SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[Mutineer]

problem is, if 9 turns regrow cycle is correct, after 3 settlers we down to 4 max pop.

I would advise to play test game, in one whip settler - overflow to mids, using second city to produce workers, in other do what ever you think best.

Add couple bureaucratic chops into mids and see how mach mids happiness helps to continue cycle and support city after we finish expand

There no interference between exploration and mids.

I do not want to run tests again I did damage already :0

Reseach wize I see :

Massonry:- fishing-saling:AH

We do not want to waster turns to connect cities and we want to benefir from trade and start BW atright away.

worker turn after connecting stone could be used for exploration WB and/or chop to mids befor AH ready.

 

[Silu]

'Mids in Bombay is a fair point - it has both better existing hammer capabilities and more potential for the short-mid term, while all the prod hills in the capital are still forests. For 'Mids actual prod potential is relatively more important than chopping power or whip overflow tricks. We can flip-flop the other Corn for capital post-settler-worker-whipping growth cycles and otherwise use it for max in Bombay. Or does Bombay have some grand purpose in the grand scheme I might have failed to follow at this point?

 

[mdy]

looking at the save there are 3-4 cities we want to settle fairly soon (barbs depending). The 2 fish, marble city, floodplains city, and one near the wheat. We also need to start exploring off the island and preferably get an early acadmey. The Pyramids I think can be delayed as it won't bring us much benefit in the short term.

2 ways of getting the 4 settlers are:

Bombay:

T0 Fire scientists, start settler
T+5 whip settler for 2 pop
T+6 settler built to found marble city, start worker
T+10 worker 3 built, start settler
T+27 settler 4 built for floodplains rice.

Delhi

T+1 Continue the granary
T+5 whip settler for 3 pop
T+6 settler for 3 pop, send to found 2 fish work 2 corn/silver
T+7 granary built, overflow into pyramids
T+11 grow size 4 work cottage
T+15 grow size 5 work cottage
T+18 grow size 6 hire scientist start settler from cottage
T+19 whip settler for 3pop
T+20 settler 3 built for wheat
T+22 grow size 4 work cottage
T+25 grow size 5 hire 2 scientists in pace of cottage
T+32 generate scientist for academy.

If we delay settler 3 for an earlier academy we would get:

T+1 Continue the granary
T+5 whip settler for 3 pop
T+6 settler for 3 pop, send to found 2 fish work 2 corn/silver
T+7 granary built, overflow into pyramids
T+11 grow size 4 hire scientist
T+16 grow size 5, hire scientist
T+21 generate scientist, grow size 6, start settler
T+22 whip settler for 3 pop
T+23 settler built for wheat overflow to Pyramids.

Founding an academy 11 turns earlier seems like a reasonable trade off for delaying the 5th city by 3 turns.

 

[shyuhe]

I don't think the stone will be available for the T+7 overflow. Do we want to use that overflow on something else - maybe a worker? Or is it not that many hammers?

I'd also hold off on settler 4 - we will need a worker more than a settler at that stage since the new cities will need improvements first. The FP/rice site won't go away unless barbs settle it, which we can prevent with fog/spawn busting.

 

[LowtherCastle]

1. Testing would be good, but someone needs to set up the map and get the MM right. THEN someone needs to run the tests.

2. My plan delays the Pyramids only a few turns in exchange for 1) getting our 2 far-and-away best cities started asap, 2) getting the exploring wb going asap, 3) still getting all four of our remaining 6 oxford cities done pretty quickly, and 4) having workers to do the work. The Pyramids are done before a 4th 3pop, so the unhappiness shouldn't be a problem, I don't think.

Spoiler :

      whip unhappiness
t93    0
t98    1 settler1 whipped
t101   1 settler2
t114   2 settler3 whipped
t115   1
t126   2 settler4 whipped
t129   1

t114 approximate, depending on mm
regrowth is 9t but add 2t for each settler

(spoiler edited)

3. Stone is currently scheduled to be done for T-7 overflow, yes.

4. Combining mdy's plan with mine might be interesting, except imo Bombay should go
wkr-settler(2pop). The reason I was avoiding building a settler there is that the 3pop in Delhi scores us a free 43. (67 at a cost of 24)

5. If we don't build the Pyramids in Delhi, what do we build there for those 9t of regrowth?

 

[mdy]

I'd also hold off on settler 4 - we will need a worker more than a settler at that stage since the new cities will need improvements first.

possibly not in this case given that both 2 fish and the marble sites will only need 2 land improvements in the short term, other than that it is just roads and chops. Witht he exception of a possible chop the capital shouldn't need any worker turns invested in it either. If Bombay is used as a settler/worker pump in the short term at size 2 (what else could we do with it?) then it would need at most 1 improvement, so 3 workers should be just about enough for the immediate future.

I don't think the stone will be available for the T+7 overflow. Do we want to use that overflow on something else - maybe a worker? Or is it not that many hammers?

It won't be but we can't delay the whip without delaying the settler. I like LC's suggestion of putting the overflow+a chop immediately into another settler. This would delay the hook up of the stone so we would still start the Pyramids without it, but the faster Rex would probably be worth it.

 

[mdy]

A cross between my plan and LC's would look like:

Bombay:

T+0: start worker.
T+4: worker built, start settler.
T+11: whip settler for 2 pop.
T+12 settler for wheat built.
We can have another settler built by T+29 here.



Delhi:

T+1: Start granary, work grass forest instead of cottage.
T+5: whip settler for 3pop work 2corn/silver
T+6: settler built for 2 fish overflow into granary
T+7: Finish granary, overflow into settler.
T+9: Settler built with one chop for marble.
T+13: grow size 4, hire scientist.
T+18 grow size 5, hire scientist.
T+23 GS born, grow to size 6, fire scientists, start settler work corn, silver, 2 cottages, forest
T+24: whip settler
T+25 finish settler for rice/floodplains

 

[LowtherCastle]

Mutineer, here's a test save with the map updated to what we now know, starting at 3100bc. You're the only one who can bring MM in line. IF you're up to it...(don't forget to move the worker to the wrong forest...) Speaking of which, are there any pre-chops that have been done but not marked on the save?

I also added the plains tile mushroomshirt goodjob noticed in Aksum. I'm pretty sure it has ivory on it. That explains the curious jumps and falls in Zara's production graph. It also tells me that Zara has one 2g fish nets tile. Time will tell...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Looks excellent, mdy.

In Delhi are you at 9hpt from the beginning?
Does it make any difference if we build the granary starting T+0 or T+1?

 

[mdy]

In Delhi are you at 9hpt from the beginning?
Does it make any difference if we build the granary starting T+0 or T+1?

Delaying the granary for 1T allows for a greater overflow when the settler is whipped, but as we would get a greater overflow from when the granary is built if we start it immediately it doesn't really make any difference. We can't go to 9hpt until we start the granary, otherwise we will not be able to whip the settler for 3 pop so I guess:

Bombay:

T+0: start worker.
T+4: worker built, start settler.
T+11: whip settler for 2 pop.
T+12 settler for wheat built.
We can have another settler built by T+29 here.



Delhi:

T+0: Start granary, start working a grass forest instead of a cottage.
T+5: whip settler for 3pop work 2corn/silver
T+6: settler built for 2 fish overflow into granary
T+7: Finish granary, overflow into settler.
T+9: Settler built with one chop for marble.
T+13: grow size 4, hire scientist.
T+18 grow size 5, hire scientist.
T+23 GS born, grow to size 6, fire scientists, start settler work corn, silver, 2 cottages, forest
T+24: whip settler
T+25 finish settler for rice/floodplains

would gain us 2 hammers at the expense of three base commerce= 4 beakers. I don't think either of these is clearly better than the other.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'm not certain, but I think 9hpt in Delhi makes a difference on the second settler getting done in 2t after the first.

 

[Mutineer]

ok, here it is.

Units position slightly different,
some forest grow in wrong places and we could have a different amount of beakers /gold(small rounding difference).
no forests in capital have any prechops.

 

[Silu]

According to my blue circle "theory" (which is not reliable in the slightest ), ZY will settle NENEEE of Delhi next and next to the northern Wheat (1st ring) after that. The Wheat spot isn't something to die for (long term it's CRAP), but if the opportunity cost isn't too high it would be nice.

If we only want to pump 2 Settlers in short order we might even want to consider what I mentioned and make it even crappier by settling it on the coast to get a scout WB out pronto, and delay the Marble city. If we're going to get 3 relatively soon then it's probably not worth settling 4th. Up for discussion if we even really want the spot, I guess it'd mostly be for the Wheat hookup.

Something to note is that in the test save ZY is going for SH and delaying his expansion. If our assumption is correct and ZY had Agri and went Mysti 2nd (AI's just loooove their UBs) there's a fair chance of that happening for real. Or did it go already? I haven't touched the real save after my turnset, I'm afraid I'll drop it and it breaks.

 

[Mutineer]

No wanders build as far as I know. Monotheism gone and that about it.

 

[mystyfly]

I like your plan mdy in post 410 However I'm not sure we'll want to plan this far as there can always be events causing changes of plans, and we're not going to play this long turnsets anyway.

I think there is no big rush for mids, we have stone and with a few forests we should get it done in a reasonnable amount of time. Still, if we lose it it's a big loss imo as we'll be running lots of specs and rep would really be a huge boost.

Are you done playing ungy? In that case I'd be up now.

 

[shyuhe]

Yes you're up mysty. Do you mind posting a play plan before starting your turns (although it sounds like it'll be a copy of mdy's )?

 

[mystyfly]

Yes indeed, mdy covers it quite completely I was unsure whether mut wanted to continue but ok. Here we go:

PPP

Tech:
Masonry (2) > AH (4) > Fishing (4) > ?
Numbers in brackets are expected # of turns to finish techs.

I'll pause my set after discovering AH.

Micro:

Spoiler :

Bombay:
T+0: start worker, FIRE SCIENTISTS
T+4: worker built, start settler.
T+11: whip settler for 2 pop.
T+12 settler for wheat built.
We can have another settler built by T+29 here.

Delhi:
T+0: Start granary, start working a grass forest instead of a cottage.
T+5: whip settler for 3pop work 2corn/silver
T+6: settler built for 2 fish overflow into granary
T+7: Finish granary, overflow into settler.
T+9: Settler built with one chop for marble.
T+13: grow size 4, hire scientist.
T+18 grow size 5, hire scientist.
T+23 GS born, grow to size 6, fire scientists, start settler work corn, silver, 2 cottages, forest
T+24: whip settler
T+25 finish settler for rice/floodplains

Shamelessly stolen from mdy . However I'm not quite sure; I am not to fire any scientist in bombay until the 2pop-whip? I'd rather have delhi produce it's GS first as I said earlier.

Unit Actions:
Are we agreed to use the missionary to fogbust and then pop our Food Megacity's borders? Any objections to LTC's proposed spawnbusting?

Worker Actions:
T+0 Conf Miss CANCEL ACTION; worker roads stone
T+1 worker farms fp then CANCEL ACTION
T+2 stone worker builds quarry; fp wkr moves to forest at copper 1S
T+3 worker chops
T+4 new Bombay wkr quarries

T+4 In Delhi fire 1 sci and work a forest hill!!! This gets the chopped settler done in 1t instead of 2t and Delhi starts growing 1t sooner.
Other:
Focus all EPs on just.

OB with zara?

Note zaras sabotage production.

Are we planning on settling to my dotmap? In this case I'll add it to Teh Offical Save (tm).

Anything else?


edit: woot, post # three thousand... and one

 

[LowtherCastle]

Looks good mysty. In Bombay you have to fire the 2sci immediately if you want the worker in 4t, as per mdy's schedule.

edited:
T+0 Conf Miss CANCEL ACTION; worker roads stone
T+1 worker farms fp then CANCEL ACTION
T+2 stone worker builds quarry; fp wkr moves to forest at copper 1S
T+3 worker chops
T+4 new Bombay wkr quarries

T+4 In Delhi fire 1 sci and work a forest hill!!! This gets the chopped settler done in 1t instead of 2t and Delhi starts growing 1t sooner.

Notes:
1. If you auto-move Conf Miss, set him to finish at a half-turn so you remember to move the warrior NW as soon as the Conf Miss gets to the cows.
2. When moving the 2-fish settler, move him via the road toward Bombay (N-NW) !!! This minimizes the chances that forest growth will slow him down a turn.
3. On the warrior moving NE toward the marble region. You might consider pausing him at the forest (2NW) for a turn to see if a barb appears from the northern fog. If it's an archer, better to be in the forest or even retreat and swap with the axe. This risks a barb city spawning, but I'm almost certain there will be some barb up there. OTOH, if a barb city has already spawned, it doesn't matter anyway.

Zara is using his espionage slider now, slowing his research of IW. Do we want him to research slowly or not?

Who is ungy?

 

[mdy]

However I'm not quite sure; I am not to fire any scientist in bombay until the 2pop-whip? I'd rather have delhi produce it's GS first as I said earlier.

I think the Scientists in Bombay should by fired immediately. Partly to help with worker/settler production, but mainly because we don't want to generate a GP there due to GP point pollution from the Oracle. Keeping them even for a few turns would reduce our flexibility with the capital and other cities later.

I agree with LC's fog busting idea. Did he need the warrior to the East of Delhi for this, if not we could send it to explore near the deer, or maybe look for seafood north of Zara?

Are we planning on settling to my dotmap?

Has a dotmap been posted? I have been assuming we would settle 2S of the pigs and 2N of the marble.


I think it would be more efficient to pop our cities borders with an artist in Caste System. Our religion should spread to our cities fairly quickly, the free missionary could be saved for a city the religion won't spread too naturally. This should not have any effect on the next 10 turns however.

 

[mystyfly]

Looks good mysty. In Bombay you have to fire the 2sci immediately if you want the worker in 4t, as per mdy's schedule.

You have a worker turn on T+0 and you need to finish a 44h (in the fat cross) chop for Delhi when you're building the second settler (T+7 or T+8) so Delhi can start growing asap. That worker could road the stone for a turn, then go to the forested hill to chop. He would finish the chop 1 turn too soon (too much overflow on the granary will turn hammers to gold), so he'd have to mine for a turn to delay the chop, but that's okay. The stone must be done by T+9 so Delhi can build the Pyramids while growing, so the new Bombay worker will need to help immediately.

OK will add that to the PPP to make sure I dont forget.

Who is ungy?

meant mut, sorry

Has a dotmap been posted? I have been assuming we would settle 2S of the pigs and 2N of the marble.


I think it would be more efficient to pop our cities borders with an artist in Caste System. Our religion should spread to our cities fairly quickly, the free missionary could be saved for a city the religion won't spread too naturally. This should not have any effect on the next 10 turns however.

Dotmap.

Id say either spread it to our next city or in aksum, I dont think we can switch to caste to pop the border as we'll be whipping.