SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Dhoomstriker]

That's why we want to sell Wheat to Zara for all of his Gold per Turn on T209--as a buffer of positive Diplo modifiers for keeping the +2 "Shared Resources with Us" value, in case we accumulate negatives Diplo modifiers with him for other reasons. Do so in the test saved game too, please, especially if you can AT A MINIMUM set up the relationships so that Pacal hates Zara BEFORE YOU GO ANY FURTHER IN YOUR TESTING. We really NEED you to be "actively testing" to see if Toku (aka Pacal) can ask us to cancel deals with Zara for a deal that we are not allowed to cancel

Look, you're busy with the PPP, so I'll update the test saved game, but you'll have to play starting from T209 again. Fair? Please stand by, it could take me some time to do...

 

[Irgy]

I'll finish the PPP first, then play through the new test save after comments (the save shouldn't change much). I've looked at the real game at least now. And good morning by the way You've gone to bed and woken up and I'm still chugging away. Baby is asleep now though so productivity is up significantly.

 

[Irgy]

So, I've stolen Mitchum's PPP and made it my own, with modifications of course. Anything left from the old is because I think it still applies, let me know if it doesn't.

I'm thinking that I'm going to be losing focus by T232, I'm comfortable up to the end of the military frenzy, which finishes T226, after that it feels a little like the next player will end up changing most of my builds (just as I've ended up changing half of what's building now). Maybe it's time to finish on a round number like T230? Any thoughts?

PPP – T209 (535 AD) to T230 (? AD)

Summary of the Current Situation
Diplomatic
Zara is worst enemy of Toku. No other worst enemies nor negative diplo modifier totals.

Tokugawa, Justinian and Saladin all mutually Friendly. Zara is friendly with us. No-one else is friendly.

We have yet to meet Mehmed. We intend to use the AP to bring Toku and Zara into a war against Mehmed. Isabella is already at war with Mehmed.

Resource Trading
No AIs have resources available to trade. The UP player is responsible for checking for available trades. We should trade health resources first and happiness only if it's worthwhile.

We should avoid connecting a second of any strategic resources, to avoid demands for those resources.

Tech Trading
Saladin will trade machinery. Justinian and Saladin won't trade Drama. Tokugawa won't trade Machinery and Horseback Riding. We have a monopoly on paper

Civics
The plan is to switch to slavery on T210. Then, after whipping up to 6 universities, we switch to military civics (Theocracy, Vassalage, Police State). After a hectic 5 turns with these civics, we will switch back to Representation, Beaurocracy, Organised Religion, and Cast System. Once we have grown and spread religions enough (possibly outside this turn set) we should switch to pacifism.



Research
We will bulb Education immediately, and switch research to Liberalism. We will research most of Liberalism, but stop before completing it. By then we hope to have picked up Machinery in trade, and can start on Printing Press, with the hope of getting the rest of Compass and maybe Optics in trade. We have a monopoly on Paper and Philosophy, and intend to keep it that way for as long as possible.

Religion
Sugardaddy needs Confucianism. Risaia should gain confucianism the next turn. We intend to spread Buddhism to as many cities as possible

High-level Build Plans (up to T222 so far only)

Delhi: Switch to forge T209, sacking scientists to work mines. Whip forge, and overflow to the University of Sankore. Then 1 turn and a whip into a Confucian Monastery, overflowing again to University of Sankore. Once UoS is complete, 1 turn then whip a university. Finally, slow-build Oxford University. After oxford we should work scientists again instead of mines.

Silverado: Slow build a library, working sea squares, deer, and silver. Whip library the turn before UoS completes in Dehli. Then 1 turn and whip a university in time for Oxford in Dehli. Next longbow, confucian temple, forge.

Riverdale: Finish Christian temple, then build university (whipped). Forge for a turn, then longbow (whipped) and maceman (whipped), and back to forge.

Bedrock: Switch to confucian temple, whipped. Then build university. Finish the longbow after the military civic switch, then build a trireme (whipped), and start on a courthouse.

Wheaties: Confucian Temple, whipped, then library and university. Longbow on the military turns, then start a forge.

Grt Person Farm: Work 8 scientists for a turn, and build a forge. Whip the forge next turn, and overflow to Buddhist temple. Build Buddhist missionaries until the university needs to be whipped (start the same turn as Dehli). Whip 2 military units during the military civics time (longbow and maceman?). Start on a courthouse.

Risaia: Settler, Confucian Missionary (whipped), Confucian Temple (whipped), Confucian monastery (whipped), Longbow (whipped), Trireme (whipped), library.

Crabs: Confucian Temple (whipped), overflow to Buddhist missionary, Cofucian Monastery (whipped), finish Buddhist missionary, lighthouse (whipped), longbow (whipped), forge.

Three Clams: Confucian Temple (whipped), Library, Uni (whipped), Long bow (whipped), trireme (whipped), forge.

Sugar Daddy: Lighthouse (whipped), forge, interrupt with longbow (whipped), back to forge. Should possibly switch to a confucian temple instead of forge when it gets confucianism.

Goldfish: Granary (whipped), Confucian temple (whipped), Confucian monastery.

Ivory Towers: Granary (whipped), workboat (whipped), Trireme

Mystic: Granary (some chopping), lighthouse.


Worker Actions
See detailed PPP.

Non-worker Unit Movements
Galley to meet Mehmed. Galley to ferry to Sugardady. Missionaries spread buddhism, and confucianism to Sugardaddy. Triremes go to Ivory Towers. Longbows fortify in place.

Turn-by-Turn Plan.
Does not contain the buildings, will be updated to at least have the ones which interrupt other buildings at a later stage.

209: Bulb education, research Liberalism. Worker5 chops. Confucianism spread in Risaia. Buddhism spread to Silverado (failed in test game). WB heads towards Whale. Dehli sacks scientists and works mines. GPF hires 8 scientists, while crabs steal the food. Trade wheat to Zara for 2gpt. Send a galley to ferry to Sugardaddy, and a galley to meet Mehmed.

210: Worker 5 head to grass between wheaties and Mystic for farming. Worker1 3S farm for Bedrock. Worker8 3SW. Revolt to Slavery. Whip in: Dehli, Bedrock, Wheaties, GPF, Crabs, Sugardaddy.

211: Worker 8 SW farm (helping worker 1). Worker5 farm grasslands near wheaties for irrigation. Whip in 3Clams.

212: Worker3 SW farm another grass near Dehli. Settler to Whales spot. Worker6 SW farm and cancel. Worker7 W mine (near ivory). Whip granary in goldfish, and work gold for a turn.

213: Worker6 2SE farm. Worker8 3N chop. Buddhist missionary to Bedrock. Worker1 2SW farm (between crabs and GPF). Whip in Dehli and 3Crabs.

214: Worker 2 road incense.

215: Buddist missionary to 3Clams. Worker4 1S. Whale settler wait (for how long?) Worker8 finishes chop. Buddhism spreads in Bedrock.

216: Worker5 1N farm. Worker7 road mines (nothing else to do at ivory). Worker8 NW farm plains for irrigation to Bedrock's grass. Worker4 mine (jungle hill near Sugardaddy). Whip Confucian Missionary in Risaia.

217: Worker2 1SE plantation other incense. Worker3 1N farm. Worker 6 WSW farm. Confucian missionary on a boat to Sugardaddy. Whip Granary in Ivory Towers.

218: Buddhist missionary to Silverado (or somewhere else). Buddhism spreads in 3Clams. Confucianism spreads in Sugardaddy. Leave the Sugardaddy galley there for a while to transport the worker when he's done mining (I didn't do this in the test game). Worker 1 ESE and roads cow for 1 turn. Whip in Silverado, Risaia, Goldfish.

219: Declare war on Mehmed! University of Sankore done. Worker1 SSE farm. Riverdale whips university.

220: Buddhism in Silverdale (failed again in test game). AP Resoultion this turn, declare war on Mehmed. In the test game I declared on Huayana, and Peter declared in retaliation next turn. The resolution then forced Peter (and Zara and Maya) to war with Huayana anyway. I never saw a unit from either of them. Whip in: Dehli, Silverado, Bedrock, Wheaties, Great Person Farm, Risaia, Crabs, 3Clams. Change to military civics (Police State, Vassalage, Theocracy).

221: Worker8 SE farm. Worker5 WSW, ready to chop for Mystic (ok ok he can pchop on the way). Build longbows nearly everywhere! Whip workboat in Ivory Towers.

222: Worker 6 S farm. Ivory Towers workboat settles. Worker 5 chop for Mystic. Worker3 1N farm. Trade for Machinery by now if possible. Whip in Riverdale, Risaia, 3Clams.

223: (nothing much happens)

224: Send worker4 back to the mainland. Worker5 finishes chop for Mystic granary. Worker2 roads other incense. Worker1 W farm. Whip in: Silverado, Riverdale, Bedrock, GPF, Risaia, Crabs, 3Clams, Sugardaddy.

225: Worker5 chop another forest for Mystic. Send the 3 Triremes towards Ivory Towers. Whip Trireme in Ivory Towers, before switching Civics back to Representation, Beaurocracy, Cast System, Organised Religion.

226: Worker8 1S farm.

227: GP born in Dehli - should decide what we might do with one. Could be anything. Worker3 builds roads from Dehli to GPF. Worker5 finishes chop. Worker 2 roads a forest square to connect MYstic to the west without roading horses. Worker6 NNW farm.

228/229: Some worker actions, not noted as they're running out of things to do and just filling in the gaps now. Suggestions welcome. One should probably have gone and mined (but not roaded) the iron in case we want to actually settle Whales at some point. Not much else happening on these turns, everywhere is recovering from the crazy whipping frenzy (up to 100 turns unhappiness!)


The UP Player's Responsibilities for EACH TURN:

Spoiler :

1. Check the Foreign Advisor (F4) screens for any notable changes. The screens to check are F4 -> GLANCE, F4 -> RESOURCES, and F4 -> TECHS. Be prepared to react to changes or to seek feedback from teammates if you see a change.

Spoiler :

F4 -> GLANCE: Watch for blue-colored or red-colored relations, as those indicate Annoyed and Furious relationships and can indicate a Worst Enemy situation. There is a little "head on red-colored shoulders" icon to tell you which one of said players is that AI's Worst Enemy. We should avoid trading with anyone else's Worst Enemy and should only trade with a Worst Enemy after receiving team agreement on the issue. Also, watch for yellow-colored Friendly relationships, as those indicate AIs that will IMMEDIATELY give away the techs that you trade to them, unless you also trade to the AIs that this AI is Friendly with.

F4 -> RESOURCES: Watch the "Will Trade" columns, particularly the Import's "Will Trade" column, to see what new Resources an AI offers up in trade.

F4 -> TECHS: It helps to take a screenshot of this screen regularly and then compare this screen to your screenshot. Why? Because the "Wants" column may change, which indicates that an AI learned a tech, but the BUFFY Log does not tell you about this fact. Either memorize the list or screenshot it and compare against your screenshot. The other important column to watch is the "Will Trade" column, which indicates the techs that we can get in trade. We shouldn't necessarily trade as soon as a tech appears in this column, if perhaps waiting a few turns would allow for multiple techs to appear in this column from multiple AIs, meaning that we could trade around 1 of our techs (or 2 of our techs together) to get multiple tech deals on the same turn, instead of just one tech deal.

2. Look at the list of Leaders on the main game screen (the screen where you can open Cities, move units, etc). Watch for an orange-colored "fist" icon to appear to the right of the smiley faces and to the left of the right-side City-count numbers. If a fist appears, it means that an AI is at war or is planning to go to war. Here is where your paying attention to the F4 -> GLANCE screen pays off, as you can predict who they might be planning a war on. You can also check the F4 -> RELATIONS screen to see if they are already at war.
3. If you don't detail your Science Rate switches in your PPP, you must keep an eye on the Science Rate. Make sure that if we are low on Gold that we don't slip into a non-binary Science Rate, such as 80%, due to running out of Gold to fund 100% Science Rate Research.

Special things to watch for during this turnset:
?????? TBD


Foreign Policies
Zara
We will keep closed borders with Zara until an AP resolution either forces them open, or gets him involved in a war with Mehmed. We need to be wary of trading with the enemy penalties from Toku if we trade with Zara, but he is currently a good trading partner. We should trade Wheat to him for gold-per-turn.

Isabella
Accept Isabella's demands EXCEPT if she asks us to switch to Hinduism--refuse to switch into that Religion, or else we might lose the race to the Apostolic Palace if we do switch Religions to Hinduism.
Do NOT trade techs with Isabella since she is Mehmed’s worst enemy.

We can accept Resource Trades with Saladin, Toku, and Justinian under these conditions:
1. We will aim to give away Health Resources first, even our only source of such a Resource. If an AI does not want those Resources, will can trade Happiness Resources but only if we have extras (such as when we get two Sugars connected). 2. We will accept Happiness Resources as a priority trade, followed by Gold per Turn trades of 3 Gold per Turn or more, followed by Health Resources.

Trading Techs to Saladin, Tokugawa and Justinian Only
If we trade a tech to one, we should also be prepared to trade it to the others on the same turn, even if we only get 20 Gold or so, otherwise the three will trade with each other and will become even more advanced than before. The exception to this rule is if we happen to trade it to Tokugawa (unlikely). He won’t trade it to the others, so we don’t have to trade it around to them unless he is Friendly with them.

The only techs that we should be trading for right now include Machinery, Compass and Optics, which are all on the Mass Media beeline.

Code of Laws, Philosophy, and Paper
We should avoid trading these as long as possible. We should only consider trading away these techs once two AIs have learned them, as at that point 3 players (counting us) will know said techs and the AIs may just start trading them around anyway. We might as well get some benefit out of trading them in such a scenario. For Paper and Philosophy, which both directly lead towards Liberalism, I will consult the team before trading them.

Even though both Sal and Justinian know Civil Service, I will NOT consider trading it to Tokugawa. We do not want him getting Samurai and we do not want him running Bureaucracy for as long as possible.

Since we’ve completed the Great Library already, we can consider trading our monopoly on Literature if a good trade comes along (i.e. for a Tech, not gold). We can also consider getting gold from Tokugawa such that he wins the race to Music. We don’t want Saladin to get the free GA and culture bomb cities affecting either Gold Fish or Crabs.

AI Demands for Techs
If either Justinian, Saladin or Toku demand a tech, even if it is one of our monopoly techs, I am afraid that we'll have to accept, so as to hopefully dissuade them from going to war with us and hopefully going after a different target (like Zara or perhaps no target at all). If one of them asks for Code of Laws, Philosophy, or Paper, the team should be consulted on the situation before deciding.

If another AI demands a tech other than Code of Laws, Philosophy, or Paper, we should give into that demand as long as that AI does not have a Worst Enemy. However, since Isabella and Zara are both a Worst Enemy, I would refuse said demand until the Worst Enemy condition goes away.

AI Demands for Gold
If an AI demands a quantity of Gold of 200 Gold or less, give into the demand since it shouldn't increase Traded with our Worst Enemy negative Diplo modifiers by TOO much. However, if there is some diplo room above Friendly with Zara, it may make sense to ignore such a demand from Zara so that we don’t tick off Tokugawa too much.


Uploaded just a few key saves, can give any others on request (but off to bed now). I'll need to run it through again on the improved test save anyway. At least I finally have a PPP. I need to play fairly soon to stay on schedule.

 

[havr]

Summary

Thanks for the update. You have certainly been busy (building & doing wonders).
I will try to get into focus.

 

[Irgy]

Ok, PPP is all the way up to T230 now, see just a couple of posts back. You can probably see the focus fading even on T228 Although I'm really not just being lazy with the PPP there, there genuinely isn't much happening.

I'm off to bed now, goodnight.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Latest Test Saved Game
Okay, I'm finally done updating the test saved game. Here you go!

Hopefully, nothing crazy will happen, like one AI immediately vassalizing to another--I didn't spend the time to check for crazy things like that, as it took me longer than I'd hoped to get the test saved game updated.


Here are some highlights:
1. The tech of the AIs and us are updated to T209 in the real game (i.e. you can stop trading for Metal Casting, since we already own it). After the first turn, though, anything could happen that won't in the real game, such as AIs trading with each other or chasing down different tech paths. One AI already learned Music in the test saved game, which I removed, but the Free Great Artist will already be "gone," so AIs might not chase after this tech as aggressively as they might in the real game.

2. I didn't pay attention to AI Resources that much, so hopefully deals won't get cancelled or anything.

3. I got rid of the Forest that you wanted to chop, since it doesn't exist in the real game. Heh heh.

4. I fixed up minor things, like Sugar Daddy having snagged a Religion when it has yet to do so in the real game.

5. I made Pacal get mad at Zara, enough for Pacal to hopefully start treating Zara as his Worst Enemy, just like Toku does.

6. I gave the AIs the right number of Cities, except for Peter (aka Mehmed), as I have no clue how many Cities he has--I know the minimum number and those Cities exist, but beyond that, no clue.

7. I put in one of the 2 Barb Cities, as I wasn't sure where the second one should be placed. I at least put in the PWheat for the second Barb City, and placed a Fur on the map under the northern Barb City.

8. I placed our Galley 1 and Work Boat 2 onto the correct squares, so you can "practice for real" with moving them accurately.

9. I don't know if you plan to cancel any of the Workers' actions, but if you do plan to do so, you should probably select those units and cancel their current actions as the first thing that you do. If you plan to stick with what they were all doing, then kindly reply saying that it is your intention not to change what they are doing, so that I can stop worrying on your behalf.

10. I threw in most of the Road, Chop, and "Do Not Road" Signs that are in the real game, minus a couple of changes that I think are better (we don't really NEED the extra Roads south of Mystic, so I didn't keep those signs there, and I changed one Forest near Whales to say that we should save it for Whales--right now it says to save it for the UN, but that Forest chop won't go to Riverdale unless we do not settle Whales, and we've already decided that we DO want to settle Whales).

11. I threw in a few more TEST SAVE Barb Signs.

12. I threw in a few signs over top of our Galleys, to match what we've been discussing about their intended movements.


Enjoy!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Thanks for the update. You have certainly been busy (building & doing wonders).
I will try to get into focus.

Yeah, well, we had a lot of them prioritized.

Shwedagon Paya
We gave up on Shwedagon Paya, but hopefully Toku won't use it for Free Religion, seeing as how his Cities are almost purely Buddhist, with one tiny City having Confucianism in it, too.

Of course, there is a danger that he'll scoop up more Cities once Astronomy comes in, so we'll have to be ready to aggressively settle any land that gets opened up via Galleons. If he does take other Cities, as long as he's running Theocracy, we're okay, but if he's out of Theocracy and has new Cities, said Cities might pick up our other Religions, making him more likely to switch into Free Religion.


The Parthenon
As for The Parthenon, you were the main proponent of building this Wonder and it seemed kind of unfair that we ignored your desire to build it while you were on hiatus.

So, we managed to squeeze it in there, but it was a tight fit that is now "bulging our build order out a bit" in terms of making Irgy have to do a bit of extra work just to get both The University of Sankore and Oxford University up and running in Delhi. We'll make it though, don't worry.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Comments on the non-turn-by-turn portion of the PPP

What turn to play until

I'm thinking that I'm going to be losing focus by T232, I'm comfortable up to the end of the military frenzy, which finishes T226, after that it feels a little like the next player will end up changing most of my builds (just as I've ended up changing half of what's building now). Maybe it's time to finish on a round number like T230? Any thoughts?

Well, if you're switching Civics on T226, then stopping on T230 or T231 would be better than T232, as T231 would allow us to potentially switch our Civics again. Depending upon what we want and/or need to accomplish in the next turnset, we may need to change our Civics, so it's probably best to stop on one of those two turns, instead of playing right until T232.


Military
Have you thought about building any Spearmen anywhere? If not, can you be sure to build 2 of them somewhere during our Military Civic time?

I don't want to ever have to pay any money to upgrade our Warriors--it takes us 3 turns just to collect that much Gold, so it would be a terrible waste.

Ideally, we'll put 1 Longbowman and 1 Spearman (not upgraded Warriors but self-built Spearmen) in each of Wheaties and Riverdale. Zara has no Metal but has a ton of Chariots. I think that this combo of Defenders would be a good combo.

Also, although we are generally NOT assigning promotions ahead of time, for those two Cities' Longbowman + Spearman combos, I would assign City Defence 1 to the Longbowmen and Combat I to the Spearmen. Since these units are DEFENSIVE units, they have to be prepared for a sneak attack, and that means promoting them ahead of time.

Since our Triremes are ALSO defensive units, I would recommend assigning Combat I promotions to all of them. Flanking is useless for a defender and Drill isn't really necessary when you have a stack of Triremes.

Other units, like your extra Longbowmen and the odd other unit that you might build, should save their promotions until we need to use them.


Tech Trading

Saladin will trade machinery. Justinian and Saladin won't trade Drama. Tokugawa won't trade Machinery and Horseback Riding. We have a monopoly on paper

You should add that our goal is to trade Civil Service plus some "Gold on hand" to Zara on the turn that he learns Machinery, in exchange for, you guessed it, Machinery.

That means keeping an eye on what he's researching and planning to save up some Gold starting at about him being 4 turns from learning Machinery (in case he changes his Science Slider and learns Machinery earlier than our Espionage told us, say, learning it within 2 turns).


Civics

The plan is to switch to slavery on T210. Then, after whipping up to 6 universities, we switch to military civics (Theocracy, Vassalage, Police State). After a hectic 5 turns with these civics, we will switch back to Representation, Beaurocracy, Organised Religion, and Cast System. Once we have grown and spread religions enough (possibly outside this turn set) we should switch to pacifism.

I'm really wondering about the pairing of Caste System plus Organized Religion. Could we perhaps be better off sticking it out in Slavery for another 5 turns while running Org Religion? That way, if we have buildings or Missionaries that need to be completed before Pacifism comes in, we can whip them, if required.

Also, it would seem to make sense to keep growing our Cities as much as possible, then hiring Specialists under Caste System at an increased value under Pacifism. But, what do I know? We'd at least get the National Epic and Parthenon bonuses. I guess if your PPP is bullet-proof (I haven't read that far yet), and you don't need Slavery at all for those 5 turns, sure, why not use Caste System. But, if we're only hiring a couple of more Specialists in Delhi and Riverdale, then consider that Delhi can hire up to 5 for free once Oxford University is built. If we don't absolutely need more than 2 Scientists in Grt Person Farm (perhaps, as opposed to my earlier advice about growing Grt Person Farm, we simply work 2 Scientists for a long period of time there in Grt Person Farm, we won't need to use Caste System). So, if you can justify not using Caste System, then let's stick with Slavery. But, if you can also 100% say that we won't need Slavery during that 5 turn time period, why not try using Serfdom?

I guess it mostly depends on Grt Person Farm being able to keep growing while not using Caste System for those 5 turns. That situation would probably mean that it would be best to continuously work 2 Scientists for a longer period of time, even after whipping the Forge there, as per your original plan, instead of using my suggestion to grow a lot of Food there before hiring Scientist Specialists.

But certainly, when you switch to Pacifism, let's use Caste System at the same time.


Cities' Build Orders

Bedrock: Switch to confucian temple, whipped. Then build university. Finish the longbow after the military civic switch, then build a trireme (whipped), and start on a courthouse.

Should we maybe get a Confucian Monastary before a Courthouse, considering that this City is one of our Cottage Cities and is also close the capitol, meaning that a Courthouse, while nice, won't give us that much of a benefit?

Silverado: Slow build a library, working sea squares, deer, and silver. Whip library the turn before UoS completes in Dehli. Then 1 turn and whip a university in time for Oxford in Dehli. Next longbow, confucian temple, forge.

Similarly, perhaps a Confucian Monastary before a Forge? They both will provide us 2 Hammers until Silverado grows to Size 10, which is a long ways away, while the Confucian Monastary is half of the cost of the Forge. Basically, we'd probably only gain Hammer-wise by building the Forge first if we planned to whip it at some point, but I'm thinking that our days of whipping are soon going to be numbered after the end of your turnset.

Wheaties: Confucian Temple, whipped, then library and university. Longbow on the military turns, then start a forge.

Same suggestion here: Confucian Monastary before a Forge, unless you think that we'll shortly be switching into Org Religion and whipping Forges (will we even have the population points to do so?). Slow-building the Confucian Monastary first beats slow-building the Forge first. In addition, Wheaties could use the extra Cultural pressure, in order to steal back the PFor NE + N of Wheaties, before Zara gets up the nerve to go chopping it.

Grt Person Farm: Work 8 scientists for a turn, and build a forge. Whip the forge next turn, and overflow to Buddhist temple. Build Buddhist missionaries until the university needs to be whipped (start the same turn as Dehli). Whip 2 military units during the military civics time (longbow and maceman?). Start on a courthouse.

Maybe we can turn the first Buddhist Missionary into a Jewish Missionary, for helping with Crabs' Happiness level?

Risaia: Settler, Confucian Missionary (whipped), Confucian Temple (whipped), Confucian monastery (whipped), Longbow (whipped), Trireme (whipped), library.

Since we're whipping so much and are mostly producing Food instead of Commerce, could a Courthouse be a better build before completing the Library? You can always throw the Library back into the build queue after the Courthouse, so that we don't forget about it. A Forge instead of a Courthouse might be even better for a "whipping City," since a Whipping City could:
a) Use the extra Happiness
AND
b) Benefit from the Forge each time that it whips
AND
c) Since it's staying relatively small-sized due to all of its whipping, maybe a Courthouse won't provide a lot of value for quite some time, while I believe that a Library would be less valuable than either of the other two buildings

Mystic: Granary (some chopping), lighthouse.

I haven't checked which Forests that you are chopping, but please try to make sure to only chop Forests within our Cultural borders. If possible, try to delay completing a chop until we get Confucianism in Mystic and are running Organized Religion, unless we have no chance of seeing Confucianism getting there within the foreseeable future.


Non-worker Unit Movements

Galley to meet Mehmed. Galley to ferry to Sugardady. Missionaries spread buddhism, and confucianism to Sugardaddy. Triremes go to Ivory Towers. Longbows fortify in place.

To add to these movements, please see the quote of what I wrote before:

Please send Galley 1 to the square that is N + N + N of Kagoshima and SE + E of Ghuzz, followed by sending him into Justinian's City named Polynesian on the west Coast of his continent. I would not put Galley 1 on "auto-move," as we REALLY need map intelligence of Toku's navy and Justinian's navy, and the only way that you'll get that is to move 1 square at a time, 3 times a turn, watching for their boats and making a list of every boat that you pass or that passes you in-between turns.

Please send Work Boat 2 around the northern edge of our continent towards the edge of Zara's borders. If and when we get Open Borders with Zara via the Apostolic Palace, you can sneak this Work Boat in towards Ivory Towers, unless it already has its Clam improved, at which point you could send it towards Whales.

 

[BLubmuz]

The PPP seems well planned and discussed (even if we are only 3, plus havr in recover).

So, Irgy can go. If you think it's better, just to save time in discussing and planning stop in the first turn when we can switch civics, i'm fine with that.

Havr can you please tell us if you can play after me? If you feel comfortable of course.

Just to give to UT some more day to catch.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Okay, we have a MAJOR ISSUE to deal with. FULL STOP. We need to discuss it, as whether or not we go ahead and meet Mehmed and plan for war with him or not happens in this next turnset, and what I have discovered will affect the potential success or failure of such a war

The Apostolic Palace
FINDING #1: Although I have yet to see anywhere on the forums report this info, it appears that you need CONTACT between various players in order for the Apostolic Palace's Resolutions to work.

FINDING #2: I have also seen it mentioned that "the Apostolic Palace Resolutions don't work in a Duel game," but that point has never been expanded upon to include the actual fact: more than 2 players must have a City with the Apostolic Palace's Religion in it in order for Resolutions to be possible.


FINDING #2 is not applicable to our game since we were smart enough to choose a Religion from which we could "defend" Zara and because this Religion managed to make its ways into the hands of a third AI, Toku.


However, FINDING #1 has a number of implications:
A) If Confucianism spreads to an AI that others have yet to meet, such as to Mehmed, we cannot run a Resolution like Open Borders with All Members until all Members actually MEET EACH OTHER.

The implication is that if Mehmed gets Confucianism, we won't be able to force Toku and Zara to Open Borders with each other until Toku can get a Work Boat up to Mehmed (the opposite won't happen as long as Mehmed and Isabella are at war with each other).


B) If we want to drag our Confician Members into a war, they must all KNOW that war target. Toku does NOT know Mehmed

Spoiler :

it's pretty clear that they can't know each other--our maps show that they don't have a way contact each other except through us, and that has yet to happen. Also, I haven't seen anyone anywhere near Compass, let alone Optics. If Mehmed were that advanced, he'd have come to seek us out with a Caravel and/or he would be all over Isabella's shoreline with Caravels, but neither scenario has happened.

The implication is that if we pick Mehmed as our war target, we will not be able to drag Toku into a war with him anytime soon.

In fact, we'd first have to get Toku and Zara set up with Open Borders, then Toku would have to send a boat up to Mehmed; only then might we be able to get Toku to join in on our war party.

And it's not just an issue of getting Toku to join Zara and us at war with Mehmed. The RESOLUTION WILL NOT EVEN APPEAR. I used Peter for Mehmed and Pacal for Toku and we could not even drag Zara into war simply because Peter and Pacal had not yet met.


C) We could pick another war target. Isabella could be a target. We'd get Mutual Military Struggle bonuses with Mehmed. We'd also be able to drag Toku and Zara into that war.

In fact, if we wanted, we could spread Confucianism to Saladin and Justinian and drag them into the same war.

The danger is that under that much pressure, a small AI such as Isabella would simple choose someone to call "Master" and would become their vassal.


D) If we are patient, our war declaration on Mehmed can pay off. Eventually, post-Optics, Toku will meet Mehmed. Then it's no-holds-barred war.


E) We could just skip this whole war deal and go after the Barbs. Wait to make contact with Mehmed (EDIT: i.e. avoid all contact with him and leave our eastern Galley where it is). Don't build any Triremes, but build a couple of Axemen and Catapults instead. Still build 2 Spearmen and put 2 Spearmen and 2 Longbowmen in the border Cities with Zara, while starting to ship our Military units to the east. We can just continue to "milk" the fact that Isabella and Mehmed are at war with each other but are unable to drag us into their war.

EDIT: In terms of the Barbs, we'd first send 4 to 5 Longbowmen their way, then the Catapults, then the Axemen. The Longbowmen would form a beachhead, the Catapults would bombard Cultural defenses, and the Axemen would arrive just in time to help assault the City. I'd try for 5 Catapults if we can get them, with even just 1 to 2 Axemen. Maybe we can't whip all of these units in one Military Civic whipping session. So be it. Our build priority would be 7 Longbowmen first, then 2 Spearmen for Zara, then as many Catapults as you can still fit in, and only if you can get 5 Catapults, build some Axemen. It make take another round of Military Civics during BLubz' turnset to get enough Military units out, but so be it.

We can slowly convert Isabella to Buddhism, then work on Mehmed, who at that point in the game will either be at peace or will be happy to take a tech to declare peace, allowing us to infiltrate his Cities with Buddhist Missionaries.

Peace would be restored to the world. Anyone who wanted to go after either us or Zara could be stopped via the Apostolic Palace. We could even spread Confucianism to Isabella if we wanted to be able to stop wars between her and Mehmed without having to sell techs to one of them.

We could better use our population by not whipping it away for a Military that we probably aren't going to make good use out of but instead could focus on running Specialists for more Great People and a faster tech pace. Research is our real gating factor at this point, less so than relations, as we can always please Isabella with Buddhism, Toku with Mercantilism, and Mehmed with Vassalage + Buddhism. There are no Fave Civics that are not equal to each other that fall into the same Civic Category, so we can be in everyone else's Fave Civic at the end of the game if we want to be.

If we don't really plan to capture many of Mehmed's Cities, then we can just forget about war with him as a means of getting Toku to call off his war plans, because THAT IDEA IS NOT GOING TO WORK.

Right now, I'm strongly leaning towards the stuff that I outlined in point E) above.


I'll attach a few saved games that demonstrate the issue.
1. FE--All Confucianists know Peter BC-0080.CivBeyondSwordSave = Zara, Pacal, and Fifth Element know Peter, but Zara and Pacal do not know each other. Only Resolutions to stop trading with Peter or to declare war on Peter are available.

2. Confucianists know each other BC-0080.CivBeyondSwordSave = Zara, Pacal, and Fifth Element know each other, while both Full Members (Zara and Fifth Element) know the potential war target, Peter. Since the Confucianists know each other and Zara and Fifth Element, two Full Members, do not have Open Borders with each other, the Open Borders with All Members Resolution appears. However, since Pacal does not know Peter, even though Zara and Fifth Element know Peter, no Resolutions about stopping Trade or starting a War with Peter are possible.

3. Confs know all Confs and Peter BC-0080.CivBeyondSwordSave = Zara, Pacal, Fifth Element, and Peter all know each other. All of the Resolutions mentioned for the other two saved games are now possible.

 

[BLubmuz]

I've seen your points about Mehmed.
I think we have to wait after optics, then we can decide.
Izzy is too weak to be a target.

Barb City
LBows alone can't work: in the open they are pretty poor defenders, unless on a hill.
LBows + Xbows is the way to go, and even a spear in case the barbs have HAs.

Irgy has 2 full days to post his save and be on time with the schedule.

 

[Irgy]

The Apostolic Palace
FINDING #1: Although I have yet to see anywhere on the forums report this info, it appears that you need CONTACT between various players in order for the Apostolic Palace's Resolutions to work.

Well, this is interesting to know. I'd wondered about contact, but there was no mention of it (or I missed the mention of it) on the war-academy page about the AP, and it couldn't be tested properly in the old test save. Hopefully it would have come up at least in the test run through from the improved test game. Otherwise it would have been a bit of a debacle, as we'd have to declare war on him ourselves before the motion would have (failed to) come up.

It's still worth considering for the future then, but it won't happen in time to avoid redirect Toku's war efforts like we'd hoped.

C) We could pick another war target. Isabella could be a target. We'd get Mutual Military Struggle bonuses with Mehmed. We'd also be able to drag Toku and Zara into that war.

This doesn't sound like such a bad option, except for the Vassaling risk you mentioned.

In fact, if we wanted, we could spread Confucianism to Saladin and Justinian and drag them into the same war.

We could do that either way, but not by the first resolution at 700AD. Maybe by the second.

E) We could just skip this whole war deal and go after the Barbs. Wait to make contact with Mehmed (EDIT: i.e. avoid all contact with him and leave our eastern Galley where it is). Don't build any Triremes, but build a couple of Axemen and Catapults instead. Still build 2 Spearmen and put 2 Spearmen and 2 Longbowmen in the border Cities with Zara, while starting to ship our Military units to the east. We can just continue to "milk" the fact that Isabella and Mehmed are at war with each other but are unable to drag us into their war.

This doesn't seem like too bad an option either.

I can't build all that without more than the 5 turns of war civics though - unless I leave most cities still defended only by warriors? I could just put the spearmen+longbow in the border cities and send the rest overseas. I'll need to build at least a couple of galleys to transport them too, as the barbs are a long way away and we don't want the troops we send to be obsolete before they arrive.

Do you mean 2 spearmen and 2 longbowmen each city for 4 spears + 4 longbows total, or 1 in each for 2 total?

Why axemen instead of the similar but surely superior macemen? We should be able to get Machinery in time for the war Civics.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I think we have to wait after optics, then we can decide.

Part of the issue is angering other AIs. Even if we did decide to declare war on Isabella, for example, we'd take a permanent negative Diplo hit with each of Saladin, Justinian, and Zara.

We're in a unique position pre-Optics (especially since we plan to be about the 4th player to learn it by getting this tech via trade). Particularly, the only AIs that Mehmed can know are Isabella and Zara. He's right now at war with Isabella, but if they share a Religion, she might like him after the war, especially if she was the aggressor. She DID have the "hands full" icon well before she was listed as being at war with Mehmed, so there is a strong chance that she declared, and if they share a Religion now, we'll anger her by waiting.

Or, it could be that Mehmed has no Religion, so he'll potentially be liked by a lot of AIs, especially if Zara has traded him Theology and has asked him to switch into Theocracy. In that case, Isabella will like him as soon as the war is over and Justinian and Saladin will like him as soon as they meet each other.

It could also be that Mehmed picks up Buddhism, which would mean that Justinian, Saladin, and Toku would like him by the time that they met each other.


Basically, attacking Mehmed is best done ASAP, while the war between him and Isabella still rages on and before he meets anyone else. At worst, we would take a -1 Diplo hit with Zara, but if we wait, we'll likely incur too many negative Diplo hits to make it worth attacking him.

Izzy is too weak to be a target.

While I am very tempted to go after her, as she is in a conflicting Relgion, she is already well-liked due to the multiple-AIs running Theocracy as their Favourite Civic situation.

So, we'd definitely sour relationships before we started to build upon them, by attacking her.


There is always the Zara card: attack him, or better yet, get some defenders and hope that he's still daring enough to attack us when we switch out of Confucianism. Still, that's more of a random thing and not something that we can build a strategy around.

It DOES potentially leave us with a dilemma, though, if Zara does not attack us: if Zara is someone's Worst Enemy, then we can't GIFT him the UN without incurring a -4 Diplo penalty. If he attacked us, we could just give him Riverdale as part of a peace bargain, which would work out beautifully.

On the positive side, only Toku (and possibly Mehmed) will dislike him enough to treat him as their Worst Enemy even at maximum negative Diplo modifiers for being in a different Religion. So, honestly if we can get Toku (and maybe Mehmed) to trade with Zara enough to stop being Annoyed with him, then we're already in great shape, without needing a war.

Well, this is interesting to know. I'd wondered about contact, but there was no mention of it (or I missed the mention of it) on the war-academy page about the AP, and it couldn't be tested properly in the old test save.

Yes, it is interesting, but it does have some logic to it. It does help to explain why there are so many "I can't understand how the Apostolic Palace works" threads, but most people pass these situations off as being symptoms of issues that they ALREADY KNOW ABOUT, such as "ohhh, it must be because you didn't spread the Apostolic Palace's Religion to every Civ that you aren't getting voting options, etc." Chances are that one of the two problems that I raised has been an issue for people and that said issue has just gone undiagnosed.

I was kind of hoping that you'd do the testing, but I finally made some time for it and I'm glad that I did.

We don't necessarily have to give up on war with Mehmed, but honestly, my primary motivator was to be able to redirect Toku's wrath. Since we will be unable to do so within a reasonable set of circumstances (first, we'll have to force Zara and him to Open Borders, then we'll have to wait for him to get off of his lazy butt and send a Work Boat from the far west... his AI programming "knows" where Mehmed is, but that fact doesn't help us resolve the non-appearance of an Apostolic Palace War Resolution issue, as we need him to make contact with Mehmed).

It is probably in our best interests to focus on keeping a low-profile military and running a strategy counter to what the Plastic Ducks appear to have done. There's not much point in half-heartedly warring if we can't use the war effort for our primary reasons of getting Toku to stop his current war plans while at the same time building up positive Diplo modifiers between Toku and us as well as Toku and Zara.

It is probably better to save the population points for more Specialists.

Hopefully it would have come up at least in the test run through from the improved test game.

Not likely, since due to having moved the AIs around all over the map a few times, I think that pretty much everyone has met everyone else in the test saved game, so the "contacts" issue would not have been spotted.

It's still worth considering for the future then, but it won't happen in time to avoid redirect Toku's war efforts like we'd hoped.

Well, that's like saying that it's worth considering declaring on war in Isabella or even on Saladin. Sure, it's worth considering, but since doing so no longer appears to meet our needs, I think that we have to drop the plan to go and meet Mehmed and declare war on him.

Isabella could be a target.

This doesn't sound like such a bad option, except for the Vassaling risk you mentioned.

That and offending the other AIs. Honestly, this kind of a scenario (declaring on a low-City Civ like Isabella and Zara when another AI also is fighting them) is exactly the "mess with you" issue that vassalization has presented since the beginning of Warlords.

If we want to be reasonable about it, the only AI worth declaring on is one that is far more than half of the size of the biggest AIs. That would mean declaring on Toku, Saladin, Justinian, or, judging by the size of the land available to him, Mehmed. Only Mehmed really fit the bill and now it just doesn't seem like doing so will meet our goals.

So, I'm all for our original hope of peacefully converting Isabella and Mehmed to Buddhism.

In fact, if we wanted, we could spread Confucianism to Saladin and Justinian and drag them into the same war.

We could do that either way, but not by the first resolution at 700AD. Maybe by the second.

The biggest downside with doing so, and it's a pretty big downside, is that each AI that we add to the group will start liking all of the other AIs in the group a lot. The Mutual Military Struggle points were supposed to be a way for us to "help make up" for some of the hidden Diplo modifiers that are in the AIs' favour towards each other, but if they all went to war together, we'd lose this differential, and even a potenitally-larger-sized AI like Mehmed might just capitulate, which could set off a string of capiulations, scooping up Isabella and Zara under the same umbrella and leaving us with no options to gift the UN to, while the western AIs of the world would be in a mega-lovefest with each other, never choosing to vote for us over the others (what a shame it would be to lose to a Diplo loss, after having built the UN ourselves!).

E) We could just skip this whole war deal and go after the Barbs. Wait to make contact with Mehmed (EDIT: i.e. avoid all contact with him and leave our eastern Galley where it is). Don't build any Triremes, but build a couple of Axemen and Catapults instead. Still build 2 Spearmen and put 2 Spearmen and 2 Longbowmen in the border Cities with Zara, while starting to ship our Military units to the east. We can just continue to "milk" the fact that Isabella and Mehmed are at war with each other but are unable to drag us into their war.

This doesn't seem like too bad an option either.

And I'm pretty sure that this option will be the best option to take, given our alternatives.

I can't build all that without more than the 5 turns of war civics though - unless I leave most cities still defended only by warriors? I could just put the spearmen+longbow in the border cities and send the rest overseas. I'll need to build at least a couple of galleys to transport them too, as the barbs are a long way away and we don't want the troops we send to be obsolete before they arrive.

Okay, picture the following:
Riverdale has a Longbowman and a Spearman
Wheaties has a Longbowman and a Spearman
Ivory Towers has an Archer. Whatever other land units we build there, we can ship over to "the mainland" whenever we get Open Borders with Zara via the Apostolic Palace. It's not worth defending Ivory Towers as Zara will prefer to just go for a land war, since that option is available to him.

We'll use Galley 3, after he delivers a Confucian Missionary to Sugar Daddy, to shuttle units from the Crabs area to Basra. With 3 movement Galleys, we can move between the square 1NW of Crabs and directly into Basra, unloading the troops in Basra using the Unload command.

So, we simply need to march units over to Crabs, get them to board Galley 3, and then they can unload in Basra before Galley 3 makes its return trip. It would be best to click on Galley 3 again (you'll have to click again because it will have used up all 3 of ites movement points) and unload the units right away, so that you don't forget to do so on the following turn.

Other Cities CAN EASILY MAKE DO with a minimal garrison.

Mystic doesn't even need a defender, for example, as it is so small and will not be the first City attacked. Other Cities can get away with just a Warrior for Military Police.

If Justinian or Toku want to attack us pre-Astronomy, there is only one City that they can hit with little warning, and that's Crabs. Well, look at that--we'll be funneling all of our Barb-City-capturing troops through Crabs, so we will actually have defenders should we be attacked by one of those two.

If, however, Justinian or Toku walk through our borders with Galleys, we know that they'll be gunning for Zara. The Apostolic Palace can save Zara, and if things get hot and heavy, we control the ball by being able to Close Borders with the aggressor, should Zara be losing badly.


Really, we have a lot of control over Justinian and Toku due to the map layout forcing them into a "choke point" of having to attack Crabs or having to walk through our territory if they want to get at Zara. If you're extremely paranoid, you could put 1 Longbowman in Risaia, but the rest of our core Cities could easily get by with just Warriors for Military Police.

That way, we CAN funnel most of the army that you create to the west, with the exception of 2 Longbowmen and 2 Spearmen (1 of each to stand guard in Riverdale and 1 of each to stand guard in Wheaties).


Once troops unload in Basra, they will march to the far west of the continent (you might as well save your braincells and auto-move them). When they arrive in Trebizond (Justinian's far south-western City), we can load two of them onto Galley 1. Then, Galley 1 can end its turn. On the following turn, Galley 1 can unload troops on the Grassland peninsula SW + SW of Trebizond and retreat back into Trebizond to allow 2 more troops to load up, ending its turn in Treibozond. That way, our 2 landed troops (Longbowmen would be my suggestion--6 Hitpoints plus the First Strike ability, even without a Hills square, will make them our best pre-Machinery defensive units) can then play "spotters" for Barb Galleys, being able to see Barb Galleys approaching. We'll probably keep unloading troops this way until we get a stack of 8+ units, then slow-march it to the Barb City.


That approach offers us 100% safety from Barb Galleys and it also gives us a lot of time to watch for Barb Mech Infantry chasing after us. Further, if there are Mech Infantry, it'll be best to meet them out on that peninsula, where they will have to keep fighting our units instead of killing a unit and then retreating into a City to heal and then repeating until our army is gone.


Barb City Military Units

LBows alone can't work: in the open they are pretty poor defenders, unless on a hill.
LBows + Xbows is the way to go, and even a spear in case the barbs have HAs.

Longbowmen are still the best all-around defenders that we have on flat ground pre-Machinery. Sure, if we get Machinery in trade in time to whip a couple of Crossbowmen or better yet, Macemen, sure, let's do so. But we can't hinge our Military plans on a technology that we might not get for a while.

Without Machinery, a combo of Longbowmen and Axemen will own most Barb units. The last I checked, not every AI had Feudalism, so if we attack soon enough, the Barbs might not even have their own Longbowmen.

Barbs, even given a Horse Resource, so very rarely produce a mounted unit that I wouldn't even bother with a Spearman--a Longbowman would be good enough as an "all-around defender" in place of a Spearman for the Barbs--it's obviously a different story for Zara who has been limited to building Chariots and Longbowmen, so a Spearman per border City with Zara makes a lot of sense.

Why axemen instead of the similar but surely superior macemen? We should be able to get Machinery in time for the war Civics.

If you can get Macemen, do so. They're a better choice than Crossbowmen except when facing off against other Macemen, but the Barbs won't have the tech for Macemen, since we're keeping the ability to build them out of most of the AIs' hands, too. So, yes, if you get Machinery in time, go nuts and make Macemen instead of Axemen. The Axemen idea was so that we didn't have to delay in case Zara decided not to trade Machinery with us or decided that he'd switch his Science Slider and take 30 turns to learn Machinery or something.

It's nice to dream (getting Macemen) but it's good to have a workable backup plan (Axemen) in place.


So, that would be my current recommendation: Go with plan E), forget the Triremes, and figure out a distribution of military units to keep our homeland security "lean" in terms of putting a Warrior as our City Police unit in many of our Cities.


If Zara DOES attack us, please pause play, as we might want to stay at war with him if it happens--it'll be a lot easier to keep Toku happy and it'll be a lot easier to gift him Riverdale as part of a Peace Treaty if Toku or others treat him as their Worst Enemy at "gifting time."


Most importantly, leave our eastern Galley (Galley 2, by Ivory Towers) where it is, as it is currently performing a Blockade Mission. I don't know if it's working, but Isabella is quite backwards, so it does have a good chance of being effective. Plus, we want to go back to our original plan of delaying contact with Mehmed until we have Buddhist Missionaries, which will likely mean "delay contact until well after your turnset."

Do you mean 2 spearmen and 2 longbowmen each city for 4 spears + 4 longbows total, or 1 in each for 2 total?

1 Longbowman + 1 Spearman for Wheaties
1 Longbowman + 1 Spearman for Riverdale

Later, we can consider increasing the garrison, but that should be sufficient to deter Zara from making a casual assault on us.

unless I leave most cities still defended only by warriors?

As I explained, we'll be fine with that situation, as we'll have Zara covered. We'll also have our "chokepoint for Toku and Justinian" Crabs City covered by the very nature of us marching our army through that same chokepoint.

I could just put the spearmen+longbow in the border cities and send the rest overseas.

Sounds great!

I'll need to build at least a couple of galleys to transport them too

Why bother when our western buddies have already built a nice Road system for us? We have enough Galleys to make our plan work without needing to build even one more.

we don't want the troops we send to be obsolete before they arrive

The best way to accomplish that goal (not letting our troops get obsolete) is to only trade for the techs on our beeline, which means that the AIs will get less techs in trade, which by the very nature of how Barbs work, keeps the Barbs out of the "good techs," like Civil Service, too.

Basically, stick to our plan and we shouldn't have to worry about our troops becoming obsolete (Axemen should even work, Macemen will be overkill, but why not overkill if you can afford to do so?).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

212: Whip granary in goldfish, and work gold for a turn.

Please note that the only reason that we were working a Gold instead of the Fish for a turn was because previously, we weren't in Slavery until much later and had passed the ideal time to whip the Granary. If you can whip such that the City will be whipped to Size 1 with 15 to 18 Food in its Foodbox (which it sounds like you are doing), then please just keep working the Fish after whipping, as working the Fish will be the best approach in this case (as well as being the easier method to handle, micromanagement-wise).

211: Worker 8 SW farm (helping worker 1).

What's your plan for incorporating my suggesitons of things like having sent Worker 1 towards Grt Person Farm on this turn, instead of staying working this Farm... have you captured those suggestions in an offline document or have you still yet to go through them or maybe you just didn't like what I suggested?

215: Whale settler wait (for how long?)

There's no rush to take down our economy further, is there? At best, we'd stagnate by working a Silver, and with the additional Civics' Cost and Number of Cities Cost, in addition to this City's Maintenance Costs, we'd be losing out. Since we wouldn't be growing the City, we wouldn't really even be "investing" in Diplo votes. So, I'd say keep him on standby (Skip his turn on a turn-by-turn basis in the real game--I don't care if you Fortify him in the test saved game), so that if an AI sends a Settler Party, we'll beat them.

Note that no AI Galley Settler Parties can come from the west, due to the Iceburg blocking them, so you're only really watching for Zara to send a Settler. Zara could be sneaky and use either a Galley or a land-route, but if you have the Settler Skip his turn on each turn, you'll see if Zara landed a Settler on the northern Silver (that's where he settled in our test game when there wasn't room for Addis Ababa in the east). He could potentially land on the southern Silver, too, but whatever--with your "active" Settler Skipping its turn on a turn-by-turn basis, you won't have to worry about Zara stealing the spot, which should probably be the only reason why you'd settle Whales within your turnset.

217: Confucian missionary on a boat to Sugardaddy.

If you really think that Galley 3 can't get to Crabs in time to shuttle over units, it would be okay if you built 1 more Galley for that purpose. Still, Galley 3 DOES have 3 movement per turn and remember that you can "cut the corner" by walking THROUGH Three Clams, to save you some movement points, so I'm thinking that if you get a Confucian Missionary offloading at Sugar Daddy on T218, then we should be able to get Galley 3 to the west in time to start shuttling Military units for the Barb Cities.

218: Leave the Sugardaddy galley there for a while to transport the worker when he's done mining (I didn't do this in the test game).

Hmm, well that might be a reason for us to have another Galley. I'll leave it up to you to decide if you want another Galley.

Don't forget to at least get a COUPLE of Catapults, though, as we know that there are Cultural Defenses to take down at (at least) the northern Barb City.

221: Worker5 WSW, ready to chop for Mystic (ok ok he can pchop on the way).

It's hard to tell which Forest you are talking about by just "chop for Mystic," since there are so many Forests near there, so I will leave it in your capable hands not to chop a Forest that lies outside of our cultural borders, like the 3 Forests S + S of Mystic, SW + S of Mystic, and SE + S of Mystic currently are.

227: GP born in Dehli - should decide what we might do with one.

Great Prophet? Save it for the end. We'll have built most of the Wonders that we will want to build in Delhi, so we're better of saving Great People instead of using them up at this stage of the game.

Great Scientist? Save it to Lightbulb a tech after Scientific Method.

Assuming that we haven't had to use Liberalism on Astronomy, assuming that the AIs are close to getting Liberalism, and assuming that we have enough Great Scientists and Flask rate to be able to manually research Scientific Method with 2 Great Scientists Lightbulbed into the tech, then we can consider Lightbulbing Scientific Method and taking Physics with Liberalism. That's a lot of "ifs," though, so more realistically, we'll save such a Great Scientist for Lightbulbing a tech after Scientific Method.

Great Engineer? Park his butt in Delhi. We now have the freedom to built the UN in any City in the world. We'll decide if we'll use him that way or in a different way on a future turnset, as you won't have any Wonder worth rushing with a Great Engineer at this point, anyway.

Great Artist? Park his butt in Delhi. We can use him as one of our Final Four or to Lighbulb one of Radio or Mass Media.

Great Spy or Great Merchant? Hopefully neither will be possible, as we would prefer to run Scientist Specialists to either of the other two kinds of Specialists. If it does manage to happen, park his butt in Delhi.

Hmmm, do we have a theme here? I guess I could have just said to fortify whatever you get, but I didn't know that would be the answer until I'd worked through all of the possibilities...

228/229: Some worker actions, not noted as they're running out of things to do and just filling in the gaps now. Suggestions welcome. One should probably have gone and mined (but not roaded) the iron in case we want to actually settle Whales at some point.

Actually, that Iron Mine is a VERY LOW priority square. I honestly don't think that we'll ever work it. The City will have at most 4 Food surplus from working a Whale with a Lighthouse plus a GIrr square. Unless it stole a 2nd GIrr square from Delhi, we'd end up going below what I would call the "minimum desired Food surplus" of 3 Food surplus per turn just by working that Ice Iron Mine.

So, chances are that we'll never work that square.

Even putting Roads in the area of Whales might not be a great idea, as you don't want Zara to sneak in a City past your very eyes because you weren't expecting him to use your own Road network against you...

I'm out of awake-time for tonight, but if you manage to run thorugh another test saved game and can point out a saved game where you feel that you don't know what to do with the Workers, tell me which saved game it is and I'll see if I can offer some suggestions.

 

[Irgy]

Please note that the only reason that we were working a Gold instead of the Fish for a turn was because previously, we weren't in Slavery until much later and had passed the ideal time to whip the Granary. If you can whip such that the City will be whipped to Size 1 with 15 to 18 Food in its Foodbox (which it sounds like you are doing), then please just keep working the Fish after whipping, as working the Fish will be the best approach in this case (as well as being the easier method to handle, micromanagement-wise).

It's a bit tight actually. The first turn it's ready to whip by having enough hammers to 1-pop whip, it will have 16 (out of 33 after whipping - numbers might be out but I remember it was 1 less than half which is the important thing) food in the foodbox. However, on the turn it's whipped, it would get another 5 food working the fish that I am assuming wouldn't go into the granary, which would bring it past half way. I'm not sure if that's right though, is the granary built first or the food distributed first? If the food is done first we want to hold back, otherwise we don't. The safer option is to just work the fish of course.

What's your plan for incorporating my suggesitons of things like having sent Worker 1 towards Grt Person Farm on this turn, instead of staying working this Farm... have you captured those suggestions in an offline document or have you still yet to go through them or maybe you just didn't like what I suggested?

I've incorporated as many as possible, but it's an awkward process to transfer them from the forum post to the test game and PPP, and things can get missed. I'd like to have a better process, in the same way that like I'd like to have more spare time. That one in particular though I did remember, and decided I disagreed with at the time I ran the test game through, but actually agree with now. Either way the improvements are done in time in the short term, but the workers in the south are further behind in what they're doing, so giving them a couple of turns' boost will smooth things out further down the track.

There's no rush to take down our economy further, is there? At best, we'd stagnate by working a Silver, and with the additional Civics' Cost and Number of Cities Cost, in addition to this City's Maintenance Costs, we'd be losing out. Since we wouldn't be growing the City, we wouldn't really even be "investing" in Diplo votes. So, I'd say keep him on standby (Skip his turn on a turn-by-turn basis in the real game--I don't care if you Fortify him in the test saved game), so that if an AI sends a Settler Party, we'll beat them.

Note that no AI Galley Settler Parties can come from the west, due to the Iceburg blocking them, so you're only really watching for Zara to send a Settler. Zara could be sneaky and use either a Galley or a land-route, but if you have the Settler Skip his turn on each turn, you'll see if Zara landed a Settler on the northern Silver (that's where he settled in our test game when there wasn't room for Addis Ababa in the east). He could potentially land on the southern Silver, too, but whatever--with your "active" Settler Skipping its turn on a turn-by-turn basis, you won't have to worry about Zara stealing the spot, which should probably be the only reason why you'd settle Whales within your turnset.

Ok.

If you really think that Galley 3 can't get to Crabs in time to shuttle over units, it would be okay if you built 1 more Galley for that purpose. Still, Galley 3 DOES have 3 movement per turn and remember that you can "cut the corner" by walking THROUGH Three Clams, to save you some movement points, so I'm thinking that if you get a Confucian Missionary offloading at Sugar Daddy on T218, then we should be able to get Galley 3 to the west in time to start shuttling Military units for the Barb Cities.

I had the mistaken view that we needed to Galley all the way to the barb city. If we can just ferry across and walk then let's do that. It's 50% quicker to go by sea, but not considering it's probably a little less direct with winding coastline, and that we'd need to wait to build more galleys.

Hmm, well that might be a reason for us to have another Galley. I'll leave it up to you to decide if you want another Galley.

It's not a problem, the galley should be freed up again by the time the worker's free anyway.

Don't forget to at least get a COUPLE of Catapults, though, as we know that there are Cultural Defenses to take down at (at least) the northern Barb City.

Indeed, catapults are made of win.

It's hard to tell which Forest you are talking about by just "chop for Mystic," since there are so many Forests near there, so I will leave it in your capable hands not to chop a Forest that lies outside of our cultural borders, like the 3 Forests S + S of Mystic, SW + S of Mystic, and SE + S of Mystic currently are.

The marked one. It's outside cultural borders at first, but in the test game Dehli swalled it up before I chopped it. I'll make sure I don't chop outside borders in any case.

Great Prophet? Save it for the end. We'll have built most of the Wonders that we will want to build in Delhi, so we're better of saving Great People instead of using them up at this stage of the game.

Great Scientist? Save it to Lightbulb a tech after Scientific Method.

Assuming that we haven't had to use Liberalism on Astronomy, assuming that the AIs are close to getting Liberalism, and assuming that we have enough Great Scientists and Flask rate to be able to manually research Scientific Method with 2 Great Scientists Lightbulbed into the tech, then we can consider Lightbulbing Scientific Method and taking Physics with Liberalism. That's a lot of "ifs," though, so more realistically, we'll save such a Great Scientist for Lightbulbing a tech after Scientific Method.

Great Engineer? Park his butt in Delhi. We now have the freedom to built the UN in any City in the world. We'll decide if we'll use him that way or in a different way on a future turnset, as you won't have any Wonder worth rushing with a Great Engineer at this point, anyway.

Great Artist? Park his butt in Delhi. We can use him as one of our Final Four or to Lighbulb one of Radio or Mass Media.

Great Spy or Great Merchant? Hopefully neither will be possible, as we would prefer to run Scientist Specialists to either of the other two kinds of Specialists. If it does manage to happen, park his butt in Delhi.

Hmmm, do we have a theme here? I guess I could have just said to fortify whatever you get, but I didn't know that would be the answer until I'd worked through all of the possibilities...

Well, that's what I'd have done as well. I'd have considered building the Confucian building with a prophet, as we'd get a fair bit of cash from it, but we don't want to spread the religion.

Actually, that Iron Mine is a VERY LOW priority square. I honestly don't think that we'll ever work it. The City will have at most 4 Food surplus from working a Whale with a Lighthouse plus a GIrr square. Unless it stole a 2nd GIrr square from Delhi, we'd end up going below what I would call the "minimum desired Food surplus" of 3 Food surplus per turn just by working that Ice Iron Mine.

So, chances are that we'll never work that square.

Great, I won't worry about it then.

I'm out of awake-time for tonight, but if you manage to run thorugh another test saved game and can point out a saved game where you feel that you don't know what to do with the Workers, tell me which saved game it is and I'll see if I can offer some suggestions.

It's not so much that I can't think of something for them to do as that I think they're reaching the point where we don't need to plan them out quite so much. I'll at least write down what I do in the run through from the updated test game.

 

[Irgy]

So, I'm fairly convinced of the option that we forget the war with Mehmed, and go after this barb city. I'll play through from the updated save accordingly, and update the PPP to match afterwards. This won't actually make any substantial change to my PPP, it just changes the galleys' movements and the types of military units built.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

It's a bit tight actually. The first turn it's ready to whip by having enough hammers to 1-pop whip, it will have 16 (out of 33 after whipping - numbers might be out but I remember it was 1 less than half which is the important thing) food in the foodbox. However, on the turn it's whipped, it would get another 5 food working the fish that I am assuming wouldn't go into the granary, which would bring it past half way. I'm not sure if that's right though, is the granary built first or the food distributed first? If the food is done first we want to hold back, otherwise we don't. The safer option is to just work the fish of course.

Since you will be whipping such that the Foodbox will be in the range that I provided, you will get the ideal result by continuing to work the Fish.

Consider your earlier point:
If we work the Gold, we don't just alter the value of the Foodbox, but we also lose out on 2 Commerce from the Fish. Yes, we get to work the Gold square for 1 more turn. However, we will grow to Size 2 one turn slower, whereas if we grew to Size 2 one turn faster, there would be our chance to "work the Gold for one extra turn," making up for working the Gold earlier. So, what's the difference? Only what we get out of the Fish for that one turn.

So, we'd lose the 2 Commerce from the Fish. In addition, we would have a bit less Food overall, which may or may not affect us in the short term if we'll end up growing to Size 3 at the same time in either scenario, but will affect us as soon as we go to grow to a City Size where we'll fall 1 turn behind.

As for the Granary, it works with the range that I provided. Run both scenarios yourself, if you are not convinced, and I'm sure that you'll find that I am right.

Besides, it's easier to remember to just keeping working the Fish, right?

I've incorporated as many as possible, but it's an awkward process to transfer them from the forum post to the test game and PPP, and things can get missed. I'd like to have a better process, in the same way that like I'd like to have more spare time.

Okay, well I cannot control how much spare time you will have, but we do have control over the process.

Any suggestions that would make the process easier for you are welcome.

If you want, we can use instant messenger to talk about changes. Since the final result (the PPP) ends up here anyway and since it's just the niggling little details, I don't see how anyone would really care about missing out on that exchange.

We still have the "token-checking-out" option, but as long as you are still actively running test saved games and are updating your PPP as a result of your testing, where applicable, I see no reason to exercise that option.

That one in particular though I did remember, and decided I disagreed with at the time I ran the test game through, but actually agree with now.

I know that it can take time to respond to every comment, but if there are several bits of advice that you're ignoring, it would be nice to know which ones.

Where possible, I tried to list how changes would impact each other--such as whether or not to build a 4th Galley being dependent upon the timing of being able to get Galley 3 back from Sugar Daddy, but I didn't necessarily list ALL of the connections of how one idea might be interconnected to another idea. So, sometimes it can be worse to "mix and match" ideas when they are interconnected and you choose to do one of them but not the other, than to just, say, stick with doing both of them or neither of them.

I had the mistaken view that we needed to Galley all the way to the barb city. If we can just ferry across and walk then let's do that. It's 50% quicker to go by sea, but not considering it's probably a little less direct with winding coastline, and that we'd need to wait to build more galleys.

Yes, let's abuse the western trans-international highway system to its fullest!

While you are right in that if we were ferrying 2 uber-units (a Grenadier and an Artillery) then sure, we'd get there faster by Galley.

But the next round of troops would either need another Galley or would arrive slower.

Finally, there is the issue of a Barb Galley meeting our Galley anywhere along the way and sinking us, so we'd probably want AT LEAST one Trireme escort, possibly more than one.

Suddenly, we're back to the idea of building a navy and will have no more resources left for our land army...

With this "troop shuttling" technique, according to the loading points and drop-off points that I laid out, our western Galley will never end its turn outside of an AI's City, so it will be invulnerable to Barb Galleys, and our Basra drop-off point has our Galley either end its turn in Basra or well within our Cultural borders--and being within our Cultural borders means that we can spot a Barb Galley before it arrives from wherever it spawned and sailed (which would probably have been a long, long distance away!).

Well, that's what I'd have done as well. I'd have considered building the Confucian building with a prophet, as we'd get a fair bit of cash from it, but we don't want to spread the religion.

While it sounds tempting to build a Holy Shrine, you're right about not wanting to spread the Religion around.

Further, since we're pretty late in the game, I'm not convinced that getting one would pay off more than Lightbulbing with a Great Artist or Great Scientist would give us. How is that in any way comparable, you might ask? Well, since this game is unique in that we need to save 4 Great People at the end, if we use up a Great Prophet, then that's one less Great Scientist or Great Artist than can Lightbulb a tech. So in this particular game, saving-up the "wrong" Great People is an investment in getting us more of the "right" Great People to add useful contributions to our society beyond pleasing El Dino.

It's not so much that I can't think of something for them to do as that I think they're reaching the point where we don't need to plan them out quite so much.

If that situation turns out to be true, then I think that BLubz will do a little dance and start jumping for joy.

 

[Irgy]

Hopefully the last version. If no-one objects or discovers any other major issues I'll play it tomorrow night (24hrs from now). I'd like to do it sooner but I've got something on during the day tomorrow, and I think it's worth giving people time to respond rather than doing it now.

I've now played it through the updated test game. No major dramas. Much thanks to Dhoomstriker for all his work fixing that.

PPP – T209 (535 AD) to T230 (? AD)

Summary of the Current Situation
Diplomatic
Zara is worst enemy of Toku. No other worst enemies nor negative diplo modifier totals.

Tokugawa, Justinian and Saladin all mutually Friendly. Zara is friendly with us. No-one else is friendly.

We have yet to meet Mehmed, and plan to keep it that way for the time being, to avoid having to choose between Mehmed and Isabella.

Resource Trading
No AIs have resources available to trade. The UP player is responsible for checking for available trades. We should trade health resources first and happiness only if it's worthwhile.

We should avoid connecting a second of any strategic resources, to avoid demands for those resources.

Technologies
Saladin will trade machinery. Justinian and Saladin won't trade Drama. Tokugawa won't trade Machinery and Horseback Riding. We have a monopoly on paper and philosophy, and plan to keep it that way.

We plan to trade Civil Service with some cash to Zara for Machinery.

Civics
The plan is to switch to slavery on T210. Then, after whipping up to 6 universities, we switch to military civics (Theocracy, Vassalage, Police State). After a hectic 5 turns with these civics, we will switch back to Representation, Beaurocracy, Organised Religion. Once we have grown and spread religions enough (outside this turn set) we should switch to Cast System and Pacifism.

Research
We will bulb Education immediately, and switch research to Liberalism. We will research most of Liberalism, but stop before completing it. By then we hope to have picked up Machinery in trade, and can start on Printing Press, with the hope of getting the rest of Compass and all of Optics in trade. We have a monopoly on Paper and Philosophy, and intend to keep it that way for as long as possible.

Religion
Sugardaddy needs Confucianism. Risaia should gain confucianism the next turn. We intend to spread Buddhism to as many cities as possible. We intend to spread Judaism to Crabs cities for extra temple happiness.

High-level Build Plans

Delhi: Switch to forge T209, sacking scientists to work mines. Whip forge, and overflow to the University of Sankore. Then 1 turn and a whip into a Confucian Monastery, overflowing again to University of Sankore. Once UoS is complete, 1 turn then whip a university. Finally, slow-build Oxford University. After oxford we should work scientists again instead of mines.

Silverado: Slow build a library, working sea squares, deer, and silver. Whip library the turn before UoS completes in Dehli. Then 1 turn and whip a university in time for Oxford in Dehli. Next spearman, confucian temple, forge.

Riverdale: Finish Christian temple, then build university (whipped). Forge for a turn, then longbow (whipped), spearman, and back to forge.

Bedrock: Switch to confucian temple, whipped. Then build university. Finish the longbow after the military civic switch, then build a maceman, and start on a Confucian monastery.

Wheaties: Confucian Temple, whipped, then library and university. Longbow on the military turns, then start a Confucian Monastery.

Grt Person Farm: Work 8 scientists for a turn, and build a forge. Whip the forge next turn, and overflow to Buddhist temple. Build a Jewish then a Buddhist missionary. Then the university (whipped). Whip catapult and maceman. Start on a courthouse.

Risaia: Settler, Confucian Missionary (whipped), Confucian Temple (whipped), Confucian monastery (whipped), Longbow (whipped), Catapult (whipped), library.

Crabs: Confucian Temple (whipped), overflow to Buddhist missionary, Cofucian Monastery (whipped), finish Buddhist missionary, lighthouse (whipped), longbow (whipped), forge.

Three Clams: Confucian Temple (whipped), Library, Uni (whipped), Long bow (whipped), catapult (whipped), forge.

Sugar Daddy: Lighthouse (whipped), forge, switch to Confucian temple when Confucianism arrives. Interrupt with longbow (whipped), back to temple.

Goldfish: Granary (whipped), Confucian temple (whipped), Confucian monastery.

Ivory Towers: Granary (whipped), workboat (whipped), Trireme

Mystic: Granary (some chopping), lighthouse.


Worker Actions
See detailed PPP.

Non-worker Unit Movements
Galley to ferry to Sugardady, then around to ferry units to Saladin's territory, and finally around to ferry those units to the barbarian island. Missionaries spread buddhism, confucianism to Sugardaddy and Judaism to Crabs. Military units all head to barbarian city, except for 1 longbow and 1 spearman in each of Riverdale and Wheaties.

From Dhoomstriker's comment:

Please send Galley 1 to the square that is N + N + N of Kagoshima and SE + E of Ghuzz, followed by sending him into Justinian's City named Polynesian on the west Coast of his continent. I would not put Galley 1 on "auto-move," as we REALLY need map intelligence of Toku's navy and Justinian's navy, and the only way that you'll get that is to move 1 square at a time, 3 times a turn, watching for their boats and making a list of every boat that you pass or that passes you in-between turns.

Our workboat heads the long way around to Whales, waiting for a while at the border of Zara's land before we can send it through.

Turn-by-Turn Plan.
Does not contain the buildings, will be updated to at least have the ones which interrupt other buildings at a later stage.

209: Bulb education, research Liberalism. Worker5 chops. Confucianism spread in Risaia. Buddhism spread to Silverado (failed in test game). WB heads towards Whale. Dehli sacks scientists and works mines. GPF hires 8 scientists, while crabs steal the food. Trade wheat to Zara for 2gpt. Send a galley to ferry to Sugardaddy, and a galley to meet Mehmed.

210: Worker 5 head to grass between wheaties and Mystic for farming. Worker1 3S farm for Bedrock (and cancel). Worker8 3SW. Revolt to Slavery. Whip in: Dehli, Bedrock, Wheaties, GPF, Crabs, Sugardaddy.

211: Worker 8 SW farm (where worker 1 was). Worker1 2SW farm (between crabs and GPF). Worker5 farm grasslands near wheaties for irrigation. Whip in 3Clams.

212: Worker3 SW farm another grass near Dehli. Settler to Whales spot. Worker6 SW farm and cancel. Worker7 W mine (near ivory). Whip granary in goldfish, and work gold for a turn.

213: Worker6 2SE farm. Buddhist missionary to Bedrock. Worker1 2SW farm. Whip in Dehli and 3Crabs.

214: Worker 2 road incense.

215: Buddist missionary to 3Clams. Worker4 1S. Worker8 1N Chop. Whale settler wait, checking each turn from now on. Worker8 finishes chop. Buddhism spreads in Bedrock.

216: Worker5 1N farm. Worker7 road mines (nothing else to do at ivory).Worker 1 ESE and roads cow for 1 turn. Worker4 mine (jungle hill near Sugardaddy). Whip Confucian Missionary in Risaia.

217: Worker2 1SE plantation other incense. Worker 8 finishes chop. Worker3 1N farm. Worker 6 WSW farm. Confucian missionary on a boat to Sugardaddy. Whip Granary in Ivory Towers.

218: Buddhist missionary to Silverado (or somewhere else). Buddhism spreads in 3Clams. Confucianism spreads in Sugardaddy. Leave the Sugardaddy galley there for a while to transport the worker when he's done mining (I didn't do this in the test game). Whip in Silverado, Risaia, Goldfish.

219: University of Sankore done. Worker1 SSE farm. Riverdale whips university.

220: Buddhism in Silverdale (failed again in test game). AP Resoultion this turn, choose to open borders. Whip in: Dehli, Silverado, Bedrock, Wheaties, Great Person Farm, Risaia, Crabs, 3Clams. Change to military civics (Police State, Vassalage, Theocracy).

221: Worker8 SE farm. Worker5 WSW, ready to chop for Mystic (ok ok he can pchop on the way). Build military units nearly everywhere! Whip workboat in Ivory Towers.

222: Worker 6 S farm. Ivory Towers workboat settles. Worker 5 chop for Mystic. Worker3 1N farm. Trade for Machinery by now if possible. Whip in Riverdale, Risaia, 3Clams.

223: (nothing much happens)

224: Send worker4 back to the mainland. Worker5 finishes chop for Mystic granary. Worker2 roads other incense. Worker1 W farm. Whip in: Silverado, Riverdale, Bedrock, GPF, Risaia, Crabs, 3Clams, Sugardaddy.

225: Worker5 chop another forest for Mystic. Send the 3 Triremes towards Ivory Towers. Whip Trireme in Ivory Towers, before switching Civics back to Representation, Beaurocracy, Organised Religion.

226: Worker8 1S farm.

227: GP born in Dehli, could be anything, whatever it is we want to have it just wait around for the moment. Worker3 builds roads from Dehli to GPF. Worker5 finishes chop. Worker 2 roads a forest square to connect MYstic to the west without roading horses. Worker6 NNW farm.

228/229: Some worker actions, not noted as they're running out of things that are urgently needed. Not much else happening on these turns, everywhere is recovering from the crazy whipping frenzy (up to 100 turns unhappiness!)


The UP Player's Responsibilities for EACH TURN:

Spoiler :

1. Check the Foreign Advisor (F4) screens for any notable changes. The screens to check are F4 -> GLANCE, F4 -> RESOURCES, and F4 -> TECHS. Be prepared to react to changes or to seek feedback from teammates if you see a change.

Spoiler :

F4 -> GLANCE: Watch for blue-colored or red-colored relations, as those indicate Annoyed and Furious relationships and can indicate a Worst Enemy situation. There is a little "head on red-colored shoulders" icon to tell you which one of said players is that AI's Worst Enemy. We should avoid trading with anyone else's Worst Enemy and should only trade with a Worst Enemy after receiving team agreement on the issue. Also, watch for yellow-colored Friendly relationships, as those indicate AIs that will IMMEDIATELY give away the techs that you trade to them, unless you also trade to the AIs that this AI is Friendly with.

F4 -> RESOURCES: Watch the "Will Trade" columns, particularly the Import's "Will Trade" column, to see what new Resources an AI offers up in trade.

F4 -> TECHS: It helps to take a screenshot of this screen regularly and then compare this screen to your screenshot. Why? Because the "Wants" column may change, which indicates that an AI learned a tech, but the BUFFY Log does not tell you about this fact. Either memorize the list or screenshot it and compare against your screenshot. The other important column to watch is the "Will Trade" column, which indicates the techs that we can get in trade. We shouldn't necessarily trade as soon as a tech appears in this column, if perhaps waiting a few turns would allow for multiple techs to appear in this column from multiple AIs, meaning that we could trade around 1 of our techs (or 2 of our techs together) to get multiple tech deals on the same turn, instead of just one tech deal.

2. Look at the list of Leaders on the main game screen (the screen where you can open Cities, move units, etc). Watch for an orange-colored "fist" icon to appear to the right of the smiley faces and to the left of the right-side City-count numbers. If a fist appears, it means that an AI is at war or is planning to go to war. Here is where your paying attention to the F4 -> GLANCE screen pays off, as you can predict who they might be planning a war on. You can also check the F4 -> RELATIONS screen to see if they are already at war.
3. If you don't detail your Science Rate switches in your PPP, you must keep an eye on the Science Rate. Make sure that if we are low on Gold that we don't slip into a non-binary Science Rate, such as 80%, due to running out of Gold to fund 100% Science Rate Research.

Special things to watch for during this turnset:
Zara settling Wheaties.


Foreign Policies
Zara
We will keep closed borders with Zara until an AP resolution either forces them open, or gets him involved in a war with Mehmed. We need to be wary of trading with the enemy penalties from Toku if we trade with Zara, but he is currently a good trading partner. We should trade Wheat to him for gold-per-turn.

Isabella
Accept Isabella's demands EXCEPT if she asks us to switch to Hinduism--refuse to switch into that Religion, or else we might lose the race to the Apostolic Palace if we do switch Religions to Hinduism.
Do NOT trade techs with Isabella since she is Mehmed’s worst enemy.

We can accept Resource Trades with Saladin, Toku, and Justinian under these conditions:
1. We will aim to give away Health Resources first, even our only source of such a Resource. If an AI does not want those Resources, will can trade Happiness Resources but only if we have extras (such as when we get two Sugars connected). 2. We will accept Happiness Resources as a priority trade, followed by Gold per Turn trades of 3 Gold per Turn or more, followed by Health Resources.

Trading Techs to Saladin, Tokugawa and Justinian Only
If we trade a tech to one, we should also be prepared to trade it to the others on the same turn, even if we only get 20 Gold or so, otherwise the three will trade with each other and will become even more advanced than before. The exception to this rule is if we happen to trade it to Tokugawa (unlikely). He won’t trade it to the others, so we don’t have to trade it around to them unless he is Friendly with them.

The only techs that we should be trading for right now include Machinery, Compass and Optics, which are all on the Mass Media beeline.

Code of Laws, Philosophy, and Paper
We should avoid trading these as long as possible. We should only consider trading away these techs once two AIs have learned them, as at that point 3 players (counting us) will know said techs and the AIs may just start trading them around anyway. We might as well get some benefit out of trading them in such a scenario. For Paper and Philosophy, which both directly lead towards Liberalism, I will consult the team before trading them.

Even though both Sal and Justinian know Civil Service, I will NOT consider trading it to Tokugawa. We do not want him getting Samurai and we do not want him running Bureaucracy for as long as possible.

Since we’ve completed the Great Library already, we can consider trading our monopoly on Literature if a good trade comes along (i.e. for a Tech, not gold). We can also consider getting gold from Tokugawa such that he wins the race to Music. We don’t want Saladin to get the free GA and culture bomb cities affecting either Gold Fish or Crabs.

AI Demands for Techs
If either Justinian, Saladin or Toku demand a tech, even if it is one of our monopoly techs, I am afraid that we'll have to accept, so as to hopefully dissuade them from going to war with us and hopefully going after a different target (like Zara or perhaps no target at all). If one of them asks for Code of Laws, Philosophy, or Paper, the team should be consulted on the situation before deciding.

If another AI demands a tech other than Code of Laws, Philosophy, or Paper, we should give into that demand as long as that AI does not have a Worst Enemy. However, since Isabella and Zara are both a Worst Enemy, I would refuse said demand until the Worst Enemy condition goes away.

AI Demands for Gold
If an AI demands a quantity of Gold of 200 Gold or less, give into the demand since it shouldn't increase Traded with our Worst Enemy negative Diplo modifiers by TOO much. However, if there is some diplo room above Friendly with Zara, it may make sense to ignore such a demand from Zara so that we don’t tick off Tokugawa too much.


Uploaded just a few key saves, can give any others on request (but off to bed now). I'll need to run it through again on the improved test save anyway. At least I finally have a PPP. I need to play fairly soon to stay on schedule.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Uploaded just a few key saves, can give any others on request (but off to bed now).

Which set of saves should I be looking at? Or did you just not attach them to this message yet?

 

[Irgy]

Crossposted the PPP with Dhoomstriker's post, but it looks like for once nothing in it requires me to change anything

Since you will be whipping such that the Foodbox will be in the range that I provided, you will get the ideal result by continuing to work the Fish.

Yep that's what I thought. If I had all the time in the world I'd test it just on principle but happy to believe it works the way you say.

Okay, well I cannot control how much spare time you will have, but we do have control over the process.

Any suggestions that would make the process easier for you are welcome.

If you want, we can use instant messenger to talk about changes. Since the final result (the PPP) ends up here anyway and since it's just the niggling little details, I don't see how anyone would really care about missing out on that exchange.

We still have the "token-checking-out" option, but as long as you are still actively running test saved games and are updating your PPP as a result of your testing, where applicable, I see no reason to exercise that option.

That's the trouble though, I can see it's not perfect but I don't know what's better. I did at least re-read all of the posts on the last page with the PPP open for editting in another tab this time, hopefully I won't have missed much.

I know that it can take time to respond to every comment, but if there are several bits of advice that you're ignoring, it would be nice to know which ones.

I agree with what you're saying in general. The difference with this was that I wasn't sure either way. If I disagree with something I'll reply and give reasons, but if I'm just generally not completely convinced it's harder. I don't mean to just ignore anything though.

Yes, let's abuse the western trans-international highway system to its fullest!

While you are right in that if we were ferrying 2 uber-units (a Grenadier and an Artillery) then sure, we'd get there faster by Galley.

But the next round of troops would either need another Galley or would arrive slower.

Finally, there is the issue of a Barb Galley meeting our Galley anywhere along the way and sinking us, so we'd probably want AT LEAST one Trireme escort, possibly more than one.

Suddenly, we're back to the idea of building a navy and will have no more resources left for our land army...

With this "troop shuttling" technique, according to the loading points and drop-off points that I laid out, our western Galley will never end its turn outside of an AI's City, so it will be invulnerable to Barb Galleys, and our Basra drop-off point has our Galley either end its turn in Basra or well within our Cultural borders--and being within our Cultural borders means that we can spot a Barb Galley before it arrives from wherever it spawned and sailed (which would probably have been a long, long distance away!).

What had me confused is that it's on an island (from memory anyway, and in your updated test game also), so we need a galley again at some point. The trick of walking the troops while moving an empty galley to ferry them again later was new to me. Not that it's that complicated, just an unusual situation.