SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

I am hoping to see Irgy's test game results, as well.

If that's the case and the plains hill is still a reasonable option, I'll try and do it tonight.

Tomorrow night I'm at a bucks party, but after that it's a downhill run to Saturday morning when I'll have a lot of time. It would be nice to complete my turn-set by then. That will be a week after the save is released, almost a quarter of the total time we have, so I wouldn't want to hold it up too much longer.

It's a shame we couldn't start this debate earlier, as we have substantially no more information to go on now than we did weeks ago when the image of the start was posted.


The reason why I appear to be all over the map is because of flexibility. I don't want to completely control the game, but if the majority of the team thinks that having me control a lot of the overall strategy and short-term goals throughout the game is the way to go, then I'll stop cautiously trying not to stomp on other people's ideas and I'll just push my way as "the best way" from day 1.

I'm very much in favour of doing things the way you describe. It's just that sometimes it's almost like you're toying with us, one day you convince everyone to go for culture, then the next day you tear the whole argument apart. You did say it was devils advocate that time, but it was still a bit of a logical rollercoaster for everybody.

I think as I said before we really just need a clearer path to consensus, rather than just pages of posts, even if those posts are informative and well written arguments.
 
Okay, so I'll try to write one more message that summarizes a lot of what I'd like to see us doing. If you disagree with some of it, then it all falls apart, and that's where I will start to be more all over the map again.

This post of mine is somewhat useless, but I just had to say that this comment above by Dhoomstriker alone was worth the price of admission. I almost fell off my chair laughing. Thanks for being honest! :goodjob:

We've been duly warned! ;)
 
So, I guess we have to vote again (sigh). Here are the voting options as I see them:
1. Warrior goes SW. This move best supports those who want to settle one of 1E or in place.
2. Warrior goes N. This move best supports those who want to settle 1NW, as it reveals the most non-Forested squares that would appear in our new fat cross, thus showing us the greatest chance of finding Resources. Now that we know about all of the Hills we'd miss in the east, hardly anyone probably wants to settle 1NW anyway.
3. Warrior goes NE. This movement best supports those who are deadset on playing a Diplo game and settling on the Plains Hills square.
4. Warrior goes SE. This movement best supports someone who doesn't like the in place settling idea at all and would probably like to settle 1E for a bit more production at the cost of a couple of Grassland Cottages. We'd move the Warrior to the Plains Hills square on the next turn, just to see a bit more of what we'd be missing by not settling on the Plains Hills square. Note that the Warrior moving here would be useless for settling in place.
5. Come up with a new idea and force a re-vote.

I vote for option 1: warrior SW... with a strong inclination to settle in place on T0.
 
Here's what I'd like to do:

Play a Diplo game but settle our second city as if it were going to be a Legendary City in a cultural game.

Aim to get all of Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, and Confucianism early on. Hinduism is in there because it's a 50% chance, according to Irgy, which I believe is worth trying for given our religion-beelining strategy, despite the cost that was raised.

If we fail at getting one of those last 3 religions, then we should revisit our Diplo strategy. Things could be easily salvageable if one AI founded 2 of the religions, as the goal will be to limit how many DIFFERENT AIs have a Holy City. If there are 3 AIs at that point with their own Holy Cities, then our Diplo game might not work as well and we will want to examine the option of converting to a Cultural game or of adapting our strategy a bit in terms of war declarations.

So, the tech path would be:
Polytheism (a chance at a Religion) -> Agriculture (Corn) -> Masonry (Monotheism pre-req) -> Monotheism (Religion--if we fail at this one, we'll need to revisit our strategy) -> Priesthood (Oracle + Writing = Theology) -> Bronze Working (Help in building The Oracle/Settlers/Workers) -> Writing -> Code of Laws (Confucianism)

Now what stinks about that tech path is that we leave out Alphabet until after Confucianism. However, if an AI grabs it for us, then we're good to go, as we will have Christianity as possible trade bait, or Confucianism if we've been building a Great Scientist for Philosophy.

The value of getting Confucianism EARLY is that we can actually delay Philosophy until our second Great Scientist if we don't trade Confucianism away, allowing us to build an Academy with our first Great Scientist, as AIs will avoid Confucianism if we research it early enough and they genrally take a long time to get to Drama, which are the two alternate pre-requisites to Philosophy.

By securing Christianity, we greatly delay the time that it takes for an AI to get to Divine Right, at which point we are hoping that religions have spread well enough that Islam from Divine Right will be a sidelined religion, even by the founder.

As we approach the time to research Writing, we can do a couple of test games to see if the timing for building The Oracle would allow us to sneak in The Wheel and Pottery.

If we can't fit those techs in before Writing, then we can seriously consider a post-Oracle test game to sneak in either The Wheel and Pottery (if we don't have much tech leeway) or Alphabet (if we have a bit more tech leeway, planning to trade for The Wheel and Pottery). Alphabet would be great to grab there, but not if we risk missing Confucianism as a result. Building The Oracle early on, when we only have 2 cities, may help with convincing many AIs to stay away from Priesthood, the early optional pre-requisite to Confucianism (the other being the later-researched tech of Currency).


After having both Code of Laws and Alphabet, Aesthetics is a good tech to get, either to go for Parthenon (if we are decided on Cultural at that point) or for the Shwedagon Paya to prevent another AI from being able to switch to Free Religion. If we're going for a Diplo game, then we can chase after Literature instead of Philosophy if we commit to Lightbulbing Philosophy with either an early 2nd Great Scientist (probably easy to get as a Philosophical Leader) or with our 1st one if we end up having to trade Confucianism just to get Alphabet or if we're late in getting out a Great Scientist--perhaps due to bad luck and generating an early Great Prophet or due to forgetting to prioritize Great People.


Once we have Alphabet, we should try to pick a target Civ to build the Apostolic Palace for us, by trading them our monopoly on Theology. Mansa would be a bad choice, as he'd trade the tech away immediately. We'd want an AI that will not trade the tech away with 2 of us knowing it, and possibly even an AI that won't trade it away even if another AI manages to manually research that tech, although that point might be moot if the AI that researched it would trade it away once 3 players know that tech. So, perhaps an AI that won't trade it away immediately but is also an AI that has one of our religions and likes to build Wonders would be our best choice.


If no one is researching Currency, we may have to research it ourselves around this time, but with it having 2 alternate pre-requisites (Math and Alphabet), there's a good chance that multiple AIs will research it and thus we'll have a good chance to be able to get it in trade.


If we are set on a Cultural Victory by the point that we're at Aesthetics, we will still get Literature, but we won't build the Great Library. Instead, we'll grab Drama (unless another AI already knows Literature or Drama and possibly if many AIs know Aesthetics and have good tech rates) and then head for Music, but will otherwise beeline Music.

Being the first to Music gives us that extra Great Artist and gives us the best possible chance of building The Sistine Chapel, a Wonder that will make or break your Cultural Victory in BTS by as much as 80 turns (less so in Vanilla and Warlords). Since most AIs will ignore researching Music if someone else has it, our relative monopoly gives us a strong chance of getting this Wonder.

Also, we'll build the National Epic (100% more Great People Production in a city) shortly after researching Literature--in our Great Library city for a Diplo game. In a Cultural game, we will be it in either an extremely-high-Food city or in one of our 3 Legendary-to-be Cities.

A Diplo game could optionally skip Music and head for Calendar, if no AI has learned it yet and then try for the Mausoleum of Maussollos, but the tech situation will have to be judged at the time. It's not a Wonder that will help us much in terms of this game, anyway, as its biggest benefit is not the extra production but the extra window for which you can switch Civics and Religions anarchy-free. So, this Wonder is even for a Diplo game going to be an optional, nice-to-have Wonder, that can easily be skipped as a result of us being a Spiritual Civ.


Note that we've avoided Monarchy up to this point, so we will either get it in trade or use whipped cheap Temples for our Happiness.


From here, if we haven't managed to score a Great Scientist, we've probably pushed the envelope on getting Philosophy, but hopefully with time to research Drama first, we'll be able to manually research it.


Assuming that we've lightbulbed Philosophy, it'll finally be time to go for Civil Service. Now, here's a potential sticking point--if we can get Math in trade and if we have a pretty good monopoly on Aesthetics, then we can probably sneak in Civil Service before we go for Literature. But, if the AIs are nipping at our heels on the Aesthetics path, then we're probably going to have to delay Civil Service until after we've secured Literature (as well as Music for a Cultural game) and Philosophy.


From there, it's a push to Liberalism. For a Cultural game, we grab Nationalism, or, if at least 1 AI has researched that tech, and we've had awesome trades (such as getting Machinery in trade) we will take Printing Press, which has Machinery as a pre-requisite. Nationalism is usually better for a Cultural game, as you can immediately begin work on the uber-Cathedral known as the Hermitage.

Depending upon our relative monopoly on Nationalism, we can also try for the Taj Mahal, as it has a nice cultural output and does produce Great Artist points, although those points won't contribute much at this stage of the game, they may help to make an otherwise-non-Great-Aritist turn into a Great Artist, due to there being 1 more source of Artist Great People Points in one of our Legendary cities.


If, on the other hand, we have a monopoly on Paper, we can research Liberalism to within 1 turn and then head towards Astronomy. Depending upon how well we can trade for the pre-requisites, we could immediately grab Astronomy with Liberalism, or we could even just learn those pre-requisites so as to grab a safe monopoly on Astronomy. We'd keep Astronomy to ourselves and we'd populate the empty spaces in the world, preferably not settling more than 2 cities per offshore continent on which we do not plan to build a Forbidden Palace (or else move our Palace to or else capture Versailles on), to avoid the 3+ cities on a foreign continent Colonial Corruption penalty.


After Astronomy, we'd head straight to Mass Media. Astronomy plus Cats and Maces (you need Machinery for Astronomy and we're not skipping Civil Service in this game, so we'd have Maces, unlike our practice game's possibility of not having them) will be more than enough for Diplo war.


Note that as we get closer to Liberalism in a Cultural game, we may realize that we are in a bad situation due to there being an overseas Barb city controlling the Fur and will thus be required to research Astronomy. Hopefully, we won't need Astronomy in order to trade for and capture all of the Resources that Eldine requires (4 in 10 of the test games that I generated using the game's settings did not require Astronomy to reach all of the AIs but there was usually at least 1 small island somewhere that required Astronomy), but if we do need Astronomy, then we can assess the tech situation at that point and decide whether to delay 100% culture by manually researching techs or else hoping to get all Astronomy pre-requisites in trade while we push towards a Cultural win, then probably delaying our Cultural push to manually research Astronomy, as we won't want to be trading away our tech lead of Education and Liberalism just to get Astronomy in trade (assuming that we still have a "lead" on those techs at that point and being under the assumption that an AI would even trade us Astronomy). This part of the Cultural game is the biggest potential flaw--our research rate will not be great and by delaying our Cultural victory to get Astronomy, we risk the game dragging out long enough for some of the AIs to learn Liberalism. But, that's one possible constraint of the game that we'll just have to deal with.


Back to the Diplo game, we'd set up our international allies and enemies while we tech towards Mass Media. If we didn't get a Great Engineer yet, we'd try to get one.

We'd seriously consider the strategy of gifting a city, perhaps a well-developed one that we capture from an AI and plan to return to them, but if we have enough of the world liking each other, then we could potentially still win the game if no one votes for the #2 in population AI (assuming that we are #1 in population and control the United Nations ourselves) and instead the #3, #4, and #5 AIs all vote for us. That latter situation is harder to get than the gifting situation, but we'll have to be careful not to let our target AI opponent get too small, so as to avoid them becoming a vassal of another AI and thus being unable to accept our gift anymore.


Failing having a Great Engineer wouldn't be too bad if our targeted United Nations city is relatively big and production heavy, although we'd definitely set ourselves back a lot.

We'd then need to generate another couple of Great People, assuming that we'd saved a couple until this point.

Since we wouldn't have Gunpowder (I claimed it was Rifling earlier but it is actually Gunpowder that obsoletes Warriors), if we'd somehow messed up getting 4 Warriors, we'd build a city that is isolated from the rest of the world and build our Warriors there.
 
Check out Gosh190's amazing diplo win in 960 AD in BOTM 09 (Immortal). I don't have the right version of civ installed, but I could replay his game here.

He did some early warring, but not very much at all. I think he declared on and eliminated one civ, but that's it (I watched it quickly before I had to go to bed). He didn't found any early religions, but he teched like a mad man, learning Mass Media in 850 AD. Obviously, the tech pace will be higher in an Immortal game, but this is still very fast. Pay attention to his tech path, great people, early REX, Wonders built, etc.

Another note, this was an inland sea map, so meeting the neighbors was very quick and easy. I would think that this would make the religious situation tougher though.

From his spoiler:


I settled in place. Choosed SE economy.
2050 GW
1775 Pyrs
1625 Alph
1325 1-st GS ->>> Math!!!
1225 Curr

!!! in 1250 Isaw that AI do not know Priest yet!!!

so... Oracle was built in 1050 ->>> CS!

1000BC
3 cities (21 pop)
4-5 workers.
_______________________________

contender 960AD diplo 166K

it's my first xOTM finished immortal game so I'm happy to win!

10 cities, 126 pop. SE economy gives me 9XX bulb per turn at the end of my game.

10 GS were born:
1 Math
2 Education
3 Academy
4 PPress
5 Phisics
6,7,8,9 Electricity (was researched for one turn)
10 GoldenAge 2 turns before MM was finished

PS (for Bugg123): 860AD MM, 870AD UN

Votes:
Gil 73 + WK 91 -> WK
Bis 62 + Sal 82 + JC 78 + St 126 -> Stalin.

Cirys did't participate because of deaf in 2475BC. I settled in the start position.​


Would it be a waste of time looking more into this save since it's so different from our game setup?
 
Would it be a waste of time looking more into this save since it's so different from our game setup?

Here's what I would check out from the final saved game, if I were you:
- Which religions each player has, or whether they are in Free Religion
- What kinds of Diplo modifiers he is using--are there a lot Shared War bonuses?
- What level of Pleased and Friendly are the AIs with him, as well as the total VISIBLE negative and positive Diplo modifiers

It is possible that he nullified religion by using Free Religion himself or by having one of the AIs do so. It is also possible that he got lucky with a religious block being formed that he was able to join.

It is possible that several hidden positive diplo modifiers were in his favour.

If you play on past the end, who votes for him in the next vote? You should be able to try for a Diplo Win vote again, to get the truest picture possible, unless he also has a write-up that tells us who voted for him.

If you play on and piss off some AIs, how many total positive and negative Diplo modifiers do you need to get an AI in order for your relationship to go "down one level"--i.e. from Friendly to Pleased or Pleased to Cautious, etc. There are set numbers for those thresholds, which will help you to guess the hidden modifier values. Also, make note of the relative power levels of him and the AIs whenever you take these measurements, as those power levels will play a role, too.


If he's breaking any of the SGOTM 11's additional rules--particularly those about dead AIs, more than 3 AIs having been war targets, or at least one player not being in a religion, then the game's applicability comes into question. If all of those points are satisfied, we should try to get a feel for what the hidden modifiers are, as well as what the visible modifers are--perhaps he had high hidden modifiers or perhaps he ended up with AIs that are easy to please based on the modifiers that he chose (Isabella for shared religion, a War Mongeror for shared war, etc).


Further, some games are more randomly biased towards everyone liking each other, while others are not. There was an Immortal XOTM--the human player as Japan--back around December 2009--where all of the AIs were extremely buddy-buddy with each other, so a Diplo game could be fairly easy in such a situation, regardless of the religious mood.
 
Here's what I would check out from the final saved game, if I were you:

Unfortunately, it was played on a older version of Civ and I don't want to downgrade. You bring up many good points, none of which I can check. Also, I don't want to go too far down this path and have you go all over the map again... :D

I quickly read your plan above and it makes sense for a high-level strategy. I haven't assimilated all of it yet as I'm tired and my daughters will be up early in the morning jumping on my head if I'm not awake yet. :sad:

I'll re-read it and post intelligently on it tomorrow.
 
From his spoiler:
2050 GW
1775 Pyrs
Sounds like Stone nearby.

1325 1-st GS ->>> Math!!!
so... Oracle was built in 1050 ->>> CS!
He used The Pyramids' Representation to get an early Civil Service beeline, perhaps even having a Gold or other early high-Commerce Resource.

1000BC
3 cities (21 pop)
Again, the effects of Representation giving him 3 Happiness in 3 cities, giving him a highly productive empire with uber Specliasts and low Corruption.

So much of his game is relying on early Pyramids plus possibly an early high-Commerce square multiplying into an early Bureaucracy bonus on top of running Scientists for 6 Flasks each in his other cities.


Cirys did't participate because of deaf in 2475BC.
I'm assuming that he means Cyrus was eliminated early on in the game, changing the balance of power and land area.


The biggest problem is that I do not see us getting either The Pyramids or a Civil Service slingshot. Without both of those, his whole approach falls to pieces, as non-Representation Scientists won't really cut it for your main long-term research contributors. So, you'll be working Cottages and won't be generating the multiple Great Scientists that he used to bulb many of the techs along the way.


We can certainly get some info from his game, particularly how he was getting the AIs to vote for him, but with such a quick and large tech lead, he probably had all of the tech advantage that he needed (and we won't be able to get nearly as big of a lead) to manipulate the world's diplomacy several times over.
 
Okay I stayed up until 10Am reading all this (I work nights and sleep during the day) and I need to digest all of that post. I'm not trying to give up but I do want to move forward sometime soon. I'll post a bit more is 8 hours when I get back to work but I think we are getting closer to where we need to be.
 
(...)
1) Where to move the warrior
for what i can see there're 2 chances:
1a) NW
1b) SW
1c) somewhere else (please specify)
those options seems to be the most discussed, so i've put a 3rd one in case i'm wrong.

2) Settler
2a) move to PH
2b) settle in place and maybe regret 1 second later

24 hours from the time of this post to decide.

My votes:
1b
2a
My votes:
1a (warrior NW)
2b (settle in place)
My votes:
1b
2a
I also vote 1b and 2a.
My votes:
1b
2b
What??? How can you move the Warrior? We don't have a primary and secondary settling location determined. We can't say for sure where to move the Warrior until then. I will tell you what I think is the best spot to move the Warrior once we have this settling perspective in place.
5 of us have voted. probably you and Mitch do not care how to move the warrior, since you never mentioned that in your posts.
No one else actually cares about that move, but 3 voted 1b (warrior SW), 2 1a, 2 abstains. This is a majority. 24 hours are gone.
 
5 of us have voted. probably you and Mitch do not care how to move the warrior, since you never mentioned that in your posts.
No one else actually cares about that move, but 3 voted 1b (warrior SW), 2 1a, 2 abstains. This is a majority. 24 hours are gone.
The settler move is a key move and we have 3 votes for the PH and 2 for SIP.
But any stupid can read Dhoom and Mitch post and understand they want SIP.
This makes 4 votes in favor of SIP. Majority wins.

SIP
the 24 hours are gone.
 
That's not what I asked for and the reason is the same that I previously PMed you about: by bringing this fact public, instead of keeping it to a Private Message, you draw more attention to other players about this strategic concept. You also give away the fact that our team is gathering info from other teams' uploaded saved games, which may influence them to either do the same or be trickier, such as delaying their future uploads or uploading at "odd times" to mess with our analysis.
Sure you asked me to send a PM.
I judged this issue not private. I PM to Alan (who is bound to answer at least by courtesy) only for personal or team issues or problems. This is not, it's a problem common to all teams and to the Staff.

It's fair to act in this way, period.
 
The settler move is a key move and we have 3 votes for the PH and 2 for SIP.
But any stupid can read Dhoom and Mitch post and understand they want SIP.
This makes 4 votes in favor of SIP. Majority wins.

SIP
the 24 hours are gone.
Irgy's PPP was a single-unit-move-PPP and a screenie
It has to be followed by a 2nd one where he will do the same for the settler+screenie thing in both cases (2a or 2b).

I gave green light for the first, not the second.
Maybe you was too busy in writing do you have missed this post?

But strictly conforming to the rules i can even give green light NOW to SIP.
Even if i voted for the opposite.

Once this move is done and we can see the screenshot, we can start talk of a true PPP. And make decent tests.
 
So, I think the next step to get this game moving is to decide who wants to SIP on T0 and who wants to climb the plains hill. I think we've heard everyone's arguments on both sides multiple times, right? Is there another option that someone wants to argue? If not, cast your vote.

My vote is to settle in place on T0.

Or do we want to run more tests first?

My vote is to settle in place on T0, regardless of what the Warrior reveals, (...)

I vote for option 1: warrior SW... with a strong inclination to settle in place on T0.
Sorry, i missed those when i posted before.

This makes a clear Majority to settle in place and a clear Majority to move the warrior SW.

It's all we need for a PPP:
a) Settle the Capital
b) move the warrior
c) stop and post a Screenie.

In case settling the Capital reveals something unexpected, skip b) and just post the screenie.

Then we'll discuss the actual PPP.
 
My votes:
1b
2a
Tata, maybe you missed it, (easy, we're spamming this thread) i've asked you to activate PMs in your profile. And to let us see when your last activity in CFC was, as anyone else in this Team.

Also, if you like to give us some info on yourself, like your time zone and anything else, you're welcome.
 
Okay here is my 2cents:

We currently have 230+ posts, 12 pages and what we agree on is that at some point in the future we might play but even that is questionable if BLubmuz pushes the idea of meeting any timeline whatsoever.

I guess we can agree that we need to eventually settle the first settler and probably should move the warrior at some point. We agree that we should shoot for a diplo or culture VC. We agree that we should either research Poly or agri. We agree that we should either chase a bunch of the religions or maybe we shouldn't.

I vote for whatever Dhoom wants to do since it appears that he has the best arguments or at least the most detailed and longest by far. So who's with me?

I apologize for sounding like a smarta$$ here but I would really like to do more that just talk about the game. No matter where we settle, the decision may be wrong. No matter what VC we choose to chase, the decision may be wrong. No matter the stance on religion we take, we may be wrong.

Unfortunately, after 230+ posts, 12 pages and a week of reading, I have no idea where anyone stands on pretty much any of the topics. Dhoom seems to post arguments for one direction to go, Mitchum verifies the plan, then the rest of us come around just about to an agreement. Then just about that time Dhoom post another equally long and detail post explaining why we are all wrong and this other path is the key to success. and the process starts all over again.

I suggest that Dhoom make a post that states what his wishes are in the game: settler placement, warrior move, first tech, chase for religions or not and VC choice. No detailed explanations just a clear and concise post about what he wants for this game. He seems to be the most experienced player in this game situation so I will defer to his judgment at this point but I honestly don't know what that is anymore.

Exactly what I wanted to say.

I am no expert in Civ, strategy and all. But I know one thing for certain: if we don't play we will not win. Anything.

Dhoom plan sounds good and convincing.

Less talk, more play.
 
Okay here is my 2cents:

We currently have 230+ posts, 12 pages and what we agree on is that at some point in the future we might play but even that is questionable if BLubmuz pushes the idea of meeting any timeline whatsoever.

I guess we can agree that we need to eventually settle the first settler and probably should move the warrior at some point. We agree that we should shoot for a diplo or culture VC. We agree that we should either research Poly or agri. We agree that we should either chase a bunch of the religions or maybe we shouldn't.

I vote for whatever Dhoom wants to do since it appears that he has the best arguments or at least the most detailed and longest by far. So who's with me?

I apologize for sounding like a smarta$$ here but I would really like to do more that just talk about the game. No matter where we settle, the decision may be wrong. No matter what VC we choose to chase, the decision may be wrong. No matter the stance on religion we take, we may be wrong.

Unfortunately, after 230+ posts, 12 pages and a week of reading, I have no idea where anyone stands on pretty much any of the topics. Dhoom seems to post arguments for one direction to go, Mitchum verifies the plan, then the rest of us come around just about to an agreement. Then just about that time Dhoom post another equally long and detail post explaining why we are all wrong and this other path is the key to success. and the process starts all over again.

I suggest that Dhoom make a post that states what his wishes are in the game: settler placement, warrior move, first tech, chase for religions or not and VC choice. No detailed explanations just a clear and concise post about what he wants for this game. He seems to be the most experienced player in this game situation so I will defer to his judgment at this point but I honestly don't know what that is anymore.
Sure, i agree.
Too many posts and too long. And often oriented on totally different paths. Dhoom, can you convince your 2 neurons to act as a team? Somet posts are probably wrote when Neuron Charlie is active, some others when Neuron Billy is. And often they are opposite. Please set up a turn overlap between them or try to recruit some more neuron, so we can better understand you.

I for me, have problems with my 2 neurons (Claude and Bessie). They are still on strike and they don't wanna even talk with me.


I agree that we need to get moving or we'll never finish on time. As we discussed in our other attempted succession game, the definition of the high-level strategy may take some time. Then, once we're all on board, the rest of the time will be focused on carrying out said strategy, which should go much quicker. It is important that we all agree with this strategy, otherwise some will lose interest and drop out (if they haven't already).
How can we define the high level strategy with no knowledge of our land? Just this: if we have stone nearby we surely shoot at the Pyramids and this can be a huge difference.

I already proposed this and it's one of the few things which Dhoom answered clearly: we can wait some TS to decide, the early path doesn't differ much between the 2 options:
- if we choose Diplo we'll research the religions to make our life easier
- if we choose Culture we'll research the religions to build more cathedrals and have a better finish date.

But now, please let's move this first TS.


I sense some frustration, Unclethrill. Earlier today, you wanted to move to the plains hill and avoid chasing early religions. Now you want to put the whole game in Dhoomstriker's hands? I would agree that he is probably the best on this team, especially related to cultural victories (and possibly diplo as well) . However, 7 heads are better than 1. And 14 eyes watching multiple test games are better than 2 eyes doing it. (...)
Test games worth almost nothing until we know our land (see above). Probably Unclethrill is just tired of this too long discussion, often focused on mid and long term plans.
We generated 5 pages of posts in some 24 hours and we barely decided where to settle and where to move the warrior. And this after 6 more pages of posts.

Many interesting things were posted by a Member or another in those pages, but who can ever find something in all that mess?

Let's be more focused on the problem we have to decide. It's 5 days we're discussing anything on this game.
 
Since we arrived to a decision (thanks God we're in 7 :mad:), now we must take next one:

a) Agri first - worker first
b) Poly > Agri (breaking Poly if we're beaten) - warrior > worker
c) do we have it? really? please specify!

please vote. We already spent rivers of ink on this. I don't set a deadline until i'll see the Screenies.

And i don't vote until i see the screenies.
 
Since we arrived to a decision (thanks God we're in 7 :mad:), now we must take next one:

a) Agri first - worker first
b) Poly > Agri (breaking Poly if we're beaten) - warrior > worker
c) do we have it? really? please specify!

please vote. We already spent rivers of ink on this. I don't set a deadline until i'll see the Screenies.

And i don't vote until i see the screenies.

Rivers of electrons. Really. :crazyeye:
Option b.
 
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