SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Dhoomstriker]

Is Irgy up now? LOL.

I don't care who plays next, but whoever it is, they'll have to wait for some test game results.

From this point forward, certain things have to be figured out from Test Games, including:
- Build orders, Worker movements and actions, Timing of techs to co-incide with Worker actions, timing of producing units and City 4--those last two being economy-based, with having too many units or City 4 too soon dragging down our economy, while also not wanting to get them too late, so as to avoid unecessarily delaying The Pyramids.


It's one big, complicated Math puzzle right now...

 

[unclethrill]

Triple post. Not sure why

 

[Mitchum]

And Great TS Dhoom.

Is Irgy up now? LOL.

Can't wait to see the rest of you PPP. Is there anything we need to discuss heavily before we see it?

If you want to run test games, I suggesting playing through different scenarios working toward the Theology, settling Stone, Pyramids and fixing our economy. I'm testing between Pyramids ASAP (i.e. chopping pre-Math) with waiting for Math before chopping. The location of Stone and timing of settling Stone have an affect on this. Also, there are a lot of things that can be built in Delhi (temple, library, missionaries, granary, etc.) and Riverdale (library, granary, temple, missionaries, etc.). Finally, we'll need to decide our tech path to support which option we chose. All of these pieces need to fit together to net us the Pyramids on a safe date while moving our empire forward.

It's actually quite a complicated puzzle (at least in my mind) to have all of the pieces fall into place at the right time. Give it a go and you'll see what I mean. Try to time growing Delhi with hiring priests. Balance settling Stone with getting a GPro and bulbing Theology. There are many options and I'm looking for a way to make everything fit well.

If you just want to make comments, you could make suggestions on what to do about the barbs when they enter our lands, research path, building we want in each city, etc.

 

[unclethrill]

Hopefully I can run some tests in a couple hours.

 

[BLubmuz]

Alright, good one, as expected. You even not chosen Fishing from the Oracle! Great!

I think we need to plan carefully our next moves.
And don't forget that CS is great when you settle a city: the borders expand at lightspeed.

If we manage to grow big and powerful enough (and i can't see why not) and Zara will be friendly or highly pleased, it's easy he ask to accept him as a vassal.
So, no problems, if an AI want declare on him, it will declare on us.

I think that after wheel we must beeline Alpha to set up some tech trading with Zara.
I know pottery is needed, but with all our workers busy roading, i can't see when they can find the time to build cottages before we arrive to alpha.
In case, we can research Fishing, it's very cheap and we can build a couple of exploring WBs.

Note for UT: it's the second time you triple post: what's up with your browser?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I think we need to plan carefully our next moves.
And don't forget that CS is great when you settle a city: the borders expand at lightspeed.

If we manage to grow big and powerful enough (and i can't see why not) and Zara will be friendly or highly pleased, it's easy he ask to accept him as a vassal.
So, no problems, if an AI want declare on him, it will declare on us.

I think that after wheel we must beeline Alpha to set up some tech trading with Zara.
I know pottery is needed, but with all our workers busy roading, i can't see when they can find the time to build cottages before we arrive to alpha.
In case, we can research Fishing, it's very cheap and we can build a couple of exploring WBs.

Note for UT: it's the second time you triple post: what's up with your browser?

Hi BLubmuz,

Do you think that you can find time to run a test game to demonstrate your theory?
I'm pretty sure that you are suggesting:
The Wheel -> Fishing -> Alphabet

Obviously, you'll chop pre-Math in this scenario, so you can start chopping The Pyramids as soon as you get Stone connected.

Feel free to settle City 4 wherever you prefer in your test (requiring Christianity or Caste System for border popping vs settling 1NW of the Stone--whatever you think will work better).

Be sure to get Christianity at SOME point, though!

Please play until you have completed The Pyramids and have founded Christianity. Preferably, if you haven't learned Alphabet by this time, you will play on until Alphabet is also ours.

It's up to you to decide if you want to build a Settler for City 5, but if you don't do it, then we won't be able to do so in our real game, for risk of delaying our tech rate to Alphabet further than in your test game. So, feel free to settle City 5 or not, but whatever you do is what we will consider doing in the real game--if you want to do it differently from how the test works out, then another test game will be needed to validate that strategy. Cool?

So, you should be aiming to report:
- The date that each tech is researched
- The date that you settled City 4 and where you settled it
- The date that you got Theology
- The date that you got The Pyramids
- Anything else that you want to report


Now that we have a Test Game where we know Confucianism, there should be no reason (other than you having no time on your hands) not to perform this testing, right? Then we can compare our dates against each other to see how well the different build orders and tech orders stack up against each other.

 

[unclethrill]

Note for UT: it's the second time you triple post: what's up with your browser?

POS computer at work. I have to wait for the boss to leave before I can pull out my computer.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Dear Zara,

We would like to Open Borders with you. We have this beaufiul thing called religion that we would like to introduce you to. In exchange, we will be mapping out your lands in a blatant attempt to meet the AI to your east and remove you as the middle-man in any future tech trades. What do you say to that?

Your future friend,
Gandhi


Zara's Response:

 

[Mitchum]

If we manage to grow big and powerful enough (and i can't see why not) and Zara will be friendly or highly pleased, it's easy he ask to accept him as a vassal.
So, no problems, if an AI want declare on him, it will declare on us.

Although this is an option, keep in mind that Dhoomstriker has mentioned countless times that taking a vassal in a diplo game is a HUGE risk. The reason is that the other AI will average their love/hatred of us with their love/hatred of our vassals. So, we may end up losing some votes that we would otherwise get without a vassal. So, having vassals makes the diplo situation a lot more tricky.

Now, if we want a deffensive pact with Zara, that is another thing. I don't recall which tech allows this, but it would be another way to protect Zara. Keep in mind that we may be forced to cancel it if the AIs we're trying to befreind don't like Zara and we start getting negative diplo points for it.

 

[BLubmuz]

I think i can run some test tomorrow.
We have many options, i'll try to verify some combination.

Mitch, aside that defensive pacts come with MT, if we have a DP with a civ, we automatically DoW the civ who attacks our friend. Thus, we cannot have DPs.

On the contrary, if we attack a civ who has a DP with a 3rd one, we'll be Dowed by that 3rd one.

While i'll run my tests, are we still undecided or do we have a preference for the VC?

I'm still thinking that Culture is safer, and if Dhoom is so good as he demonstrated in some XotM, it can be less tricky to go for it.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Victory Condition

Spoiler :

While i'll run my tests, are we still undecided or do we have a preference for the VC?

I'm still thinking that Culture is safer, and if Dhoom is so good as he demonstrated in some XotM, it can be less tricky to go for it.

Well, the team is leaning towards Diplo for sure.

Cultural would still be semi-possible, with Riverdale being one of our Legendary-to-be Cities. It's a bit of a long-shot, as that location isn't ideal, but it would have to do, as we won't be getting a different City up in the west (according to our settling plan) until after we settle City 5 by the Wheat.

Plus, I'd insist upon the Stone City also grabbing the Cow + Marble + Flood Plain by settling NW + W of the Stone, if we were to try and make it a Legendary City.

A late-game Cultural Victory is not out of the question, but it's not what we're beelining for at the moment, so I would say focus on Diplo and we'll just realise that if our plans fail, we'll keep Riverdale for ourselves and try to make it go Legendary.

 

[havr]

OK, ran a small test.

1) I went for the Alpha-first research plan. (i.e. Wheel->Fishing->Meditation->Alpha).

2) Settled Stonyville beside the stone to avoid the need to border chop.

3) I got Pyramids at turn 126 with 7 pre-math chops.

3) Got Theo at T120, but that was slow because I forgot to research meditation. We can get it earlier by about 6 turns.

What is important is that Christianity was founded @ Riverdale. We cannot count on it for border-pop

4) I waited with City 5 till after math. Settler was ready in T135.

5) Alpha was in T136. If we build City 5 it will take longer.

6) Got second GP in T137. Even though I used to scientists it was still a GPro.

7) Confus spread quickly to Zara. If we want to keep good ties & enjoy OR we will need to convert too (I did). We need to use missionary on Delhi.

 

[Mitchum]

OK, ran a small test.

1) I went for the Alpha-first research plan. (i.e. Wheel->Fishing->Meditation->Alpha).

2) Settled Stonyville beside the stone to avoid the need to border chop.

3) I got Pyramids at turn 126 with 7 pre-math chops.

3) Got Theo at T120, but that was slow because I forgot to research meditation. We can get it earlier by about 6 turns.

What is important is that Christianity was founded @ Riverdale. We cannot count on it for border-pop

4) I waited with City 5 till after math. Settler was ready in T135.

5) Alpha was in T136. If we build City 5 it will take longer.

6) Got second GP in T137. Even though I used to scientists it was still a GPro.

7) Confus spread quickly to Zara. If we want to keep good ties & enjoy OR we will need to convert too (I did). We need to use missionary on Delhi.

Excellent test. I have a few questions:

On what turn did you settle Stonyville? I recall Dhoomstriker saying that if you found a religion on the same turn a city is settled, the religion will go in this brand new city. I have done this in all of my testing and it has worked every time.

What is the health situation in Delhi? I found that chopping so many forests caused problems for me.

You got Alphabet on T136, what trades were you able to make with Zara? Could you get Math? IW? Or only basic techs? What did you have to give up in exchange?

Were all chops into the Pyramids after having stone hooked up?

Very nice. This give us something to compare the rest of the saves against.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Havr's Alphabet Test Game

OK, ran a small test.

Great! Thank you for sharing!

I have a few questions for you, and if you wouldn't mind trying to answer them, it would be appreciated if you did.

Spoiler :

1) I went for the Alpha-first research plan. (i.e. Wheel->Fishing->Meditation->Alpha).

Did you find yourself using Fishing for Work Boats or was it a waste to research it this early, based on your build orders? I.e. Do you think that we can delay researching it until after Alphabet?

2) Settled Stonyville beside the stone to avoid the need to border chop.

Were you able to have Workers nearby to Road an Quarry the Stone quickly?

3) Got Theo at T120, but that was slow because I forgot to research meditation. We can get it earlier by about 6 turns.

Do you mean that you started to research Alphabet for 6 turns and then switched back to researching Meditation? If not, then how will you get Meditation faster?

4) I waited with City 5 till after math. Settler was ready in T135.

When you say that the Settler was ready, do you mean it was in place on the PHFor near the Wheat on Turn 135 or that you finished building it in Delhi on Turn 135?

3) I got Pyramids at turn 126 with 7 pre-math chops...
6) Got second GP in T137. Even though I used to scientists it was still a GPro.

In addition to the Forest chops, for approximately how many turns were you building The Pyramids? 5? 20? 30?

Did you switch to Representation immediately after building The Pyramids?

If yes, had you been running those 2 Scientist Specialists before getting Representation or did you wait until you got Representation before hiring them?

What is important is that Christianity was founded @ Riverdale. We cannot count on it for border-pop

The only way to 100% guarantee that we get Christianity in Stonyville is to settle Stonyville on the turn where we Lightbulb Christianity with the Great Prophet (settle first, then Lightbulb). That's the tricky part about the timing--our Resarch, Great Person production, and Settler all have to be in-sync with each other.




Also, how many Workers did you have at the time of chopping The Pyramids?


Thanks for your help!

EDIT: I removed the questions that were duplicates of what Mitchum wanted to know.

 

[unclethrill]

I also ran a test tonight. I made a few mistakes like forgetting to switch to Christianity to pop Stony's borders, thus building the mids without stone.


Here are the highlights and important parts:

Research: Wheel, Meditation, Math

Delhi: Lib (whipped T93) -> Temple (T97) -> Warrior (sent to river, recalled halfway there to fight barb) -> Mids (meant to put in one turn for growth but forgot and put in 6) ->Settler (Whipped T109) -> Mids (T136)

River: Monument(Whipped T95) -> Temple (whipped T111) -> Lib (Whipped T120) -> CH
Silverado: Worker (T102) -> Worker (T127) -> Axe

Stony: Settled T114 NW+W of stone: Lib

Moved Confusion Mission to Zara Capital (2 turns) then headed to Delhi.
Switched to Slavery immediately (T92)
Converted to Confusion (T98)
Ran Priest in Delhi (T99, two turns late)
Barb Archer on N incense (T99)
Archer heads to Delhi (T106). Recalled warrior sent to River. Intercepted archer and killed him defending in forest before Archer got to Delhi.
Founded Christ in Stony. (forgot that I needed to switch to christ so no border pops and thus no stone)
Zara Founds 3rd city 1SE of Wheat (T116) (Barb warrior suicided on me so if we can keep him alive that might stop this city)
Barb city founded on silver peninsula on southern Silver. Zara suicided Archer and chariot in this city.
Got Math on T135. Mids on T136 with 3 chops. Built for 33 turns without stone.

End T136: Delhi (8), Stone (3), Silver (1), River (1), 4 workers, 6 warriors, Mids, Christianity, almost all forest around Delhi prechopped, Roads from Stoney to River through Delhi.

Not sure how much good this test is since I made several mistakes but what was important is that there is a chance of Zara settling the wheat that BLubz wants so badly and of a barb city on the southern silver.
Future tests need to at least take that into account.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Unclethrill's Math-based Pyramids

I also ran a test tonight.

Great! Thank you!

A few questions, if you wouldn't mind...

Spoiler :

Got Math on T135. Mids on T136 with 3 chops. Built for 33 turns without stone.

Am I right in thinking that you completed the 3 chops after Math was learned?

Delhi: Lib (whipped T93) -> Temple (T97) -> Warrior (sent to river, recalled halfway there to fight barb)

Which Warrior are you talking about moving? Warrior 7 that was fortified in Delhi?

Barb city founded on silver peninsula on southern Silver. Zara suicided Archer and chariot in this city.

Do you happen to know on approximately what turn the Barb City was spawned? I ask because I wonder if such a Barb City can spawn after Delhi's borders expand once more at the 750 Culture mark.

Not sure how much good this test is since I made several mistakes but what was important is that there is a chance of Zara settling the wheat

I will certainly to my best to keep that eastern Warrior alive as long as possible during my turnset, in order to discourage Zara from settling in the area as much as possible.

 

[Mitchum]

I also ran a test tonight. I made a few mistakes like forgetting to switch to Christianity to pop Stony's borders, thus building the mids without stone.

Great. We have another test with a different tech path.

Regarding mistakes, feel free to go back to an auto save (I auto save every turn) and play forward eliminating your mistake. I do this at least 5 times per test I run because I either forget to change civics or religion, forget to make a resource trade, realize a few turns later that I need my worker in a different position to start an important task at the right time, change my build or tech sequence, etc. Doing this will give the best results possible for your chosen strategy so that it can be evaluated more fairly against the alternative test scenarios.

EDIT: I'm still working on my test game. I should have results this weekend. This testing should cover the next 3 turnsets, so getting it right should help us more quickly play 45 to 50 turns.

 

[Irgy]

Ok, I stuffed around a bit with the test save, not plaing particularly optimally so I won't give you the details (and yes it definately was the test save! ). Mostly just trying to get my head around the current issues. Some highlights:
* I built the pyramids in Riverdale (!), completed on turn 135. Have we considered that as an option? It will certainly help in the culture war. Likely to delay the pyramids though so it is a risk.
* Zara had settled 3 cities, and still hadn't even made a move towards any land we might be contesting. He settled one east and one on some tundra to the south. What an idiot he is.
* What religeon do we want to run now? It seems that if we switch to confucianism before the missionary arrives in the capital (which takes quite a while) we'll have an unhappy face to deal with, but every turn we don't switch we lose 5 culture in Riverdale.
* I opened borders with Zara, and he had switched to Confucianism in fairly short time, which is good news.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Comment for Irgy's Test Run

Spoiler :

* I built the pyramids in Riverdale (!), completed on turn 135. Have we considered that as an option? It will certainly help in the culture war. Likely to delay the pyramids though so it is a risk.

Certainly, the idea is a neat one. How many Forests did you have to chop? When did you start work on building The Pyramids there? Did you have Stone connected when you started? If not, do you know approximately how many turns you were building it without the Stone?
How many other buildings did you produce before starting on The Pyramids?

* What religeon do we want to run now?

Confucianism when we can, although maybe not immediately, as we still want the Organized Religion bonus in the capitol. If you slot in a Worker or start on a Settler in the capitol, then the Organized Religion bonus is meaningless and you can switch to Confucianism without fear of losing the Organized Religion bonus in the capitol, since you can't use the bonus when building units anyway.

we'll have an unhappy face to deal with, but every turn we don't switch we lose 5 culture in Riverdale.

I think that most of us are whipping the Library on the turn after some Hammers were invested into it, which helped with happiness issues in the capitol.

 

[Mitchum]

@ Irgy

Nice twist. I like the Pyramids in Riverdale, even if we end up giving them to Zara with a turn or two left in the game. It will start a clean gene pool for our Great Engineer.

What was your tech path? Were your chops pre-Math or post-Math?

How many turns total were you building the Pyramids?

Where and on what turn did you settle Stone? Was Christianity founded there? If so, what turn?