SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[mystyfly]

Best thing with OR is the availability to build more missionaries. Production bonus to UN is a 1-turn-thing, after this turn we should be able to cashrush it. I was rather thinking of running theo for a few turns to get us some safety-points should there be some more demands or similar unwanted occurences causing some AIs to drop below +8. Better be safe than sorry I'd say...

 

[shyuhe]

Toku is about 10-15 pop bigger than Mehmed right now. Unless he loses a city, it's unlikely that Mehmed will overtake him since Mehmed has crappier land food-wise.

 

[babybluepants]

Can we send a sentry unit to the Justinian-Toku border? It would be good to know if Justinian has a massive stack moving on a poorly defended city, so we know to bribe. Probably won't happen, but just in case...

@mysty,
Yeah, I know it's only 1t at best on the UN build. Theo doesn't really give us anything, though, the way I see it. The target AIs are all on +12 or better already. I think we'll only need it if Islam becomes an issue.

 

[shyuhe]

I lost the chariot near the barb island attacking an axe so there aren't any sentry units around. We can probably ship one of the maces over once we're done taking the furs though.

I think mutineer is up next but not sure if he's around or if he's still busy. I think after mutineer is mdy? So which ever of those two posts the got it first can take the next set.

I would also stay in pacifism through the 2-fish GP. We should probably adopt OR while we're building the UN. We should also adopt theo if we have the chance since we will need Justinian's votes to win right now (or at least last I checked).

 

[mystyfly]

I know that theo doesn't help us... In 11 turns we'll have all GPs we need/want, after that I'd run theo unless we need OR for missionaries. We all know how often the AI make stupid demands like "join us in our pointless war" "cancel deals with our enemy" etc. I see it like this: in 11 turns we don't need more GPs so no need for pac. We don't need OR [unless for missionaries] which will just be costing a lot so why not try to ensure we get everyone's votes?

I see you're building a chariot right now shyuhe - was that intended as a sentry? BTW where are we bringing our maces right now? To our gold city?

 

[shyuhe]

The chariots are the cheapest warrior replacements we can build.

Theocracy will cost about the same as pacifism with unit costs, but it'll get us diplo points so it'll be worth the shift. We are limited by the 3 missionary rule, not the ability to produce missionaries.

I've been bringing units to Zara's capital for shipping to the east and stockpiling stuff in the west in the gold city.

 

[shyuhe]

Also, if someone can show that we won't need to declare on Saladin, I'm fine with ditching the mace builds and just building wealth in all cities (except for missionaries).

 

[mdy]

We wanna convert the workshops 1t before MM. If we can line up a build for max overflow, we'll need 46 base hpt (assuming OR).

At size 16 a GE will give us 1230 hammers, so we will need 270 more. With O.R., and micromanaging for max overflow I estimate we would need to have 68 base hammers a turn in the capital to build it in 1T. I can't see how we can do this even with guilds. If we can do a double oveflow into the U.N. we should be able to complete it 2 turns after the U.N. with a double overflow with or without guilds.

We will need to commit all our existing workers to do this so maybe we should continue building the settler in Oasis, just in case we don't capture any barb workers.

Also, if someone can show that we won't need to declare on Saladin, I'm fine with ditching the mace builds and just building wealth in all cities (except for missionaries).

Japan's pop is 105, Mehmed 83 so we should be O.K. As we are not really in a position to invade Saladin at the moment I suggest abandoning that plan, and using our maces to scout Japan. If we put them in the frontier cities we could donate them to Japan if it looks like Justin will take one of his cities.

How up to date is our information on Japns/Mehmeds maps?

We need to average 742bpt in order to finish in 13t (we could run a scientist in Delhi, at least).

We can reduce this to 12T if we can get 792 beakers a turn. We can do this by:
Running a scientist in the capital, 2 scientists in Bombay, 3 scientists in Sugar, 2 in ivory, 2 in Vansai.
Also switch wealth producing cities, Vansi, and marble to reasearch giving us 801 hammers a turn.

With 2T to build the U.N. This should make our victory date T+24.

I know that theo doesn't help us... In 11 turns we'll have all GPs we need/want, after that I'd run theo unless we need OR for missionaries.

I agree with O.R to give us more missionary building flexibility, and to help with the U.N. Afterwards we may as well switch to theocracy. Nothing else will help us at this point.

 

[mystyfly]

How up to date is our information on Japns/Mehmeds maps?

IIRC shyuhe mentionned in his report he was selling maps, dunno whether he got theirs in return.

How much gold do we need to to finish the UN on the first turn, after the GE was used? If we could get that money we don't need any shops at all.

I guess guilds should be discovered very soon by just, when we are able to get it in trade is another question...

 

[mdy]

How much gold do we need to to finish the UN on the first turn, after the GE was used?

12 gold per hammer which works out as around 2208 gold with no workshops.

 

[shyuhe]

We can push Justinian to friendly with an unbalanced trade (for +4 trade).

I bought Mehmed's maps during the middle of my set or so for 5 gold so it's fairly up-to-date. We should probably send some units around Toku to confirm his city sizes and prepare for an emergency gift. I last scouted his cities when the GP and warrior passed through his lands. But I didn't check the northern cities. We can get a good idea though by trading for Justinian's map.

Will a larger Delhi (or 2-fish for that matter) or mass overflow help? Or are we stuck with a 2 turn build? Not that 2 turns is bad at this stage of the game...

So I think the big tasks at this stage are (1) missionary spread logistics (2) finishing up the barbs and (3) ferrying the warriors and GP to the fur. There are 3-4 workers running around on the barb island and I don't think they get disbanded ever so we should be ok with workers once we capture Zhou.

 

[babybluepants]

How up to date is our information on Japns/Mehmeds maps?

We should just keep buying it periodically.

I suggest abandoning that plan, and using our maces to scout Japan. If we put them in the frontier cities we could donate them to Japan if it looks like Justin will take one of his cities.

Yes, let's do that.

We can reduce this to 12T if we can get 792 beakers a turn. We can do this by:
Running a scientist in the capital, 2 scientists in Bombay, 3 scientists in Sugar, 2 in ivory, 2 in Vansai.
Also switch wealth producing cities, Vansi, and marble to reasearch giving us 801 hammers a turn.

With 2T to build the U.N. This should make our victory date T+24.

I actually get 803bpt for 12t. Probably be good to have a bit of contingency there, too. I think we should try for it.

I agree with O.R to give us more missionary building flexibility, and to help with the U.N. Afterwards we may as well switch to theocracy. Nothing else will help us at this point.

I agree. IIRC what Silu said, the fave civic diplo = 1 + Turns/10. We're getting the last GP on T+9 and ideally voting on T+22. That means we can either go for two points right after the last GP, or we're stuck only getting one. In that case, a Theo switch just before the vote and after we've done the religion spam is best.

I guess guilds should be discovered very soon by just, when we are able to get it in trade is another question...

We just give him an expensive tech and get him to insta-friendly. Let's hope he discovers it. It seems to me like a 1t deal on UN.

Edit: x-post with shyuhe.

 

[babybluepants]

I don't think they get disbanded ever so we should be ok with workers once we capture Zhou.

Is this true? I've been wondering, 'cause I can't really remember the situation from another game.

Will a larger Delhi (or 2-fish for that matter) or mass overflow help? Or are we stuck with a 2 turn build? Not that 2 turns is bad at this stage of the game...

1pop = 30h. I seriously doubt it. Delhi would need at least 3 extra pop to shave a turn, and we'd need to grow that in 12t. Two Fish has no base production unfortunately and we can't grow it fast due to the GP requirement.
2t build is complicated enough in terms of micro. I think shaving a turn from research is more likely.

 

[shyuhe]

Remember that there's about 10 turns of research between liberalism--radio and completing mass media. So we might be able to grow 2-fish somewhat if we farm everything. However, shaving a turn of research may be easier over all... Then again, I don't see our research rate going up much at this point since there are very few cottages that we expect to grow in the relevant time frame, and scientists are way better than vanilla cottages.

Does anybody remember the timing of UN votes? I think it's:

T+0: complete UN; vote for UN chair
T+1: UN chair results
T+9: UN vote
T+10: UN vote results

Is this right? I'm trying to calculate a timetable for when we expect the victory vote to come up to see if we can squeeze out another GP. If we can, that would let us burn a GP on a GA to speed up our earlier research (and GPP generation).

Toku will never sell his maps - we have to manually map his lands. Spreading maces around his cities is probably a good way. We should scout Justinian's stack too, so that we can respond appropriately (namely, stopping a war the turn it starts).

Build-wise, how about:

Delhi: missionary spam/research
Ivory: missionary spam (if barb island doesn't get spread), otherwise wealth/research
All other cities: wealth. Hire scientists in favor of production tiles where possible.

Military:
Conquer barb island and capture workers. Send military at gold city to Toku's land and look for Justinian's stack.

GP: Continue with current plan. Make sure rice pops BEFORE 2-fish. Hire scientists in all other cities to increase bpt.

Missionaries: Send two missionaries to barb island, then spam homeland. Building a welcoming port may speed up missionary transfer logistics since you can unload without movement point penalties through a fort.

Diplo: Maintain trade routes with everyone. Feel free to re-negotiate trade deals (but don't touch the silk/dye trades for now). Don't declare war.

Does anybody know if an AI will demand that you cancel trades against an AI that you just negotiated a trade with? I don't know if this works code-wise, but if you are in the 10-turn grace period, are you immune from AI demands to cancel trades? If so, we should keep on re-negotiating resource sales to Toku every 8-9 turns to avoid any trade cancellation demands.

 

[shyuhe]

Is this true? I've been wondering, 'cause I can't really remember the situation from another game.

I think this is a moot point. The barb workers were all holed up in Zhou at the end of my set. I think they felt threatened under the code so went to the nearest city.

1pop = 30h. I seriously doubt it. Delhi would need at least 3 extra pop to shave a turn, and we'd need to grow that in 12t. Two Fish has no base production unfortunately and we can't grow it fast due to the GP requirement.
2t build is complicated enough in terms of micro. I think shaving a turn from research is more likely.

It sounds like we should just go with a 2 turn build then, and workshop accordingly. It looks like we might get guilds from Justinian before mass media is completed.

 

[babybluepants]

Does anybody remember the timing of UN votes? I think it's:

T+0: complete UN; vote for UN chair
T+1: UN chair results
T+9: UN vote
T+10: UN vote results

The results should be on T+9, for victory on T+10.

Send two missionaries to barb island, then spam homeland.

If we were going OR in 10t, we could build one in Devil's Gate - maybe whip it complete after MM is researched. Not sure if that helps logistics at all.

 

[shyuhe]

It's probably safer to send two to to Devil's Gate anyways in case one fails. If we only get one spread, then yes we can spam the other missionary when we're in OR for the UN.

In terms of homeland spreading, I'd complete the road to Varanasi and send the first missionary there (so that Delhi can build #3 while #1 and #2 set sail). After that, sugar should be next followed by other homeland cities with gold city coming last. We can always gift away gold city to Saladin if we can't get a spread there in time.

 

[mdy]

If we don't adopt OR, I think it will delay the U.N. by 1 turn, as we shouldn't need the extra boost from theocracy I think we should go for OR.

I actually get 803bpt for 12t. Probably be good to have a bit of contingency there, too. I think we should try for it.

We had 801 beakers with the MM I posted so this should not be a problem.



I agree with shyuhe's religion spread plan.

 

[babybluepants]

I'm trying to calculate a timetable for when we expect the victory vote to come up to see if we can squeeze out another GP. If we can, that would let us burn a GP on a GA to speed up our earlier research (and GPP generation).

I was looking at the same thing, but it just doesn't seem possible.

 

[shyuhe]

I was looking at the same thing, but it just doesn't seem possible.

I think it might be possible but I need the actual beaker and GPP numbers to calculate it (plus a calculation of our bpt in a golden age). Marble may be able to pop a great person fast enough for us to reach fur in time. Alternatively, we may be able to get the economics GM fast enough to ship to fur as well (less likely).