SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Abegweit]

I was talking about moving everything, palace and FP. Not just the FP (just the palace is insane). However, it is premature to make this decision.

Everyone seems to be in favour of training troops. This is the right move if we decide to pull up camp. IMO, it would be serious mistake if we kept this core. However, since I think (but do not know) that we should move, I agree about the troops. That's the only decision I care about now.

 

[I. Larkin]

Let's play our game to its strength:

- Military, that's horses and Impis. Knights, when pikes show up.
- little research
- no buildings except barracks.
- diplomacy at its best: Make war and peace whenever we can gain a profit.

EDIT3: I see trouble to slow down Korean research. We can't hit them other then by alliance (with Russia) and they can end those treaties quickly (as soon as they will "talk") by paying techs to the backward civs, resulting in the opposite of what we want. However we should get Egineering soon from them so we can make war again - that's slightly better then having them all peaceful...
So that backs up Andro's plan to research on Eng to make it cheaper...
Anyway, what do we need all that money for

I also have no idea how this small civ did so good. However, I recomend to bring Cleo vs Mao to Alliance (fo currency and construction.)
AIs will be at rank's:
1) Korea 2) Cleo 3) India 4) Japan 5) Mao 6) Russia. 7)Otto. Well, not all that simple. Otto has Monarchy, actually. Dunno...

 

[I. Larkin]

I was talking about moving everything, palace and FP. Not just the FP (just the palace is insane). However, it is premature to make this decision.

1) Everyone seems to be in favour of training troops. This is the right move if we decide to pull up camp.
2) IMO, it would be serious mistake if we kept this core. However, since I think (but do not know) that we should move, I agree about the troops. That's the only decision I care about now.

1) So the gist out of it is: Galley in Babedy (instead of granary).
2) I disagree. We impouve our land so good, that it will take long time to prepare the same.

 

[I. Larkin]

I'm beginning to appreciate Impis.

Agha...

 

[Andronicus]

POsting from airport lounge
Had thought going on from Paul's idea of blocking connection between AI blocks and Abegweit's desire for better lands.

If we build horse as fast as possible (using excess money to shortrush) we have a small window of oportunity until feud is in and our horses will be battling.
OTOH if other continent(s) civs remain backward we could conceivably take over that entire area (or a large enough chunk of it) with horses (there would be less civs than share our land mass) making opportunity for earlier shift of core. This war would hopefully produce those mythical creatures MGLs which were so absent last SGOTM.
One threat to the 2 regions meeting is the seafaring civs England and Scandinavia whom we are yet to meet - should these be on a 3rd continent more separate from the rest it may complicate things. The main threat however would be the builder of GLH who will be able to bypass any blockade (since they would be able to start from any sea tile and cross safely any 6 tile ocean gap).

Worth a thought.

@ Ivan.
I dont know exactly what happens when we make peace with one civ, whether that means 20 turn peace treaty with all allies - I had thought not but I have no experience with alliances. If someone can give a definite answer it would clarify the potential strategies. If we have to wait out the 20 turns it gets more difficult and getting max advantage every 20 turns would be important. Also we would want "always renegotiate deals" swirtched off so we didnt get locked into another 20 turn peace deal when first one came up for renewal. One way to bring a premature end to peace treaty is make AI furious then demand leave our territory. By setting up gpt deals the turn before with their allies we would then be dependent upon the trespassing AI declaring or risk a longer gpt payment.
The other option is to declare whilst in peace treaty anyway blowing our rep. We could continue to behave dastardly but would this damage our trading rep and prevent us from making gpt payments?

 

[markh]

I started to play and made peace with Korea. Now the foreign advisor says that the peace treaty for 20 turns is valid for each civ of the block, so I think we would hit our rep if we dow on an ally of Korea. Am I right ?

 

[Paul#42]

I started to play and made peace with Korea. Now the foreign advisor says that the peace treaty for 20 turns is valid for each civ of the block, so I think we would hit our rep if we dow on an ally of Korea. Am I right ?

I fear so...
But otherwise it would have been too easy...

So we are at peace with India and China, too...

Maybe it's really time to prepare an attack on Egypt...

 

[Abegweit]

Maybe it's really time to prepare an attack on Egypt...

It would appear that we are sort of forced to go in this direction.

 

[markh]

File is uploaded.

0) 750BC : move a warrior from Ulundi to Mpondo for MP
spot new borders North of Germany
establish an embassy in Istanbul, Otto is 4 turns from completing the Oracle

IBT : Zimbabwe : horseman -> horseman
Mpondo : horseman -> horseman
The Vikings complete The Oracle

1) 730BC : horse kills barb horse at Zimbabwe
archer kills barb horse North of Mpondo
horse kills barb warrior North of Mpondo

contact with America, they are very backward
make peace with Korea, we are now at peace with the whole block for 20 turns. The advisor says 20 turns with EACH single one, so I think we would hit our rep if we dow now on one of the allies

IBT : a barb horse suicied on our horse
a barb galley redlines our galley at America, but we are victorious

Abe asks us to leave his shores

Ulundi : worker -> horse
Bapedi : galley -> galley
Intombe : worker -> galley

Philadelphia completes The Colossus

2) 710BC : archer kills barb horse North of Mpondo

IBT : nothing

3) 690BC : archer kills barb horse at Zimbabwe
found Umtata -> worker
horse mops uo the barb camp North of Mpondo

meet the Vikings, they lack currency and monarchy

IBT : Zimbabwe : horseman -> horseman
Isandhlwana : horseman -> impi

4) 670BC : nothing

Russia has feudalism

IBT : nothing

5) 650BC : worker actions

IBT : nothing

6) 630BC : not much

IBT : barb horse kills one of our horsemen in the mountains of Zimbabwe
Zimbabwe : horseman -> settler
Mpondo : horseman -> impi

7) 610BC : horseman kills barb horse at Zimbabwe
horseman kills the second barb horse in that area

Cathy knows literature

IBT : barb galley sinks one of our galleys
Ulundi : horseman -> horsman
Isandhlwana : impi -> worker

8) 590BC : not much

IBT : Tugela : worker -> barracks

9) 570BC : horseman kills barb horse

IBT : we sink a barb galley
Zimbabwe : settler -> horseman
Isnadhlwana : worker -> horseman

10) 550BC : just moving units

I have started to move units NW towards Egypt. Two galleys are finishing next IBT on that side, so we can ship units in Egyptian territory.

 

[Abegweit]

POsting from airport lounge
Had thought going on from Paul's idea of blocking connection between AI blocks and Abegweit's desire for better lands.

If we build horse as fast as possible (using excess money to shortrush) we have a small window of oportunity until feud is in and our horses will be battling.
OTOH if other continent(s) civs remain backward we could conceivably take over that entire area (or a large enough chunk of it) with horses (there would be less civs than share our land mass) making opportunity for earlier shift of core. This war would hopefully produce those mythical creatures MGLs which were so absent last SGOTM.

I like this idea. Audacious. We need to decide this before moving on.

On that note, am I up or can you take a turn?

 

[I. Larkin]

Sure, cash rush as a must at present situation. I think you know how: Rush second turn to spear, and then swich back to horse. I think we may invest smth to Feudalism and try to make gpt deal with Russia before land at Egipt.
Is this stupid Indian spear on?
Also, we may take cash from Vikings and declare to German...

 

[Paul#42]

I like this idea. Audacious. We need to decide this before moving on.

Audacious?

On that note, am I up or can you take a turn?

Roster
Abegweit - UP
I. Larkin
Paul#42
Andronicus - skipped till 16/10
markh - just had some nice barb hunting

Andro has left us for nearly 3 weeks

I see no benefit in research @min right now. Those 27 beakers invested won't give us much of a discount. 18g instead would have been more valuable for us. Especially if we go for a different tech first.

To spare unit support I would suggest to found another 3-4 specialist towns on those gold hills and around there. And some RCP1-2 towns N of Z. Or would the letter increase corruption in our productive towns too much?

 

[Andronicus]

Andro has left us for nearly 3 weeks

Not left you, just cant access civ so cant play my turns

I see no benefit in research @min right now. Those 27 beakers invested won't give us much of a discount. 18g instead would have been more valuable for us. Especially if we go for a different tech first.

Agree, but my thought is spend some money short rushing horsies for a few turns, then once have strong enough army (I suggest 2 impi and 10 horses), ship them over to Germany (my vote) or Egypt, whoever we decide the real war is against. Once those units produced put beakers into science to bring down cost of feud and engineering to affordable price. Following purchase of these techs (and cancelling gpt payment where poossible with dow on ally) we can bee-line for MT

To spare unit support I would suggest to found another 3-4 specialist towns on those gold hills and around there. And some RCP1-2 towns N of Z. Or would the letter increase corruption in our productive towns too much?

Agree - I cant see where mark settled Umtata, I presume orange dot (would love some screenies since I cant access the saves) but I still would go for green dot and grey dot in addition to SE "specialist farms". Both green dot and grey dot require some prep before they have tiles to use so sending a settler down to SE before AI decide to visit might be best.

Also, we may take cash from Vikings and declare to German...

Yes - what is the arrangement of alliances? If we dont know we need embassy (cant recall if we have one). Still 2 civs to meet English and one other (cant recall who we're up against)
Who has cash amongst other continent civs?

 

[I. Larkin]

1) Agree, but my thought is spend some money short rushing horsies for a few turns, then once have strong enough army (I suggest 2 impi and 10 horses), ship them over to Germany (my vote) or Egypt, whoever we decide the real war is against. Once those units produced put beakers into science to bring down cost of feud and engineering to affordable price. Following purchase of these techs (and cancelling gpt payment where poossible with dow on ally) we can bee-line for MT

2) Agree - I cant see where mark settled Umtata, I presume orange dot (would love some screenies since I cant access the saves) but I still would go for green dot and grey dot in addition to SE "specialist farms". Both green dot and grey dot require some prep before they have tiles to use so sending a settler down to SE before AI decide to visit might be best.

3) Yes - what is the arrangement of alliances? If we dont know we need embassy (cant recall if we have one). Still 2 civs to meet English and one other (cant recall who we're up against)
4) Who has cash amongst other continent civs?

1) I think overseas war better carry out with swords. We may buil a lot of warriors and upgrade. Our "virtual gpt" is about 76 gpt. It is enough to buy 1 non-monopoly Tech. When we strike somebody we will use it. I hope Russia will trade Eng for Feu and we get smth and declare to Egypt. It is important to support fire of war, I think we may do the same with second faction after peace treaty expire. Unfortunatly again our war will be "virtual", because desert neck is blocked.
2) Things close to my post 416 (picture). "Ora" settled 1SE from picture. He also have settler to settel Grey dot in 2 turns. Grey dot is so good (irrigate GL and mine hills) that it is OK for RCP3. Pink dot is very harmfull because of corruption in south. Babedy and Itombe need harbors. It is cheap and useful for sea battels. I think Tempel in Babedy also will help. Blue and Green will support our military operation. I moved them a bit North, not to interfere with south productive area.
3) We do not need embassy to sea LAs. German, France and Vikings are locked. Unknown are English and Arabs. AllanH have sense of humor when uninited English, Arabs and Americans to one block. But we know only Americans now.
4) Vicking have a lot! 409. French have and Germany some (29 and 24). So declaration to Germany or France equally good. Next step may be Emb in Wash and MA vs "All". My filling, that empty Galley is enough to trig MPP.

Important to scout inland area. We may send Galley with Impy to unload IBT China, Japan and India. It is very difficult to make any plans without information.

 

[I. Larkin]

I did some calculation that follows from
"Corruption formulas"
Distribution between Palace and FP zone showed at plot vs total Cities number: Red dots is number of Cities in Palace zone, Blue dots are numbers of Cities in FP that have Rank less then FP City and the rest is in Green zone. (Sum of Green, Blue and red equal to total Cities Number)
Picture below show approximate Cities placement. Obviosly it should close to circle form, preferably without overlap. Drawback of this placement that huge forbiden zone appear, where no Cities are allowed.
Maximum of corruption in the dark blue dot. (Apper right diagram) It reach 90% at ntot=28. Lower right Diagramm is Total corruption (at Optimal City Placement) It is above 600% at ntot=20 and 1200% at ntot =28. Therefore it is not sensible to have more then 20-24 Cities in Core(s).
It also shows, that we have "close to optimal" arrangement for ntot=22.
I think we have developed our Palace Core so good that now we only have to decide will it be FP zone or Palace? (I think Palace in Ulundi later on).
Second question where second (FP) core? Distance does not matter, but size is important (Radius about 10-12 in Fraxis units).
for golden adge we should have aqueducts in main Cities and Marketplace in Zimbabwe. I think better to start it in 15-20 turns.

 

[Paul#42]

I did some calculation that follows from "Corruption formulas"

Nice work. I hope I find time soon to check and understand that...

For golden adge we should have aqueducts in main Cities and Marketplace in Zimbabwe. I think better to start it in 15-20 turns.

duct & market in Z would be 200 shields = 20 turns without military. Are you sure we will get an ROI on that soon? Not sure abpout the duct there. Food and lux are limiting factors there, growth might be limited to size 8 for some time...

Market in Bapedi would also make sense.

 

[I. Larkin]

1)Nice work. I hope I find time soon to check and understand that...

2) duct & market in Z would be 200 shields = 20 turns without military. Are you sure we will get an ROI on that soon? Not sure abpout the duct there. Food and lux are limiting factors there, growth might be limited to size 8 for some time...

3) Market in Bapedi would also make sense.

1) I am going to write doc file that explain this pictures.
2) With cash in hand we have we can have Duck and Market in 4 turns each:
1.Start to build corthouse, 2. Rush corthouse and swich to Duckt, 3. 4. Dukct compleat in 4 turns. It will costs only 280 Gold.
The same with Market. At GA this mprouvements is a must. Market also will let us make more virtual deals.
3) Yes, but harbor and Temple (Lib) first.

 

[Paul#42]

2) With cash in hand we have we can have Duck and Market in 4 turns each:
1.Start to build corthouse, 2. Rush corthouse and swich to Duckt, 3. 4. Dukct compleat in 4 turns. It will costs only 280 Gold.
The same with Market. At GA this mprouvements is a must. Market also will let us make more virtual deals.

I know the mechanics of short rushing.
Market will bring us approximately 5gpt at size 6 (~7 if we work both gems), that's a ROI of 56 (40) turns. At size 10 market and duct might gain us an extra 10 gpt resulting in the same ROI.
For the shields invested (30 each in 3 turns each) we would have another two horses (or three if short rushed for 120g).
Do we expect the game to last many more than 50 turns? I do. So market first, than duct. Indeed best before GA, we won't reach 20spt in Z during GA so 10spt is best for short rushing.

3) Yes, but harbor and Temple (Lib) first.

Yes, we should have a harbor there. I do not like temples other than for 20k, but lib does not make more sense - so we should take the temple there.

 

[I. Larkin]

I think Duckt in Zimbabwe better first. (More support, more Taxemens for virtual money). I think you miscalculate Market benefit in Zimbabwe. It is more then 6 gpt. Will check.

 

[Paul#42]

Right now Z has 12 commmerce pt. at size 4 working the gems. At size 6 it would be 14 (if working only one gem to grow further). 2-3 of those are spent for luxury. For remaining 11-12 a market will add 50% = 6 gpt. Upkeep for market = 1gpt, so benefit is 5gpt.

For a duct similar. We will get some more commerce and probably the second gem working - this should end up with some 20 commerce pt. So market will bring benefit ~10 gpt. But of course the resulting increase of production is important too, so a duct is due anyway.

And a market also, once we find another luxury resource the market will increase happiness, too.

So let's build both. However I think market first, but I'm not married with that idea...

The question is: When? Some more settlers first, the horse-3-worker-combo for some turns or the growth right now?
Imo the casual workers from other towns (w or w/o granary) should be sufficient and we should let Z grow as soon as we know how to cope with unhappiness there.
To hook up a second lux might take some time.
3 MPs would be fine, maybe reg warriors from corrupt towns?
Any thoughts on that?