SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[I. Larkin]

An embassy is probably a good idea. Sooner or later someone else is going to cross the gap. It doesn't really need to be said but anyway... In the meantime, keep those galleys moving!

main question War or Peace? (I prefer war). With MA or not? (I think with)
Look, techs are very "ortogonal": Egypt may trade Monarchy for C+C from Russia. (Have no idea why few turns before they did not...)

 

[Andronicus]

Another thing come to me: AllanH wrote, that peace will be "altogether".
E.G. if we make peace with Korea we will get peace with all others.
I don't know, but probably we will have 20 turn "peace deal" with all Block members. Do we want it?

That is my understanding explaining why when 1 AI signed peace, all did.
This means currently we are at war with China block with no alliance and no war betweeen the alliances - there is no ongoing benefit for us unlesswe can put the hurt on to extort better peace price. With our current military that is a while away. Therefore peace with Koreans for no cost is best exit from current war, then ASAP get most advantageous situation for gpt deals with all bar 1 then dow the 1 we have no deals with, preferably with units at ready to invade their territory and immediately cancel our gpt payments. Re-activating an alliance to keep the 2 factions at war also makes sense (if they have cash we can buy it for gpt first). It apears that any alliance we make is broken as soon as any of the AI partners decide to make peace (as all then make peace) meaning we dont need to worry about being dragged into long alliances.
We should be able to siphon off all AI gold with this technique. I agree with Ivan that our avail gpt will be insufficient for purchasing techs. Our options include adding some cash (which obviously we lose) or tech trade if we have something they dont. Other option is to start investing some beakers into engineering to bring the cost down. I favour this latter approach as the earlier we reach MT the earlier I believe we will reach the domination limit.

Yes I am up, if we can reach agreemnet on the way forward I could play this evening, if I cant play then I'll need a skip as I will be away in less than 24 hours from now.

 

[Andronicus]

main question War or Peace? (I prefer war). With MA or not? (I think with)

I agree war, but for the arguments presented above. With MA as much as possible, but I'd be willing to be at war with both factions if we get sig advantage from it (plus factions on other continents). Getting out of wars when needed should be easier as we only neeed to pay the cheapest price that any of the alliance partners offer (or get the best price if we have given them some hurt)

 

[I. Larkin]

most advantageous situation for gpt deals with all bar 1 then dow the 1 we have no deals with, preferably with units at ready to invade their territory and immediately cancel our gpt payments.
1) We have to wait 20 turns when peace deals will over or rep will hit.
2) With this India's Spear we even can' t scout East.
Our options include adding some cash (which obviously we lose) or tech trade if we have something they dont. Other option is to start investing some beakers into engineering to bring the cost down. I favour this latter approach as the earlier we reach MT the earlier I believe we will reach the domination limit.
I like this idea, but not sure that it is indeed good.

 

[I. Larkin]

I think our mini SoD should work somehow. We at least have to kill this spear.
Not sure about China City and Alliance. Alliance is good if we make RoP few turns after.
What do you think about Dot Map? After some thinking I see that you grey dot is good indeed.

 

[Andronicus]

1) We have to wait 20 turns when peace deals will over or rep will hit.
2) With this India's Spear we even can' t scout East.

1) No - we only have peace deal with the civ we make peace with (eg now make peace treaty with Korea). Allied AI automatically will be at peace with us. We can then dow China, Japan or India as we would have no peace treaty with them, similarly they could / would dow us if they had, for example, units adjacent to an undefended city.
My understanding is the peace treaty is with the 1 civ only, but brings immediate peace with all allies. This makes it open to manipulation by the human players - you can bet every other team is analysing how best to take advantage of this situation.
2) Unless we drop off unit with galley there. However I agree getting a horse strike force should be goal of next turn set, then using it to get access to main part of continent.

Also worth considering a galley to north with perhaps an impi which could be dropped off in Egypt territory and do some scouting whilst at peace, and be able to pillage (from outside territory) to bring Cleo's allies into war should that be advantageous (eg having just made gpt payments for Cathy or Otto's free tech)

Regards research
I recommend getting to cavs ASAP
We have poor research capability and I dont fancy building libs
Pointy stick will undoubtably be part of our plan, but I suggest part researching a tech so we can afford the remainder with false gpt deal (eg 42gpt at present will not extract Engineering from Koreans - perhaps 5 or 6 turns research of Engineering will bring the price down so that we can buy with our gpt and imed dow Korean ally to cancel the payment. Similarly part researching feud should allow our gpt potential to purchase the tech long before we would actually research it.
Buying gold with gpt and dowing ally can help fund our unit support costs and allow larger expenditure on research. This should become easier once we have all contacts and can hopefully keep buying all AI gold.
This is similar to Klarius's technique of funding research with gpt for gold payments to keep reseach at max except we dont make the gpt repayments .

 

[Andronicus]

What do you think about Dot Map? After some thinking I see that you grey dot is good indeed.

Well my opinion hasnt changed
I feel moving core for long term gain risky if game not that long
I would like to keep settling useful cities in our area including grey dot, green dot and gold hill (irrigating surrounding grass to support scientists). We are at the point where we need to decide whether we continue to expand or not
Further cities will help our economy with greater unit support. Yes I would like Cleo's cities for her luxes, but that will not be immed, so large cities are still some way off.

 

[Abegweit]

However I agree getting a horse strike force should be goal of next turn set, then using it to get access to main part of continent.

Yes. Several more turnsets too.

Regards research
I recommend getting to cavs ASAP
We have poor research capability and I dont fancy building libs

Totally agreed about the libs. We are a Monarchy with poor lands and libs are a poor investment under the best circumstances. While obviously it would be better to have cavs against spears, this is not realistic. I want horses against spears for as long as possible. IOW, get us military and slow down the research rate.

 

[Abegweit]

I feel moving core for long term gain risky if game not that long

IMO, moving the core could have a very quick payback but that depends on the lands we might be able to move it to. This is about number-crunching when the time comes. This discussion is waaay too premature at this point.

I would like to keep settling useful cities in our area including grey dot, green dot and gold hill (irrigating surrounding grass to support scientists). We are at the point where we need to decide whether we continue to expand or not
Further cities will help our economy with greater unit support.

I would prefer to emphasize military over cities, especially garbage cities. All the good ones have already been founded and there will be lots of space for science farms once we start to take some territory.

 

[Andronicus]

IMO, moving the core could have a very quick payback but that depends on the lands we might be able to move it to. This is about number-crunching when the time comes. This discussion is waaay too premature at this point.
I would prefer to emphasize military over cities, especially garbage cities. All the good ones have already been founded and there will be lots of space for science farms once we start to take some territory.

The question about moving core is relevant now as if we are at all planning on moving core then infrastructure like granary in Bapedi does not make good sense. I would rather switch to galley to drop an impi north to scout out Cleo's lands and fire off mpp's when appropriate. Bapedi could then go to rax / military, a mined gems or 2 boosting both production and commerce (note gems wasted if both Z and B have granaries as benefit of granary maximised by emphasizing food not shields). Z will soon operate as 6 turn 3 worker - horse factory as previously described (once goat mountain and 1 hill mined), other towns with need to reduce size for lux can insert the occasional settler (esp Hlobane with its granary)
I agree the number one emphasis now must be military (horsies), but use of our precious excess food for workers in Z and settlers elswhere should be a secondary goal.

 

[Andronicus]

I want horses against spears for as long as possible. IOW, get us military and slow down the research rate.

I cant see feudalism remaining unknown for long - then pillaging iron will be critical

 

[Abegweit]

The question about moving core is relevant now as if we are at all planning on moving core then infrastructure like granary in Bapedi does not make good sense.

Agreed totally. I have already made this point several times. If we want to move, then we should concentrate on military. If we want to stay, we should concentrate on infra. This is especially important during our GA since, given our shield-poor home and our commerce-poor govt, we will never get a second chance to build the ducts and harbours we will need.

My gut feel is that we need to move. Other than the capital, I do not like these lands. I am sure that we can find better on the mainland.

 

[Abegweit]

I cant see feudalism remaining unknown for long - then pillaging iron will be critical

I'm beginning to appreciate Impis.

 

[Paul#42]

Let's play our game to its strength:

- Military, that's horses and Impis. Knights, when pikes show up.
- little research
- no buildings except barracks.
- diplomacy at its best: Make war and peace whenever we can gain a profit.

However we might have to research some techs (chivalry, MT) to get ahead of AI, so we will have to plant lots of specialist (junk) towns - but only building settlers if a town is growing too far. Z however could use it's surplus to work hills and gem mountains when we have no need for workers anymore.

Right now we should use our techs to keep AI from trading between themselves. Unbalanced states like now between Russia (-CoL, -Mon), Egypt (-Curr, -Cons) and India (-Mon) should not result in trades between them.

I do not mind having our GA started the next turnset to get a necessary boost for production.

EDIT: Our continent will most likely build Sun Tzu's and Leo's. It will be high priority to capture them quickly. TGW also, if necessary. And of course Pyramides... and Great Library...

EDIT2: The two seperate AI blocks won't meet before astronomy with that ocean between them, right?
Would an AI w/o lighthouse cross the ocean tile?
Would the lighthouse owner cross it?
Would it be worth blocking it then? Four galleys would be sufficient to block sea and coast tiles. Or would they sail around it?

EDIT3: I see trouble to slow down Korean research. We can't hit them other then by alliance (with Russia) and they can end those treaties quickly (as soon as they will "talk") by paying techs to the backward civs, resulting in the opposite of what we want. However we should get Egineering soon from them so we can make war again - that's slightly better then having them all peaceful...
So that backs up Andro's plan to research on Eng to make it cheaper...
Anyway, what do we need all that money for

 

[Andronicus]

Sorry guys but I'm going to have to ask for a skip - thought I'd be able to play my turns this evening but work dragged on long with my preparing for holidays . Its now 10.40 and I'd be rushing it to do my turns and post my log tonight.

@ Paul - I like your idea of a galley block to keep the continents apart. My belief is if the AI cannot make a safe crossing it wont attempt. We are yet to meet Vikings and English who are both seafaring so that has to be taken into consideration.

Will be chiming in with my thoughts as often as can get to internet.

Roster
Abegweit - on deck
I. Larkin
Paul#42 - just played
Andronicus - skipped till 16/10
markh - UP

 

[Paul#42]

Sorry guys but I'm going to have to ask for a skip

That's quite a pity, we'll miss your playing and planning. I hope we get your advice every now and then. Enjoy your holiday.

 

[markh]

Enjoy your holidays.

I will have a look tonight and post questions if I have any. Probably I will build a bunch of horses for the next player to do some damage.

Regarding the diplomatic situation I am not sure as I did not have a look at the save, so I am not up to date and cannot judge.

 

[Paul#42]

@ Paul - I like your idea of a galley block to keep the continents apart. My belief is if the AI cannot make a safe crossing it wont attempt.

I wonder if they would pass such a block if they have to cross a sea / ocean tile and their turn ends on coastal water? Anybody sure about that?
That would mean our block would have to be one galley thicker - 6 tiles safe movement would mean c-s-o-s-c which could bypass three coastal tiles on a straight coast, so we'd have to block four adjacent coastal tiles...
No wait, there are spots where two galleys are sufficient. W and NW (or SW) of Intombe is such a spot. 5N and 4N-NW of Intombe is the other.

 

[I. Larkin]

1) No - we only have peace deal with the civ we make peace with (eg now make peace treaty with Korea). Allied AI automatically will be at peace with us. We can then dow China, Japan or India as we would have no peace treaty with them, similarly they could / would dow us if they had, for example, units adjacent to an undefended city.
My understanding is the peace treaty is with the 1 civ only, but brings immediate peace with all allies. This makes it open to manipulation by the human players - you can bet every other team is analysing how best to take advantage of this situation.
.

I think you are wrong. Look: we have war. Then we get peace. As a result program will swich on 20 turn peace deal. It does not matter that we "did not negotiate this deal". You may ask AlanH directly, just in case. That's why Pauls move to make war was wrong. Now we are in constrain.

 

[I. Larkin]

The question about moving core is relevant now as if we are at all planning on moving core then infrastructure like granary in Bapedi does not make good sense.

Agreed totally. I have already made this point several times. If we want to move, then we should concentrate on military. If we want to stay, we should concentrate on infra. This is especially important during our GA since, given our shield-poor home and our commerce-poor govt, we will never get a second chance to build the ducts and harbours we will need.

My gut feel is that we need to move. Other than the capital, I do not like these lands. I am sure that we can find better on the mainland.

So, can we decide: are we stay or move? I think we may stay and have second core on mainland. If you read my post about corruption you may understand that "second core" is real.
And we will have it in main land. Very later we may adjust Home core moving Palace to Ulundi.