SGOTM 11 - Phoenix Rising

[lymond]

I was thinking Spies too, but we haven't exactly been pushin' the EPs. AP could be good. I hope Justin builds it.

I'm not sure if obsoleting ivory is a factor. I think it still exists as a resource, but loses its bonuses. Becomes basically worthless in the eyes of the AI. They would practically give it away.

I think we do need a few more units, especially some spears. I don't want to build a bunch of units that will be outdated shortly, but we do have to get the power rating up a bit and be better prepared for any attacks. We can work units in piecemeal while building other things. Will often not a great hammer bonus you do get some overflow on builds.

Privateers are fun. Only thing to keep in mind is that once you use them the AI tends to use them. Hopefully we will have a good lead on them.

 

[cripp7]

The simplest way is either spies or vassels. Or restricting them out from the free religion civics. Means no SP for someone. Spies to change civics and religions. With vassels you demand it. The Ap would help stop the Toku wars.

don't you mean FR? Being in SP doesn't effect the religion aspect.

We just need to ensure if we vassel we dont cross over domination win point.

The other danger is the Ai tech too far and obsolete ivory!

Don't need to go over that limit for sure, and the tech obsolete their use use for it so they'll just trade it away.

Lets get out a 2nd galley and start spreading conf or xtian to the AI.

In terms of toku the only -ne dipo points is due to the war. trading MC will help us get triremes. I also see privateers as quite useful too. Lets not over do the axe/spear side and wait to see what paper reveals.

Isn't they preferred religion for most of the AIs xtian? We're only supposed to have 2 AIs with 'You declared war on us' so Toku doesn't count since he declared on us atm, but we have to choose which 2 to declare on. Hopefully maps will bring in what we need.

oh, city plans look good to me!

 

[Jaybone]

yeah, AIs can't obsolete ivory for us, we would have to obsolete it by researching too far. I do think once we get this Toku stuff taken care of we need to get some caravels out there and explore the wider world

 

[Gumbolt]

I was thinking Spies too, but we haven't exactly been pushin' the EPs. AP could be good. I hope Justin builds it.

I'm not sure if obsoleting ivory is a factor. I think it still exists as a resource, but loses its bonuses. Becomes basically worthless in the eyes of the AI. They would practically give it away.

I think we do need a few more units, especially some spears. I don't want to build a bunch of units that will be outdated shortly, but we do have to get the power rating up a bit and be better prepared for any attacks. We can work units in piecemeal while building other things. Will often not a great hammer bonus you do get some overflow on builds.

Privateers are fun. Only thing to keep in mind is that once you use them the AI tends to use them. Hopefully we will have a good lead on them.

AlanH is clear in games rules about ivory. 'Unless you do something stupid like obsolete ivory'. So game should be over before 1800ad.

PN can build a barracks and a few spears and swords. Not a huge issue. I still think Toku will talk after 10 turns. We are close to that now!

I think lets spread Xtian religion then if it is the Ai fav. Gift a few missionaries. Again PN could do this. Not sure it has the right buildings!

Key for next round is reaching paper and stopping Toku war. When we have paper we should end round and decide on next step for game.

Do we want to test more or do a plan till paper??

Can we decide where we want HE? I still think capital but VR or Roc could be interesting locations.

Danger of laying new sugar city is Toku map attack it albeit unlikely.

In regards to privateers. I am not thinking about pillaging harbours as we don't want Ai whipping ships. More to prevent the AI grabbing key resources like fur!

 

[Gumbolt]

In terms of EP. We could start running spies and run slider for EP at point where we have done all the teching we need to win. If we get a great spy we dump for ep points and abuse this. Lots of options but lets get paper first!!

Shall i do a 7-8 turn plan?

 

[Gumbolt]

Outline of a possible plan.

PN - barracks spear/axe/worker. A worker could be useful (3 turns). Running research would speed up paper. Lots of choices here. Would need xtian monstary for missionaries.

Roc. Finish worboat. Could whip it. Build another workboat using over flow.

Gulltown - Switch to WB. Chop forest and mine hill. Then granary!

PC - continue build of NE. Chop forest. Consider worker whip to add to NE build. Could 3 pop whip at some point too. Lots of options here. Overflow into a building

VR. Finish Settler. Grow to size 7. Consider 1/2workers. Can we irrigate the food resource some how? We could also run research. Once iron finished work and road incense.

BC - grow to size 3 use all floodplains for commerce. Build library.

PP grow to size 4. When size 4 use iron for lighthouse.

Sal has a galley on his borders. He may try to grab sugar city! Hmmm. Could cancel open borders. Suspect tied in for ten turns.

I note Spanish religion is at 20% of world. Far too much coverage to just cover her 5 cities.

We can move more units to the coastal cities. Some units already on move.

I would guess 8-10+ turns for paper pending how we run PN and VR. At some point we need to consider court houses.

Next gp is in 10 turns and only 50% scientist.

We could change religious civic to pacifism. OR would allow us to build missionaries more. Could also switch to caste but whipping will be useful in PC and a few other cities.

This is a basic plan we can adapt really.

 

[Gumbolt]

I think Kadazzle is working on getting buffy working. I think he will be joining. All good stuff.

As a side thought if we wanted espionage running spies gives +4 science. Biology could also be useful for us at some point pending how game pans out and if we need it.

Growing cities in next 15-20 turns will be key if we want to whip universities long term.

 

[cripp7]

Switch to Pac, and get a xtian monastery to start pumping out missionaries. We need to combat Izzy's religion %.

Plan looks good, oh, we need a settler quick to get the sugar site before Sal!

 

[Jaybone]

A couple of thoughts

1. Did we ever get the settler out of PC? When Toku declared he was 3-4 turns away from completion. May be worthwhile to get him out to get the Moai site up and running as well as sugar site

2. I would keep building troops in PN for this turnset just in case something untoward happens

If we're going to spread christianity, no time like the present. I think we should stay out of state religion for the time so we can have OB with everyone

 

[Gumbolt]

A couple of thoughts

1. Did we ever get the settler out of PC? When Toku declared he was 3-4 turns away from completion. May be worthwhile to get him out to get the Moai site up and running as well as sugar site

2. I would keep building troops in PN for this turnset just in case something untoward happens

If we're going to spread christianity, no time like the present. I think we should stay out of state religion for the time so we can have OB with everyone

Have you viewed latest save Jaybone?

Yes Moai site is up and running. Should have done sugar site first as Sal already has galley ready. Lost focus due to the war! 2nd settler is about a turn or so off.

I think our open borders are fixed for 10 turns. We could use PN as a unit pump till paper. Downside is they are mostly obsolete units till we get catapults. I think Toku will take peace at 10 turn mark.

Spreading xtianity requires OR or monst in cap and VR.

 

[Gumbolt]

Switch to Pac, and get a xtian monastery to start pumping out missionaries. We need to combat Izzy's religion %.

Plan looks good, oh, we need a settler quick to get the sugar site before Sal!

Settler is 2 turns off. I suspect we are too late for that site. Opened borders too soon. See what happens.

 

[lymond]

If Sal is in fact sending a settler up there, I think we can beat him to it:

1) We don't even need to whip settler - it finishes in two turns and galley will be in place to pick him up 1nw of spice in 3 turns. (Send Settler onto spice for pickup in 1 turn)
2) Settle on grassland jungle 1e of south sugar. This gives the city 3 hills for mines/windmills, the 2 sugars, and can still work fish as needed.
3) Sal will take 4 turns to get 1 tile from the island (and therefore will need another turn to land)
4) We can get our settler on land in 4, thus beating Sal to the spot.


I'm going to run some tests using the last test save I created. Right now I'm going to test how cities look over time and optimal hammer cities. I don't feel like doing a lot of work on the test saves until we get some maps. It's quite a bit of work.

Let's keep in mind that we are not in a Religion. Pac does nothing for us at the moment except maybe lower maintenance. OR is okay from the standpoint of building missionaries, but if you only have xtian in 2 cities it may not be worth it. Theo is giving us much needed diplo at the moment and, unfortunately, may be the civic we need to be in a lot this game.

Pac will be good for GAs

 

[lymond]

Also, we may want to switch back to Caste for a bit by the time that settler lands to run an artist for a couple of turns (I know we have monuments but quick border pops are nice). We can switch back to slavery later, if needed. By that time PC can run a few extra scientists.

We need a few WBs too.

 

[Gumbolt]

Outline of a possible plan.

PN - barracks spear/sword/sword. A worker could be useful (3 turns). Running research would speed up paper. Lots of choices here. Would need xtian monstary for missionaries.

Roc. Finish worboat. Could whip it. Build another workboat using over flow.

Gulltown - Switch to WB. Chop forest and mine hill. Then granary!

PC - continue build of NE. Chop forest. Consider worker whip to add to NE build. Could 3 pop whip at some point too. Lots of options here. Overflow into a building

VR. Finish Settler. Grow to size 7. Consider 1/2workers. Can we irrigate the food resource some how? We could also run research. Once iron finished work and road incense.

BC - grow to size 3 use all floodplains for commerce. Build library.

PP grow to size 4. When size 4 use iron for lighthouse.

Sal has a galley on his borders. He may try to grab sugar city! Hmmm. Could cancel open borders. Suspect tied in for ten turns.

I note Spanish religion is at 20% of world. Far too much coverage to just cover her 5 cities.

We can move more units to the coastal cities. Some units already on move.

I would guess 8-10+ turns for paper pending how we run PN and VR. At some point we need to consider court houses.

Next gp is in 10 turns and only 50% scientist.

We could change religious civic to pacifism. OR would allow us to build missionaries more. Could also switch to caste but whipping will be useful in PC and a few other cities.

This is a basic plan we can adapt really.

In terms of getting a higher power rating this is interesting.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/demographics.php

Note Heroic epic gets 8000 points on power rating. Swords/axe 6000. Spearmen are 4000. Is it worth building a barracks/chariot then HE in capital. The HE would boost our power rating. We could build a swords before the HE for extra units. Note once HE is in we could pump out more units. The immediate threat is obviously a worry.

We could make a switch and try HE in VR making capital free to do other things. Would allow VR time to grow.

My main concern with above is where would we be producing any workers??

We need some more comments on the plan. Switching to caste may restrict whipping of work boats. Whipping of NE could be important in 5 or so turns.

 

[Gumbolt]

We could do 3-5 turns in caste to mix in with when new city on island is up and running to run a artist? I still think we should whip NE to get our second GP farm online. Huge boost to GS. Capital is heavily diluted. Remember we may need slavery if Toku lands a new stack.

When and should roc city whip workboat? Should we just grow it and build work boat elsewhere or slow build? Growing this city would be useful. Certainly whipping Roc won't help us grow the cities.

Remember diplomatic win is also based on population too! Is having lots of smaller cities going to help if we go that route or is it based on number of pop base. I should think a size 20 city would give 3 x population compared to 3 size 8 cities.
Overall we need to mix growth with city development. For instance is the clam city more important to get up and running compared to the roc city?

In terms of the other city I wasn't considering whipping the settler. The galley is too far off for that.

If we are staying out of a religion the religious civics do little for us in the short term. Theo gives diplo boost and that is about it without a religion.

Towards Izzy there is a possible barb galley too. Not sure if we should consider how to explore this land.

 

[Gumbolt]

Other decisions. Cows near PC. Use for PC or Gulltown? PC for building NE. We could just whip this anyway.

Cows in Gulltown for production and growth. PC could use a cottage on FP if we switch. It will need workboat granary/Light house too.

HE - 12 turns in VR and 7 in PN. VR could use 1-2 chops.

VR could on flipside use the 1-2 forest to chop workers. Speed it up a bit and use chop for worker while it grows.

PP could chop forest to help build light house too. This city really needs to grow I think. The Iron will help.

Still think PC should build NE while it grows.

Think BC plan is fine.

So worker priorities. FP near PC/ Incense near VR. Chop forest near VR.

Chop forest near PP. Chop forest near gulltown.

PN are we cottaging or farming? Are we late on cottaging?
Do we need workshops anywhere?

So much to decide!!!

 

[lymond]

I've run a test to around 1100AD or so. I'll post some data or screenshots on VR and PN and Gull. VR and PN are very comparable as far as base hammers when VR is grown full. Of course, PN still has the bureau bonus, but we may not always be in bureau. Gull/Maoi hasn't fully matured yet but will have decent hammers relatively - all depends on how many workshops we build. Gull could be a great Globe City though.

Anyway, need time to set this up and put brain to work.

By the way, I wasn't too focused on techs and such, although I tried to maximize merchants and scientists in Delhi and PC respectively. Point is it seemed like I spit out a lot of GPs. Also, got in Ox by 500AD or so and Lib by 800AD.

quick answer on above ? re workshops - I think we want as many of them as we can get as long as they can be worked. VR can get some next to the wheat (which will never be irrigated) - with a windmill on plains hill, chain farms, VR can grow into the workshops and all the hills. Later Bio and Guilds/Chem/Rep Parts will make this a nice hammer city.

 

[Jaybone]

can't view the save as I'm out of town, just typing things I can think of.

 

[Gumbolt]

can't view the save as I'm out of town, just typing things I can think of.

I'll load some pics tomorrow if that would help?

Kadazzle has emailed me to say he is emailing AlanH to join team. Not sure if he has Buffy working yet. Hope so.

Update!! Email has been sent to AlanH but waiting reply. I see no reason why Kadazzle can't join game. Hopefully he is up and running with Buffy and can join our rota.

 

[Gumbolt]

Okies a few helpful images if this helps. Not done all the cities. Just the main ones.

Upper map

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Lower map

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Diplomatic screen

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Tech Screen

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Vulture Ridge

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P Creek

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Our Glorious capital P Nest.

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