SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[I. Larkin]

"Note tao shows loss of 1 turn culture pre 1550BC . "
They may do Palace jump...

 

[Abegweit]

Well, it is true. But in our home productive area is small. We need second core somewhere.
Question is will this core with Palace or FP?
Unfortunatly we know littel about other lands.
But in general, at the end of neck of dessert (14, 0) or (15, 0) may be a good place for Palace. We may settle very rear in half - circle of size 14. Three Cities, say.

This is not vanilla. We need corrupt cities and a palace jump makes that impossible. An ideal location for an FP would be inland at a settler factory site.

 

[Abegweit]

Not necessarily, all we can say at this time is they lost 4 turns of culture in their last turnset to our 5 - they may still have anarchy turns remaining.
Psycho bunnies lost 1 turn of culture pre550BC and another 5 the following turn

Note tao shows loss of 1 turn culture pre 1550BC .
This suggests they revolted 11 or 12 turns before us.

I think you read this wrong. We revolted in 1250 BC. They revolted in 1225BC, which we could have done too.

 

[I. Larkin]

This is not vanilla. We need corrupt cities and a palace jump makes that impossible. An ideal location for an FP would be inland at a settler factory site.

What do you mean? Anyhow, we have to have second core.

 

[Andronicus]

Anyhow, we have to have second core.

Any "second core" is minor in C3C compared to Vanilla / PTW.
The FP city would get low corruption (depends on getting leader) and there would be some benefit to surrounding cities making them only semi corruptive provided their rank was not destroyed by too many cities closer to palace.
This would give benefits over local FP if the lands around our FP are very good. I'm yet to be convinced they are anything special. Meanwhile this comes at cost of avoiding extra cities in north (grey in particular could be a productive city). It is still a reasonable option not to have second core and build FP locally when we require it (or rush build it).

 

[Andronicus]

I think you read this wrong. We revolted in 1250 BC. They revolted in 1225BC, which we could have done too.

Tao accumulated 18 culture in 10 turns till 1500BC and 16 in 10 turns till 1250BC, thats a loss of 2 culture 1 turnset and 4 culture the next. My explanation is they revolted in 1600BC for 3 turn anarchy. We revolted in 1250BC 12 turns later.

 

[Andronicus]

Focus
What do we need - conquor our neighbours
Both India and Japan have UU which will make them harder targets once they learn chivalry. Getting to them before they get pikes is a bonus, although iron pillaging may help if we get there before pikes built.
Teams taking them out (or at least putting a sig dent in them) before chivalry will have an advantage.
I therefore think we need to concentrate a horse force to bring to India ASAP. At least 5, preferably 10 with sev impy support.
To do this we need roading of route to India and delay any FP until strike force built. We can expect losses, so regular reinforcements will be required for some time.

 

[I. Larkin]

Here is example of Palace Jump. (FP in U, and palace Jump at (14, -1))
Upper digit corruption before Jump and denominator - after. Idea of jump is the belif, that it is good land behind x>16, and those Cities will be very productive after jump. As figures showed, native core will not suffer too much.

 

[I. Larkin]

Focus
What do we need - conquor our neighbours
Both India and Japan have UU which will make them harder targets once they learn chivalry. Getting to them before they get pikes is a bonus, although iron pillaging may help if we get there before pikes built.
Teams taking them out (or at least putting a sig dent in them) before chivalry will have an advantage.
I therefore think we need to concentrate a horse force to bring to India ASAP. At least 5, preferably 10 with sev impy support.
To do this we need roading of route to India and delay any FP until strike force built. We can expect losses, so regular reinforcements will be required for some time.

Sure. All this exersises with palace Jump good only with GL. Before that we have to start war. Then get GL; then another... but first we have to finish "REX". Not sure that we want "Gold".

 

[Andronicus]

Here is example of Palace Jump. (FP in U, and palace Jump at (14, -1))
Upper digit corruption before Jump and denominator - after. Idea of jump is the belif, that it is good land behind x>16, and those Cities will be very productive after jump. As figures showed, native core will not suffer too much.

I see nothing visible around (14,-1) that appeals to me as base for palace - just desert and coast. Surely if we are going to the trouble of establishing a second base which makes our developed core corrupt (albeit not very corrupt) we would need to find a very favourable area to establish this new base in. The difficulty is we cannot see such a base and do not know if one even exists. I prefer we continue to develop what we know we have and get the most out of it, if a wonderous site appears and we have a leader at the time then is the time for detailed analysis - if at that time it meant disbanding a desert city to help our empire as a whole we can always rush a size 1 settler.
Planning for a second base that may never occur distracts us from maximising our return from what we currently have and can see we can get.
Are we being guilty of "the grass is always greener on the other side " argument?

 

[Andronicus]

On another toopic - I will be away from this Saturday until Sunday 2 weeks later.
I'll be in Western Australia orienteering next week, then going to Coonabarraban for the 24 hour orienteering world champs the following week.
Not sure on internet access - hopefully be able to contribute to the discussion, but will be unable to download saves or play turns from 30/09/2006 - 14/10/2006

 

[I. Larkin]

I see nothing visible around (14,-1) that appeals to me as base for palace - just desert and coast. Surely if we are going to the trouble of establishing a second base which makes our developed core corrupt (albeit not very corrupt) we would need to find a very favourable area to establish this new base in. The difficulty is we cannot see such a base and do not know if one even exists. I prefer we continue to develop what we know we have and get the most out of it, if a wonderous site appears and we have a leader at the time then is the time for detailed analysis - if at that time it meant disbanding a desert city to help our empire as a whole we can always rush a size 1 settler.
Planning for a second base that may never occur distracts us from maximising our return from what we currently have and can see we can get.
Are we being guilty of "the grass is always greener on the other side " argument?

I am not saying, that "it is a plan".
This is just numerical modeling that give answer "what will happend If". That may help to understand: do we need FP now (NO), and if GL where. Answer is "it depend".
From general point it is sensible idea to consider second core: Our home land is too small to have both FP and Palace. Half-circle of of radius 23 from Delhi to Thebes may be very productive in a future. And if put Palace along x axes it will not harm native core very much. OK, we can disband Grey, but we have to know about it. Do you have any plans on military production and war?

 

[Abegweit]

Flogging a dead horse time.

The only way to have two cores in C3C is to have a large uninhabited zone around the capital. This only makes sense when, as here, there is a large dead zone when no useful cities can be placed.

SGOTM8 was ideal for this purpose. The first attachment shows the layout of the home continent. The core around the Palace is in red and the core around the FP in blue. The yellow line shows the forbidden zone. All cities built inside the that "circle" will degrade the quality of the FP zone. Thus it is important not to build in the mountains and the FP should be in the centre of the upper peninsula. Further north is the science farm.

The second attachment shows the equivalent situation in our current game. We would have to set up the forbidden zone at a radius of about 30 from Zimbabwe and then choose a small region on the main continent to serve as our FP core. I've given a couple of examples. All the rest of the area under the arc should remain uninhabited to protect the quality of the second core. Once again, the science farms lie to the north.

This is why a Palace Jump is unthinkable. The forbidden zone would now be centered on the continent, eliminating the possibility of farming most of it. The alternative, which is possible, is to jump both the Palace and the FP and then make a single standard egg-shaped core.

This possibility has implications for our GA. If we plan to jump to the continent, we should concentrate on soldiers. If we are going to stay here, with or without a second core, we need infra - harbour and ducts.
We need to have our Impis out exploring.

 

[I. Larkin]

Idea is to have FP in U, and make jump to desert. (Or deeper to continent).
Yellow FP core, Red- palace mini-core big Pink circle is Forbiden zone.

 

[Abegweit]

Why would you want your palace in a desert?

 

[Abegweit]

Tao accumulated 18 culture in 10 turns till 1500BC and 16 in 10 turns till 1250BC, thats a loss of 2 culture 1 turnset and 4 culture the next. My explanation is they revolted in 1600BC for 3 turn anarchy. We revolted in 1250BC 12 turns later.

I took a closer look and you are indeed quite right.

 

[I. Larkin]

Why would you want your palace in a desert?

The deeper you jump the larger Forbiden zone is. But if land there is good, may be better to jump there.

 

[Abegweit]

The deeper you jump the larger Forbiden zone is.

Right. So the chocie is between bad lands and wasted territory, which is why a Palace jump is wrong unless you take your whole civ with you. I did it in two GOTMs with good success. It is possible that we might want to do it this time too. Dunno. Have to see what's out there, but my gut tells me we will probably want to go.

Discussion is premature other than the question of what to build during our GA. If we stay here, we need infra. If we go, we need soldiers.

 

[I. Larkin]

Right. So the chocie is between bad lands and wasted territory, which is why a Palace jump is wrong unless you take your whole civ with you. I did it in two GOTMs with good success. It is possible that we might want to do it this time too. Dunno. Have to see what's out there, but my gut tells me we will probably want to go.

Discussion is premature other than the question of what to build during our GA. If we stay here, we need infra. If we go, we need soldiers.

You may leave 12-14 Cities in old land and they will be productive with FP. Plus 3-4 Cities inside Red Circle. Also many Cities outside of Pink border. (In remote future.)

 

[I. Larkin]

Can anybody look at this: may be it deserve to publish as "Article"?
Here are the formulas. I have removed factors which don't apply to our case (communal corruption, commercial trait, etc).

Nopt = 20 * (.8 + 3/8*Nwe + 0.25*Ni ) (1)

Cd = (0.5^Ni * Gd) / 50 (2)


Cr = Max{R / (2 * Nopt), R / ( Nopt)-1/2} (3)


C = Min( Cd + Cr, .9 ) (4)

Where:
Gd = distance from nearest corruption-reducing building
Nwe = 1 if FP, 0 otherwise
Ni = 1 if court, 0 otherwise
Cd = Corruption from distance
Cr = Corruption from rank
C = Total corruption

With FP, no court, Nopt = 20 * (.8 + .375 ) = 23
W/O FP, no court, Nopt = 20 *.8 = 16
With FP, court, Nopt = 20 * (.8 + .375 + .25 ) = 28
W/O FP, court, Nopt = 20 *(.8 + .25 ) = 21



Let see what follows from this formula in general. The Question is how to organize CORE or 2 Cores with less corruption.

1) Definition (1): Core Cities are the Cities with corruption are less 0.9

2) Definition (2); Good Core placement is placement with minimum Rank Corruption.

Example: if there are 28 Cities in a Good Core, their Ranks are {0, …, 27}

(Question, btw, is rank starts from 1 or 0?)

3) Lemma: Total Rank Corruption of Good Core independent on Palace and FP location and City location itself.

Proof: Formula (3) gives exact expression that depend only on total City number in the Good Core. For example above (28 Cities, FP, no Courts)

CRtotal=8.43=843%. In City of R=27 Cr= 0.67



4) Distance corruption. Best possible arrangement (for given Cities density) are two discs. Distance between disks does not matter. If Disks overlap we simply lose space.

Approximate amount of total distance corruption for two disks is (N1 D1 + N2 D2)/75, where N number of City in disk and D disk radius. If disk is not round, or Palace and/or FP located not in the centre it increases total corruption.



5) Forbidden Zone: Huge Disk of radius D_0+D_2 is a forbidden zone, where no Cities should exists not to increase Rank corruption in FP zone. Exception is FP and Palace zones (Disks 1 and 2)

6) Fine-tuning: We actually want not to minimize corruption, but increase production. Normally Palace Zone better developed. Therefore better to have more Cities in Palace zone. Also FP cup (30% max corruption) in a favour to have it Rank 26 or above.

7) Ideal location therefore looks as 25 Cities in Palace disk of Radius 8-9 and 5-6 Cities in FP disk. Actually it is reasonable to put FP in most remote Core City.