OK, i opened the save and tried to explore the trade options.
I used the "what would make this deal work" to see what we can have, then i exit without saving.
Thank you for taking the time to post back before playing, because there are a number of points that need to be cleared up.
Sal:
Monarchy for CoL, plain
IW+Fish+Hunting for Alpha
We are absolutely not trading around Code of Laws.
As soon as we trade around Code of Laws, several things happen:
1. We risk losing the race to Philosophy, especially if AIs are able to Lightbulb
2. An AI that has Code of Laws can start demanding Civil Service from us, which we also want to hold onto for as long as possible
We're playing a tech-denial strategy here.
The only time that we might consider trading away Code of Laws is when we have 3+ trading partners and can get something for it from each of them. It is too valuable of a tech to trade away now, because AIs will avoid it.
Once we learn Currency, the trading window for it will be short, as AIs will research it. But few will research Code of Laws, so we must hang onto this tech and we must hang onto Theology until a point in the game where we have many techs that we can get for them.
Finally, if we give away Code of Laws to Saladin, he will trade it to his Buddhist Friend(s), since he is likely to be Friendly with any AI sharing his religion, due to him being a Religious-oriented Leader and having been running Buddhism as his State Religio for a long, long time (ever since 1 turn after he founded it).
Zara:
Fish+Hunting+AH for Math.
I've spoken about 100 times and have given multiple reasons why we should not trade Math with Zara first. It is a mistake to do so.
I propose this:
we can try to beg to the pleased Zara for fish and IW, if he refuses we can try for IW only, then for Fish only.
I have made this point multiple times, but I will make it once again:
WE ONLY GET ONE CHANCE TO BEG!
TRY MY TEST SAVED GAME 7 out. Try begging for all of Zara's techs. Next, try begging for them one at a time. You will find that he will give you NOTHING.
You get ONE CHANCE to beg, that's it.
Also, if you do beg a second time, not only is your chance of success a GUARANTEED 0%, you will also reduce our chances of successful begging in the future.
Every time that you beg, a hidden variable for that AI goes down. It's a hidden variable, so exact values are not known, but let's say that it starts at 100 and goes down by 35 every time that you beg. So, after begging once, it is at 65, or a 65% chance of success.
Over time, that number climbs back up to 100%. Let us call this variable "chanceOfSuccess."
Now, IN ADDITION to that variable, there is another variable that remembers the last time that you tried to beg.
It starts at 10 for Normal, and I'm not sure for Epic, but let's say that it starts at 15.
As soon as you beg, that number gets reset to 0.
After each turn, the counter increments by 1. Only once the turn counter reaches 15 does it stop incrementing. Only if the turn counter = 15 will your begging be successful. Let's call this turn counter "turnCounter."
So the code for begging would look something like the following:
public static int Beg() {
if (turnCounter >= 15) {
randomValue = rand(100)
if (randomValue > chanceOfSuccess) {
tradeSuccessful();
} else {
tradeFails();
}
} else {
tradeFails();
}
turncounter = 0
chanceOfSuccess = (chanceOfSuccess - 35);
}
Somewhere else in the code, you will see something like:
InBetweenTurns() {
turnCounter = (turnCounter + 1);
chanceOfSuccess = (chanceOfSuccess + 1);
// A bunch of other stuff happens
}
So, if you try to Beg a second time within 15 turns, you will:
a) AUTOMATICALLY FAIL to get the things that you begged for
AND
b) You will make it almost impossible for us to beg anytime again in the future
Or:
Trade Alpha to Sal for what he offers, then wait and trade with Zara (and try to beg for sailing) next turn.
I'm totally lost here. How is begging for Sailing better than begging for Iron Working plus Fishing?
I think we must move on (in terms of turns), since when they will meet we'll have the "you have traded with our worst enemy" for both. sure like Hell. And this can move Zara to pleased to cautious.
You will not obtain Worst Enemy negative Diplomatic modifiers UNTIL AFTER THEY MEET. They are not Worst Enemies because they have not yet met. Worst Enemy trading WILL NOT APPLY yet.
You should focus on begging for Iron Working + Fishing from Zara, as our test game supports you doing so, and thus it really should work. If it works WE GET A FREE PERIOD OF TIME WHERE ZARA IS UNABLE TO GO TO WAR WITH US. He can become Furious with us for all we care, he will be unable to declare war during that time period.
That is the power of this begging.
But, if you abuse the begging by asking more than once, you waste this aspect of gameplay.
I'm also attracted by the Monarchy trade. It's not a robbery, since an Emperor AI evaluates our techs 20% less. Sure, we don't need it, but it's tech acquired and we can see when the AIs have Feud.
Abosolutely not. It makes no sense.
a) We have The Pyramids for Hereditary Rule. We have no use for this tech now. We can trade for it later
AND
b) We do not have Wine within our borders
AND
c) If we get Monarchy in trade from Saladin, he is more likely to treat it as a "give away" tech and the other AI or AIs that he knows will learn it in short order. That's only 1 step away from the AIs learning Feudalism for Longbowmen and for the chance to demand Civil Service from us
If we want a galley after the settler in Bedrock, better have some hammer there.
We are chopping the Crab Forest because now is the last chance that we can do it. It's 20 Hammers that you throw away permanently if you don't chop it now.
Further, we will similarly chop the Forest that stands on the Three Clam square, probably using the Worker that Pastures Wheaties' Cow. That'll give us part of our Galley Hammers, while growing Bedrock and whipping will give us the rest.
Slow-building the Galley using a Marble that will take 12 turns to improve will not work as well as getting two sets of 20 Hammers.
Edit for Dhoom:
I'm not a fan of OB with Sal until we have our settlers in place in the West Coast.
If there is something in the PPP that I wrote that you disagree with, we'd better have a vote on it. It's not acceptable for you to just play ahead because you disagree with a decision. The team has to be in agreement with that choice.
It's our #1 goal to get Buddhism. Open Borders with an AI that knows Buddhism increases our chances from less than a 1% chance to get Buddhism to about a 30% chance to get it in one of our 4 western religion-less Cities.
And rest assured i know well the diplo modifiers for begging anything and how to beg something successfully.
That may be true, but you apparently are new to the idea of FAILED begging, because you cannot be successful after a failed begging attempt.
You also cannot succeed the second time that you beg, regardless of whether you succeeded or failed in your first begging attempt. It's a fact of the game. "No multiple picking on the weak players more than once and a while" is the design choice here.
Try it out in the TEST 7 saved game, as I outlined above where you first ask for a ridiculous trade and then ask for something simple like "just Fishing" and you'll see what I mean: all future begging on the same turn or within the rest of your turnset will fail.
