SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[havr]

OK, BL, Irgy, UT gave explicit "Aye"s.
Mitch said "Aye" after changes by Dhoom.
Dhoom suggested changes, didn't say "Aye", but I am assuming an implicit "Aye" there.

So... I incorporated Dhoom's changes and I am going to play real soon.
For the record, the final PPP is in the spoiler.

Spoiler :

Civics & Research
=================
Research - 100% at till PH @ T79, 0% on T79, T80, T81, T82, %100 from T83 till end. This will give writing at T92 and let us research 100% at T92.
(Mitchun - We are settling Riverdale right away because of Roads. I prefer it this way to avoid forgeting).
(BLubmuz - I know you dont like this, but I found that when I switch between 0% and 100% I tend to forget. This way I am sure to do it right.)
Civics + Religion - switch to Hinduism + OR once Delhi starts building Oracle

Units
=====
According to Dhoom's plan at #1249.

Warrior 3:
Turn 76, 2100 BC: SW PH
Turn 77, 2075 BC: S GHFor (to improve Forest regrowth chances, to defend from the best square possible if the Barbs do rush us, and to wait until Warrior 4 can come and join him)
Turn 78, 2050 BC: Fortify.

Warrior 4:
Turn 76, 2100 BC: Heal him up. If you keep an eye out for Barb units, then use the Heal command. If you don't want to keep an eye out for Barb units, Skip his turn (Spacebar) each turn until he is fully healed
Turn 81, 1975 BC: The dude has healed up! Send him N PRiv (reduced chance of messing up Forests compared to gonig 1NW)
Turn 82, 1950 BC: Keep sending him NW from here, on those Forests
Turn 85, 1875 BC: Goes NW onto the GHills. Wake up Warrior 3 and bring him to the same square.
Explore mostly on Forests with the two Warriors on top of each other.
Stop play if have a question about how to react to Barbs.
Your "target square" is on the PHFor to the N + N of the PCow, aka to the NW of the Oasis.
However, the details of how you get to this square and how many turns you want to "sneakily creep your way" in this direction are completely left up to you, based on where you last saw the Barb units in the area.

Warrior 6:
Turn 76, 2100 BC: NW GHFor
Turn 77, 2075 BC: Straight north from here onwards until you get on the Flood Plains square, Feel free to Skip your turn as many times as you need to do so along the way.
If Zara's Scout is nearby, you shouldn't need to Skip your turn at all.
Turn 81, 1975 BC (or on whatever turn you finally arrive here): Start skipping (Spacebar) his turn. After about 3 turns of Skipping turns for Warriors 1 thorugh 3, we should know for sure that there aren't any more Barb units to the

west of Warrior 3, so we could safely get away with Fortifying Warriors 1 and 2 on or just after Turn 84. That said, we shouldn't really risk fortifying Warrior 6, as we want to be

prepared for any Barb unit that appears from the NE before Warriors 4 and 3 can get into position.

Warrior 7:
Moves to Delhi and Fortifies

Worker 1:
After he's done Mining the Copper,
Turn 79, 2025 BC: Moves onto the GHForRiv to the W + W + W of Delhi
Turn 80, 2000 BC: Chops the Forest (doesn't Mine the mine)
Turn 84, 1900 BC: Complete the chop into The Oracle
Turn 85, 1875 BC: NE GFor: Chop and stop. Chop for 1 turn only.
Turn 86, 1850 BC: SE GFor (1W of Delhi), Chops the Forest (but not chopped to completeion, see Turn 89)
Turn 89, 1775 BC: ***IMPORTANT*** Make sure that Worker 1 STOPS chopping on this turn
Turn 90, 1750 BC: SE GForRiv (1S of Delhi), Chop the Forest

Worker 2:
Turn 80, 2000 BC: Moves onto the GHForRiv to the NE + E of Delhi
Turn 81, 1975 BC: Chops the Forest (doesn't Mine the mine)
Turn 85, 1875 BC: Complete the chop into The Oracle
Turn 86, 1850 BC: Build a Mine on the current GHillsRiver square

Cities -
========
Delhi -
Work tiles - Turn 76, 2100 BC: 2 Corn, GRiv Irr, PHRiv Mine (no change)
Turn 78, 2050 BC: Switch to GRiv Irr to GCopper, so that you are working: 2 Corn, GCopper, PHRiv Mine
Turn 80, 2000 BC: Switch PHRiv Mine to GRiv Irr, so that you are working: 2 Corn, GCopper, GRiv Irr
Turn 82, 1950 BC: Delhi should be SIZE 5. Ensure that you are working: 2 Corn, GCopper, GRiv Irr, PHRiv Mine
Build - Finish worker -> Oracle
(will need to chop 3 forest. 1 will be choped @ T88, one @ T89 and finally one @ T91).

Silverado -
No change to work tiles.
Finish warrior, build worker.

Riverdale -
Founding - Zara has roads, settler immediatly, 1W of Zara's cows. Will still give Writing at T92.
Important - once founded must work River Grass for extra +1 comm otherwise
Also Important - on the turn after Riverside is founded, on Turn 79, 2025 BC, the game may ask you: "Sire, the ciizens of Riverside are rightfully asking to join the Ethiopian Empire..."
Please choose the third option in the list, called "Wait, let me examine the city first." The pop-up message will be gone when you exit the City's screen
Build - Monument.

TURN BY TURN (execpt unit movement as above).
============

T76 - Research @ 100%, start moving settler towards Riverdale location, North warrior 1N, Warrior 5 towards riverdale.
T77 - Nothing much.
T78 - Settle Riverdale, make sure it works the grassland river. Worker 1 is about to finish copper-mine, start choping. Delhi works copper instead of *mine*.
T79 - PH->Writing, Research @ 0%,
T80 - Delhi: Worker->Oracle, Silverado: Warrior->Worker, Civics: Hindu+OR, Delhi: Switch PHRiv Mine to GRiv Irr, so that you are working: 2 Corn, GCopper, GRiv Irr
T81 - nothing much
T82 - Delhi should be SIZE 5. Ensure that you are working: 2 Corn, GCopper, GRiv Irr, PHRiv Mine
T83 - Research @ 100%, Delhi grows, make sure it now works mine too.
T84 - nothing much.
T85 - nothing much.
T86 - nothing much.
T87 - nothing much.
T88 - Delhi grows: work Plains Forest, nothing much
T89 - nothing much.
T90 - nothing much

 

[havr]

OK, nearly done, BUT something came up on T88 and we need to decide.

On T87 I moved, according to the plan, War3 and War4 to NW of cows. To the NE a barb appeared. He attacked and we lost poor warrior 4 . The barb is at 0.1 so I can safely kill him. DO WE WANT TO KILL HIM?

 

[havr]

Let me add a little bit of maybe important info:
Zara's scout is ridiculously wondering around in circles in our west, helping us spawn-bust. MAYBE what happens is that he tries to go back east but every time sees the Barb and turns around. SO if we keep the barb alive we get three things:

1) Zara's scout stays boxed, busting for us.
2) Zara's exploration is hampered because his scout is stuck.
3) The barb spawn-busts the north.

 

[BLubmuz]

Let me add a little bit of maybe important info:
Zara's scout is ridiculously wondering around in circles in our west, helping us spawn-bust. MAYBE what happens is that he tries to go back east but every time sees the Barb and turns around. SO if we keep the barb alive we get three things:

1) Zara's scout stays boxed, busting for us.
2) Zara's exploration is hampered because his scout is stuck.
3) The barb spawn-busts the north.

listening my gutt, i'd say KILL him.
Being afraid from Dhoom's novels about that, i just say move the surviving warrior as we planned, then the RNG will decide for us

just finish this, so we can go ahead.

This is the demonstration of what i said in my last post. Can be summarized in "the best plans of men and mice..."

 

[havr]

Being afraid from Dhoom's novels about that, i just say move the surviving warrior as we planned, then the RNG will decide for us

The plan is to move him on the square the barb is on. So we cannot leave it to randomness...

Anyway, I have to go now... will be able to finish it in about 4 hours. As Dhoom doesn't seem to sleep much (I have no idea what timezone he is in) there will probably be novels by then

 

[BLubmuz]

The plan is to move him on the square the barb is on. So we cannot leave it to randomness...

Anyway, I have to go now... will be able to finish it in about 4 hours. As Dhoom doesn't seem to sleep much (I have no idea what timezone he is in) there will probably be novels by then

Dhoom is GMT -5, so he's still asleep now.

anyway...

Spoiler :

But little Mouse, you are not alone,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best laid schemes of mice and men
Go often askew,
And leave us nothing but grief and pain,
For promised joy!

 

[Irgy]

I'd be inclined to kill it before it gets a promotion, heals itself, and causes us no end of trouble. My guess is that we would then just have 1 warrior in riverdale instead of two for a while, until such time as we can afford to sneak an extra warrior into the long and detailed build plans we have? Not sure what other changes to the warrior moves this would entail, but personally I would assume you could work it out well enough yourself.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

As requested, here is my novella. Feel free to skip straight to the Summary, as it tells you all that you need to know.

Okay, so let's examine the assumptions that I am making, based on the info that you gave to us:

Assumptions

Spoiler :

1. Warrior 6 is in fog-busting position in the west on the Flood Plains square right now. Right?
2. It sounds like that Barb Warrior to the west of the PHFor square is not the Barb unit that attacked. Right? If right, there would thus still be a Barb Warrior to the west.
3. You didn't mention anything about Zara having settled yet, so I am going to assume that he still has one City. Right?

Implications of those Assumptions

Spoiler :

If those assumptions are true, then the following things can be implied:
1. If we move Warrior 3 onto the PHFor square, due to Warrior 6 being in the correct place on the Flood Plains square, there will only be room for 1 Barb unit to exist to the west of the PHFor.
2. Due to the Barb Warrior that you are fighting having likely been a Barb unit that came from the east, not from the west, there is still a Barb unit to the west and it will still be a "safe to have" Barb Warrior.
[QUOTE;havr]Zara's scout is ridiculously wondering around in circles in our west, helping us spawn-bust. MAYBE what happens is that he tries to go back east but every time sees the Barb and turns around.[/QUOTE]
3. Even if, unfortunately, the Barb Warrior that we see is our western Barb Warrior, then it is already too late for fog-busting the west of the PHFor square--a different Barb unit will spawn there, probably a Barb Archer. Whether you kill this Barb unit or not, he's already moved so far east out of position than another Barb unti will take his place in the west. So, if he is the western Barb unit, then he has already moved far enough to the east to no longer be validly considered to be a "western" dude and thus keeping him alive for the purpose of having him fog-bust the west won't work.
4. In all likelihood, there still exists a Barb Warrior to the west of Warrior 3, who will continue to wander back and forth in the west. Even if he's gone, then a Barb Archer will likely spawn and then perform the same useless walking back and forth in the west.
5. Whether the western Barb unit is still a Barb Warrior who you haven't fought or whether he is now to the east and a new Barb unit will spawn in the west, we can count on there being a Barb unit in the west either now or else spawning in the next turn or two. Therefore, we can claim that a western Barb unit will continue to "block" Zara's Scout, which, as you said, is a good thing, as it is probably the reason why Zara has been delaying settling and may continue to delay settling, as an AI's scout can often even beat Barb Warriors and Barb Archers due to the AIs' bonuses against Barbs, so that's one way for them to "clear a path" to a new City location.


THEREFORE...
If my first assumptions is true, then all of the following are concerns that we do not need to really worry about:

1) Zara's scout stays boxed, busting for us.
2) Zara's exploration is hampered because his scout is stuck.
3) The barb spawn-busts the north.

We actually don't really even care THAT much about whether assumptions 2 and 3 are true, because the implications of the assumptions shows that assumption 2 can be mitigated by a new Barb unit that will spawn in the west, while assumption 3 doesn't really affect Zara getting his Scout to the Wheat area and stealing City 5's location form us. Basically, the three points that you made should all come true if assumption 1 is true.

The Decision Factors

Spoiler :

1. People seem to want to prevent a Barb City from appearing near the Wheat. If we guard the PHFor square, the Barbs won't spawn a City that will mess up our settling of the Wheat.
2. Zara may be more inclined to settle near the Wheat with it being partially fog-busted.
3. Point 2 is partially mitigated by the fact that we are not going to fog-bust the area to the west of the PHFor, so Zara's Scout should stay trapped and thus it will be hard for him to "know" tha the Wheat area is relatively safer.
4. Point 2 is also partially mitigated by the fact that we are not going to fog-bust the area to the east of the PHFor, so Zara can't immediately stroll a Settler to the Wheat area--there should still be one wandering Barb unit to the east of the PHFor that Zara will be afraid of and will have to deal with before he can settle near the Wheat.

The Facts

Spoiler :

1.

The barb is at 0.1 so I can safely kill him.

We will never have a better opportunity in the game. Fights don't get any easier than that.
2. Even if we lose the fight, the Barbs are not yet scheduled to rush our borders. We won't see that happening until my turnset at the ealiest, so it won't be your problem (haha, yeah, "pass the buck" around, aka pass the problem to someone else). So, we'll be safe even if we lose.
3. By winning the fight, we should still be at full health or close to it, on one of the best-defensible positions possible: a PHFor square.
4. Barb People unit don't tend to "cram together" except when they are "rushing all known Civilization's borders." You will see this behaviour more from Barb Animals but less from the Barb People units, so there's a low statistical chance of us having to fight another Barb in a defencive fight on our next turn. Even if we do fight have a, see Fact 3, which says that we'll have about a good chance of winning as we possibly can have after having attacked a Barb unit.
5. By moving onto the PHFor, we'll be fog-busting the area that the wounded Barb Warrior was fog-busting, so we really shouldn't have to worry about a new Barb unit spawning in its place. We're taking its place, by performing the fog-busting duty that it currently has.

Conclusions

Spoiler :

1. Fighting the Barb unit will not disrupt our plans of having the Barbs block Zara or of having the Barb Warrior units spawn-bust for us--both things will still happen.
2. The odds of fighting won't even be better: an almost guaranteed win that puts us on an extremely defensible square. Rarely can you get such a combination--either the fight is easy on flatland and then you will be vulnerable on the next turn, or the fight is on defensible territory, and you'll almost be dead after winning. Here, we get the best of both worlds.
3. Fighting the battle puts us exactly in the direction that we want to go.
4. We planned for this situation by bringing 2 Warriors with us. Our plan tells us to fight under these circumstances. I can see no evidence that you presented which would lead us to want to change our plans in this regard.

Summary

Spoiler :

If the first assumption is true, then we are good to go. Fight, fight, fight! Capture "the flag" (our target square)! Defend "the flag" (the Hill) will glory and honour! Avenge our dear brothers in arms and may their memory forever live on in our hearts and our actions!

If the first assumption is false, then please give us a screenshot of the area that includes the PHFor and the area to the west and south of it, so we can see where you've got Warrior 6 and why he is out of position (such as because he had to run away from a Barb unit to the north of him). That's about the only thing that would potentially change the decision in my mind.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Planning in Contingency Plans makes for Fun Play

Spoiler :

But little Mouse, you are not alone,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best laid schemes of mice and men
Go often askew,
And leave us nothing but grief and pain,
For promised joy!

There's a cute poem!

However, the highlighted portion doesn't really apply to us. We planned for this very possiblity by doubling-up the Warriors. Civ fights are random, so if you are far enough into the game that you can bring "backup units," you will put yourself in a great position.

Earlier on in the game, we weren't able to bring any backup units, but at this stage and whenever we go to war, we will plan for this battle randomness and thus will bring extra firepower with us, making the game MORE FUN!

Won't it be fun to avenge our Warrior's death? Isn't it great that we'll still capture our "flag" (the target square) as part of the bargain? It all sounds too good to be true!

And even if we lose the second fight, then we'll just have an uber-promoted Barb unit wandering the NE that can keep Zara's Settler at bay. It's hard to complain about the situation, really.

 

[havr]

OK, as warrior 6 was in position I followed Dhoom's suggestion and killed the Barb. I uploaded the game at the submission form.

Here is a quick summary of my TS:

Nothing much happened till T88:
Riverdale was settled in T78.
PH came at T79 and started Writing. It will arrive at T92 as planned.
From turn 80 we are strong belivers of Hinduisim and running OR.
Warrior 6 moved into position in T84.

On T88 War3 and War4 moved and saw a Barb ambush on them. War4 died an heroic death. War3 avenged his death only to discover another Barb to the NW!
Luckily, that barb went SW in the general direction of the Ethiopians.
See screenshot for current position in turn 90.

Apart from that:
*) Zara got sailing in T89 and will trade cows and *calm* (--> he has a coastal capital with calm).
*) Zara is now researching meditation.
*) Something is wrong with Zara. He still hasn't founded another city! We need to thing what he is upto (if anything).
*) We need a single chop to finish Oracle. Just waiting for Writing in 2 turns.
*) No one has founded Conf. yet. Buddhisim influence is 18%... whatever exactly that means.

Session log:

Turn 74, 2150 BC: Zara Yaqob adopts Slavery!

Turn 78, 2050 BC: Riverdale has been founded.
Turn 78, 2050 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!

Turn 80, 2000 BC: Gandhi converts to Hinduism!
Turn 80, 2000 BC: Gandhi adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 87, 1825 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Gandhi's Warrior 4 (Silverado) (3.00)
Turn 87, 1825 BC: Combat Odds: 9.9%
Turn 87, 1825 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 87, 1825 BC: Gandhi's Warrior 4 (Silverado) is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 87, 1825 BC: Gandhi's Warrior 4 (Silverado) is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 87, 1825 BC: Gandhi's Warrior 4 (Silverado) is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 87, 1825 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 87, 1825 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 87, 1825 BC: Gandhi's Warrior 4 (Silverado) is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 87, 1825 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 87, 1825 BC: Gandhi's Warrior 4 (Silverado) is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 87, 1825 BC: Gandhi's Warrior 4 (Silverado) is hit for 16 (4/100HP)
Turn 87, 1825 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 87, 1825 BC: Gandhi's Warrior 4 (Silverado) is hit for 16 (0/100HP)
Turn 87, 1825 BC: Barbarian's Warrior has defeated Gandhi's Warrior 4 (Silverado)!

Turn 88, 1800 BC: Gandhi's Warrior 3 (Delhi) (2.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (0.14)
Turn 88, 1800 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 88, 1800 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 88, 1800 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 88, 1800 BC: Gandhi's Warrior 3 (Delhi) has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 88, 1800 BC: Your Warrior 3 (Delhi) has destroyed a Warrior!

Turn 89, 1775 BC: Zara Yaqob will trade Clam, Cow

 

[havr]

Looked at the attached graph.
Quite amazing ah? We are doing 14.3 posts per turn. More than twice than any other team, and more then three times than most of the other teams.

 

[Mitchum]

Great turn set, havr!!! Everything went according to plan. I hate losing battles when we expect to win 90% of the time, but it happens and our plans took this into account. Just think, now our expenses will be less without the burden of an extra unit!! You just shaved at least a turn off our Pyramids date!!!

I'll post an updated test save shortly.

I can't wait to see what Dhoomstrikers PPP looks like. Is there a limit to the number of characters in a single post???

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Turnset Summary Comments
Excellent work for your entire turnset, including the previous turns that you played! Nice job, Havr!

Barbs and Zara

Spoiler :

OK, as warrior 6 was in position I followed Dhoom's suggestion and killed the Barb...
On T88 War3 and War4 moved and saw a Barb ambush on them. War4 died an heroic death. War3 avenged his death only to discover another Barb to the NW!
Luckily, that barb went SW in the general direction of the Ethiopians.
See screenshot for current position in turn 90.

Wonderful! We couldn't have hoped for better! I was afraid that we *might* have killed off the only Barb unit to the east of the PHFor, but tha't's not the case. So, Zara's Scout can be blocked in the west while his Settler can be blocked in the east.

Checkmate, sucker!

 

[Mitchum]

Here is the test save.

By the way, while I was playing forward, a barb spear appeared!!! We may need an axeman around T100 if this happens in our real game.

View attachment 253061

 

[Mitchum]

OK, so now it's time for us to give Dhoomstriker some guidance for the next turn set. I think we are all in agreement that the main short-term goal for the next 30 to 40 turns is to get the Pyramids.

So, start testing and let's see if we can come up with a tech path plan, location for Stone, worker actions, etc.

If you think we should do pre-Math chops to get the Pyramids sooner (i.e. unclethrill and havr's test games), by all means, run a test game. I would ask that you run the test game to about T135 (which is when I got the Pyramids by waiting for Math). This should give us a relative comparison between all test games. Earlier 'Mids means earlier Representation which could mean that we are much better off at T135 even though we had to put in a few extra chops into the Pyramids.

If you think our fourth city should get the wheat, please run a test game and show when we can get the Pyramids this game.

Be sure to indicate where you placed Stone and why.

Most importantly, HAVE FUN!!

 

[havr]

We should research Wheel ASAP and connect the copper.
Zara is tightly boxed and has Archers. He may be desperate and attack.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We're Winning!

Spoiler :

Looked at the attached graph.
Quite amazing ah?

Yaaaa! We're in the lead and kicking butt!


Err...

Unless it's more like golf...

Turnset Humour

Spoiler :

We are doing 14.3 posts per turn. More than twice than any other team, and more then three times than most of the other teams.

How many Forum Members .. does it take to play a turnset?

1 to play the turnset

14 to share similar experiences of playing turnsets and how the turnset could have been played differently

7 to caution about the dangers of playing the turnset

27 to point out spelling & grammatical errors in messages about how to play the turnset

53 to flame the spell checkers

6 to argue over whether it's "turnset" or "turn set"

... another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive

2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "Turnset"

15 know-it-alls who claim that they were in the industry, and that "turnset" is perfectly correct

306 to debate which method of playing the turnset is superior, which proposals will work best for a particular technique, and which proposals are faulty

27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different turnsets

14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly and then posted the corrected URLs

3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are possibly, maybe, in some way relevant to this turnset

33 to link all messages to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too"

12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the turnset controversy or the length of mesages required for each turnset

19 to quote the "Me too"s to say "Me three"

94 to post messages with screenshots relevant only to a test game

6 to post messages with screenshots relevant to the actual game

27 to complain that we need more screenshots or that the current ones "don't show enough information"

14 to post messages complaining about the width of said screenshots

7 to complain about all of the spoilers hiding the screenshots, making it too hard to find them

109 to complain about how many messages there are

43 to defend their actions or to post further off-topic messages based on the "too many messages" topic

278 to continue to talk about decisions that won't affect the turnset instead of solving the current turnset's issues

19 to insist that every move be backed up by a test game

6 to insist that every move "proven" by a test game be backed up by yet another test game

1 to post that the turnset has been played already, so that "you guys can stop playing your test games already"

***EDIT:*** Length of Messages

Spoiler :

I can't wait to see what Dhoomstrikers PPP looks like. Is there a limit to the number of characters in a single post???

As long as I only write about 29000 characters per message, then I should successfully be:

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The Wheel & Copper

Spoiler :

We should research Wheel ASAP and connect the copper.

Great idea! The Wheel can come next, after Writing.

If I time the Worker actions correctly, we'll be starting on a Road between Delhi and Stone City at about the time that we research The Wheel.

The Copper square "just happens to be along the way," so I see no harm in targeting connecting it up. Also, since we don't have Hunting yet, we can still build Warriors (until we get Hunting), in case we feel the need to build more of them.

Of course, as you say, connecting Copper ALSO gives us the choice to build Axemen.

 

[unclethrill]

Great TS Havr!!

The only question I have about the write up is, isn't the warrior that spawned to the NE and moving SE not NW and moving SW towards Zara?

In the game I always felt that Left was West, Right was East, Up was North and Down was South?

 

[BLubmuz]

Sure, good one, havr!

Even if i'm the only one surviving to barbs

A question does not let me sleep:
what have smoked Zara in our game?

It's the kind of info one can use, you'll never know...

OK, Dhoom the moment is here... let us see your PPP. You can always split it, in case.

On a more serious topic, i think i can PM Alan to ask him to delete Tata from our roster.
If i see nothing against this, i'll do it tomorrow.

And, BTW i've updated the posts on page 1.