SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Abegweit]

Another explanation is that they may have settled Ulundi 2E of Zimb. I considered this as my prefered site but didnt say anything as Ulundi already built. Norther location has advantages of boat access to the north and can use 2 hills for later improved productive power

I guess I should have stopped, then. Apologies to all. I think, though, that my choice turned out better even though it might not have been clear at the same. 3NE of Z will serve your purpose just fine and fits in nicely with both Z and U. 2E is a really tight build. Still I should have stopped. Sorry.

If we have iron avail

I was referring to upgrading horses to knights. Hopefully, by then we have stuck a claim to some. What I'd really like to see right now is horses, but we can make do with archers if necessary.

Archer completes on IT before building 2 settlers. We dont need to grow to size 5 yet as dont have enough developed tiles to utilise (would just be using unimproved grassland). I plan using Z between sizes 2 and 4, MMing to grow without wastage every 4 turns.

Agreed. That is the proper size of the city. 5-6 shields per turn is efficient.

have a dot map I can upload if people want (just wary about too many dot maps confusing everyone)

Please do. I find the opposite. Not having a dot map is what is so confusing. This is why all these different suggestions are going nowhere.

 

[Paul#42]

pink dot is harder to connect, I'd prefer blue dot first.

another thing: How do we best operate our 8-turn-settler factory?

Assumed: We can't get 10 spt at size 4. If the forest (chop soon!) reveals a BG, it will be easy. We could get 2 archers and a settler then.

a suggestion
base: BG and CC for 3 spt, +2 fpt.
additional:
4 turns at size 4
1x6, 2x7 for an archer, 1x8 for a warrior (+2 on growth)
first turn: cow (2s), G (1s) = 6s, 3f
2nd & 3rd turn: goat (2s), 2G (2s) = 7s, 2f
last turn: cow (2s), goat (2s), G (1s) + forest on growth = 10s, 3f

4 turns at size 5
4x7 (last with +3fpt) for a settler.
first two turns: goat (2s), 2 G (2s) = 7s, 2f
last two turns: cow (2s), 2 G (2s) = 7s, 3f

we must make sure to work the cow on the last turn to benefit from the forest.
Any other suggestions (or mistakes) to get the gems (+4 commerce) in for some turns?

 

[Paul#42]

Wait! Did I start mining our water-way?!?
Please stop that worker! He needs to mine his grasslands somewhere else!

Sorry, I did not think about bringing water to the cow in the mid terms.
This wasted one worker's turn. Sorry

 

[I. Larkin]

I only see 10 SPT on size 5 at 2 fpt...

 

[Abegweit]

Wait! Did I start mining our water-way?!?

Saw that, but didn't think it worth commenting on. But now that you brought it up... Mining the waterway is not necessarily a bad thing. We need mines now and it can always be changed later, Actually I object more to your choice of tile. Mining 1E would have been more efficient in moving the worker towards RedDot and BlueDot (whereever the hell they are...)

 

[I. Larkin]

Wait! Did I start mining our water-way?!?
Please stop that worker! He needs to mine his grasslands somewhere else!

Sorry, I did not think about bringing water to the cow in the mid terms.
This wasted one worker's turn. Sorry

Please, don't panic! We may plant forest (after Eng) and irrigate next. Water is a littel use at Despotism.

 

[Paul#42]

I only see 10 SPT on size 5 at 2 fpt...

We get
1 from the City Center,
2 from the mined cow,
2 from the mined BG,
2 from the goat,
1 from a mined grassland and
2 from the forest on growth (with a food surplus of 3)
that's 10 shields on size 4.

 

[Paul#42]

Please, don't panic! We may plant forest (after Eng) and irrigate next. Water is a littel use at Despotism.

I had hoped to get the water there way before republic and engineering...

I would really change that worker. Now it's just one (of 6!) turns lost. he could rather go W-S to (-2,-1) to road and mine that tile - depends on where next settler after founding red dot goes.

Mining 1E would have been more efficient in moving the worker towards RedDot and BlueDot (whereever the hell they are...)

good example for efficiency! Did not think that far

 

[I. Larkin]

OK, I count:
0 1 from the City Center,
1 2 from the mined cow,
2 2 from the mined BG,
3 2 from the goat,
4 1 from a mined grassland and
5 2 from the forest on growth (with a food surplus of 3)
So, it iz size 5!

 

[Paul#42]

So, it iz size 5!

But it's size 4 when you adjust it. However you like it... Somewhere in between...

 

[Paul#42]

However we may decide to stay with the mined cow (and the grass being mined) - I'm not sure about it. I consider it worth the effort to carry water all that way - but it's just a weak preference.

I know I should plead the other way to save my face...

 

[Abegweit]

The problems with Z at size 4-5 instead of 2-3 are the following:

1) It costs a settler to get up to size. That's huge. An entire city has to wait for eight turns. And every one after that has to wait too. We are slowing our entire civ down by this amount (aside from whatever U can contribute, which is small in comparison to Z).

2) We waste growth by working the forest.

3) We waste more growth by not sharing the cow with PurpleDot.

4) It requires the lux slider, further slowing our game down.

5) 5 and 6 shields are efficient 5x6 = a settler. 4x5 = an archer. Admittedly that's 9 turns, not 8 but these things can be fiddled with by popping out a worker and/or an extra archer every now and then.

6) You have not show what you plan to do when Z is not making 10 spt.

The last three considerations are in themselves sufficient. The first three are simply huge. REX, not contacts. REX, not military. We need REX.

I'm not saying we should never do this; getting Z to 10 spt is desirable. But it is far too early.

 

[Paul#42]

2) We waste growth by working the forest.

3) We waste more growth by not sharing the cow with PurpleDot.

6) You have not show what you plan to do when Z is not making 10 spt.

I think you refer to my post #107. Please read #102 more thoroughly. I admit I'm posting too much...
We build a warrior in the last turn of size 4. The first three turns at size 4 are used to build an archer (6,7,7).
I only use the forest on growth.
Of the 8 turn-cycle we share the cow 4 turns and the goat 3 turns.

You are right about the delay by 8 turns (more?). But on the other hand we get 2 commerce from the extra tiles. Setting the lux slider to 10% does not have any effect on smaller towns. Only at size 4 or 5, when they will need it too. In those eight turns of growth we can build up to 3 archers for other issues. Don't tell me we won't need them - although I don't know yet for what...

EDIT: The warrior only makes sense if we find Iron soon. But if we find horses, we could build a horse at size 4 and a settler at size 5.

EDIT #2: We may found another 2-3 towns before going into a similar cycle but I think working the sf at size 4-6 makes most use of our shield rich start. At least when we get to founding those corrupt towns we did not even plan yet. Then it is more like having a productive town that issues a settler, when it can't grow further.

 

[Abegweit]

I think you refer to my post #107. Please read #102 more thoroughly. I admit I'm posting too much...
We build a warrior in the last turn of size 4. The first three turns at size 4 are used to build an archer (6,7,7).
I only use the forest on growth.
Of the 8 turn-cycle we share the cow 4 turns and the goat 3 turns.

I read it and understood it. You are quite right that it is possible to to get 31 gold at size 4 without stealing the cow. We just have to mine the other waterway tile The part I misunderstood is what happens at size 5. I thought the idea was to continue making 10 spt. Apparently, your idea is rather to build a four-turn settler. This cycle makes sense. I am still against growing the city and delaying our REX. After three or four more cities are founded (our most valuable ones)... fine.

Edit: crosspost. I think we have agreement?

 

[I. Larkin]

Roaming Barbarians may be a problem. It is more efficient to defend compact area then many scatered Cities. From anothe hand, the more land we grab the less space for Barbs... I thik we may build Red dot City and then build some military. It wiil increase income due to Barb Farming...

 

[Paul#42]

Edit: crosspost. I think we have agreement?

Yes, I think after 2-3 settlers from now we should build some more archers to grow to size 4. If it's 3-4 settlers it's still okay with me.

Roaming Barbarians may be a problem. It is more efficient to defend compact area then many scatered Cities. From anothe hand, the more land we grab the less space for Barbs...

At least by the middle ages uprisings we should control our whole continent. Those can be painful...
Before that our archers should be fair to cope with some camps. Maybe we even use some as training camp - if we do not need the money.

About taking up a loan: I agree this might be something we should do. I would rather do it to Egypt than to India for two reasons: We could chose our time when to attack India and Cleo might cancel the contract to our favor if they are allied with Gandhi when we attack him.
Of course we could also change our partner, first borrow from Gandhi and then later from Cleo when she has more money. That might make sense. At least we could research at 100% which might be the difference on a close race to Writing, Philosophy and CoL / Poly.
However our gpt might also speed up their research. It might backfire. But this only applies to one rival while the positive effect on our research applies to us (and by that to all rivals).

I say: We should give it a try! Borrow as much money as we will need for 10 turns of 100% research from Gandhi for a start. Calculated with 3 granaries plus paying back we should take as much as we can get for 4 gpt.

 

[Abegweit]

At least we could research at 100% which might be the difference on a close race to Writing, Philosophy and CoL / Poly.

It won't be 100%. If we, for example, trade 33g for 2gpt, that is 7g less in our pocket. The only time it could speed up our research is at the very end where it could reduce the time to Philo by a turn or two. Typically, it will slow it down. Hiring scientists, as Heinrickzoom did last time, could also help. I wouldn't be against such stunts at that point. Shaving a turn or two could be worth a lot.

As a general principle, thought, I'd rather get the money by trading Writing or CoL at the right time. Then we have both the cash and the gpt. As Andronicus noted, this trick will also speed up the AI research rate which, in this game, we don't want.

 

[Paul#42]

It won't be 100%. If we, for example, trade 33g for 2gpt, that is 7g less in our pocket.

That's what I also thought at first. But if - after eg 16 turns - we take another loan of say 50g for 3gpt, we can spend another while at higher research rate - of course at costs of the future. But in that future we might have such a deal cancelled by our attack of the lender's ally.

keys imo are:
1. do not start too high because the rise would be too fast and the benefit for the ai's research too high.
2. concentrate on one rival whom you do not trust to research too fast. Speeding him up won't hurt too much.

yet I would only consider using this if we don't get a monopoly on Writing and cannot keep our high research pace - or if we plan to attack an ally of our lender .

 

[Abegweit]

yet I would only consider using this if we don't get a monopoly on Writing and cannot keep our high research pace - or if we plan to attack an ally of our lender .

I certainly agree that any discussion of this is premature. If we get a monopoly on Writing, it's pointless too.

 

[Abegweit]

Back to the thread. I assume this does not have to be said but...

1) Z should be switched to a settler. Unfortunately, it is one shield short of building it in two turns. Therefore the goat should be given to U, allowing it to finish its granary sooner.

2) the mine should be allowed to finish. It is only two turns away and it will be useful.