SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

@ BLubmuz

Silverado must work the silver for the next 30 turns or so, or else Math and the Pyramids will be delayed. I agree that having a city at size 1 for so long typically isn't the best thing to do, but it's really our only option at the moment. Since Silverado is stuck at 1 pop for at least 30 turns, building a settler next is probably the best use of this city. Doing so frees up Delhi to do other things, like building an aquaduct and the Hanging Gardens (giving Silverado a free citizen...) or focusing on great person production for quicker Philosphy and Civil Service.
 
I don't disagree with this idea but like all other ideas, I would like to see some testing before I agree to it. How many turns would it take to grow? I ask because it means not working the silver for those turns and this will delay techs and the 'mids. Without a couple tests, I wouldn't want to chance all of our planning. I'll be glad to run a few tests like this but it will be a couple days before I can do that.

@ BLubmuz

Silverado must work the silver for the next 30 turns or so, or else Math and the Pyramids will be delayed. I agree that having a city at size 1 for so long typically isn't the best thing to do, but it's really our only option at the moment. Since Silverado is stuck at 1 pop for at least 30 turns, building a settler next is probably the best use of this city. Doing so frees up Delhi to do other things, like building an aquaduct and the Hanging Gardens (giving Silverado a free citizen...) or focusing on great person production for quicker Philosphy and Civil Service.
I see your points, but we don't need many tests. Just open a save and see how many turns Silverado needs to grow working the corn instead of the silver. From memory, i can say 7 turns.
After that it can work the Silver again and a GLForest or a freshwater tile. In case we still lack Fishing, i think we must research it and build a WB in Silverado while growing, then we can build the settler there. Or start the settler, research Fishing, grow with the WB, back to the settler.
I think we need to send a WB west. We can't continue playing ignoring who our opponents are.

BTW, Tata is cancelled from our roster.
 
Building a Settler in Silverado
Spoiler :
BLubmuz said:
Why not steal a corn from Dehli, grow to 2 while building a granary or anything, then switch to a settler?
Part of the reason is that doing so will not noticeably speed up the production of the Settler.

What square would we work at Size 2? A GFor for 2 Food + 1 Hammer and the PHRiv Silver? That would net us 1 extra Hammer per turn, at the cost of greatly delaying the Settler and somehow having to build the Granary first, too. If we don't build the Granary first, then growing just to work a 3 (Food + Hammers) square is a very wasteful approach, instead of just a somewhat-wasteful approach.

Maybe a Lake? Well, we won't yet have Fishing, but assuming that we did, that would be 2 Food + 2 Commerce, which would not speed up the Settler production at all. We'd of course delay the Settler's date by exactly the number of turns we would spend on buildng other things (a Granary, and whatever else after the Granary that we build while growing), while it would still take us the exact same number of turns to complete the Settler.


The whole point of suggesting a Settler now is that we will be delaying growth in Silverado in order to work the Silver Resource for a long time to come, anyway. Producing the Granary but not growing afterwards, which was our current plan, doesn't offer much in the way of benefit to our empire.

What Unclethrill is saying is that we CANNOT afford to switch away from the Silver Resource anytime soon, in terms of our research rate, thus it will be a long time before we are actually able to switch away from the Silver Resource.


Yes, eventually we want to make Silverado a good City.

Yes, once we have Hunting, Fishing, and Sailing, Silverado will be able to grow and build better buildings (a Lighthouse and Moai Statues). Yet, until that time, there's not much better for the City to do.

A Courthouse won't even be worthwhile at Size 1, anyway, so that building a Courthouse is a bust--I only started to build it because we had "nothing better to build" while waiting for the Granary. Yet, after doing the calculations related to the Granary, we'll end up building it way too soon, as well, making the act of building it immediately not being of much use.

There would be ZERO sense in building a Granary and then building a Settler immediately aftwards, as if we build a Granary, we'll want to complete it before we grow to Size 2, in order to make use of the Granary's effects, so we'd still be at Size 1 if we went for a Settler right after a Granary. All that we'd accomplish with this approach would be to get the identical benefit from our Granary while losing out on time that we could have settled a new City with the Settler.


Delhi also needs that Corn for the foreseeable near future, in order to:
a) Get our Settlers out ASAP
b) Regrow after whipping the Granary
c) Feed multiple Specialists, especially when we switch into Caste System for our hoped-for Great Scientist as our 3rd Great Person


Note that the Granary has 0 Hammers invested into it, as I just switched to building it on the same turn that Irgy will start his turnset. So, switching away from the Granary now is a good time to do so in terms of not worrying about potential loss of invested Hammers in the Granary (since there are no such invested Hammers in the Granary).

As for the Courthouse, I believe that we built it for a total of 3 turns. At 4 Hammers per turn, without us netting any benefit from Organized Religion, that's 3 * 4 = 12 Hammers invested.

A building's Hammers decay at a rate of 1 Hammer per Turn after 60 turns have passed * 1.5 for Epic = 90 turns. Add to that number 1 turn for every turn where we complete a build item and have the Courthouse queued after that item.

So, instead of putting the following in the queue:
Settler -> Granary -> Courthouse

we can put the following items in the queue:
Settler -> Courthouse

That way, we will get at least 91 turns before the Courthouse's Hammers expire, and we can still put it in Mitchum's PPP to add a Granary to the Build Queue on the turn that the Settler is complete, such that 0 further Hammers will need to be invested into the Courthouse--we'll just leverage the game's "checking mechanism" of checking at the start of the turn for whether or not to subtract Hammers from a partially-built item in the build queue not being the "next item," while the Hammers for a turn actually won't be added until the end of the turn. For every other item that we build before the Courthouse using this technique, we'll add 1 more turn to that 91 turns of delay before Hammer decay occurs.

Even if Irgy leaves the Granary in the build queue, as long as we take it out of the build queue before the Settler is complete, we will still get that 1 extra turn on top of the 90 turns before the Hammers decay, so I don't even worry about how he queues up the items, as the queue order won't even matter for a couple of turnsets anyway, as long as the Settler is the item currently being built.


I can see a case being made for not building a Settler there now, building the Granary to completion, and then sometime later, well after the 23 turns that it will take to build the Granary, growing to Size 2. In this way, we might grow to Size 2 marginally quicker.

It's just that we gain a greater opportunity to grab another City when our empire can afford to do so if we build that Settler starting now, whereas we hardly gain anything by getting the Granary first and what we do gain can't be made up for if we have to either:
a) Lose a City location to Zara
OR
b) Lose Trade Routes with Zara by Closing Borders with him
 
This is how i see it for Silverado:
Start a settler working the corn
After Pottery, start Fishing, it should need 1-2 turns.
Once we have fishing, start a WB in Silverado, stealing the corn from Dehli.
Once grew to 2, finish the WB working the silver and the 2F+1H tile, then go back to the settler.

It's not only a question of the speed of the settler, which i agree we delay, is a question to build a WB. Also, with a city at size 1, forced to work our only commerce tile we risk to have built it very soon but that it will never be productive.

True, we can build the WB in Stony, but my main point is to grow that poor city sacrificing some research for the 6-7 turns needed to grow. We must do it, sooner or later. Better sooner, IMHO.

Considr it an investment: you spend something now (the lack of research) to have something more later.
 
Quick results of a test for BLubmuz.

If we move Delhi from the corn to the farm 1SE (IIRC) delays the settler 1 turn from 7 to 8 turns to build.
If we then move off the silver to the corn in silverado, it will grow in 6 turns but will lose 5 commerce for each of those turns.
After growth, we can move the corn back to Delhi and let Silverado work the farm that Delhi was working. That farm gives it 3 food 1 commerce.

The bottom line is that we would be able to gain 1 commerce per turn after growth at a cost of 30 commerce up front. Working that farm would grow silverado to 3 in 33 turns. Thus we would break even commerce wise in 30 turns and the city would be able to begin its slow growth.

This will slow down current research and would delay our plan for the 'mids. I agree that we need to grow silverado but we can't really afford the tech delay right now, i don't think.
 
We also don't have time to get Fishing before Math. The economy is really struggling at this point, but once we have Math we can build the Pyramids, and between +3 science per specialist and the extra 3 on our happy cap things can really get moving again. After that we can afford to spend time getting hunting, fishing and sailing to rescue Riverdale from its sorry state. Even then we're probably better of getting Civil Service first, and Alphabet to trade for fishing and hunting instead of researching them ourselves (if Zara doesn't have it by then).

The current plans have us just barely scraping our way through to Math. Another tech, even a small one, would be a big enough delay that we might miss the pyramids completely.
 
So other than this debate about the settler in Riverdale, I take it I'm ready to go? I won't have time for another 12 hours or so anyway, maybe that will give us time to resolve this. It looks like a majority vote would say build a settler, so the only reason not to is to give BLubmuz a bit more of a chance to convince us otherwise.
 
PPP Comments
108: Research 100%. Riverdale second citizen to grass river. Worker 3 road copper. Worker 4 walk N-N-NE to gfHill (via Dehli and corn). Worker 1 1W chop prForest.
I think that you should swap the text "Worker 3" with "Worker 4" in the above line, as it appears that all later actions co-incide with Worker 4 being the one to Road the Copper and Worker 3 being the one to go to the GHFor NE + N of Delhi.

108: Swap warriors 7 & 8, walk warrior 8 NW-N to plains forest.
Be sure to send Warrior 7 into Delhi before moving Warrior 8. But, if you want to move Warrior 8 first, you'll just have to remember that the Priest will get fired (due to temporary unhappiness from having 0 Warriors in Delhi) and you'll manually have to go into Delhi and switch the PHRiv Mine back to the Priest. Clearly, it would be easier to avoid forgetting about the Priest rehiring if you move Warrior 7 first (which might have already been your plan--I'm just pointing it out if it wasn't).

Nice work on where to move Warrior 8, though, with the double-movement plus avoiding messing up Forest-regrowth in a situation where moving NW then N is equal to NW then NW.


109: ...Worker 4 E and build road on corn.
Nice work here, in finding this gain in overall efficiency, by allowing us to get all 3 Workers to the Flood Plains Cottage on the first turn possible!


110: Warrior 8 is now fogbusting.
I'm not sure where you're planning on putting him next, but as you'll see later in my comments, it might make sense to move him towards the PFor W + W + W of the Stone.


113: Research 0%. Fire priest in Dehli (replace with phMine). Settle stone city.
Probably add in a point after settling Stone City that we should build a Granary there.


DISCUSSION POINT:
113: ...Move Christian missionary to explore Zara's land
I noticed that once Settler 5 (Wheat City's Settler) is built, having the Christian Missionary alive will cost us 1 Gold per Turn for 2 turns. Do we care about this cost of 2 Gold? Warrior 5 can just as easily move 1E onto the GCow into Zara's borders, see what Zara has in his captiol, and them move back 1W into Riverdale on each turn that we want to check if Zara has built a Settler.


113: ...Move warriors away from stone city to better fogbusting positions (warrior 8 can settle on stone city).
I am guessing that you are planning to push Warrior 1 out 1W of the Marble, to prevent Barb City growth to the west, right? That'll be a good move... if later, you find that you can't afford to keep other units, such as the Christian Missionary, outside of our borders without costing us 1 Gold per Turn, you can always retreat Warrior 1 back within our borders to his previous spawn-busting position on the Marble.

Instead of sending Warrior 8 to Stone City at this point, now might be a good time to send him SW a bit. If you keep our Christian Missionary within our borders for the next few turns (or if you plan to spread the Christian Missionary's religion in Delhi), then we can afford to send Warrior 8 outside of our borders for a couple of turns. So, if you plan to have Warrior 8 on the PForRiv W + W + W of the Stone by this point, you can move Warrior 8 1SW onto the Flood Plains S + S + S of the Marble and you can safely send Warrior 2 to the west to explore the Coast. After that, you can bring Warrior 2 back to his old position and put Warrior 8 defending Stone City. How does that sound?


114: Worker 1* moves 1W and puts a turn into a cottage.
That's actually not going to happen until turn 115.

In fact, all of the Worker actions from here and below in your PPP are delayed by 1 turn.


The implication is that: we cannot whip the Granary in Delhi for 2 population points, as we'll finish the Quarry 1 turn too late.

So, if we want to whip the Granary for 2 population points, we'll need the Quarry finished a bit sooner.

Since, at the point that we could whip the Granary for 2 population points (on Turn 121) or when we could instead whip the Granary for the "ideal" Foodbox time but for only 1 population point on the next turn (on Turn 122), we'll still be at Size 1 in Stone City (3 turns to growth to Size 2 on Turn 121--and thus not needing 2 completed Cottages at this point), let's switch the Worker actions such that we will complete the tasks in the following order:
1. Complete the Cottage 1W of the Stone
2. Complete the Stone's Road and Quarry
3. Do the "partial Cottage trick" on the Flood Plains square 1S of Stone City on the way to completing the Flood Plains Cottage SW + W of Stone City
4. Complete the Flood Plains Cottage SW + W of Stone City
5. In Unclethrill's turnset, we can finish the Flood Plains Cottage 1S of Stone City
 
DISCUSSION POINT:

I noticed that once Settler 5 (Wheat City's Settler) is built, having the Christian Missionary alive will cost us 1 Gold per Turn for 2 turns. Do we care about this cost of 2 Gold? Warrior 5 can just as easily move 1E onto the GCow into Zara's borders, see what Zara has in his captiol, and them move back 1W into Riverdale on each turn that we want to check if Zara has built a Settler.
Actually, it's worse than I thought. Due to the "Gold per Turn" on screen value "not updating correctly" bug that BLubmuz mentioned, I missed the truth of the matter, which is that: every single turn that the Christian Missionary is alive, he costs us 1 Gold per Turn.

Thus, I suggest that we aim to spread him in Delhi almost ASAP. Specifically, give him at least 1 turn of full movement in Delhi before spreading him, such that on the turn you move into Delhi, you end his turn. Then spread him, in order to increase our chances of success, while minimizing our costs by not waiting an extra 5 more turns to spread him.
 
The Naming of Stone City
Spoiler :
Does anyone want to suggest a name for Stone City? It'll be built in Irgy's turnset.
I've heard Stonyville from Havr. Do we like that name? Do we want to pick something else?

Just for fun, I'll throw out a suggestion: Bedrock, as in the hometown of the Flintstones.

That way, we still cover the "stone" part of the name (FlintSTONEs), without creating a name that sounds a bit too similar to the rival City of the Simpsons' hometown, Shelbyville (we don't want to be the "bad guys," do we?). ;)
 
Getting the Science towards Math instead of growing Silverado
Spoiler :
Considr it an investment: you spend something now (the lack of research) to have something more later.
While I see your point, consider that we are already doing something similar:
We are sacrificing Silverado's growth as an investment towards getting Math and The Pyramids sooner. The sooner that we can get those, the sooner that we'll be able to put our tech rate towards getting techs that will make Silverado USEFUL at Size 2 or higher.


Plus, consider the idea of building the following in Delhi:
1. The Pyramids
2. A Confucian Temple (potentially optional) for running another Priest Specialist
3. A Settler (let's fill out the west)
4. An Aqueduct and The Hanging Gardens

Step 4 will give us 1 free population point in Silverado. So, the tradeoff of NOT growing Silverado but instead spending time fully working the Silver means that we can get to The Hanging Gardens faster, which will pay off by giving us the missing population point (The Hanging Gardens = +1 population point in each City).

How's that for a successful investment?
 
@Irgy

What do you plan to do with the promotion for our warrior in the NE? He's pretty wounded now. Giving him a Woody I promotion and fortifying him on the forested hill, he should be safe if a barb happens to spawn on the single un-spawn busted tile in the desert.

Edit: I like Bedrock for Stone City. I also support building a settler now in Silverado, researching Math and building the Pyramids in Delhi per the plan we've been focused on for the last two weeks...
 
Plus, consider the idea of building the following in Delhi:
1. The Pyramids
2. A Confucian Temple (potentially optional) for running another Priest Specialist
3. A Settler (let's fill out the west)
4. An Aqueduct and The Hanging Gardens[/SPOILER]

This looks like a good build queue for Delhi. The settler in Delhi should come out about the same time as the settler in Silverado. We'll also need another worker or two to improve all of the cities we'll soon have.

I'm thinking that we'll hire two priests in Delhi for a quick GPro to bulb Civil Service. Then switch to Caste System and hire as many scientists as we can for the 10 or so turns it takes to get a Great Scientist to bulb Philosophy. Doing this will really slow down Delhi's production though. At least our science rate will be pretty high with Representation-fueled specialists. This will all have to be tested out as our post-Pyramids plan.
 
Test Game Inaccuracy
Spoiler :
What do you plan to do with the promotion for our warrior in the NE? He's pretty wounded now. Giving him a Woody I promotion and fortifying him on the forested hill, he should be safe if a barb happens to spawn on the single un-spawn busted tile in the desert.
Uhhhh... please check out my screenshot of the real game:
Spoiler :
attachment.php


and compare it to the screenshot that you showed us:
Spoiler :
attachment.php


Notice that the square which is not spawn-busted in your screenshot is actually a Coast square in the real game. Irgy already mentioned this fact a few messages back, after I started whining about why we were moving Warriors 3 and 6 around.

Remember that we have 100% spawn-busting coverage, but not 100% Barb-City-fog-busting coverage. So, by standing on the Hills squares, rather than, say, moving 1E, we actually Barb-City-fog-bust more squares.

We have no need to use the Promotion at this point. The good thing about promotions is that using them will not make us lose our Fortification bonus, so "saving" the Promotion until we need it, unless we expect a sneak attack from an AI, is the way to go here.

Since Irgy already brought up the test game inaccuracy, I thought that you'd already picked up on it.
 
I think that you should swap the text "Worker 3" with "Worker 4" in the above line, as it appears that all later actions co-incide with Worker 4 being the one to Road the Copper and Worker 3 being the one to go to the GHFor NE + N of Delhi.

Sorry. I seem to have more trouble with writing the turnset down than anything else. It's clear to me which worker is doing what at least :)

Probably add in a point after settling Stone City that we should build a Granary there.

As above. I've been building that, I'm sure I put it in at least one previous turnset but it got left out.

Actually, it's worse than I thought. Due to the "Gold per Turn" on screen value "not updating correctly" bug that BLubmuz mentioned, I missed the truth of the matter, which is that: every single turn that the Christian Missionary is alive, he costs us 1 Gold per Turn.

Thus, I suggest that we aim to spread him in Delhi almost ASAP. Specifically, give him at least 1 turn of full movement in Delhi before spreading him, such that on the turn you move into Delhi, you end his turn. Then spread him, in order to increase our chances of success, while minimizing our costs by not waiting an extra 5 more turns to spread him.

And we've come full circle to what I suggested in the first place. For what it's worth, unless Zara uses an unusual and sneaky path to the wheat city in the real game we'll spot it from the culture borders of Riverdale, the missionary was mostly just there for want of anything else for it to do. Less gold upkeep from less units sounds more useful to me.

I am guessing that you are planning to push Warrior 1 out 1W of the Marble, to prevent Barb City growth to the west, right? That'll be a good move... if later, you find that you can't afford to keep other units, such as the Christian Missionary, outside of our borders without costing us 1 Gold per Turn, you can always retreat Warrior 1 back within our borders to his previous spawn-busting position on the Marble.

Yep that's where I planned on putting warrior 1. Actually we can consider moving it 2W to cover more barb-galley spawning squares for later on when they start to appear, it just means it will take longer to get it back into culture borders if we need to save gold.

Later as well when Bedrock's and Zara's capital expand culture borders we can shuffle the northeastern warriors further east and ensure everywhere is completely defogged and barb-city-safe.

Instead of sending Warrior 8 to Stone City at this point, now might be a good time to send him SW a bit. If you keep our Christian Missionary within our borders for the next few turns (or if you plan to spread the Christian Missionary's religion in Delhi), then we can afford to send Warrior 8 outside of our borders for a couple of turns. So, if you plan to have Warrior 8 on the PForRiv W + W + W of the Stone by this point, you can move Warrior 8 1SW onto the Flood Plains S + S + S of the Marble and you can safely send Warrior 2 to the west to explore the Coast. After that, you can bring Warrior 2 back to his old position and put Warrior 8 defending Stone City. How does that sound?

It sounds perfectly reasonable, but what do we get out of it again? Is there some tiles still covered in black to the east? If so then I see what you're getting at.

Since, at the point that we could whip the Granary for 2 population points (on Turn 121) or when we could instead whip the Granary for the "ideal" Foodbox time but for only 1 population point on the next turn (on Turn 122), we'll still be at Size 1 in Stone City (3 turns to growth to Size 2 on Turn 121--and thus not needing 2 completed Cottages at this point), let's switch the Worker actions such that we will complete the tasks in the following order:
1. Complete the Cottage 1W of the Stone
2. Complete the Stone's Road and Quarry
3. Do the "partial Cottage trick" on the Flood Plains square 1S of Stone City on the way to completing the Flood Plains Cottage SW + W of Stone City
4. Complete the Flood Plains Cottage SW + W of Stone City
5. In Unclethrill's turnset, we can finish the Flood Plains Cottage 1S of Stone City

I seem to keep forgetting this idea of whipping the granary. If that's a likely option, then indeed we do want to improve stone before a second cottage. I think the quarry itself will then carry me to the end of my turnset anyway.
 
Since Irgy already brought up the test game inaccuracy, I thought that you'd already picked up on it.[/SPOILER]

I recall the comment, but I thought it had to do with the signs that I put in my test game, which said "Not Covered" on all three squares. I thought his comment was the fact that my signs were in the wrong place. I didn't pick up on the fact that that I actually had an extra desert tile there.

I thought you guys were on drugs this whole time when it was actually me... :smoke:

At least now you know why I've been wanting to move the warriors east all this time... :D
 
And we've come full circle to what I suggested in the first place. For what it's worth, unless Zara uses an unusual and sneaky path to the wheat city in the real game we'll spot it from the culture borders of Riverdale, the missionary was mostly just there for want of anything else for it to do. Less gold upkeep from less units sounds more useful to me.
Coming full circle is not a bad thing. It means that we've talked about an alternative and found it lacking in some way.

Not all suggested changes will turn out to be better than the original decisions.



Yep that's where I planned on putting warrior 1. Actually we can consider moving it 2W to cover more barb-galley spawning squares for later on when they start to appear, it just means it will take longer to get it back into culture borders if we need to save gold.
And we'll trust that you'll figure out these tiny details as to whether or not you'll have units costing extra Gold.


Later as well when Bedrock's and Zara's capital expand culture borders we can shuffle the northeastern warriors further east and ensure everywhere is completely defogged and barb-city-safe.
Sure, that makes sense. My only potential concern, and it's a minor one, is by having Warrior 6 preventing Forest regrowth by standing on the Grassland square 1E of where he's been staying, on the GHFor. That said, you can probably just as easily figure out how to fog-bust/spawn-bust from a different square in the area, such as from the western Incense or 1N of there in the Desert just as equally, without disrupting Forest regrowth.



It sounds perfectly reasonable, but what do we get out of it again? Is there some tiles still covered in black to the east? If so then I see what you're getting at.
Yes, I never did get time in my turnset to explore the far western Coast, by the Crab Resource there. It would be nice to know once and for all if that Crab has a "buddy" Seafood Resource or not in the water.



I seem to keep forgetting this idea of whipping the granary. If that's a likely option, then indeed we do want to improve stone before a second cottage. I think the quarry itself will then carry me to the end of my turnset anyway.
Probably because you keep whipping the Settler, which would also speed up when we need the Stone.
 
Version 5, don't let it be said I don't update the PPP enough :p

Changes:
* Fixed some small errors/omissions
* Christian missionary back to spreading to Dehli, mostly just to get rid of it.
* Workers improving stone sooner, in case we want to whip the granary.

105: Set Silverado to build settler instead of granary. Warrior moves NW to Dehli.
106: Worker 1 road in place.
107: Dehli switch to new cottage (from phMine)
108: Research 100%. Riverdale second citizen to grass river. Worker 4 road copper. Worker 3 walk N-N-NE to gfHill (via Dehli and corn). Worker 1 1W chop prForest. Swap warriors 7 & 8, walk warrior 8 NW-N to plains forest.
109: Worker 3 build road. Worker 1 stop chopping. Worker 4 E and build road on corn.
110: Warrior 8 is now fogbusting. Worker 1 moves to build road 1S of stone for stone city access.
111: Worker 4 NW to finish marked plains forest road. Worker 2 SE and chop for 1 turn. Cancel worker 1's road action.
112: Research to Math. Build Settler in Dehli. Worker 3 move to finish stone city road. Workers 1 & 4 build road on stone (then cancel actions). Move settler towards stone city, stopping within culture borders. Worker 2 move SW to grass river and build cottage.
113: Research 0%. Fire priest in Dehli (replace with phMine). Settle stone city, building a granary. Bulb Theology. Move Christian missionary to Dehli. Workers 1, 3 & 4 build a cottage on floodplains 1W of stone. Move warriors away from stone city to better fogbusting positions (warrior 8 can settle on stone city).
114: Spread Christianity in Dehli.
115: Worker 1 starts quarrying stone.
116-120: Watch for Zara's settler, and pause if seen. Worker 2 builds cottages (including over the forest, making sure not to waste a turn in the process) until the settler is complete, after which we will switch civics and chop then whip the granary. Workers 1,3,4 finish quarrying and roading stone. They will get back to building cottages after the turnset is finished.
 
Sounds good again
 
Quick results of a test for BLubmuz.

If we move Delhi from the corn to the farm 1SE (IIRC) delays the settler 1 turn from 7 to 8 turns to build.
If we then move off the silver to the corn in silverado, it will grow in 6 turns but will lose 5 commerce for each of those turns.
After growth, we can move the corn back to Delhi and let Silverado work the farm that Delhi was working. That farm gives it 3 food 1 commerce.

The bottom line is that we would be able to gain 1 commerce per turn after growth at a cost of 30 commerce up front. Working that farm would grow silverado to 3 in 33 turns. Thus we would break even commerce wise in 30 turns and the city would be able to begin its slow growth.

This will slow down current research and would delay our plan for the 'mids. I agree that we need to grow silverado but we can't really afford the tech delay right now, i don't think.

Can't we hire a couple of scientists while we are growing Silverado to cover for the missing flasks?
I think we need only one, since our effective science rate is around 50%.

Maybe we cannot afford the population, or we haven't built a library (we can use caste), or we cannot delay some crucial build, but I just wanted to raise this option.
 
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