SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Irgy]

I think if we do proceed with the idea (I don't mind giving it a try but I'm a little worried it will slow us down rather than speed us up), we should do so on the next turn set not this one, because this one's ready to go so why hold it up.

There's a little bit to organise for it, I thought we should continue the way we have been going in parallel with organising something different.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

With a little bit of tweaking of Worker moves, I can even get us to have Wheaties connected via a Trade Route very early, netting us a free Trade Route and a better chance of spreading a religion there. Plus I'll save us 2 Worker turns in the bargain.

Unless there are objections, I'll take Havr up on his "token checking out" suggestion now, as it's a bit much to ask someone else to incorporate the minor tweaks involved.

 

[unclethrill]

With a little bit of tweaking of Worker moves, I can even get us to have Wheaties connected via a Trade Route very early, netting us a free Trade Route and a better chance of spreading a religion there. Plus I'll save us 2 Worker turns in the bargain.

Unless there are objections, I'll take Havr up on his "token checking out" suggestion now, as it's a bit much to ask someone else to incorporate the minor tweaks involved.

JUst make sure to be clear in the changes. I would prefer that you just make the changes in the PPP and repost that. I plan to work off of that PPP for the game.

 

[unclethrill]

I considered not replying to this message, but there are several things that I feel couldn’t be further from the truth and just couldn’t hold my tongue… I mean my fingers.


...

You're right. I was out of line. I wasn't trying to single you out. When I started that post, my intention was to state that I was done ranting but I just got worked up. I use the excuse that RL is really stressing me right now but that is no excuse to take it out on you or anyone else.
As far as asking for you help with a PPP, what I asked for were the top 15 goals for the TS. What I got was a fairly detailed description of what should be done and how to do it. I chose to work directly from that because I felt that it would get us to completing the TS faster since those points were the ones I thought you would be lobbying for no matter how I approached the PPP. That is my bad and I shouldn't complain about what you, Irgy and Dhoom are doing. I'm truly sorry for that.

So back to my original point, I think that as a team we will do well but I still think we are missing the spirit of the game.

 

[unclethrill]

Since we seem to be in the team play mode, I like Havr idea. I don't think we are really in the spirit of the game if there is nothing left for the up player to have to deal with in the actual game but nonetheless we need a better way to deal with how we are playing currently.

I like the token idea. (I'm a computer scientist too!) With the token, I think things will be sped up over what it is now.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

JUst make sure to be clear in the changes. I would prefer that you just make the changes in the PPP and repost that. I plan to work off of that PPP for the game.

Sure thing! I'll bold the changed lines.

I (stupidly) thought that it would be simple to rejuggle a few Worker actions. It seems that just about every Worker action is getting rewritten as a result. The Workers are essentially accomplishing the same goals, but just a little bit faster for some things (connecting up Wheaties) and a bit slower for other things (building a Road to the Great Person Farm). In the end, I don't know if it'll be worth all of the extra effort just to get that Trade Route earlier, but I'm almost done, so no going back now. Worst case, we will end up hating what I changed and will just use the previous PPP.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Edited changes, made based on Mitchum's comments, appear in red text.

Another minor point about checking our Flasks to ensure that we have enough of them invested in Civil Service prior to Lightbulbing Civil Service was added in blue text.

Hiring an Artist in the GPF turns out to have 2 nice side effects:
1) We get a Trade Route connection without needing a Road (and thus Worker 1 can instead chop the Forest where Crab City will be settled, instead of spending turns building a Road towards the GPF)
2) Allows us to grow faster immediately by working the 3 Food Pig square instead of the 2 Food + 1 Hammer PCow square


The Token is now Checked back in

Spoiler :

Please consider the "token" to be checked back in.

I managed to squeeze Alphabet out one turn sooner, possibly due to getting a few extra Flasks along the way as well as getting the Trade Route to Wheaties up that much sooner.

We still need a name for the Great Person Farm. It's tentatively going to be called "Great Person Farm."

I'm sorry if there are mistakes, but I tried to double-check and triple-check everything as I went.

Since we are close to the completion of the PPP, I'm not going to put it in a spoiler.

PPP version 4.ten_billion.01.A.ii
T133
Revolt to CS and Rep
Workers 1, 2, & 3 move to GHFor NNE of Delhi; Mine/Stop
Worker 4 move to GH NE + NE + N of Delhi (1SW of PCow); Mine/Stop
Hire 2nd Priest in Delhi in place of the Cottage 1S of Delhi (Work the 2 Corn, Copper, GRiv Irr, and 2 Priests at Size 6)
Riverdale works the GRiv Irr and the GRiv Cottage (NW + W of Riverdale) [1]
Switch Bedrock and Wheaties to Settlers
Hire Artist in Wheaties
Research 0%
Tech CS

T134
Delhi grows to Size 7: The new citizen works the GRiv Cottage 1S of Delhi (instead of the auto-assigned GHRiv Mine 1NE + E of Delhi)
Move Workers 1, 2, & 3 to Cows SW of Wheaties and Road
Move Worker 4 to the Oasis and Road/Stop (thanks to the Road on the Cow having been completed by the other Workers)
Research 0%
Tech CS

T135
Move Workers 1, 2, & 3 to the Oasis and Road
Move Worker 4 to the PFor 1N of Wheaties and Chop/Stop (thanks to the Road on the Oasis having been completed by the other Workers)
Research 0%
Tech CS

T136
Move Workers 1 & 2 to the GRiv 1NE of Delhi and Cottage
Move Worker 3 1N of Wheaties and Chop/Stop
Worker 4 Chop/Stop (1N of Wheaties)
Research 0%
Tech CS

T137 [2]
Change Wheaties' artist to a scientist.
Workers 3 & 4 move to wheat and farm.
Riverdale will grow. Work Cottage again.
Research 0%
Tech CS

T138
Move Worker 1 to Grassland Forest 1S of GCopper, Cottage/Stop
Move Worker 2 1E GHRiv(Mine); Road/Stop
Delhi will grow; Work new Cottage [3]
Research 0%
Tech CS

T139
Put Wheaties scientist on Wheat.
Revolt to slavery
Worker 1 W GFor (W + W of Delhi) and Road/Stop
Move Worker 2 2E to the GFor (1S of the Peak and NW + W + W of Riverdale) [4]
CHANGE SCIENCE RATE: Research 100% [5]
Tech CS

T140 [6]
Move Worker 2 SE GRivFor (W + W of Riverdale) and Chop
Move Worker 1 NW GFor (W + W of the GCopper) and Road/Stop
Research 100%
Tech CS

T141
Move Workers 3 & 4 1S PFor (1N of Wheaties) and Chop (the Forest is chopped into the Settler on this turn)
Move Worker 1 1SW PFor (1E of the PCow) and Road/Stop
SCIENCE RATE CHANGES TO: Research 80% [7]
Tech CS

T142
Confused Missionary Finished
Start settler
Delhi Size 9. Work GLHill instead of the PHRiv Mine
Silverado takes the Granary out of the build queue so that we get 1 extra turn before the Courthouse's Hammers start to disappear
Confused Missionary moves towards Wheaties to the PCow (SW + S of Wheaties) [8]
Move Worker 1 1W PCow, 1NW GPig and Road/Stop
Move Workers 3 & 4 N to the PWheat and Road
SCIENCE RATE CHANGES TO: Research 0%
Tech CS

T143
Confused Missionary moves into Wheaties and spreads Confucianism according to the algorithm listed at reference point 8 [8]
Move Worker 1 W (1W of the GPig) and Chop/Stop
Silverado switches to building a Granary
Silverado Settler move towards GPF (2 turns to get there)
Worker 2 Finishes the chop into Riverdale's Library
Move Worker 4 1S Plains (1N of Wheaties) and Road/Stop
SCIENCE RATE CHANGES TO: Research 100%
TECH CHANGES TO: Tech Alphabet (we have 316 Flasks--exactly enough Flasks plus 1 Flask invested in Civil Service)
Note: If for some reason we don't quite have 315+ Flasks invested in Civil Service and have somewhere between 306 and 314 Flasks, then we can get enough Flasks (315 are needed) just by staying at a 0% Science Rate while researching Civil Service for 1 more turn. But, if we have 315+ Flasks invested in Civil Service, then we already have enough and we will definitely want to start researching Alphabet on this turn.

T144
GP Hopefully Prophet. Bulb CS. If not, stop and regroup. "No, the old ways are best." i.e. Do not switch to Bureaucracy when asked to do so.
Whip Library in riverdale ***First before Revolt****
Work Farm and NW + W Cottage in Riverdale
Revolt to Bureaucracy, CS
Fire priests and hire 5 scientists in Delhi
Delhi works copper, two corn, and GHill mine (switch the GRiv Irr to the GHRiv Mine NE + E of Delhi)
Move Worker 2 NW GFor (NW + W + W of Riverdale) and Road/Stop
Worker 4 Farms the Plains 1N of Wheaties
Move Worker 3 1S to the Plains 1N of Wheaties and Farms
Move GPF settler into place (2S of the GPig; 1N of where the blue circle suggests)
Move Worker 1 1W GFor (the same square as Warrior 2, W + W of the GPig) and Chop/Stop
Research 100%
Tech Alpha

T145
Start Confused Monastary in Riverdale
Move Worker 2 1SW PForRiv and Road/Stop
Settle GPF (2S of the GPig, 1SW of the PCow). (We need a name "Grt Person Farm"? ("Great Person Farm" won't fit))
Start granary in GPF
Manually hire an Artist in the GPF (if you Examined the City to select the Granary, it will look like an Artist is hired until you select the Granary, at which point the City governor will put the citizen on the PCow, unless you manually hire the Artist)
Move Worker 1 1W GFor (1W of Warrior 2, W+ W + W of the GPig) and Chop (no Stopping)
Research 100%
Tech Alpha

T146
Move Worker 2 1NW GHRiv(Mine) (NE + E of Delhi) and Road/Stop
Research 100%
Tech Alpha

T147
Move Worker 2 1SW GForRiv (E of Delhi) and Chop
Research 100%
Tech Alpha

T148
Delhi works copper, two corn, and GRiv Cottage 1S of Delhi (switch the GHRiv Mine to the GRiv Cottage), as well as 5 Scientists
Workers 3 & 4 Finish the Road on the Plains square 1N of Wheaties, thereby connecting up Wheat this turn
CHANGE SCIENCE RATE: Research 0%
Tech Alpha

T149
GPF's borders expand
GPF: Fire the Artist Specialist and work the GPig for 3 Food per turn (City growth in 11 turns)
Delhi works copper, two corn, and GHRiv Mine to the NE + E (switch the GRiv Cottage to the GHRiv Mine), as well as 5 Scientists
Worker 1 is ready to complete the GFor chop, but don't do it--just Wait him (press the "w" key)--we can decide if we'll chop for BLubz' turnset (1W of Warrior 2, W+ W + W of the GPig)
Worker 3 1E PFor (1NE of Wheaties) and Chop [9] (do Worker 3 before Worker 4 so that our test game's Worker ordering will match up)
Worker 4 1E PFor (1NE of Wheaties) and Chop [9]
CHANGE SCIENCE RATE: Research 100%
It is 1 turn before we tech Alpha, so save and submit save! [10]
Tech Alpha


References

Spoiler :

[1] It actually looks like I was wrong: Unclethrill was keeping Riverdale working the two Cottages until T135, when he switched to working the GRiv Irr square. Although the extra Gold via Commerce is nice to get, Food is our current limiting factor in Riverdale, so let's maximize Food there whenever we can, such as by starting to work the GRiv Irr square on T133.

[2] Workers 1 & 2 finished the GRiv Cottage for Delhi on this turn, with 1 turn to spare before Delhi should be working the square.

[3] Growth from Size 8 to Size 9 still happens in 4 more turns.

[4] Okay, so we lost one of the Worker turns here that we'd previously gained, in order to be able to chop the Forest at Riverdale in time.

[5] By firing the Scientist is Wheaties, our Priests are barely just missing out on the ability to get a bonus Flasks, so we're better running at a non-0% Science Rate at this point.

[6] The Wheat gets improved on this turn, 1 turn after we started working it with a citizen

[7] We were able to drop our Science Rate to 80% instead of 90% due to the extra Flasks that we earned earlier

[8] Let's let a religion automatically spread to Wheaties before spreading the Confucian Missionary there.

If Confucianism automatically spreads there, we'll need to find a different City that doesn't have Confucianism. In that case, if the Great Person Farm does not yet have Confucianism, send the Missionary there instead.

The idea is to wait for a religion to be automatically spread to a City, for the hopes of grabbing Buddhism.

The other idea is that a stationary Missionary, like a stationary Spy, will have increased chances of spreading after 5 turns of not moving (which usually means ending your turn 6 times).

So, once you've got a City that has a religion which isn't Confucianism in it and you have ended the Missionary's turn in that City 6 turns, you'll get the best chance of success for spreading Confucianism there.

[9] While we are waiting for Alphabet for Animal Husbandry in order to improve the PCow near Wheaties, we might as well chop one of the two Forests to the NE of Wheaties, so that one of the Forests will have a chance of regrowing from the other Forest that is there--right now there are 0% Forest-regrowth chances up there since both Plains squares already have Forests on them and thus can't get new Forests.

[10] Why not finish researching Alphabet? Well, Zara can demand a tech on the turn that we learn Alphabet. If that happens, it'll just be an annoying discussion to have at the end of a turnset. Better to have that discussion for the start of the next turnset, where the next player can play 1 quick turn to see what happens, after we've had a chance to discuss how we'll handle such a demand from Zara

 

[havr]

Dhoom, I must say I admire your ability to work all those details. It is probably endless optimizations, testing, retesting , going back and forth. Even if I wanted to do it I will not be able. I don't have the patience and concentration to do it (even when I take Ritalin ).

So basically, good job

 

[Mitchum]

Worker 4 move to GH NE + NE + N of Delhi (1SW of PCow); Mine/Stop

This is an illusion of a worker turn. This mine will never be worked since it will never be in a BFC, right?

T143
Missionary moves to Silverado and spread him whenever you feel comfortable doing so[8]

OK, I left the missionary in Silverado for 4 turns and he failed. How long do you suggest he sit there? I see the benefit of having the OR bonus in Silverado, but trying to spread religion into a size 1 city that already has a religion is very difficult. Do we really want to risk wasting the 60 hammers we've invested in a missionary this early in the game? I'd rather use this missionary where he will have 100% chance of success.

I still think we should spread Confucianism to the GP Farm right away. Play ahead fifteen more turns and you'll see that the GP Farm will be 1000% better since it will have access to the pigs and fish. We will soon have 3 more cities (in addition to Wheaties) for a total of 4 that are religionless to try for the infinitesimally small chance of having Buddhism spread from the other side of the planet.

Or, spread Confucianism to Wheaties, since it will be able to benefit from the OR bonus very soon since it is growing and will soon be working the cows and possibly a mine giving it > 8 hammers (i.e. +2 hammer OR bonus). It doesn't have a religion either so success should be 100%, right?

T144
Worker 2 NW GFor (NW + W + W of Riverdale)

And do what? Road/stop?

T145
(We need a name Foodopolis???)

Can't we just call it what it is: GP Farm. The use of city names is not to be clever but to make it clear which city we're talking about in our thread without having to open the save to figure it out. What can be more clear than GP Farm?

T147
Delhi works copper, two corn, and GRiv Cottage 1S of Delhi (switch the GHRiv Mine to the GRiv Cottage)
Research 100%

What seems to have been missed a few times is my comment when posting the test save. In the real game, we do NOT have a 2 commerce trade route with Zara in Silverado like we do in the test game. At this point, we should count on having 15 less gold in the bank. I know you're trying to get Alphabet 1 turn sooner, but we can't be sure that we'll have the gold to do so. I presume that Zara is sharing his second trade route with his mystery AI friend in the real game.

I think we should keep the citizen on the GHRiv Mine to speed up the settler. We will also likely have to keep the science slider at 0% this turn.

T149
It is 1 turn before we tech Alpha, so save and submit save! [10]

As I said above, we will likely learn Alphabet 1 turn later due to lack of gold. However, the point of unclethrill playing until Alphabet is so that we can discuss tech trade opportunities before BLubmuz' turn. If we stop the turn before we learn Alphabet, we will not be able to do this. I think unclethrill should play until the turn we learn Alphabet not the turn before, right?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Confucian Missionary

Spoiler :

OK, I left the missionary in Silverado for 4 turns and he failed. How long do you suggest he sit there? I see the benefit of having the OR bonus in Silverado, but trying to spread religion into a size 1 city that already has a religion is very difficult. Do we really want to risk wasting the 60 hammers we've invested in a missionary this early in the game? I'd rather use this missionary where he will have 100% chance of success.

The good part about the Missionary is that he isn't really tied to other parts of the PPP. So, we can change that one part of the PPP without affecting anything else in the PPP.

Our primary strategy calls for us leaving all new Cities religionless, in the hopes that Buddhism will spread there. Yes, the chance for each City individual is low, but if you add up a bunch of small chances together, you get several small chances.

So, I'm really hesitant to spread a Missionary manually to any City that does not have a religion in it, as doing so is against our primary strategy of trying to obtain Buddhism at any cost (to the point of settling really stupid Cities crammed in next to an AI that has Buddhism).

Or, spread Confucianism to Wheaties, since it will be able to benefit from the OR bonus very soon since it is growing and will soon be working the cows and possibly a mine giving it > 8 hammers (i.e. +2 hammer OR bonus). It doesn't have a religion either so success should be 100%, right?

Wheaties is in the same boat, at least until it gets a religion. If that religion is Confucianism, then we don't need to send a Missionary there. If that religion isn't Confucianism, we could seriously consider sending the Missionary there, as the City will be a bit bigger and is relatively close to the Confucian Holy City without being close to a different Holy City.


I do want to point out, though, that Silverado is the only City that can immediately benefit from the Organized Religion bonus.


Still, I would be willing to entertain the following idea:
Send the Missionary to Wheaties. Don't spread him. Let him sit there for turn after turn until a religion automatically spreads there.

If Confucianism spreads, send the Missionary to a different City that already has a religion in it. If a different religion spreads, then make sure that we've sat in the City for 5 turns without moving (6 turns counting the turn that you move into the City) before spreading the religion. Then we'll have been sitting there for a long time with the Missionary and will have maximized our chances of being able to successfully spread the religion.


The usefulness of sending the Missionary to the Great Person Farm is dubious
Now, I will point out that the Great Person Farm doesn't have much use for the Organized Religion bonus for quite some time. Presumably, we'll want to whip 2 Work Boats for the Fish before we complete the Granary. Initially, when we're working the Plains Cow, we may get a couple of bonus Hammers, but that'll at maximum only be for a couple of turns of growth, as we'll already almost be at Size 2 or will already be at Size 2, after which we'll whip a Work Boat and then grow using a Fish instead of the Plains Cow, so as to be able to whip quickly again. Only the second whipped Work Boat's overflow Hammers are Hammers that we might want the Organized Religion bonus for.

I still think we should spread Confucianism to the GP Farm right away. Play ahead fifteen more turns and you'll see that the GP Farm will be 1000% better since it will have access to the pigs and fish.

I'd much rather hire an Artist during 4 of the turns that we are Pasturing the Cow (it'll take approximately 7 turns to be Pastured by our Worker). In the grand scheme of things, the Great People Points generated by that Artist will have such a minimal impact on what type of Great Person we get for our 4th Great Person that I'm not worried at all about getting a Great Artist as a result.

Here's the related math:
3GPP * 100% * 4 turns = 6 * 4 = 24 GPP. GPP required for our 4th Great Person = 600. 24/600 = 4% chance of a Great Artist, 96% chance of a Great Scientist.

Missing Worker Action

Spoiler :

T144
Worker 2 NW GFor (NW + W + W of Riverdale)

And do what? Road/stop?

Good catch. I'll update the PPP. It is indeed a Road/Stop action.

The Great Person Farm's name

Spoiler :

Can't we just call it what it is: GP Farm. The use of city names is not to be clever but to make it clear which city we're talking about in our thread without having to open the save to figure it out. What can be more clear than GP Farm?

That's fine by me. But if we're doing that, let's call it "Great Person Farm," so as not to potentially confuse "GP" with "Great Prophet."

End the turnset before learning Alphabet

Spoiler :

As I said above, we will likely learn Alphabet 1 turn later due to lack of gold. However, the point of unclethrill playing until Alphabet is so that we can discuss tech trade opportunities before BLubmuz' turn. If we stop the turn before we learn Alphabet, we will not be able to do this. I think unclethrill should play until the turn we learn Alphabet not the turn before, right?

BLubmuz can play for 1 turn at the start of his turnset just as easily. However, between now and then, we'll have had the time to discuss what we'll do in case of Zara making a demand from us.

Zara is a very whiny, demanding AI--he asks for tech gifts a lot. I've seen AIs demand a tech on the turn that you learn Alphabet countless times. I'd rather that we have a chance to talk about the issue first and have a clear idea of what to do in case we do see a demand. We already know what kinds of techs we'll be able to get from Zara thanks to Esipionage, so it's not like we're learning the answer to some deep, mysterious secret by ending the turn.

 

[Mitchum]

I agree with all of your comments, but have a few items to add to a few of them.

Trade Routes with Zara
Not necessarily. Until we learn Sailing, our foreign Trade Routes have to come to us via Roads.

Zara has Sailing already (he has a galley) and it's likely that his AI friend does as well. That is why I assumed one of his two trade routes from Aksum was going to another AI.

Regarding warrior 4 and looking for roads, I don't think you actually have to "see" them in order to be connected. I've traded with AI when I hadn't seen a spec of their land, let alone road connections between my cities and his.

By the way, I'm not worried about a war declaration from Zara, but would prefer that it happen once UT gets through his turnset and we've already bulbed Civil Service. With the Bureaucracy hammer bonus, we'd be able to crank out units very quickly.

Send the Missionary to Wheaties. Don't spread him. Let him sit there for turn after turn until a religion automatically spreads there.

I'm fine with this approach. However, once Wheaties is done with its settler and the cow is improved, it will get the OR bonus and I'll be pushing to spread Confucianism at that time (during BLubmuz' turnset), even if no religion has spread there yet.

I'd much rather hire an Artist during 4 of the turns that we are Pasturing the Cow (it'll take approximately 7 turns to be Pastured by our Worker).

I'm fine with this option. I actually mentioned it a while back but got some resistance due to GPP gene pollution. You've shown that the actual effect is 4%, which is quite small.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Expanding the Great Person Farm's borders using an Artist Specialist = a 4% chance of Getting a Great Artist = Gives us an extra chance at obtaining Buddhism and gives us the equivalent of one free (60-Hammer-worth) Missionary. Shall we proceed with this approach?

Spoiler :

I'd much rather hire an Artist during 4 of the turns that we are Pasturing the Cow (it'll take approximately 7 turns to be Pastured by our Worker).

I'm fine with this option. I actually mentioned it a while back but got some resistance due to GPP gene pollution. You've shown that the actual effect is 4%, which is quite small.

To be honest, if we are all okay with this approach to expanding the Great Person Farm's borders, we can get the job finished within Unclethrill's turnset.

That way, we'll get an extra 4 Flasks per turn for 4 turns from the Artist Specialist. The Alphabet timing is tight, so if there's any small difference between the test game and the real game, an extra 16 Flasks will easily make up the difference.

I didn't want to immediately write the Artist into the PPP, in case it turned out that the team vehemently objected to the idea, but it's easy enough to add in to help guarantee our Alphabet date.

 

[Mitchum]

Expanding the Great Person Farm's borders using an Artist Specialist = a 4% chance of Getting a Great Artist = Gives us an extra chance at obtaining Buddhism and gives us the equivalent of one free (60-Hammer-worth) Missionary. Shall we proceed with this approach?

Spoiler :

To be honest, if we are all okay with this approach to expanding the Great Person Farm's borders, we can get the job finished within Unclethrill's turnset.

That way, we'll get an extra 4 Flasks per turn for 4 turns from the Artist Specialist. The Alphabet timing is tight, so if there's any small difference between the test game and the real game, an extra 16 Flasks will easily make up the difference.

I didn't want to immediately write the Artist into the PPP, in case it turned out that the team vehemently objected to the idea, but it's easy enough to add in to help guarantee our Alphabet date.

It sounds like a good plan. The posting has died down, so I think people agree with the PPP as it stands. Grab the token and update the PPP. I Ass-U-Me that no one will have any issues with this approach. If they do, they can modify the PPP back, right?

With this last change, unless someone has any issues, I think UT can play soon. Or will you be having your daughter play for you?

 

[Irgy]

I like the artist-border pop approach. I also agree that the PPP is ready to play.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Grab the token and update the PPP.

Token "grabbed." I'll update this message when I'm done with it.

EDIT: The token is now checked back in.

 

[havr]

So, can UT finalllly play?
This is ridiculously long...

May I offer another suggestion to augment our "token system"?
I would like to put a cap on the number of days the PPP is modified.
Once we reached the cap we stop optimize and just play.

To avoid worries about someone changing some critical component at the last moment we allow anyone to veto playing even after the cap has reached. The cap is only for MM changes.

 

[unclethrill]

So, can UT finalllly play?
This is ridiculously long...

May I offer another suggestion to augment our "token system"?
I would like to put a cap on the number of days the PPP is modified.
Once we reached the cap we stop optimize and just play.

To avoid worries about someone changing some critical component at the last moment we allow anyone to veto playing even after the cap has reached. The cap is only for MM changes.

I like the idea. I suggest 48 hours. We may have to modify that as we get closer to the end and are running out of time.


Speaking of out of time. I won't be able to play until Tomorrow night (friday) so any last minute changes can still occur.

 

[havr]

Speaking of out of time. I won't be able to play until Tomorrow night (friday) so any last minute changes can still occur.

Can't you let your 8 year old daughter play instead of you?

 

[unclethrill]

Can't you let your 8 year old daughter play instead of you?

She's busy too

 

[Dhoomstriker]

BLubmuz' Turnset
Okay, if you guys want to pick up the pace of the game, we can't waste this downtime--let's start talking about what to do after Unclethrill's turnset.


Next Builds

Spoiler :

We're about to get 4 more Cities (we'll have 1 of them at the end of UT's turnset) and we're still at only 4 Workers. We need to rectify this situation.

I'd like to see Wheaties and Bedrock each making a Worker.

Wheaties will soon receive a Forest chop on the last turn of completing the Settler. We can overflow that Forest chop into a Worker and then finish off a Worker.

We probably should have Fishing by the time that Bedrock is done its Settler. So, we could aim to start a Work Boat for the Clam City's Clam and then whip the Work Boat when we are 1 turn before growth to Size 4. Then, due to whipping, we'll shrink to Size 2, complete the Work Boat, and be back at Size 3 for building the Worker.


Riverdale can continue to grow while building a Confucian Monastary, but we'll need to start thinking about making a non-Confucian Missionary spread its religion there, so that we'll have more Cultural buildings that we can build once the Confucian Monastary is complete.

Delhi, after getting the Settler, will go for Aqueduct -> The Hanging Gardens, if we want to have any chance at all of completing The Hanging Gardens first. Whipping the Aqueduct, if we foresee ourselves growing beyond the number of improved squares, is a possibility.

Worker Actions

Spoiler :

Worker 2 (near Delhi)
We could also aim to either Cottage the GRiv 1E of Delhi

Spoiler :

that currently has its Forest being chopped and will be chopped on the turn that we learn Alphabet

or we could put a Mine on the GHRiv E + E of Delhi. We'll probably want to do both of those things shortly, although the order of the actions can be altered.

Workers 3 & 4 (near Wheaties)
After finishing the 1NE of Wheaties' PFor Forest Chop, they should be able to improve the PCow, if we are able to trade for Animal Husbandry.

From there, we'll have to figure out what will be useful for them to do. Perhaps one of them will stick around Wheaties, putting down Mines on the two PHFor squares, while the other will possibly help improve Delhi (if we aren't whipping many population points into the Aqueduct) or will head out to a different City to the west to help improve it.

Worker 1 (on the square where we will settle the Crab City)
He's about to chop the Forest where we settle the Crab City for 20 "free" Hammers in the Great Person Farm. I say "free," because we'd have lost those Hammers had our Settler settled on the Forest square.

What's next? Probably moving 1E for a partial Chop, followed by improving the GPig for the GPF, so help with whipping out Work Boats for the GFP.

We can optionally, on the turn that BLubz takes control, partially chop 1E of where Worker 1 is standing, so that on the next turn, when we learn Alphabet (and hopefully will get Fishing in trade), we can move back 1W to where Worker 1 is standing now and put the Forest chop into a Work Boat. That way, if Confucianism hasn't spread to the Great Person Farm, we won't care, as we won't miss out on the Organized Religion bonus of our Hammers going into a Granary (since the Hammers will instead go into a Work Boat that can't use the Organized Religion bonus).

After that bit of micromanagement and improving the Pig, we'll have to figure out what to do--perhaps improve the Marble square, since 3 of our Cities will be able to share that square?

Techs and Wonders

Spoiler :

Should we go for Aesthetics after Alphabet? It opens up 3 Wonders (The Parthenon, The Statue of Zeus, and the Shwegadon Paya). A large percentage of AIs who build the Shwegadon Paya

Spoiler :

which is a World Wonder that lets you switch into any Religion Civic--it is kind of like a lame version of The Pyramids

like to switch into Free Religion. Now, it's possible to switch them out of Free Religion near the end of the game, but if we want to reduce the number of AIs that can get into Free Religion, we should aim to build this Wonder.

The downside is that it requires Gold as a Resource, so unless we keep building Settlers and settle one off-continent for Gold or are able to trade for Gold, the price will be very steep--675 Hammers without the Gold bonus.


Should we go for Currency? Our economy is about to tank, with all of the Cities that we are about to settle. We'll have both of that tech's prerequisites--Math and Alphabet, so it'll be a good tech to research. The downside of researching it now is that we could probably wait a little while and an AI will research it for us. It's also a tech that does not open up any Wonders of the World, so we might miss out on the Aesthetics Wonders if we beeline Currency.

Then again, if the AIs are also slow to grab Aesthetics, then our economic boost from getting Currency can help us to research Aesthetics and all future techs somewhat faster.


Should we instead just go for a straight beeline to Mass Media? We can research Paper next, followed by Education for cheap Universities.

We'd be giving up on the Shwegadon Paya and the Great Library, as well as the Great Artist from Music. We'd also be researching these techs slowly, due to not having Currency to boost our economy.

Education is an expensive tech, so it can be argued that if we detour to Literature for The Great Library (Literature requires Aesthetics as a pre-requisite) AND if we can build The Great Library, then the Great Scientist that we receive in return can make up for the invested Flasks by Lightbulbing part of Education for us.

But, that means we'd need to find the Hammers to build The Great Library. At 525 Hammers, that's not going to be an easy feat for our Hammer-poor Great Person Farm--which, of course, would be the ideal place to build it. Delhi could probably build it easily enough and then the Great Person Farm could just focus on building the National Epic and run Specialists via Caste System that much sooner, making up for the difference.