SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

Great work Dhoomstriker!

So, from what I understand of the roster I guess that means I'm up? It's perfect timing in RL, as I have an unusually large amount of free time coming up (free time for me is when my wife is at work and I'm at home. I still have to look after a baby though).

As far as I understand, we've mostly planned through this coming turnset already, it's mostly just a matter of nailing the micro down. If someone who doesn't suck with worldbuilder (i.e. not me) could update the test save that would be really, really helpful. I'll then play through in the test save, write down exactly what I did, and start optimising it.
Thanks. Yes, you're up next.

Mitchum should be able to come along and get your a World-buildered saved game soon enough.

To Mitchum
Spoiler :
A couple of notes for you: I demanded the Clam on Turn 100.

I won't bother to detail the Warrior movements, as you can always move them into their current position and then just end their turn a lot, World-building out any Barb units that appear in the meantime.

Perhaps the tricky part will be Warrior 7, since he costs us Gold per Turn for a bit... he'll be inside of our borders and in Delhi for a while. He went sraight SE out of Delhi on Turn 99, 1525 BC and exited our borders (and thus costing us 1 Gold per Turn) on Turn 101, 1475 BC. He stayed outside of our borders until the current turn.

I think that all of the other pertinent details are in the PPP, but feel free to ask for any info that you think you need.



Other Comments for the next Turnsets
Spoiler :
I've already started on Settler 4, so you'll just continue to build it. Delhi is running a Priest for our Great Prophet.

Once the Great Prophet comes in, I fired the Priest and just had him work the GRiv Irr square. Technically, if we can get Settler 5 in the same amount of time, we could hire the Priest back for part of that time (check every couple of turns to see if hiring the Priest will lose you a turn on Settler 5), but I'd rather not run the Priest the entire time, as I believe doing so will delay Settler 5 by a turn or so, which could prove to be crucial in our tight race for the Wheat City.

Settler 4 should be able to run immediately to the location NW + W of the Stone (please don't settle NW of the Stone), sit down, and then have the Great Prophet magically exist to be able to immediately Lightbulb Christianity.


I don't remember the timing of Meditation--if we have enough Gold for 1 more turn after learning it to stay at 100% Science, then do so before switching back to 0% Science, but if we don't have enough Gold to do so, switch to 0% Science on the turn that Meditation is learned. Math is our next tech.


I think that we can safely stay out of Org Religion, Slavery, and Confucianism for now, switching into them on the same turn as each other some time in the future, when we are ready to whip the Granaries.


A Granary will be the next build in Delhi after Settler 5, followed by The Pyramids.


As a result, there is no rush to hook up the Stone. I built AT LEAST 1 Cottage using 3 Workers in Stone City on the turn that it was settled. Since it takes 8 Worker turns, we only need 2 Workers "there" on the first turn, so I think that I had Worker 4 "coming a bit late" as he probably pre-chopped a Forest (such as the one that we don't want to chop in the short run 1N of the GCopper--but, it's better pChop a Forest that we won't chop for a while in order to get in a Worker action than not to get one in at all). Worker 4 would have started on the Cottage on the next turn, still completing it in 3 turns, completing it at the same time as had he been there right from the starting turn.

It might be possible to build 2 or 3 Flood Plains Cottages before working on the Stone--you'll have to play around with the timing and figure out when you'll be whipping the Granary to know for certain.

If you have "some time to kill," for example, you could do something tricky, like: Completely Cottage the Flood Plains 1SE of Stone City (1W of the Stone), so that the City will be working a Cottage ASAP. Then, pCottage the Flood Plains square W + W of the Stone, "on your way" to the Flood Plains square W + W + W + W of the Stone. Then, work on or complete the W + W + W + W Flood Plains Cottage with however many Workers you sent that way, then pCottage on the W + W Flood Plains square "on the way back" and then work on the Stone's Road and Quarry. That way, you'd have 2 Cottages complete and you wouldn't lose Worker turns to Worker movement.


Riverdale should just keep building the Granary until it gets whipped, and then we'll have to decide if we should whip into the Library or into the Temple, based on overflow values, etc. Then we should decide if we will whip the Temple into the Library. So, there are indeed some details that need to be solidified.


Some testing should be done to figure out ideal whipping times--Mitchum has some info on the subject that can prove useful.
 
Great job, Dhoomstriker. With Zara having Stonehenge (I'll add it via WB on the appropriate turn), the culture pressure on Riverdale is going to be HUGE, especially 1000 years from now.

My Buffy log can be found here: C:\Program Files\2K Games\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4 Complete\Beyond the Sword\Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Autolog Yours should be similar. They moved it from My Documents to Program Files for some reason...

I'll create a test save as soon as I'm able (hopefully later tonight once the kids are asleep).
 
Stonehenge
Spoiler :
Great job, Dhoomstriker. With Zara having Stonehenge (I'll add it via WB on the appropriate turn), the culture pressure on Riverdale is going to be HUGE, especially 1000 years from now.
If we manage to beat him to the Wheat location, and can keep whipping Cultural buildings in Riverdale while working Cottages, then it will have been worth it.


Finding the BUFFY Autolog
Spoiler :
My Buffy log can be found here: C:\Program Files\2K Games\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4 Complete\Beyond the Sword\Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Autolog Yours should be similar. They moved it from My Documents to Program Files for some reason...
Yeah, that helps, thanks!

Weird, the info in this autolog doesn't contain all of the info from the game server's Autolog. I guess I'll just keep both of them intact, instead of replacing one with the other. Note that I only have one for this turnset, not for the first couple of turns that I played.



My BUFFY Autolog
Spoiler :
Turn 92/750 (1700 BC)

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 20 per turn", 19 in the bank

After End Turn:
Delhi grows to size 7

Turn 93/750 (1675 BC)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 18 per turn", 39 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Delhi
Delhi finishes: Library

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Gandhi(India) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 94/750 (1650 BC)
Delhi begins: Hindu Temple (7 turns)
100% Research: 29 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn", 57 in the bank

After End Turn:
Riverdale grows to size 2

Turn 95/750 (1625 BC)
100% Research: 30 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -9 per turn", 49 in the bank

After End Turn:
Delhi finishes: Hindu Temple

Turn 96/750 (1600 BC)
Delhi begins: Fast Worker (5 turns)
100% Research: 29 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn", 40 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Riverdale
Riverdale finishes: Monument

Other Player Actions:
State Religion Change: Gandhi (India) from 'Hinduism' to 'Confucianism'
Attitude Change: Zara Yaqob (Ethiopia) towards Gandhi (India)", from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 97/750 (1575 BC)
Riverdale begins: Confucian Temple (60 turns)
100% Research: 29 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn", 32 in the bank

Turn 98/750 (1550 BC)
100% Research: 29 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -6 per turn", 24 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: The Wheel
Riverdale's borders expand

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Zara Yaqob (Ethiopia) towards Gandhi (India)", from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Gandhi(India) from 'Slavery' to 'Tribalism'
Civics Change: Gandhi(India) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Paganism'

Turn 99/750 (1525 BC)
Research begun: Pottery (5 Turns)
Confucianism has spread: Delhi
100% Research: 28 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -5 per turn", 18 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Confucianism has spread: Aksum (Ethiopian Empire)
Attitude Change: Zara Yaqob (Ethiopia) towards Gandhi (India)", from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 100/750 (1500 BC)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 20 per turn", 13 in the bank

After End Turn:
Delhi finishes: Fast Worker

Other Player Actions:
State Religion Change: Zara Yaqob (Ethiopia) from 'no State Religion' to 'Confucianism'

Turn 101/750 (1475 BC)
Delhi begins: Warrior (3 turns)
A Farm was built near Riverdale
100% Research: 29 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -7 per turn", 33 in the bank

After End Turn:
Silverado finishes: Fast Worker

Other Player Actions:
State Religion Change: Gandhi (India) from 'Confucianism' to 'no State Religion'

Turn 102/750 (1450 BC)
Silverado begins: Courthouse (45 turns)
100% Research: 29 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn", 26 in the bank

After End Turn:
Delhi grows to size 6
Delhi finishes: Warrior

Turn 103/750 (1425 BC)
Delhi begins: Settler (8 turns)
100% Research: 30 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -9 per turn", 18 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild", Warrior 3 (Delhi) (0.32/2) defeats Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 98.8%)

Turn 104/750 (1400 BC)
100% Research: 29 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn", 9 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Pottery
Delhi's borders expand

Turn 105/750 (1375 BC)
Research begun: Meditation (5 Turns)
Silverado begins: Granary (23 turns)
Riverdale begins: Granary (90 turns)
 
Yep I'm looking forward to seeing the turnset too... On the whole, it felt so optimised that I'd dare not change a single step :)
Lol! I set myself up with high expectations from the team, so I felt that I was required to deliver a solid performance.


Extra Specialists
Spoiler :
Just on the great person debate, to increase the options a bit we could consider running more specialists. So, for instance, running both scientists and the priest for great person #2 straight after the pyramids, or switching to cast system to run a very large number of scientists for great person #3. We certainly have the food to do it. It will hurt production of course, which may not be acceptable given how unproductive sliverside and riverdale are, but it would speed up both great people and increase our chances of getting a scientist second (if we get a prophet first).
Very true!

Not only can we get our 2nd Great Person faster, but we could increase the odds of getting a Great Prophet by initially running 2 Scientists + 1 Priest and later 2 Priests + 0 Scientists, once the Confucian Temple is built.


Caste System can be the way to get a Great Scientist as our 3rd Great Person. Nothing's guaranteed, but at least we'd learn very soon whether or not we got a Great Scientist, so we could determine if we'll have to manually chase after Philosophy. Or perhaps choose to mess up our production and Cottage-growth even further in favour of pursuing a 4th Great Person right afterwards in Delhi????? Hopefully, we won't be so unlucky with Great People as to need to chase after a 4th one, but it may happen that we will feel forced into that situation, so we'd best mentally prepare for it.

The one saving grace is that we'd be using Representation-enhanced Specialists. Well, let's hope that we can get The Pyramids. :crazyeye:
 
Great job Dhoom!

The Barb situation at Riverdale is a little worrisome. I agree that the chances are slim that we will lose the city, but if we lose it we are in deep trouble. We will also have to update our strategy (not that I think we will have any chance left. Losing a city this early surely means a delay in the win date). This is why I recommend that we find out what happens on the Riverdale front ASAP, before starting to plan&test too much.
 
I wonder why Zara is not going for the wheat location. Saying that the AI is poorly programmed is an understatement....

Anyway, looking at the images it appears that our continent is pretty small. But there is definitely another continent\island with-in WB distance. I wonder if it is a continent or an island (or group of islands). If it is island\group then it will be isolated too and will not get Budha as well. Does that matter for our strategy?
 
Wheat City
Spoiler :
I wonder why Zara is not going for the wheat location. Saying that the AI is poorly programmed is an understatement....
The Wheat area is "too far" for Zara to settle as his second City. The Wheat location also is not "valuable enough" to exceed Zara's proximity programming.

The Map Designers have to take some responsibility here, by setting up such a large Desert next to Zara. It's as if they wanted to give teams a fighting chance to go for the Wheat City, in exchange for having to grab the juicier western Cities later.

As for where we will settle, it should be noted that my previous analysis of the PHFor location and the square 1E of it DID NOT take into account the extra Food that we'd get from irrigating a PFor square and irrigating the PWheat square, as I hadn't though of settling in the Desert in order to provide irrigation to the north via the City square.

So, overall, the two locations are about equal at the top size, but the 1N of the Oasis location benefits more than the PHFor location by being able to grow that much faster and eventually work one more PHMine. The PHFor location didn't have enough Food to work enough PHMines, so we "didn't care" that we were wasting its potential production by sitting on one of the PHFor squares, but the 1N of the Oasis location can actually use that extra PHFor, giving us stronger production in the long-term.


I'd still be okay with settling on the PHFor square, but doing so will take 1 extra turn unless we plan to build more than 2 pieces of Road towards the Wheat City, while 2 pieces of Road will be enough to settle the 1N of the Oasis location on Settler 5's 3rd turn of existence.

Note that I only found time to build 2 pieces of Road, since the Workers were otherwise busy making Cottages for Stone City, Roading and Quarrying the Stone, and pre-chopping Forests, but with some planning, you might be able to fit in more Roading towards the Wheat City location if you are deadset on settling on the PHFor.


The PHFor does net us one extra Hammer early on, but since we'll get Civil Service soon, the 1N of the Oasis location is going to be better for whipping and growing. Neither location can grow much beyond Size 10, so the Desert squares that either City gets don't even factor into the decision at all.


That 1 extra turn that it takes to get to the PHFor location may or may not make a difference in beating Zara. That said, be sure to fire the Priest in Delhi once our Great Prophet is in, which will probably save us 1 turn on completing Settler 5, although feel free to re-hire the Priest partway through completing Settler 5 in your test games, if re-hiring him won't affect our Settler 5's date of completion.



Isolated from Other AIs? Not Isolated? Buddhism or Not? The Answers are here!
Spoiler :
Anyway, looking at the images it appears that our continent is pretty small. But there is definitely another continent\island with-in WB distance. I wonder if it is a continent or an island (or group of islands). If it is island\group then it will be isolated too and will not get Budha as well. Does that matter for our strategy?
It depends upon how isolated we are.

If most of the AIs cannot be reached by us anytime soon, then we'll later do our best to spam Cities when Astronomy is in and pick up Buddhism that way, knowing that most of the world will be Buddhist.

If most of the AIs can be reached by us pre-Astronomy and none of them are Buddhist, then we'll aim to SLOWLY, CAREFULLY, Open Borders with them one at a time, spreading the same religion (not Confucianism) to all of them. We'll still set Zara up as their hated Enemy and the Buddhist 1 to 2 AIs can rot for all that we care. We can't count on one of the Buddist AIs in that scenario being #2 or #1 in population, thus we must rely on gifting The United Nations, and Zara is our easiest target, while we'd only pick another target if we had had a successful war--which is fine to do, but we should still keep Zara open as our backup with him in a different Religion from everyone else.

If we can meet the Buddhist AI, then we'll just go with our plan of keeping borders Closed as much as we can until we can get a Settler or two on a Galley, then go "Buddhism hunting" under the "No State Religion" guise of pretending not to be Buddhist Heathens. We'll just have to spam Cities until we get the religion and then will have to switch into Organized Religion (even if most of our empire can't benefit from that Civic), in order to be able to build a Buddhist Missionary immediately upon learning Buddhism.

We may or may not convert to Buddhism immediately, possibly depending upon how our Cultural War in Riverdale is doing.


Domestic spread of Buddhism happens first, then we create 2 to 3 Buddhist Missionaries and send Galleys with them (and a Settler just in case we find a nice spot, why not?) inside, actively hunting for AIs instead of hiding from them, then giving them Buddhism in their religionless Cities. We will keep spreading more Buddhist Missionaries to them until they convert.

If we meet an AI that is running Theocracy and has picked up one of our religions, we may have a tougher time of it. A test game can validate that if we gift a Buddhist Missionary to that AI when it is standing over a religionless City whether or not the AI will spread Buddhism (sometimes it works, sometimes the AI just hangs onto the Missionary forever--this difference could be version-related Vanialla vs Warlords vs BTS, could be situation-related (having tried to give them a Missionary in a City where they already have a religion and don't want another), could be AI-Leader-related, or some other factor, but hopefully a test game will tell us if this idea will work). If it won't work, then we may have our work cut out for ourselves, say, having to use Espionage to switch them out of Theocracy or something.

Thus, hanging onto Theology (which enables Theocracy) could be something that we will need to do.

Plus, we don't want the chance of AIs building the Apostolic Palace, so we'll be hoarding Theology to ourselves.

Once the next AI that we find is converted to Buddhism, then we resume our exploration with new Galleys filled with Buddhist Missionaries--but not before then. We don't want to go meeting the hornets until we are ready to spread the word to them.
 
Dhoom, I see your strategy is well designed.

But how do we handle the following scenario:

There are two land-blocks (i.e. patches of land that can be connected pre-Astronomy).
One has 4 civs (we are in this group),
and the other have 3 which are Budha.

Our block will surely pick a religion, probably confus since that one already spread outside, will spread at Zara and then off to his other friend...
When Astronomy will come in we will have 4 confused and 3 budhist. Trouble.
 
More on Religious-Diplo Strategy
Spoiler :
Dhoom, I see your strategy is well designed.

But how do we handle the following scenario:

There are two land-blocks (i.e. patches of land that can be connected pre-Astronomy).
One has 4 civs (we are in this group),
and the other have 3 which are Budha.

Our block will surely pick a religion, probably confus since that one already spread outside, will spread at Zara and then off to his other friend...
When Astronomy will come in we will have 4 confused and 3 budhist. Trouble.

Okay, I see that you are bound and determined to try and find a worst-case scenario and see how badly you can mess up our strategy. Okay, I'll try and come up with an answer...

The situation that you describe is actually not too bad. If Confucianism spreads via Zara, at least then it will be a single, uniting religion.

Then, we'll just have to pick sides.

In the situation that you describe, since we have so many AIs that are Confucianist, we may try and convert the other parts of the world to this religion.

Since an AI is far less likely to spread a religion via Missionaries to its neighbours if it doesn't own the Holy City, we will simply spread Confucianism to the non-Holy-City owner and beg like crazy for them to switch to Confucianism. We'll need to maximize their Confucian population, which might even mean building them an off-continent City, putting Confucianism in it, and gifting them the City, if they will take it. That City wouldn't get the Buddhist Holy City's owner spreading Buddhism to it, so our target Civ would have "more Confucian influence than Buddhist influence," even if all of its on-continent Cities have both religions. Plus, with more of the world in the Confucian Relgion, he'll be more likely to switch over.

At that point, we'd just need to decide if the largest population AI (who will likely be Confucian in a worst-case scenario) is well-liked enough to be voted for by some of our Confucian buddies. If he is, then we'll either have to do our best to convert this AI to a different religion or else we'll have to pick someone other than Zara to gift the United Nations to, someone who is not well-liked and preferably is a smaller-sized AI. Without a war declaration, gifting The United Nations to someone else would require TWO Great Engineers, not just 1, as the size of the City that we gift would be Size 1.


However, more realistically, in this worst-case situation that you have devised for us, we'll get some nearby AIs grabbing different religions and not all uniting under the Confucian banner.

So, we'll simply stick to our original plan of grabbing Buddhism. 3 Buddhist AIs are alreeady a lot... if we convert even 1 more AI to Buddhism and then gift The United Nations to Zara, we are done.

In fact, probably instead of messing around with Confucianism in the above scenario, we should just stick to the plan and go for Buddhism as soon as we possibly can get it. The worst case scenario would be that we can't obtain Buddhism at all without a war, so we'll have to grab it via a war, angering all of the Buddhist AIs.

If we do go to war, then we could aim to grab the Buddhist Holy City and then convert as many of those AIs as possible to Confucianism. Or we could even trade a couple of high-priced techs, like Philosophy, only to our war target (probably the dude or lady who founded Buddhism). Then, after declaring war, we might have 2 other AIs bribed into war against us. Free war declarations for us!

We'll just need to switch into Police State and Theocracy, mobilize the troops, and start capturing (or heck, even razing) Cities on the Buddhist continent. As long as each of the Buddhists have a COUPLE of Cities each, they won't die. Even if the other AIs come in and fill some of those locations with Galleon-based Settlers, we'll be fine with that, since they'll be AIs without a Holy City and thus we'll eventually get them all under the same Religious banner (which will likely not be Buddhism anymore, since we started razing Buddhist Cities, but instead we would pick a Religion that many others already share).

We'll still have to figure out when and where to gift the UN, but with 3 AIs at war with us, we can probably pick one of their larger Cities and build it there, giving it back to them once those 3 AIs have been sufficiently weakened.

Probably, in such a war against 3 AIs, our best strategy will be to raze as many of their Coastal Cities as we can, land-locking them. None of those AIs will vote for us anymore, so the more land that we can "free up" for other AIs to come and settle, the better.


Another alternative would be to hope that one of those Buddhist AIs is a warmongeror and then refuse their demands and try and convince that one AI to declare war on us. We'll be nice to the other two, but if we can get one of them to declare war on us, then we'll be able to capture Buddhism and execute our spread-Buddhism-to-the-world (except for Zara) strategy.


Basically, there are always ways to handle any situation that is thrown our way. However, our medium term goal should be to get our economy intact (via Cottages) and then send out a Settler + Galley party or two in search of Buddhism.

If we can't find Buddhism, then maybe we'll be able to sneak a City onto one of the nearby landmasses, to help ensure that we become the #1 Civ in terms of Population. We currently see a landmass to the north and one to the east of Zara. Land can also snake down south-east of Zara and towards the east. So there are currently lots of directions that could offer us a connection to Buddhism.
 
Here is the test save.

Notes:

1. I couldn't beg for clams on T100, but was able to do so on T101.
2. Warrior 3 has been wounded, but not as much as in the real game (0.7/2 vs. 1.3/2).
3. 4 forests have been identified for the 'Mids. We MAY need one more, depending on how many it takes to chop. Dhoomstriker used 5, but gave us some ideas of how to save 1 by using overflow whipping.
4. I moved Warrior 7 inside our cultural borders already by mistake. I would have had to re-do a TON of WB stuff, so I left him there. Dhoomstriker, I assume that you would have moved him into our borders on this turn anyway, because he has a movement point left, right?

Happy testing!

EDIT: Re-uploaded save with proper chopable forests identified.
 

Attachments

Accidentally pressing Enter when all units have moved simply removes the chance to make changes on the current turn--but what would we even change? Probably not much, except for maybe Silverado's Granary could become a Worker or a Settler...
Spoiler :
4. I moved Warrior 7 inside our cultural borders already... Dhoomstriker, I assume that you would have moved him into our borders on this turn anyway, because he has a movement point left, right?
Absolutely correct! We don't need this "extra level of safety" in our test saved game, because you're allowed to make a mistake in the test game and reload it as much as you want to. Warrior 7's remaining movement point was only to keep the end of my last turn (Turn 105) "active," without having the "Press Enter to end the turn" blinking text that could accidentally make us end the turn too soon.

Most things should be fine, but there's a chance that we won't need the Granary in Silverado next. The only other thing that I could see building in its place would be a Worker, since we won't worry about losing the Organized Religion bonus when building a Worker. It'll depend upon how far we play... once Math is in, we might or might not need the Corn in Delhi for Specialists and the Silver to keep us on track to manually researching the remaining portion of Civil Service... or we might not need that Corn in Delhi immediately and can let Silverado borrow it.

Or else we'll wait for Silverado to borrow it after we complete Civil Service or even the Alphabet.

The goal will be to have the Granary complete or at least mostly complete by the time that we want to switch the Silver to Delhi's Corn. We'd want the Granary to be complete before we have half of Silverado's Food box filled up.

Anytime before then, completing the Granary can be considered to be "unnecessarily early, but better than completing it later than that point." So, if we are going to delay growing Silverado for a long time, another Worker (or even a Settler that takes around 40 turns, sigh, to complete) could be slotted in, depending upon when we plan to grow Silverado.

Once Silverado has grown to Size 3, Delhi can have its Corn back. So, there must be a period of time where Delihi can do without its Corn and we can do without Silverado's Silver-Science-boost.



Forests and their Signs
Spoiler :
3. 4 forests have been identified for the 'Mids. We MAY need one more, depending on how many it takes to chop. Dhoomstriker used 5, but gave us some ideas of how to save 1 by using overflow whipping.
I haven't looked at which Forests you chose, but if there was 1 of the 5 Forests that I would want to chop the least, it would be the western-most one or else the northern-most one, since either one of those still has a chance of encouraging Forest regrowth.

Still, I'd rather chop both of those 2 Forests before chopping any of the other Forests that I didn't mark as part of the "Fantastic 5."

The other three Forests are currently "unproductive" in terms of Forest regrowth, as they are all surrounded by existing Forests or other squares that cannot get a Forest growing there (such as an Improved Resource like that GHRiv Mine).


Also, if we are going to earmark 2 Forests for the Library in Riverdale, I'd suggest chopping these ones, in the following order of chopping preference:
1. 1N of Riverdale (if we can ever get it into our cultural borders, so we can't count on getting it)
2. NW + N of Riverdale
3. W + W of Riverdale

Feel free to adjust your map with appropriate signs and reupload it, as it doesn't look like anyone has downloaded it yet (unless they downloaded it while I was writing this message, lol).



Here is the test save... Happy testing!
Thanks for all of your hard work in setting up the test games!
 
Also, if we are going to earmark 2 Forests for the Library in Riverdale, I'd suggest chopping these ones, in the following order of chopping preference:
1. 1N of Riverdale (if we can ever get it into our cultural borders, so we can't count on getting it)
2. NW + N of Riverdale
3. W + W of Riverdale

I agree with 1 and 2, but why the forest W + W? The one W of Riverdale has already been pre-chopped for 3 turns. Also, the forest W + W is currently providing 3 forests regrowth opportunities (N, W and S) and will provide a regrowth opportunty east of it if we chop that forest (1W of Riverdale).

EDIT: I've re-uploaded the save. I identified the forest W of Riverdale as choppable rather than the one W + W for now.
 
FYI, I will be on vactation until Monday , so I will have very limited time to support this game after tonight.

Irgy, since you're the up player, you have a lot of recommendations from Dhoomstriker to read, digest and test. I suggest that you play a test game until T135 and compare your save to Dhoomstriker's (he posted a test save several posts ago). He admitted that he had not yet optimized this part of the game, so you may be able to do better by a turn or two. If you're not able to match his date, ask questions and hopefully he'll be able to provide additional details.

I'll do my best to read the thread and provide input while I'm away. If you don't hear from me and the team agrees to your PPP, feel free to play after 24 hours has passed.
 
I agree with 1 and 2, but why the forest W + W? The one W of Riverdale has already been pre-chopped for 3 turns. Also, the forest W + W is currently providing 3 forests regrowth opportunities (N, W and S) and will provide a regrowth opportunty east of it if we chop that forest (1W of Riverdale).
Well, that's why we're chopping the Forest 1W first--because the one W + W is better to save for a longer time period.

But the plan was to chop the 1W Forest into the Granary pre-Math, then complete the Granary by whipping it, so as to get a headstart on Granary-enchanced growth in Riverdale. We'd only complete this chopping and whipping after switching back into Organized Religion + Slavery + Confucianism, which will happen around the time that we switch from Settler 5 -> Granary in Delhi.


Thus, the Forest 1W will already be gone when it comes time to chopping the Library with two after-Math Forests.
 
Thanks for your effort with the test game Mitchum, have a good holiday whereever it is you're going :)

I've got to go to work in a minute, but I should have some spare time when I get back this afternoon to play the test save through. I'll play it through until the pyramids are built, but I'll only write down every tiny detail for up to turn 120 as that's my turn set. I'll post the overall results though.
 
Ok, so here's what I'm doing so far. A couple of details left out, but it's getting close.

105: Warrior 7 wanders off to the NE desert
106: Worker 1 mucks around near stone city fogbusting. I had it spend a couple of turns chopping even.
107: Research up to full pace. Dehli switches to work the new cottage.
108: Worker 4 roads the copper (then continues roading to stone city), worker 3 goes NE and chops a turn for the sake of it.
109: Worker 4 walks N and starts a road to the NE.
110: Riverdale switches to work the new cottage.
112: Meditation complete. Turn the research slider back down to 0 and switch to Math. Settler complete, switched to granary, although I think I plan to build another settler instead next time, as the granary was not useful and the settler is needed to secure the wheat city. Worker 1 moves to help finish the road for the settler, and the settler then does the fogbusting for a turn instead.
113: Settle stone city. Great priest pops Christianity. Two workers start on a floodplains cottage for stone city.
114: By now the warrior had arrived in the NE, so I shuffled the warriors about to put one in the stone city while keeping everywhere fogbusted. I started working a scientist in Dehli here.
116: Confucianism, slavery, OR, whip granary.
117: Workers start on a quarry
120: Research back up to 100% to get Math in 10 turns (earlier than needed).
122: I lost the Wheat city to Zara, but might not with a granary.
The Pyramids were built on turn 134, with the 5 chops marked by Dhoomstriker.

Reading back a bit again I realise that another settler was indeed the plan when the current one finishes, and this works out well with OR. I'll see if I have time for a better run later tonight.
 
Ok, so here's what I'm doing so far. A couple of details left out, but it's getting close.

105: Warrior 7 wanders off to the NE desert
106: Worker 1 mucks around near stone city fogbusting. I had it spend a couple of turns chopping even.

I don't have time to comment on the whole thing, but it's very important that either worker 1 or warrior 7 spawn busts the entire west. There is a dead spot not covered by warriors 1 and 2, so be careful.

Yes, Delhi should go settler -> settler -> granary. Don't forget to switch to Confucianism and OR any time you're building a building in Delhi or chopping in Riverdale.
 
I see you settling Stoney and building the quarry but I don't see the switch to Christ to pop the borders. That switch to Confus on T116 would stop culture growth (assuming no religion until then) in Stoney since its only culture is coming from being the holy city in a country with no state religion.
 
I see you settling Stoney and building the quarry but I don't see the switch to Christ to pop the borders. That switch to Confus on T116 would stop culture growth (assuming no religion until then) in Stoney since its only culture is coming from being the holy city in a country with no state religion.

There's no state religeon that whole time, when I switch to Confu it's from nothing. So there's always culture there.


I've done another run, this one basically looks right. The only drama is on turn 117 I had to whip the settler, as Zara had his own on the way and it wouldn't have been ready in time. This sent things in a bit of a spin, and the pyramids were late. I'll have a look at ways of getting the settler out earlier, still getting Math in time, and getting enough hammers in the 'mids. It might be worth an extra chop if we need to hurry the settler in the real game. I've written everything down, I'll post it all up later as it's very late here.
 
Back
Top Bottom