SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Dhoomstriker]

Thanks for all of your detailed answers, Mitchum!

Fog-busters, Extra Warriors, Riverdale Defenders, Etc

Spoiler :

Once we settle Riverdale, at least one warrior (or two?) will be parked there. That means we have 3 more units to fog bust, right?

It was my assumption that we would do one of EITHER:
Plan a) Have 2 Warrior defenders in Riverdale and allow the barbs in the NE to run wild. In case of a Barb attack or a suprise attack by Zara, we'll be well protected
Plan b) Eventually, the second Warrior (probably Warrior 4) will leave Riverside and go up to join Warrior 3. The two of them will move out together in tandem to fog-bust wherever you guys want to fog-bust. I would suggest that we start from the NE of Warrior 6, to continue the fog-busting from the west, and then slowly push the Barbs to the east. This way, there won't be enough Barb accumulation in order to enter our borders, while still leaving some of the NE to the Barbs. We can push the second Warrior steadily east until we've come to a point where we can remove the chance of a Barb City spawning, but will still leave the east of our planned Wheat City area to the Barbs

Mitchum seems to want to do:
Plan c) Build another Warrior in Silverado before our 3rd Worker. Use multiple Warriors to completely fog-bust the NE. My concern is that we want at least 1 Barb unit wandering in between Wheat and Zara, and if we fog-bust too effectively, we won't have this option. My other concern is the cost of building that additional Warrior in Silverado, which I think we can skip and, if the team's preference is to fog-bust any Barb Cities from spawning, go with plan b). My preferred plan is still plan a).

Then again, I am also used to "messing around with AIs," such as capturing their undefended Settlers with Warriors using chess-like moves to trick them. The BTS AI, although supposedly smarter, falls victim to this gambit far more easily than other AIs, partially because the BTS AI expands more readily before it has 2 Archers escorting each Settler. If you're not used to "messing around with AIs," or perhaps if you just absolutely don't want a Barb City to spawn, I can see how you'd prefer plan b). I would just rather push plan b) over plan c), as there should be no risk of a Barb City appearing to the NW of Zara in the Desert (and if it did, all the better, since we don't want to settle that area), as the Barbs are smart enough not to spawn a City next to junk land, while that Desert to the NW of Zara, with a Barb unit or two in it, can delay Zara from settling the Wheat, increasing our odds of building Wheat ourselves, which is the very same goal that we are trying to achieve by denying the Wheat to the Barbs, right? That's why I push for plan b) over plan c).

Displaying the Large Version of Images in Your Messages

Spoiler :

I propose we place them as shown in the attached screen shot.

Just a tip: an uploaded screenshot, or any image from the web, actually, can be displayed by putting it in beween tags, such as:
[IMG]{The image's URL goes here} [ /IMG]
If you use the Attachments link in order to upload an attachment to a Message in this thread, then, inside of the Attachments' pop-up window, once the file has been uploaded, a texual link to the file will appear. Copy this link by right-clicking on it and choosing your web browser's closest version of "Copy Link Location." Then you can either type in the [IMG] tags manually or you can use the following Insert Image icon [IMG]http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/editor/insertimage.gif, located just below the "Attachments" icon, in order to create the image tags for you. Just click on the spot in your Message where you want the image to appear, click on that icon, and supply the URL into the pop-up window. You're done!

Links to Civfanatics' Lessons on Maintenance

Spoiler :

By the way, what is the formula for the number of units we can have outside our borders? Does it go up as our empire grows?

No, the Unit Supply value, which counts all units outside of our borders, does not grow as time wears on. That's why waging a war costs you money in Maintenance.

The actual value of "Free" Unit Support is 4, but then it appears that the cost for 1 additional unit is + 0.5, rounded down, hence why we get 5 for free but why the 6th one costs us 1 more Gold per Turn.

The Unit Cost value, which counts all units that your empire has, goes up over time.

That's my understanding, anyway.

See the following first link for more details, as well as the other links for more Maintenance-related info:
Unit Maintenance
Civic Upkeep
City Upkeep

Warrior 6 can safely fog-bust, don't worry. Here are the 5 Warriors that I propose, if we go with Plan b) listed at the start of this message, and where they will go

Spoiler :

I’m all for getting a worker out (2 more actually). But I’d like to use warrior 6 to prevent a barb from spawning 3N of the cows on our peninsula.

I'm pretty sure that the timing works out that Riverside gets settled just before we're about to send Warrior 6 outside of our borders, meaning that sending Warrior 6 outside of our borders should be "free."

By following Plan b) outlined at the start of this Message, we would have the following 5 free Warriors outside of our borders:
Warrior 1: far NW fog-buster
Warrior 2: far west fog-buster
Warrior 6: close NW fog-buster
Warrior 3 & Warrior 4: Teamed-up together to spawn-bust the area NE of Warrior 6, then pushing out a bit further east such that we "protect" the Wheat from Barb City spawning but don't over-fog-bust such that Zara will have a Barb-free path to the Wheat.

Future Fog-busting

Spoiler :

How about after settling Stone?

Stone City would overlap at least one of our outside-of-our borders' Warriors, so we'd get at least 1 more unit allowed to be sent out to fog-bust the far NE near the Wheat, once we have Settler 5 or are close to getting it.

Whipping the Library but not whipping or chopping the Temple

Spoiler :

Agreed. I think 3 chops into the Oracle/library with a 2 pop rush is good. There should be quite a bit of overflow into the temple, such that it can be built the slow way in 2 to 3 turns.

I seem to remember the Temple taking 4 turns to complete, but since we're delaying Meditation, we're delaying the Turn that Settler 4 needs to be ready, and since we're growing while building the Temple, I think that I'll be fine with any of those numbers (2, 3, or 4 Turns to complete the Temple).

Whipping the Library is good because we can make immediate use out of it. We can only make immediate use out of the Temple if we plan to get Meditation before researching Pottery, which was shown as inefficient for our economy. The only plus to getting Meditation first is that itreduce the chances of losing Christianity to an AI that beelines Theology.

More Time to Grow Delhi -> Can we Gain an Increase in Population?

Spoiler :

I don’t think this is necessary, but testing would be required. I had to purposefully slow settler 4 down so that he wouldn’t come too early.

I'm sorry, but I didn't make my question very clear. What I want to know is: if we spend less turns on building the Settler by putting a Forest chop into it and thus grow Delhi for the number of turns saved, will that extra growth be enough to get us an additional population point. I'm not expecting you to have the answer, but it is something that I want to find out via testing.

It does matter to know NOW, though, as chopping that extra Forest will change the paths that the Workers will take, which need to be planned out before we start moving the Workers. Make sense?

Test Game Questions about Civic Switches

Spoiler :

The only way to map this out exactly is to play a test game and see for yourself what works.

Which is exactly what I am doing.

Do you have any dates (I could turn numbers to be equivalent )for your Civic switches, or if not dates, any rough ideas? Such as: "I only used Slavery for Delhi's Library and Riverside's Monument, then switched out of it and didn't use it again," or "only switched back into Slavery in order to whip a Granary in Delhi," etc?

Also, you mentioned going in and out of Organized Religion. Was doing so only for a 5-turn-period of running No State Religion once Christianity is founded?

Warrior 7

Spoiler :

I’d have to run a test, but I don’t think we need military police in Delhi just yet. After whipping two pops and building the temple, we’ll even have a bit more leeway, right?

I don't have a better spot to send Warrior 7 than Delhi, and eventually, we'll want the extra Happiness, even if said Happiness is barely "not required" for now.

 

[Mitchum]

While Dhoomstriker works out the detailed worker actions for the next 45 turns, I'd like to propose the following for the Oracle chops.

Spoiler :

Worker 1 can chop tile 1a. This tile is surrounded by four forests and has the highest probability of re-growth. He could then pre-chop the tiles labeled Pa for 1 turn each (be sure to cancel worker actions right away) as he works his way around to help build the mine.

Worker 2 can go to tile 2b right away and chop that tile. Once the forest is chopped, he starts building a mine with worker 1's help.

Then, both workers can go to tile 3ab for the final chop. This tile is surrounded by 3 forests and has a decent chance of re-growth. If it doesn't re-grow, this is a great tile for our first cottage.

If we agree on this part of the plan and what to do with the warriors, I think havr can get started, right? All of the rest of our chopping will not be done to completion until Math comes in, so we'll have many turns for possible re-growth on two of the forests we've chopped (1a and 3ab).

FYI, I had 3 forests grow in my game between T76 and T135, but not in these two squares.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The Exception to the Forest-chopping Rule

Spoiler :

Worker 1 can chop tile 1a. This tile is surrounded by four forests and has the highest probability of re-growth.

In ONE of my Forest-chopping messages, I talked about the probabilities of regrowth.

I spoke about a Forest being surrounded by 4 Forests as having the highest regrowth possiblity, so it's usually the first one to chop.

However, I spoke of an exception case, and used the exact square that you mention as my exception case. Long-story-short (good luck in searching for my old message--the "Search this thread" tool works pretty well, by the way--but I don't want to regurgitate the whole thing again):
Since we have such a heavily-Forested area or squares like the western Corn and the Lake to the south that "surround" the Forests that surround 1a's Forest, those other Forests have low chances of causing regrowth elsewhere.

Therefore, if we instead chop the surrounding squares to the west, north, and east, we'll exchange the 4 possible regrowth opportunities on 1a, plus the lost chance for the Forest to the north of 1a to grow 1 square further north onto the Plains square to the NW of the Grassland Copper (so a total of 5 regrowth opportunities) for:
3 regrowth opportunities on the square to the west of 1a
+ 2 regrowth opportunities on the square to the north of 1a
+ 1 regrowth opportunitiy on the square to the east of 1a
---
= 6 regrowth opoprtunities
Giving us 1 extra regrowth opportunity. We ALSO gain the ability to chop THREE of those Forests, instead of just 1 of those Forests, which means that we'll be able to skip chopping 2 Forests elsewhere that might have a higher than 0 chance of regrowth, and for every chance higher than zero that our "worst two other Forests that we'd chop in ther place" have as regrowth chances, we'd also add those regrowth chances to our total of 6, which is already bigger than 5 anyway.

If you didn't understand that, please search for my other message about Forest chopping on that subject, and you'll get a slightly different explanation that might make more sense to you.

Now maybe you will start to see my reasoning for suggesting starting Worker 1 on the Grassland Hills Forest to the W + W + W of Delhi, as out of those 3 squares, it had the best chance of regrowth while losing 0 chances of growing elsewhere. After that, as per my initial (not tested yet) plan, we'd go 1NE to partially chop (just to get a free Worker turn) and then go SE to pre-chop that Forest for The Oracle's 3rd chop.

Why not the square to the west of the GCopper, you might ask? Well, although it would have 2 chances of regrowing, it also has a chance of growing itself. The square that intended that we actually chop, the Grassland Forest to the west of Delhi, would only have 1 chance of regrowing but is currently "stagnant," in that it can't help any other squares to regrow.

Although those chances sound equal, I was hoping that we'd improve our chances of the square 1N of 1a (1 west of the GCopper) or regrowing in the future if a Forest DID actually grow to its north, as that Forest growing to its north would then help to increase the chance of replacing the Forest to the south of it that originally helped to spawn it. Confused yet?

 

[unclethrill]

I have a question/proposal.

Is it possible to place our fogbusters in such a way that we could make a spawning barb city be where we want it near the wheat?
I know more now about fogbusting than I ever knew before but Dhoom and Mitchum know a whole lot more so do either of you think this is possible?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I'd like to see more updates to the PPP before playign ahead

Spoiler :

While Dhoomstriker works out the detailed worker actions for the next 45 turns, I'd like to propose the following for the Oracle chops...
If we agree on this part of the plan and what to do with the warriors, I think havr can get started, right?

I believe that some of my comments on Havr's turnset didn't get incorporated into it. It's fine if he disagrees with some of my points, but I'd like to see his reasons why. If things got missed or just misunderstood, i can answer questions if questions are asked.

Unclethrill has, for example, pointed out one thing (building a Worker in Silverado next) that I was pretty certain that I put in my PPP-suggestions message. I want to get going on the test game, not rehashing something that is already written, so I am not going to look at his new PPP in detail for now, expecting that he'll come up with questions or reasons for my suggestions (and others' suggestions) that he didn't incorporate and will hope that he will update the PPP accordingly for points that may have just been missed in the pure volume of information that got thrown his way.

FYI, I had 3 forests grow in my game between T76 and T135, but not in these two squares.

If nothing else, this fact just shows that we can get a real benefit from proper Forest management.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Planning the Barb City's Location

Spoiler :

I have a question/proposal.
Is it possible to place our fogbusters in such a way that we could make a spawning barb city be where we want it near the wheat?
I know more now about fogbusting than I ever knew before but Dhoom and Mitchum know a whole lot more so do either of you think this is possible?

Yes, it is possible.

For example, if we didn't have Warrior 1 on the Marble, BLubz reported that he saw a Barb City spawn to the west of it, on the Coast. The Barb City had nowhere else to go there (except for 1 square north of south of wherever it spawned on that north-western peninsula). In that exaaple, the Barb City either it wouldn't spawn (due to not being enough un-fog-busted land on our continent) or else it would spawn in a very-controlled location (one of those two squares on the north-western peninsula).


The trouble is that if all of the land to Zara is cramped already from another AI doing fog-busting there, we might not even have enough land to spawn a Barb City if we put a fog-buster to the east of the Wheat. We still might not have enough unfogged-land if we put too many fog-busters to the north of Delhi--we'd probably have to count the squares, but we're not certain what the NE of our continent or the area to the east of Zara looks like to get a 100% accurate picture.


What we can do for certain is put a fog-buster to the west of the Wheat such that a Barb City either:
a) Won't spawn near enough to our preferred location so as to prevent us from settling there due to the 2-square-radius rule
or
b) send the fog-buster far enough west such that if a Barb City spawns, it will be possible to spawn on X location or else east of there. X location might or might not be affected by Delhi's borders expanding.


So, based on that info, what's your proposal?

 

[Mitchum]

Mitchum seems to want to do:
Plan c) Build another Warrior in Silverado before our 3rd Worker. Use multiple Warriors to completely fog-bust the NE.

Not true. I didn't build more than the 7 warriors we have now (6 completed and 1 in queue in Silverado) until the barb spawned on silver and I needed another one to handle him when he entered our borders. After the warrior in Silverado, I propose that we build worker 3 right away.

By following Plan b) outlined at the start of this Message, we would have the following 5 free Warriors outside of our borders:
Warrior 1: far NW fog-buster
Warrior 2: far west fog-buster
Warrior 6: close NW fog-buster
Warrior 3 & Warrior 4: Teamed-up together to spawn-bust the area NE of Warrior 6, then pushing out a bit further east such that we "protect" the Wheat from Barb City spawning but don't over-fog-bust such that Zara will have a Barb-free path to the Wheat.

I'm okay with this plan.

Do you have any dates (I could turn numbers to be equivalent )for your Civic switches, or if not dates, any rough ideas? Such as: "I only used Slavery for Delhi's Library and Riverside's Monument, then switched out of it and didn't use it again," or "only switched back into Slavery in order to whip a Granary in Delhi," etc?

Also, you mentioned going in and out of Organized Religion. Was doing so only for a 5-turn-period of running No State Religion once Christianity is founded?

Here are the changes I made:

T80 (T82 inour game): Hinduism and Organized religion to help with the Oracle.
T93: Slavery to whip the library in Delhi and the monument in Riverdale.
T96: Confucianism once the temple was completed in Delhi. Could be sooner if we want to start the culture battle with Zara a few turns sooner while losing out on the OR bonus in Delhi on the temple only, not the library chops and whip.
T98: Peganism and Tribalism since Delhi is building a settler and Riverdale isn't getting enough hammers to get the OR bonus. This saved 2 gold per turn.
T101: Confucian missionary, after sitting 6 turns, spreads religion to Delhi so that Delhi and Stone share a religion (the same one Zara has, by the way)
T103 - Organized Religion since Delhi is building temple #2.
T108 - Back to Peganism to save 1 gold per turn while Delhi builds settler 4. This switch in and out of OR for 5 turns (T103 to T108) gives us +3H (if working 2 mines and copper) at the cost of 1 gold per turn. A fair tradeoff, me thinks.
T116 - No state religion the turn Stone is settled for a quick border pop.
T121 - Confucianism and Organized Religion for the Pyramids in Delhi and chop into Riverdale library.
T135 - Representation!!

Note that from T115 to T121, Delhi was building a granary without the OR bonus, but we needed to run no state religion so that Stone's borders could pop and Riverdale could keep putting cultureal pressure on Zara. We could switch to Christianity and OR instead, hoping that the free Christian missionary spreads his religion to Delhi on the first turn, but this let's up on our cultural battle with Zara, so I would rather not do it. However, this leads to a question of what to do with the Christian missionary? Maybe Delhi is the place since another temple may be needed for happiness way down the road.

 

[Mitchum]

By the way, I don't want to bother doing the testing if we're just going to go ahead and play the next turnset while I'm trying to get detailed test game results. So, please don't go ahead.

I sense that many members of the team are ready to get started and will lose interest even more if we don't do something. It sounds like you have the chops planned out for the Oracle, so would it be fair to say that your further optimization of forest chopping, cottage building and worker optimization will not affect what havr does in the next 14 turns? Or could your testing change the first 3 forests we chop?

Plus, some of my comments on Havr's turnset didn't get incorporated into it. It's fine if he disagrees with some of my points, but I'd like to see his reasons why. If things got missed or just misunderstood, i can answer questions if questions are asked.

I agree. I made a few comments to the the PPP this morning that were missed from before. I think the issue is that the some comments get lost or confused in the 100s of posts between the first PPP and now.

Havr, I know it is a lot to ask, but it is the responsibilty of the up player to capture all comments and either incorporate them into the PPP as suggested or list them as discussion points if you or anyone else has made an argument contrary to said comment. Discussion points will then be further discussed to reach consensus or else they will need to be voted on.

My guess is that no voting will be required for your PPP. The main thing we need to agree on is chopping order and warrior movement. I'll defer to Dhoomstriker on the optimal chopping order. Regarding the warriors, I vote to keep them in decent fog-busting locations within our borders until we can afford to send them out, and then only do so safely.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Suggestions for Havr's PPP

Spoiler :

I sense that many members of the team are ready to get started and will lose interest even more if we don't do something. It sounds like you have the chops planned out for the Oracle, so would it be fair to say that your further optimization of forest chopping, cottage building and worker optimization will not affect what havr does in the next 14 turns? Or could your testing change the first 3 forests we chop?

Okay, I will try to come off as being far less anal.

Forget the Test-game-until-Pyramids from me. It's taking too long for me to detail everything anyway. I'll be likely able to make the intial Worker actions work, the ones I'd been playing with in my most recent test games, anyway, thanks in big part to Mitchum's comments pretty much validating what I needed to know without having to go and figure it all out myself.


I'll just give my unit movement recommendations, which may or may not already be reflected in the current PPP (I haven't checked yet):
Warrior 3:

Spoiler :

Turn 76, 2100 BC: SW PH
Turn 77, 2075 BC: S GHFor (to improve Forest regrowth chances, to defend from the best square possible if the Barbs do rush us, and to wait until Warrior 4 can come and join him)
Turn 78, 2050 BC: Fortify. We'll see Barbs coming at our borders, and since we're within our cultural borders, there's no point in sadistally making Havr Skip this unit's turn until Warrior 4 arrives

Warrior 4 (and a bit about Warrior 3):

Spoiler :

Turn 76, 2100 BC: Heal him up. If you keep an eye out for Barb units, then use the Heal command. If you don't want to keep an eye out for Barb units, Skip his turn (Spacebar) each turn until he is fully healed
Turn 81, 1975 BC: The dude has healed up! Send him N PRiv (reduced chance of messing up Forests compared to gonig 1NW)
Turn 82, 1950 BC: Keep sending him NW from here, on those Forests
Turn 85, 1875 BC: Goes NW onto the GHills. Wake up Warrior 3 and bring him to the same square. From here on out, you're on your own, but I suggest that you explore mostly on Forests with the two Warriors on top of each other. Feel free to stop play if you have a question about how to react to Barbs. Your "target square" is on the GFor to the W + W + W of the Oasis aka NW + W of he PCow. However, how you get to this square and how many turns you want to "sneakily creep your way" in this direciton is up to you

EDIT: Let me clarify by saying that you don't even have to make it onto the "target square" within your turnset if you do not feel that it is safe to do so. There's no rush and this action can be post-poned into my turnset without difficulty.

Warrior 5:

Spoiler :

Goes straight to Riverside and Fortifies in it. You're free to Skip his turn each turn, if you'd like to have the screen focus you on Zara, so that you can keep a better eye on what Zara does

Warrior 6 (and a bit about Warriors 1 and 2):

Spoiler :

Turn 76, 2100 BC: NW GHFor
Turn 77, 2075 BC: Straight north from here onwards until you get on the Flood Plains square
Turn 81, 1975 BC: Start skipping (Spacebar) his turn. After about 3 turns of Skipping turns for Warriors 1 thorugh 3, we should know for sure that there aren't any more Barb units to the west of Warrior 3, so we could safely get away with Fortifying Warriors 1 and 2 on or just after Turn 84. That said, we shouldn't really risk fortifying Warrior 6, as we want to be prepared for any Barb unit that appears from the NE before Warriors 4 and 3 can get into position.

EDIT: Warrior 7:

Spoiler :

Moves to Delhi and Fortifies

Worker 1:

Spoiler :

After he's done Mining the Copper,
Turn 79, 2025 BC: Moves onto the GHForRiv to the W + W + W of Delhi
Turn 80, 2000 BC: Chops the Forest (doesn't Mine the mine)
Turn 84, 1900 BC: Complete the chop into The Oracle
Turn 85, 1875 BC: NE GFor: Chop and stop. Chop for 1 turn only.
Turn 89, 1775 BC: ***IMPORTANT*** Make sure that Worker 1 STOPS chopping on this turn

Spoiler :

you can chop on this turn but stop the Worker from performing the chopping action for next turn

, with 1 turn remaining to go on the Forest chop, so that we don't chop The Oracle out before Writing is ready
Turn 90, 1750 BC: SE GForRiv, Chop the GForRiv and STOP his chopping action, since I'll need to move him back NW to finish off the chop into The Oracle next turn

Worker 2:

Spoiler :

Turn 80, 2000 BC: Moves onto the GHForRiv to the NE + E of Delhi
Turn 81, 1975 BC: Chops the Forest (doesn't Mine the mine)
Turn 85, 1875 BC: Complete the chop into The Oracle
Turn 86, 1850 BC: Build a Mine on the current GHillsRiver square

 

[Dhoomstriker]

WARNING about Riverside!!!!!!!!!!111111111 111111!!!!!!!!!!!!111one one!!!!!!!!!!one 111!!!!!!!! NOTE: Applies to all players
On the turn after you build Riverside, or OFTEN AFTER ANY TIME THAT YOU OPEN THE SAVED GAME AND END YOUR TURN, you are likely to be given a prompt with 3 choices. Don't pick the first option, or else Zara will own Riverside.

Either the middle option or the bottom option will let us keep our city.

The same pop-up message may appear if you save the game and load it on your turnset. It should stop appearing after we get Confucianism expanding Riverside's borders, but that won't happen during your turnset.

Here is that pop-up message:
Sire, the ciizens of Riverside are rightfully asking to
join the Ethiopian Empire. Allowing them to do so
would make Zara Yaqob quite pleased with us.
Fine, do so at the next opportunity. <-- Gives away the city
Forget it, I'm the one in charge here! <-- Keeps our city
Wait, let me examine the city first <-- I always click on this option, as the pop-up message doesn't return after you exit the city view, so you will keep the city. It's also further away from the dangerous top option, reducing the chance of a mis-click. Call me paranoid if you'd like

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Warrior 3 and Warrior 4 Teaming Up

Spoiler :

Warrior 4 (and a bit about Warrior 3):

Spoiler :

Turn 76, 2100 BC: Heal him up. If you keep an eye out for Barb units, then use the Heal command. If you don't want to keep an eye out for Barb units, Skip his turn (Spacebar) each turn until he is fully healed
Turn 81, 1975 BC: The dude has healed up! Send him N PRiv (reduced chance of messing up Forests compared to gonig 1NW)
Turn 82, 1950 BC: Keep sending him NW from here, on those Forests
Turn 85, 1875 BC: Goes NW onto the GHills. Wake up Warrior 3 and bring him to the same square. From here on out, you're on your own, but I suggest that you explore mostly on Forests with the two Warriors on top of each other. Feel free to stop play if you have a question about how to react to Barbs. Your "target square" is on the GFor to the W + W + W of the Oasis aka NW + W of he PCow. However, how you get to this square and how many turns you want to "sneakily creep your way" in this direciton is up to you

EDIT: Let me clarify by saying that you don't even have to make it onto the "target square" within your turnset if you do not feel that it is safe to do so. There's no rush and this action can be post-poned into my turnset without difficulty.

In fact, if you find it unsafe to go to the target square, then pick your previous target square of the Plains Hills Forest that we want to settle on, just to the SW of the Wheat. Actually, that's probably the better target square, since we would risk a Barb City spawning if we don't get to the east soon enough with the second Warrior. So, I revise my previous comment and suggest that we instead make the "target square" the PHFor that you had mentioned. All that I ask is that you wait for both Warriors 3 and 4 to "join forces" before going there, for safety's sake.

The goal will be to have them stick together until you kill off 1 Barb Warrior. After that, once they're both at full health, then they can spread out a bit, with 1 of them going back to the west, feeling safer about the surrounding area after having killed off a Barb unit. Spreading out a bit may not happen until it gets to my turn.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, i think that havr has enough material to edit his PPP and play.

You're right to work the copper mine right after completed it, we'll generate alot of more hammers on the worker and on the the overflow.

I don't like those 4 turns @ 0 research. I prefer switch back and forth with 0 for 1 turn and 100 for 3 or 4 turns.

And surely set to 100 the turn before complete a research.

Many posts in the last 5 pages are about choices we'll have to take after havr's TS.
Surely useful to better define what we need in this one, but often not.

I think we can read better the posts related to future TSs if there's something in the title about this.

It's really hard to keep track of everything.

Let's roll it.

Note: please, post large SS in spoilers, or we must scroll in horizontal, often very annoying.

 

[Mitchum]

This looks good to me, with one minor change:

Warrior 6 (and a bit about Warriors 1 and 2):

Spoiler :

Turn 76, 2100 BC: NW GHFor
Turn 77, 2075 BC: Straight north from here onwards until you get on the Flood Plains square

Spoiler :

Once you're S-S of the flood plains (S-SW of the stone), be careful. On this square (S-S of flood plains), he is spawn busting the holes on the peninsula, so leaving him here for a few turns won't hurt. The barb is spawn busing north for us, so no NEW barbs should spawn up there.

However, the barb warrior is somewhere in that area north of our capital. I suggest hitting the space bar until you know where he is and only move N of the floodplains (NW of stone) once you know it's safe. There's no hurry.

Note: I think Dhoomstriker is suggesting warrior 6's final spawn busting tile is on the floodplains (W of stone). However, 1 tile N of that is slightly better since it spawn busts the tile NW of the western incense.


SO, assuming what Dhoomstriker said with this minor change looks fine for everyone, I think havr can update his PPP acordingly and play his turn set after a short "review" period to make sure the new PPP captures everything correctly.

 

[Mitchum]

I don't like those 4 turns @ 0 research. I prefer switch back and forth with 0 for 1 turn and 100 for 3 or 4 turns.

I prefer this too, but it's more MM for the up player. I leave this to havr to decide. The good thing about changing it more often as you suggest is that it forces the player to look at the research slider every turn before moving on to the next. This minimizes the chance for error if you get in the habit of looking at the slider every turn.

Many posts in the last 5 pages are about choices we'll have to take after havr's TS.
Surely useful to better define what we need in this one, but often not.

The reason that it happened this way is that we're planning the next 5 turn sets with each one being based on the previous one. Once we have a general plan (which I think we do), then it is easier to comment on the current turnset. The next 5 turn sets should go much more quickly unless something drastic happens in the game or if someone comes up with a brilliant idea which would require more testing.

Note: please, post large SS in spoilers, or we must scroll in horizontal, often very annoying.

I was the offending party. Dhoomstriker asked for bigger images, so I complied. Now I'm being asked to hide them... Actually, what both of you said makes sense so I've updated my two offending posts. Thanks.


Pyramids
If we wait for math to preserve forests when chopping the Pyramids, we'll lose about 12 turns (300 years) getting the Pyramids around 625 BC (T135) while saving 3 or 4 forests (I never got confirmation from havr or unclethrill on how many they chopped). Is everyone okay with this level of risk? It seems to be before havr's test dates, but there is a chance that they could be built during this 300-year span...

BTW, those forests are needed for health and potential future chops (i.e. Hanging Gardens for more GE points), so we need to use the sparingly and appropriately.

 

[BLubmuz]

Pyramids
If we wait for math to preserve forests when chopping the Pyramids, we'll lose about 12 turns (300 years) getting the Pyramids around 625 BC (T135) while saving 3 or 4 forests (I never got confirmation from havr or unclethrill on how many they chopped). Is everyone okay with this level of risk? It seems to be before havr's test dates, but there is a chance that they could be built during this 300-year span...

BTW, those forests are needed for health and potential future chops (i.e. Hanging Gardens for more GE points), so we need to use the sparingly and appropriately.

First, thanks for all your efforts. And not to you only. All of us (me and Irgy less, to be honest) are putting great effort to squeeze the best out of this game.
I'm sorry i can't contribute much, but a friend of mine asked me to complete a site for him (and finally he gave me the material) before he comes back in Rwanda. You know, it's not down on the corner. He's a friend and he pays, too.


Back on topic, Pyramids (again not a great help for havr's TS, anyway...):
If we have not many problems of happiness and probably not so many specialists, it's not a great loss. 3-4 forests are not peanuts and, as you say, we can use them later.

I think that 635 BC is a safe, very safe date even on Emperor in BTS.

And a good way to avoid happiness problems is build settlers and workers.

 

[unclethrill]

In one of my tests, with me not even making a run on the 'Mids, they went on T141. With the proposal from Mitchum, that leaves only 6 turns of room on that date. That seems a bit tight for me. I'm not saying we don't follow his proposal but we need to be aware that T135 is close to the best date for the AI in my tests. Also the longer we delay the mids, the longer we don't get the benefit from Representation.

 

[BLubmuz]

In one of my tests, with me not even making a run on the 'Mids, they went on T141. With the proposal from Mitchum, that leaves only 6 turns of room on that date. That seems a bit tight for me. I'm not saying we don't follow his proposal but we need to be aware that T135 is close to the best date for the AI in my tests. Also the longer we delay the mids, the longer we don't get the benefit from Representation.

I'm still convinced that the Stone city is better placed 1 NE of stone and that we can avoid the fish/incense city.
If we use this plan, we can gain from the chops more than with math.
And we can also skip math for Alpha, so we can back fill a lot of needed techs, like AH, fishing, sailing, maybe even math itself, IW...

Researching math for the Pyramids with the stone at hand and so many techs needed seems... strange at least.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

PPP

Spoiler :

OK, i think that havr has enough material to edit his PPP

Agreed.

and play.

After we've had a chance to look over the revised PPP and point out anything that might help him out. Don't worry; it shouldn't be new info at this point, just stuff that might have gotten missed or lost in translation.

Keeping Track of the Details Relevant to the Correct Turnset (NOT JUST the Current Turnset)

Spoiler :

It's really hard to keep track of everything.

That's the job of the UP player for the relevant Turnset, though, isn't it? The more that a PPP is kept up-to-date over time, the less info will have to be collected and sorted through. Whether it's kept up-to-date offline or online, this info needs to be gathered at some point.

Admitedly, this turnset has been a hard one to keep track of all of the details, as a lot of strategies were decided here, instead of during a previous turnset.

However, things get longer and longer the more that people are asked to repeat things. It's a monser that just grows, and when people's comments aren't acknowledged, they repeat their points as well. So, in the interest of working on this second problem, I've been trying to respond to most messages, so that people can feel that they've been listened to, and that their feedback was appreciated, valued, and worthwhile.

THAT SAID, if you see something that's coming up that might happen in your next turnset, keep it in mind, or write it down somewhere. That way, we won't have to keep repeating points over and over when it's someone else's turnset. As a result of putting in this small effort, the thread will have a lot less volume of text in it. Isn't that a goal which we all want to achieve?

Propose exact dates for Altering the Science Rate, please

Spoiler :

I don't like those 4 turns @ 0 research. I prefer switch back and forth with 0 for 1 turn and 100 for 3 or 4 turns.

Perhaps you can make it easier on Havr and suggest the exact turns that he should switch tech rates?

Because I will tell you that it is very hard as the UP player to judge exaclty when to switch without planning out the turns that these rates need to be switched on.

It's easy enough to figure out ahead of time with a short test game. If this point means enough to you, you will do so. If it doesn't mean enough to you, then you will likely let this point slide.

Also, if you have a reason that might make us alter our tech path, why not discuss it now? If we aren't altering our tech path, then won't he have already figured out the ideal way of changing the tech rates appropriately? Why make him change it back and forth 6 or 8 times when a test game has already proven the exact amount that he needs and thus can reduce the chance of making a mistake? Switching back and forth repeatedly is just likely to create a mistake more than prevent one, in my eyes.

Remembering to switch Delhi's citizens to work the Copper on the turn that it is Mined (Turn 78, 2050 BC, for Havr's reference)

Spoiler :

You're right to work the copper mine right after completed it, we'll generate alot of more hammers on the worker and on the the overflow.

If we work the Copper as soon as it is complete, then yes, we will get more Hammers. We are supposed to do so, but it is easy to forget to do if this switch isn't detailed in the PPP's date listing.

Another solution is to turn on the City Governor and to set the Emphasize Food button. I checked and doing so will automatically switch the GRiv Irr to the GCopper at the right time in Havr's turnset. Doing so will also automatically switch the PHRiv Mine to the GRiv Irr at the right time in Havr's turnset. So, he could equally just set these two icons on and forget about micromanaging Delhi's worked squares for this turnset. Other turnsets may not have the same results.

This Turnset vs other Turnsets

Spoiler :

Many posts in the last 5 pages are about choices we'll have to take after havr's TS.
Surely useful to better define what we need in this one, but often not.

I have tried my best to gather and organize info related to this turnset into a few messages. Has this effort be helpful?

Titling Your Topics

Spoiler :

I think we can read better the posts related to future TSs if there's something in the title about this.

I think that I've also been doing this point... is there any suggestion that you have for me to make things better, besides the screenshot suggestion, which I'll address below?

Screenshots

Spoiler :

Note: please, post large SS in spoilers, or we must scroll in horizontal, often very annoying.

Kindly share your screen size with the rest of us. What kind of a resolution do you work with?

I use a resolution of 1680 x 1050 pixels, so I don't experience horizontal scrolling issues. If a screenshot is the size of an entire Civ screen, I'll spoiler it. But, I wouldn't mind hearing a pixel-sized value, so that I can adjust accordingly. For example, if you run you resolution at 800 x 600 pixels, then I will know that any picture with a width greater than, say, 650 pixels (a bit smaller than 800 pixels, allowing for the borders of messages on the page, etc) should be spoilered.

If we can get the smallest resolution on our team known, then we can set a reasonable guideline. Sound fair?

 

[havr]

NOTE: the edit is for inserting Dhoom's answer in #1261

First of all, I move to change the team's name from "Fifth Element" to "OCD".

Anyway, I did my best to figure everything out from the message. It is really hard, with tons of messages and endless optimizations.

Can I ask, again, that we will be a little less tedious (aka anal) in our optimizations?

Please say "Aye" if you agree to play it (after Dhoom answered the questions). If all say "Aye" I will play it tomorrow morning (about 8 hours). Good?

SEE TURN BY TURN DETAIL BELOW.

Civics & Research
=================
Research - 100% at till PH @ T79, 0% on T79, T80, T81, T82, %100 from T83 till end. This will give writing at T92 and let us research 100% at T92.
(Mitchun - We are settling Riverdale right away because of Roads. I prefer it this way to avoid forgeting).
(BLubmuz - I know you dont like this, but I found that when I switch between 0% and 100% I tend to forget. This way I am sure to do it right.)
Civics + Religion - switch to Hinduism + OR once Delhi starts building Oracle

Units
=====
According to Dhoom's plan at #1249.

Warrior 3:
Turn 76, 2100 BC: SW PH
Turn 77, 2075 BC: S GHFor (to improve Forest regrowth chances, to defend from the best square possible if the Barbs do rush us, and to wait until Warrior 4 can come and join him)
Turn 78, 2050 BC: Fortify.

Warrior 4:
Turn 76, 2100 BC: Heal him up. If you keep an eye out for Barb units, then use the Heal command. If you don't want to keep an eye out for Barb units, Skip his turn (Spacebar) each turn

until he is fully healed
Turn 81, 1975 BC: The dude has healed up! Send him N PRiv (reduced chance of messing up Forests compared to gonig 1NW)
Turn 82, 1950 BC: Keep sending him NW from here, on those Forests
Turn 85, 1875 BC: Goes NW onto the GHills. Wake up Warrior 3 and bring him to the same square. Explore mostly on Forests with the two Warriors on top of each other. Stop play if have a

question about how to react to Barbs. Your "target square" is on the GFor to the W + W + W of the Oasis aka NW + W of he PCow. However, how you get to this square and how many turns you

want to "sneakily creep your way" in this direction.

Warrior 6:
Turn 76, 2100 BC: NW GHFor
Turn 77, 2075 BC: Straight north from here onwards until you get on the Flood Plains square
Turn 81, 1975 BC: Start skipping (Spacebar) his turn. After about 3 turns of Skipping turns for Warriors 1 thorugh 3, we should know for sure that there aren't any more Barb units to the

west of Warrior 3, so we could safely get away with Fortifying Warriors 1 and 2 on or just after Turn 84. That said, we shouldn't really risk fortifying Warrior 6, as we want to be

prepared for any Barb unit that appears from the NE before Warriors 4 and 3 can get into position.

Warrior 7:
Moves to Delhi and Fortifies

Worker 1:
After he's done Mining the Copper,
Turn 79, 2025 BC: Moves onto the GHForRiv to the W + W + W of Delhi
Turn 80, 2000 BC: Chops the Forest (doesn't Mine the mine)
Turn 84, 1900 BC: Complete the chop into The Oracle
Turn 85, 1875 BC: NE GFor: Chop and stop. Chop for 1 turn only.
Turn 86, 1850 BC: SE GFor (1W of Delhi), Chops the Forest (but not chopped to completeion, see Turn 89)
Turn 89, 1775 BC: ***IMPORTANT*** Make sure that Worker 1 STOPS chopping on this turn

Worker 2:
Turn 80, 2000 BC: Moves onto the GHForRiv to the NE + E of Delhi
Turn 81, 1975 BC: Chops the Forest (doesn't Mine the mine)
Turn 85, 1875 BC: Complete the chop into The Oracle
Turn 86, 1850 BC: Build a Mine on the current GHillsRiver square

Cities -
========
Delhi -
Work tiles - will work copper only once pop is 5. Till then work stays the same.
Build - Finish worker -> Oracle
(will need to chop 3 forest. 1 will be choped @ T88, one @ T89 and finally one @ T91).

Silverado -
No change to work tiles.
Finish warrior, build worker.

Riverdale -
Founding - Zara has roads, settler immediatly, 1W of Zara's cows. Will still give Writing at T92.
Important - once founded must work River Grass for extra +1 comm otherwise
Build - Monument.

TURN BY TURN (execpt unit movement as above).
============

T76 - Research @ 100%, start moving settler towards Riverdale location, North warrior 1N, Warrior 5 towards riverdale.
T77 - Nothing much.
T78 - Settle Riverdale, make sure it works the grassland river.
T79 - PH->Writing, Research @ 0%, Worker 1 finishes copper-mine, start choping. Delhi works copper instead of mine.
T80 - Civics: Hindu+OR, Delhi: Worker->Oracle, Silverado: Warrior->Worker
T81 - nothing much
T82 - nothing much
T83 - Research @ 100%, Delhi grows, make sure it now works mine too.
T84 - nothing much.
T85 - nothing much.
T86 - nothing much.
T87 - nothing much.
T88 - Delhi grows: work Plains Forest, nothing much
T89 - nothing much.
T90 - nothing much

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Warrior 6 Updated

Spoiler :

This looks good to me, with one minor change:

Once you're S-S of the flood plains (S-SW of the stone), be careful. On this square (S-S of flood plains), he is spawn busting the holes on the peninsula, so leaving him here for a few turns won't hurt. The barb is spawn busing north for us, so no NEW barbs should spawn up there.

That's fine and Havr can judge how safe he thinks it will be with moving directly or "creeping" into position. With Zara's Scout in the neighbourhood, now's an ideal time to move, in my eyes, before the Scout runs away and we lose his extra fog-busting before we get into position on the Flood Plains square.

Note: I think Dhoomstriker is suggesting warrior 6's final spawn busting tile is on the floodplains (W of stone). However, 1 tile N of that is slightly better since it spawn busts the tile NW of the western incense.

I am suggesting leaving Warrior 6 on the Flood Plains square because it will give us a bit more leeway to spot a Barb unit approaching from the NE. A Barb unit would have to come around the Peak, thus we'd see him 2 turns in advance of him appearing next to us, instead of him possibly appearing next to us.

Since we do not have a Forest square to stand on, I'd rather not push us any further north than the Flood Plain square. Warriors 3 and 4 can handle that northern fog-busting once they are in place, while the Barb Warrior will do the job for them until then.

In the meantime, if we go 1N of the Flood Plains square, we'll simply tempt the Barb Warrior to come after us. The Peak is a natural Barbarian "invisible fence" that should keep him to the north. If we go "poking around that invisible fence," then expect to get electricuted.