Religion.
On the "picking up Buddhism" bit, we still have 3 Cities without a religion and as I said, I'm planning to send another Settler to the west. It may or may not sit down immediately, but it will be READY to sit down if 2 of our 3 "western and northern" Cities pick up a non-Buddhist Religion (and thus reducing our chances to such a small remaining chance as to not be able to count on getting Buddhism in that last City and us needing to implement the "risk a war with the Buddhists in order to become Buddhist" plan).
Okay, again assuming that she has one such Resouces
Spoiler :
Would we, after taking 2 of her Cities and leaving her with 2 Cities, want to leave her as a Hindu? Would we first want to give her Buddhism?
It's not a trivial question. If she becomes Buddhist, a Buddhist AI may vassalize her due to their shared good relations, either through peaceful vassalization or through a short war between relatively friendly-with-each-other AIs.
If she stays as Hindu, it might be best for us, but what if two of her Cities are Hindu and those are the two Cities that we capture? If her other Cities have no Religion in them, then she could potentially grab a Religion that we would not want her to have. Or, more likely, she'd have 2 different Religions across 2 Cities and might treat that situation as the "perfect excuse" to switch into Free Religion ("most or all of an AI's Cities having a different Religion from each other" sounds like a condition that a programmer might write).
So, before we go to war with her, we may need to plan which Missionaries to build for her, as trying to spread them to her after a war might not work. If she's hated by the rest of the world, we won't be able to risk gifting her anything to make her want to Open Borders with someone that declared war on her, because doing so would anger any AI who treated her as their Worst Enemy.
Thus, we need to prepare even more than normal for a war by planning to send in appropriate Missionaries and hope that by the time that the Missionaries are ready to be spread, our war plans haven't changed and the Diplo situation hasn't changed.
One good part about sending in Missionaries is that you can have them "sit there" indefinitely until just before we launch a war--they aren't even like Spy units in that they cannot be "caught" and auto-killed.
Further complicating the situation is that most (actually all, from what I recall) of the AIs are just one tech away from Theology for Theocracy. So, while we could be "one up" on the SGOTM teams that did not get Theology and thus got faced with several AIs already being in Theocracy before they could spam their Missionaries, we are only one step away from landing ourselves in that situation.
Fortunately, of the 5 AIs that we know, only one of them (Isabella) is a concern for switching into Theocracy. The three Buddhists switching into Theocracy would be acceptable (although preferably not Toku, since we don't want him getting the Shared Favourite Civic bonus with the others), because they are already in the correct Religion. The same could be said for Zara, with him being in the Religion of the Holy City that we plan to eventually gift to him.
But, if Isabella gets Theology and switches into her Favourite Civic of Theocracy, I'm not really sure what to do about it. Gifting her Missionaries may or may not work, but it's a possibility. I'd definitely like to hear other ideas on the subject, if you have them.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Dhoom, all your comments on the post above make me regret to not have chosen the Cultural path.
I don't know if we can change our strategy now, surely Diplo risks to be a hole in the water.
I don't know if we can change our strategy now, surely Diplo risks to be a hole in the water.
Dhoomstriker
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Try not to get too discouraged.
I am talking about the worst case scenarios that I can possibly dream up, so that we can plan for the POSSIBILITY of them coming to pass.
Know thine enemy. Another way to put it is to know the challenges that you will face so that you can be best prepared to meet them.
Besides, a hole in your boat is a lot more fearsome than a simple hole in your water. A hole in your water means that you brought along the "kitchen sink," which is usually the only item that a person who is extremely well-prepared does not bring along with them. If we have a hole in our water, then we'll be even more prepared than these normally really-well prepared people, since it means that we will have brought everything that we might require with us--INCLUDING the kitchen sink!
Don't regret and don't look back. The decisions have been made and we'll make the best out of them.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
Okay so I think that we need to plan on converting Izzy and her friend (whoever that is) to Buddhism. It will mean we have to build several Buddhist missionaries but in the long run I think it will be worth it. As far as free religion for Izzy, I've never seen her switch to that. She is much more of a Theocracy kinda person. So if we want to convert her to Bud, then we will need to do that before she can switch to Theo.
Mitchum
Deity
@ BLubmuz
Can you put this in an early post so that we can keep track of it:
WFYABTA
Zara: 8 of 14 (T150 - Fish, T150 - IW, T151 - Sail, T151 - Hunt, T151 - AH, T154 - Monarchy, T154 - Archery, T165 - Calendar)
Sal: 8 of 14 (T150 - Fish, T150 - IW, T151 - Sail, T151 - Hunt, T151 - AH, T154 - Monarchy, T154 - Archery, T165 - Calendar)
Toku: 1 of 7 (T165 - Calendar)
Justinian: 1 of 21 (T165 - Calendar)
Isabella: 1 of 7 (T165 - Calendar)
I noted the turn that we learned each tech so that we can approximate the decay of this number (average 1 tech decay every 20 turns - or is it every 20 turns at Normal and every 30 turns at Epic?)
This may become important in our game since both Izzy and Toku have a very low WFYABTA limit of 6 techs. If possible, when trading around a new monopoly tech we'll want to trade with these two AI first if possible. We may also choose to bypass trading for techs that are relatively cheap to self-research or that we really don't need.
Can you put this in an early post so that we can keep track of it:
WFYABTA
Zara: 8 of 14 (T150 - Fish, T150 - IW, T151 - Sail, T151 - Hunt, T151 - AH, T154 - Monarchy, T154 - Archery, T165 - Calendar)
Sal: 8 of 14 (T150 - Fish, T150 - IW, T151 - Sail, T151 - Hunt, T151 - AH, T154 - Monarchy, T154 - Archery, T165 - Calendar)
Toku: 1 of 7 (T165 - Calendar)
Justinian: 1 of 21 (T165 - Calendar)
Isabella: 1 of 7 (T165 - Calendar)
I noted the turn that we learned each tech so that we can approximate the decay of this number (average 1 tech decay every 20 turns - or is it every 20 turns at Normal and every 30 turns at Epic?)
This may become important in our game since both Izzy and Toku have a very low WFYABTA limit of 6 techs. If possible, when trading around a new monopoly tech we'll want to trade with these two AI first if possible. We may also choose to bypass trading for techs that are relatively cheap to self-research or that we really don't need.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Done, post #3.
OK, i know it's the 4th of July (BTW, good Independence Day to all the Americans and even to all the non-Americans), but i must stress all of you with the finish date.
See you tomorrow, i have to wake up early tomorrow.
Dhoomstriker
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Partial PPP2
Summary of the Current Situation
Diplomatic
Toku's Worst Enemy is Zara
Isabella's Worst Enemy is us
No one else has a Worst Enemy
Saladin is Friendly towards Toku
Saladin will likely soon become Friendly towards Justinian (he is at +7 and will go up to +10 once the additional +3 Shared Religion bonus kicks in)
No one else is Friendly towards anyone else at the moment
Resource Trading
Every AI wants Silver from us, but we currently need that Happiness for Delhi when we are running Police State instead of Representation
Isabella, Saladin, and Zara would all take Rice
The only Resource being offered to us is Corn from both Toku and Isabella, but we don't currently need it, as our Cities have 5 to 7 surplus Health at the moment
Tech Trading
Saladin and Toku both know Construction but neither will trade it to us. Zara is scheduled to learn it in 2 turns.
Civics + Religion
We are currently running Police State, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Decentalization, and Paganism and can switch again in as few as 2 turns
We are currently running No State Religion and can switch again in as few as 2 turns
Science Rate
Currently at 0%
High-level Build Plans
Delhi: Archer -> Settler (whipped) -> Hagia Sophia (partially-chopped)
Silverado: Lighthouse
Riverdale: Confucian Missionary (whipped) -> Taoist Temple
Bedrock: Granary (whipped) -> Work Boat for Sugar Daddy
Wheaties: Settler (chopped) -> Granary (whipped) -> Apostolic Palace (partially chopped)
Grt Person Farm: Work Boat -> Lighthouse -> Library
Risaia: Granary
Crabs: Work Boat (whipped) -> Granary
Three Clams: Work Boat (whipped) -> Granary
Sugar Daddy: Granary
Worker Actions
Worker 1: T168 Farm the Grassland SE + E of Crabs, T173 STOP Worker 1 from Farming and get him to Farm/Stop in place on the Grassland (SE + E of Crabs), T174 Move NE to the GPig and Road/Stop, T175 Move N, NW to the Flood Plains S + S of Risaia and Farm
Worker 2: T169 Completes the Chop of the PHFor into Wheaties, T170 Worker 2 Mine/Stop in place on the PHFor, T171 Move 1S PHFor, T172 Chop the PHFor
Worker 3: T173 Road the Deer
Worker 4: T167 Road the PMarble S + S of Three Clams, T168 Get on Galley 1, T169 Get off of Galley 1 onto the GJungle Sugar, T170 Plantation the GJungle Sugar (it takes 14 turns to complete)
Worker 5: On his way to Chop near Delhi: T167 Farm/Stop the GRiv 1SW + S of Bedrock, T168 Road/Stop the GRiv Horse SE + S of Bedrock, T169 Mine/Stop on the GH NE + N of Delhi, T170 Road/Stop on the PFor E + E + E of Delhi, T171 Chop the Forest on the PFor SE + E + E of Delhi, T175 Complete the PFor Chop into The Hagia Sophia in Delhi
Worker 6: T168 NE PCow (SE of Three Clams) and Pasture, T173 Move to the Flood Plains 1S of Risaia and Farm/Stop, T174 stays on the Flood Plains 1S of Risaia and Farm/Stop, T175 Move to the Flood Plains S + S of Risaia and Farm (the cultural borders just expanded over top of this square)
Non-worker Unit Movements
Settler 9: He will sit down and found Sugar Daddy
Work Boat 2: Starting from just south of Baghdad (the only City of Saladin's that we can see), he will head west along the southern Coast of Saladin's land area
Work Boat 4: Gets built in Grt Person Farm and immediately moves to improve Grt
Galley 1: Starting from the NW of the Sugar lands, he goes south to transfer a Worker over to the Sugar lands. Next, he heads west, where he picks up a Settler and Warrior 1, then heads further west to find a City location. He will explore along the northern Coast of Saladin's land area unless Work Boat 2 spots a really awesome location along the south of the land area before then
Person Farm's Fish
Galley 2: He will head eastward and will pick up an Archer and a Settler for eastward settling. His initial target is the area of land spotted to the NE of Zara, but he may continue going east if that area is junky. This decision will happen after this Partial PPP, once we've revealed the area around the land that we can currently see
Warrior 1: He will go westward in Galley 1 as part of the westward-going Settler Party
Warrior 6: He is no longer needed to fog-bust the northern Desert, so he will become Military Police for Grt Person Farm
Warrior 8: He will move to defend Sugar Daddy
Confucian Missionary 2: Moves to Grt Person Farm to spread the second religion there when the City's Size is 4
Archer 1: He will go eastward to form part of the eastern Settler Party
Settler 10: He will be whipped in Delhi and will form part of the western Settler Party
Settler 11: He will be chopped in Wheaties and will form part of the eastern Settler Party
Build Orders + Citizen Allocation (which squares get worked in each City) + Tech Rate + Civics + Relgion + Whipping + Anything Else that Needs Doing
T167 (95 BC)
Delhi: Builds an Archer -> Settler (Police State saved us enough Hammers to get the Settler 1 turn faster)
Delhi at Size 8: Switch the GRiv Irr to the GHRiv Mine and work the 2 Corn, GCopper, 1S GRiv Cot, 1NE GRiv Cot, and 3 Mines (Settler in 5 turns)
Remove the Signs above settled Cities
Press Alt + X and right-click to remove the City dots above settled Cities
Settler 9 sits down in place and founds Sugar Daddy
Sugar Daddy: Work the 1SE Coast
Sugar Daddy: Builds a Granary
Grt Person Farm: Whip the Work Boat
Crabs: Switch to building a Granary (no point putting in Hammers over time into Work Boats--put the Hammers all in at once when you whip them for a greater Police State bonus later on)
Three Clams: Switch to building a Granary
T168 (80 BC)
Grt Person Farm built a Work Boat -> Lighthouse
WAKE Warrior 1 (in Risaia) and move him 1S Flood Plains--he'll go westward on Galley 1
T169 (65 BC)
Delhi: Whip the Settler (Organized Religion + Bureaucracy bonus on overflow Hammers next turn)
Riverdale: Whip the Confucian Missionary (growth in 1)
*** WAKE Worker 4 on Galley 1 and move him 1NE onto the GJungle Sugar
T170 (50 BC)
Delhi: Built a Settler -> Hagia Sophia
Riverdale: Built a Confucian Missionary -> Taoist Temple
Switch Civics: Representation, Caste System, and Organized Religion
Switch Religion: Confucianism
Riverdale: Switch the two GRiv Cottages to Artist Specialists, speeding up Cultural expansion (meaning a free +20 culture per turn in surrounding squares that much sooner--we also have the highest Science bonus out of all of our Cities, due to having a Library plus 2 Monastaries in Riverdale--see, it is not such a bad City afterall, and it will be even better if we can get that GCow!)
Crabs: Switch the 1E GFor to an Artist Specialist
Sugar Daddy: Switch the Coast to an Artist Specialist
T171 (35 BC)
Just unit movements
T172 (20 BC)
Three Clams: Grew to Size 2: Work a Clam and an Artist
Science Rate: 100%
Silverado: Work the Deer and the Silver
T173 (5 BC)
Risaia: Switch the Flood Plains Cottage and PMarble to 2 Artists (I thought about not doing so, but then we won't be able to work the southern Flood Plains for a LONG time)
STOP Worker 1 from Farming and get him to Farm/Stop in place on the Grassland (SE + E of Crabs)
T174 (10 AD)
Grt Person Farm: Switch the PFor to the 1N Lake
Crabs: Switch the Artist to a Merchant (our borders here have already expanded)
Sugar Daddy (not Three Clams): Switch the Artist to a Merchant (our borders here have already expanded)
T175 (25 AD)
Science Rate: Set to 0% (it was at 1 turn to Aesthetics)
Change Civics to: Police State and Slavery
Note that Religion stays the same and we stay in Organized Religion
Bedrock: Whip the Granary
Bedrock: work the GRiv Horse for a turn
Wheaties: Whip the Granary
Wheaties: work the PWheat and the PCow
Grt Person Farm: Whip the Lighthouse
Grt Person Farm: work GPig, SE + S Fish, and PCow
Risaia: Switch the Flood Plains River to the PMarble and work the Flood Plains Cot and PMarble
Crabs: Select and whip the Work Boat
Crabs: work the Fish
Three Clams: work the Clam and PCow
Sugar Daddy: work the unimproved Fish (9 turns until the Sugar is ready)
The UP Player's Responsibilities for EACH TURN:
1. Check the Foreign Advisor (F4) screens for any notable changes. The screens to check are F4 -> GLANCE, F4 -> RESOURCES, and F4 -> TECHS. Be prepared to react to changes or to seek feedback from teammates if you see a change.
2. Look at the list of Leaders on the main game screen (the screen where you can open Cities, move units, etc). Watch for an orange-coloured "fist" icon to appear to the right of the smiley faces and to the left of the right-side City-count numbers. If a fist appears, it means that an AI is at war or is planning to go to war. Here is where your paying attention to the F4 -> GLANCE screen pays off, as you can predict who they might be planning a war on. You can also check the F4 -> RELATIONS screen to see if they are already at war.
3. If you don't detail your Science Rate switches in your PPP, you must keep an eye on the Science Rate. Make sure that if we are low on Gold that we don't slip into a non-binary Science Rate, such as 80%, due to running out of Gold to fund 100% Science Rate Research.
Foreign Policies
Isabella
Until Isabella is Buddhist, we should not set up Resource Trades with her. We can consider making a Tech Trade with Isabella as long as she is no one's Worst Enemy at the time. We can consider Open Borders with Isabella only if we FIND her borders AND decide that Opening Borders for exploration is worth the risk of her collecting multiple Religions and thus switching into Free Religion later on. It could also be that if we gift her a Buddhist Missionary over top of a RELIGIONLESS City when she is running Theocracy that she will spread Buddhism there, but will not spread it if there is already a religion in that City--that has been my experience in the past with Theocracy-running Civs, which would be another reason not to Open Borders with her until we have Buddhist Missionaries placed outside of her borders. A team decision will need to be made before we are allowed to Open Borders with her.
We can accept Resource Trades with Zara, Saladin, Toku, and Justinian under these conditions:
1. We will aim to give away Health Resources first, then Stone, even our only source of such a Resource. If an AI does not want those Resrouces, will can trade Happiness Resources but only if we have extras (such as when we get two Sugars connected).
2. We will accept Happiness Resources as a priority trade, followed by Gold per Turn trades of 3 Gold per Turn or more, followed by Health Resources.
If we trade a tech to Saladin, we should also be prepared to trade it to Toku on the same turn, even if we only get 20 Gold or so from Toku, otherwise the two will trade with each other and will become even more advanced than before.
Code of Laws and Theology
We should avoid trading Code of Laws and Theology for as long as possible. We should only consider trading away Code of Laws once two AIs have learned them. We should probably not trade Theology at all, since we want it for both of its Wonders plus to deny Isabella getting this tech "because it is cheap from everyone else knowing it," which would mean that she'd likely switch to Theocracy and would make our job of switching her into Buddhism a more difficult task.
AI Demands for Techs and Gold
If someone demands a tech other than Code of Laws, Theology, Civil Service, or Philosophy, we should give into that demand. If someone asks for one of the 4 techs that I listed, the team should be consulted on the situation before deciding. If an AI demands a quantity of Gold, the team should be consluted on the situation before deciding.
Comments about this Partial PPP
We are sending one Settler Party east and one Settler Party west.
All of our on-continent Cities plus Sugar Daddy will have their borders expanded over their fat crosses within this partial PPP.
Religious spread is very random. Twice I got Buddhism in my test games, but most of the time it was a very random thing. I kept removing religions every once and a while from the Cities that got them via auto-spreading, just to see what I could get, and pretty much managed to get each of the 6 religions at least one time. So, it is probably not a bad idea that we are sending a Settler Party west.
Grt Person Farm will be growing very quickly around the end of this partial PPP, setting us up to start working on the Library soon (a Library is required there because it is a pre-requisite of the National Epic). I may have to whip a few Temples there, though, because whipping unhappiness is already pretty high. I'll want SOMETHING to "whip into" the National Epic in addition to the Library, so it might as well be Temples (meaning that we might want a couple of Missionaries to go to Grt Person Farm in the next partial PPP).
At one point, when we are hiring Artists, Riverdale temporarily employs two Artists, to save about 7 turns on the way to the next "cultural level" (i.e. to "Refined" Culture). Once we get there, we'll finally be putting cultural pressure on the Cities of Aksum (Zara's capitol) and Gondar (his southern City).
As expected, the Apostolic Palace is going to be a huge investment, but the longer that we keep our Theocracy Monopoly, the better our chances will be of completing it ourselves. I might also consider whipping Temples in Wheaties once we grow to Size 6 with an almost-full Foodbox, using an Irrigated Plains square to grow, rather than working a Desert Hills square. This last point may also apply after my turnset. I suggested Temples because they are half-priced for us, giving us more overflow Hammers than from whipping Monastaries, while we'll still want SOME cultural output from Wheaties, to avoid Zara's Desert City flipping Wheaties. One Culture per turn (from Confucianism) isn't very much Cultural output.
The partial PPP ends at the point where I have my eastern Galley almost around the island that we made in our test game. In the real game, it may be a continent instead of an island, but still, if I drop off the Settler Party, I should be able to see enough land at that point to take a screenshot and let us decide where to settle.
The Forward Outlook
I played on ahead a bit, but haphazardly, seeing the following Wonder dates (using the Event Log's dating system):
175 AD Mausoleum of Maussollos
190 AD The Colossus
205 AD The Hagia Sophia--built by us in Delhi--none of the AIs knew Theology at this point
Summary of the Current Situation
Diplomatic
Toku's Worst Enemy is Zara
Isabella's Worst Enemy is us
No one else has a Worst Enemy
Saladin is Friendly towards Toku
Saladin will likely soon become Friendly towards Justinian (he is at +7 and will go up to +10 once the additional +3 Shared Religion bonus kicks in)
No one else is Friendly towards anyone else at the moment
Resource Trading
Every AI wants Silver from us, but we currently need that Happiness for Delhi when we are running Police State instead of Representation
Isabella, Saladin, and Zara would all take Rice
The only Resource being offered to us is Corn from both Toku and Isabella, but we don't currently need it, as our Cities have 5 to 7 surplus Health at the moment
Tech Trading
Saladin and Toku both know Construction but neither will trade it to us. Zara is scheduled to learn it in 2 turns.
Civics + Religion
We are currently running Police State, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Decentalization, and Paganism and can switch again in as few as 2 turns
We are currently running No State Religion and can switch again in as few as 2 turns
Science Rate
Currently at 0%
High-level Build Plans
Delhi: Archer -> Settler (whipped) -> Hagia Sophia (partially-chopped)
Silverado: Lighthouse
Riverdale: Confucian Missionary (whipped) -> Taoist Temple
Bedrock: Granary (whipped) -> Work Boat for Sugar Daddy
Wheaties: Settler (chopped) -> Granary (whipped) -> Apostolic Palace (partially chopped)
Grt Person Farm: Work Boat -> Lighthouse -> Library
Risaia: Granary
Crabs: Work Boat (whipped) -> Granary
Three Clams: Work Boat (whipped) -> Granary
Sugar Daddy: Granary
Worker Actions
Worker 1: T168 Farm the Grassland SE + E of Crabs, T173 STOP Worker 1 from Farming and get him to Farm/Stop in place on the Grassland (SE + E of Crabs), T174 Move NE to the GPig and Road/Stop, T175 Move N, NW to the Flood Plains S + S of Risaia and Farm
Worker 2: T169 Completes the Chop of the PHFor into Wheaties, T170 Worker 2 Mine/Stop in place on the PHFor, T171 Move 1S PHFor, T172 Chop the PHFor
Worker 3: T173 Road the Deer
Worker 4: T167 Road the PMarble S + S of Three Clams, T168 Get on Galley 1, T169 Get off of Galley 1 onto the GJungle Sugar, T170 Plantation the GJungle Sugar (it takes 14 turns to complete)
Worker 5: On his way to Chop near Delhi: T167 Farm/Stop the GRiv 1SW + S of Bedrock, T168 Road/Stop the GRiv Horse SE + S of Bedrock, T169 Mine/Stop on the GH NE + N of Delhi, T170 Road/Stop on the PFor E + E + E of Delhi, T171 Chop the Forest on the PFor SE + E + E of Delhi, T175 Complete the PFor Chop into The Hagia Sophia in Delhi
Worker 6: T168 NE PCow (SE of Three Clams) and Pasture, T173 Move to the Flood Plains 1S of Risaia and Farm/Stop, T174 stays on the Flood Plains 1S of Risaia and Farm/Stop, T175 Move to the Flood Plains S + S of Risaia and Farm (the cultural borders just expanded over top of this square)
Non-worker Unit Movements
Settler 9: He will sit down and found Sugar Daddy
Work Boat 2: Starting from just south of Baghdad (the only City of Saladin's that we can see), he will head west along the southern Coast of Saladin's land area
Work Boat 4: Gets built in Grt Person Farm and immediately moves to improve Grt
Galley 1: Starting from the NW of the Sugar lands, he goes south to transfer a Worker over to the Sugar lands. Next, he heads west, where he picks up a Settler and Warrior 1, then heads further west to find a City location. He will explore along the northern Coast of Saladin's land area unless Work Boat 2 spots a really awesome location along the south of the land area before then
Person Farm's Fish
Galley 2: He will head eastward and will pick up an Archer and a Settler for eastward settling. His initial target is the area of land spotted to the NE of Zara, but he may continue going east if that area is junky. This decision will happen after this Partial PPP, once we've revealed the area around the land that we can currently see
Warrior 1: He will go westward in Galley 1 as part of the westward-going Settler Party
Warrior 6: He is no longer needed to fog-bust the northern Desert, so he will become Military Police for Grt Person Farm
Warrior 8: He will move to defend Sugar Daddy
Confucian Missionary 2: Moves to Grt Person Farm to spread the second religion there when the City's Size is 4
Archer 1: He will go eastward to form part of the eastern Settler Party
Settler 10: He will be whipped in Delhi and will form part of the western Settler Party
Settler 11: He will be chopped in Wheaties and will form part of the eastern Settler Party
Build Orders + Citizen Allocation (which squares get worked in each City) + Tech Rate + Civics + Relgion + Whipping + Anything Else that Needs Doing
T167 (95 BC)
Delhi: Builds an Archer -> Settler (Police State saved us enough Hammers to get the Settler 1 turn faster)
Delhi at Size 8: Switch the GRiv Irr to the GHRiv Mine and work the 2 Corn, GCopper, 1S GRiv Cot, 1NE GRiv Cot, and 3 Mines (Settler in 5 turns)
Remove the Signs above settled Cities
Press Alt + X and right-click to remove the City dots above settled Cities
Settler 9 sits down in place and founds Sugar Daddy
Sugar Daddy: Work the 1SE Coast
Sugar Daddy: Builds a Granary
Grt Person Farm: Whip the Work Boat
Crabs: Switch to building a Granary (no point putting in Hammers over time into Work Boats--put the Hammers all in at once when you whip them for a greater Police State bonus later on)
Three Clams: Switch to building a Granary
T168 (80 BC)
Grt Person Farm built a Work Boat -> Lighthouse
WAKE Warrior 1 (in Risaia) and move him 1S Flood Plains--he'll go westward on Galley 1
T169 (65 BC)
Delhi: Whip the Settler (Organized Religion + Bureaucracy bonus on overflow Hammers next turn)
Riverdale: Whip the Confucian Missionary (growth in 1)
*** WAKE Worker 4 on Galley 1 and move him 1NE onto the GJungle Sugar
T170 (50 BC)
Delhi: Built a Settler -> Hagia Sophia
Riverdale: Built a Confucian Missionary -> Taoist Temple
Switch Civics: Representation, Caste System, and Organized Religion
Switch Religion: Confucianism
Riverdale: Switch the two GRiv Cottages to Artist Specialists, speeding up Cultural expansion (meaning a free +20 culture per turn in surrounding squares that much sooner--we also have the highest Science bonus out of all of our Cities, due to having a Library plus 2 Monastaries in Riverdale--see, it is not such a bad City afterall, and it will be even better if we can get that GCow!)
Crabs: Switch the 1E GFor to an Artist Specialist
Sugar Daddy: Switch the Coast to an Artist Specialist
T171 (35 BC)
Just unit movements
T172 (20 BC)
Three Clams: Grew to Size 2: Work a Clam and an Artist
Science Rate: 100%
Silverado: Work the Deer and the Silver
T173 (5 BC)
Risaia: Switch the Flood Plains Cottage and PMarble to 2 Artists (I thought about not doing so, but then we won't be able to work the southern Flood Plains for a LONG time)
STOP Worker 1 from Farming and get him to Farm/Stop in place on the Grassland (SE + E of Crabs)
T174 (10 AD)
Grt Person Farm: Switch the PFor to the 1N Lake
Crabs: Switch the Artist to a Merchant (our borders here have already expanded)
Sugar Daddy (not Three Clams): Switch the Artist to a Merchant (our borders here have already expanded)
T175 (25 AD)
Science Rate: Set to 0% (it was at 1 turn to Aesthetics)
Change Civics to: Police State and Slavery
Note that Religion stays the same and we stay in Organized Religion
Bedrock: Whip the Granary
Bedrock: work the GRiv Horse for a turn
Wheaties: Whip the Granary
Wheaties: work the PWheat and the PCow
Grt Person Farm: Whip the Lighthouse
Grt Person Farm: work GPig, SE + S Fish, and PCow
Risaia: Switch the Flood Plains River to the PMarble and work the Flood Plains Cot and PMarble
Crabs: Select and whip the Work Boat
Crabs: work the Fish
Three Clams: work the Clam and PCow
Sugar Daddy: work the unimproved Fish (9 turns until the Sugar is ready)
The UP Player's Responsibilities for EACH TURN:
1. Check the Foreign Advisor (F4) screens for any notable changes. The screens to check are F4 -> GLANCE, F4 -> RESOURCES, and F4 -> TECHS. Be prepared to react to changes or to seek feedback from teammates if you see a change.
Spoiler Some quick advice about each screen :
2. Look at the list of Leaders on the main game screen (the screen where you can open Cities, move units, etc). Watch for an orange-coloured "fist" icon to appear to the right of the smiley faces and to the left of the right-side City-count numbers. If a fist appears, it means that an AI is at war or is planning to go to war. Here is where your paying attention to the F4 -> GLANCE screen pays off, as you can predict who they might be planning a war on. You can also check the F4 -> RELATIONS screen to see if they are already at war.
3. If you don't detail your Science Rate switches in your PPP, you must keep an eye on the Science Rate. Make sure that if we are low on Gold that we don't slip into a non-binary Science Rate, such as 80%, due to running out of Gold to fund 100% Science Rate Research.
Foreign Policies
Isabella
Until Isabella is Buddhist, we should not set up Resource Trades with her. We can consider making a Tech Trade with Isabella as long as she is no one's Worst Enemy at the time. We can consider Open Borders with Isabella only if we FIND her borders AND decide that Opening Borders for exploration is worth the risk of her collecting multiple Religions and thus switching into Free Religion later on. It could also be that if we gift her a Buddhist Missionary over top of a RELIGIONLESS City when she is running Theocracy that she will spread Buddhism there, but will not spread it if there is already a religion in that City--that has been my experience in the past with Theocracy-running Civs, which would be another reason not to Open Borders with her until we have Buddhist Missionaries placed outside of her borders. A team decision will need to be made before we are allowed to Open Borders with her.
We can accept Resource Trades with Zara, Saladin, Toku, and Justinian under these conditions:
1. We will aim to give away Health Resources first, then Stone, even our only source of such a Resource. If an AI does not want those Resrouces, will can trade Happiness Resources but only if we have extras (such as when we get two Sugars connected).
2. We will accept Happiness Resources as a priority trade, followed by Gold per Turn trades of 3 Gold per Turn or more, followed by Health Resources.
If we trade a tech to Saladin, we should also be prepared to trade it to Toku on the same turn, even if we only get 20 Gold or so from Toku, otherwise the two will trade with each other and will become even more advanced than before.
Code of Laws and Theology
We should avoid trading Code of Laws and Theology for as long as possible. We should only consider trading away Code of Laws once two AIs have learned them. We should probably not trade Theology at all, since we want it for both of its Wonders plus to deny Isabella getting this tech "because it is cheap from everyone else knowing it," which would mean that she'd likely switch to Theocracy and would make our job of switching her into Buddhism a more difficult task.
AI Demands for Techs and Gold
If someone demands a tech other than Code of Laws, Theology, Civil Service, or Philosophy, we should give into that demand. If someone asks for one of the 4 techs that I listed, the team should be consulted on the situation before deciding. If an AI demands a quantity of Gold, the team should be consluted on the situation before deciding.
Comments about this Partial PPP
We are sending one Settler Party east and one Settler Party west.
All of our on-continent Cities plus Sugar Daddy will have their borders expanded over their fat crosses within this partial PPP.
Religious spread is very random. Twice I got Buddhism in my test games, but most of the time it was a very random thing. I kept removing religions every once and a while from the Cities that got them via auto-spreading, just to see what I could get, and pretty much managed to get each of the 6 religions at least one time. So, it is probably not a bad idea that we are sending a Settler Party west.
Grt Person Farm will be growing very quickly around the end of this partial PPP, setting us up to start working on the Library soon (a Library is required there because it is a pre-requisite of the National Epic). I may have to whip a few Temples there, though, because whipping unhappiness is already pretty high. I'll want SOMETHING to "whip into" the National Epic in addition to the Library, so it might as well be Temples (meaning that we might want a couple of Missionaries to go to Grt Person Farm in the next partial PPP).
At one point, when we are hiring Artists, Riverdale temporarily employs two Artists, to save about 7 turns on the way to the next "cultural level" (i.e. to "Refined" Culture). Once we get there, we'll finally be putting cultural pressure on the Cities of Aksum (Zara's capitol) and Gondar (his southern City).
As expected, the Apostolic Palace is going to be a huge investment, but the longer that we keep our Theocracy Monopoly, the better our chances will be of completing it ourselves. I might also consider whipping Temples in Wheaties once we grow to Size 6 with an almost-full Foodbox, using an Irrigated Plains square to grow, rather than working a Desert Hills square. This last point may also apply after my turnset. I suggested Temples because they are half-priced for us, giving us more overflow Hammers than from whipping Monastaries, while we'll still want SOME cultural output from Wheaties, to avoid Zara's Desert City flipping Wheaties. One Culture per turn (from Confucianism) isn't very much Cultural output.
The partial PPP ends at the point where I have my eastern Galley almost around the island that we made in our test game. In the real game, it may be a continent instead of an island, but still, if I drop off the Settler Party, I should be able to see enough land at that point to take a screenshot and let us decide where to settle.
The Forward Outlook
I played on ahead a bit, but haphazardly, seeing the following Wonder dates (using the Event Log's dating system):
175 AD Mausoleum of Maussollos
190 AD The Colossus
205 AD The Hagia Sophia--built by us in Delhi--none of the AIs knew Theology at this point
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
- 13,474
A Question for the SGOTM Veterans
Only today did I realise that when I played my last turnset in "interactive mode," it might not have been the wisest decision to quit the Civ 4 application. I closed the game every time that I logged into the thread to add a bunch of screenshots, as I wasn't sure if I'd be allowed to play on or if that would be it for my play session.
However, upon further reflection, regular XOTM games usually ask you to play for a minimum of a 1 hour time period, and I think that I played 3 game sessions, of which not all were certainly an hour each.
Will that be an issue? Should I just try to keep the game open next time for several hours until I've gotten the "go ahead" to keep playing? Or are SGOTMs "special" in the fact that you are expected to consult frequently with your teammates so this "minimum 1-hour play sessions" guideline gets waived?
Only today did I realise that when I played my last turnset in "interactive mode," it might not have been the wisest decision to quit the Civ 4 application. I closed the game every time that I logged into the thread to add a bunch of screenshots, as I wasn't sure if I'd be allowed to play on or if that would be it for my play session.
However, upon further reflection, regular XOTM games usually ask you to play for a minimum of a 1 hour time period, and I think that I played 3 game sessions, of which not all were certainly an hour each.
Will that be an issue? Should I just try to keep the game open next time for several hours until I've gotten the "go ahead" to keep playing? Or are SGOTMs "special" in the fact that you are expected to consult frequently with your teammates so this "minimum 1-hour play sessions" guideline gets waived?
