SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Paul#42]

@Andronicus
I don’t like the idea of a city 2N of Z at all. I understand the desire to get water to the cow but building a garbage city which cannot grow and then abandoning it is a huge cost for such a small gain. Z will be able to grow in three turns instead of four; in exchange we lose a shield. While clearly the extra growth is valuable, the cost is simply too high.

That's a good reasoning. I suggest to get the water from the east in the long run. That settler (bound for 10 turns) can do better things with quicker ROI...

[...] Orange needs to move, perhaps w-sw. Being on the ocean is more important than being on the lake. Nw would give us both the sea and the lake. It's tight but it's probably best.

Nw is not on the sea. That orange town I do not see growing to size 7. Being on the lake is not so necessary imo (I do not see it building ships either ).

 

[Abegweit]

That's a good reasoning. I suggest to get the water from the east in the long run. That settler (bound for 10 turns) can do better things with quicker ROI...

Yeah. I think so. In the long run, the tiles between Z and U should be irrigated anyway.

Nw is not on the sea.

You're right, of course.

That orange town I do not see growing to size 7. Being on the lake is not so necessary imo (I do not see it building ships either ).

You're right about ships, but harbours are nice...

 

[Andronicus]

@Andronicus
I don’t like the idea of a city 2N of Z at all. I understand the desire to get water to the cow but building a garbage city which cannot grow and then abandoning it is a huge cost for such a small gain. Z will be able to grow in three turns instead of four; in exchange we lose a shield. While clearly the extra growth is valuable, the cost is simply too high. Once we have four or five more cities down, we can consider using your trick. Not now. Personally, I’d forget the water until we’re out of despo and can start to work the mountains.

OK, I'm not entirely convinced though

In any case, our first priority has to be the sheep location where irrigation doesn’t have the same sort of cost as it does in Z. Blue dot is next.

Blue after red ... or perhaps pink?
Pink will be less corrupt (after connecting) and would be potential site for GLH

yellow should remain where I had it, one north of your location. Orange needs to move, perhaps w-sw. Being on the ocean is more important than being on the lake. Nw would give us both the sea and the lake. It's tight but it's probably best.

You're right about yellow - I didnt realise I moved your position
W-SW works for me for orange, though this far out it wont be such an important city

I’m OK with the idea of a granary in U. If we do this, the next build in Z should be a worker. We need a second one quite badly. I’d really rather get the worker first though. Then Z builds red dot. Seems to me that new cities are more important than speeding up the granary in U.

I tried to do an analysis of merits of worker first or granary first but too many variables. Basically have to compare relative merits of earlier worker versus increased growth from earlier granary.

 

[Abegweit]

I tried to do an analysis of merits of worker first or granary first but too many variables. Basically have to compare relative merits of earlier worker versus increased growth from earlier granary.

Yeah. I agree. Let's leave to Ivan, then. One consideration is favour of worker first is finances. We only have one gold. Getting cities up instead of granaries will help with that.

 

[I. Larkin]

Yeah. I agree. Let's leave to Ivan, then. One consideration is favour of worker first is finances. We only have one gold. Getting cities up instead of granaries will help with that.
I playied, and did worker. Sorry for long wait, but server was down.
Will upload in a minute and write turlog soon.
Ivan

 

[Paul#42]

Will upload in a minute and write turlog soon.
Ivan

a minute is over, I guess. I stop waiting and crawl into my bed...

 

[I. Larkin]

Sorry, internet terrible today. It is in

 

[I. Larkin]

Sorry, only doc file

 

[I. Larkin]

OK, it was difficult mathematics… On the table I posted it
was small mistake, we start from 15, not 18. Also year was wrong.
Correct things looks as:
0 3000*BC 1 15 3 15 Granary
1 2950*BC 1 18 3 18 Granary
2 2900*BC 2 0 5 23 Granary
3 2850*BC 2 3 5 28 Granary
4 2800*BC 2 6 5 33 Granary
5 2750*BC 2 9 5 38 Granary
6 2710*BC 2 12 5 43 Granary
7 2670*BC 2 15 5 48 Granary
8 2630*BC 2 18 5 53 Granary
9 2590*BC 3 0 7 60 Granary

As you can see, we may have granary at turn 9, but our “granary” will be empty. One of the options was to work on Gems

0 3000*BC 1 15 3 15 Granary
1 2950*BC 1 18 3 18 Granary
2 2900*BC 2 0 5 23 Granary
3 2850*BC 2 3 5 28 Granary
4 2800*BC 2 6 5 33 Granary
5 2750*BC 2 9 5 38 Granary
6 2710*BC 2 12 5 43 Granary
7 2670*BC 2 15 5 48 Granary
8 2630*BC 2 16 4 52 Granary (Gem Work)
9 2590*BC 2 17 4 56 Granary (Gem Work)
10 2550*BC 2 18 4 60 Granary (Gem Work)

That I did as a result. In Ulundi I did wealth 2 turns and switch to worker to get it at the same turn when Ulundi grow.

0 3000*BC Warrior goes scouting. See Oysters.
1 2950*BC Warrior from ulundy to Zimbabwe.
2 2900*BC Wealth in Ulundi
3 2850*BC Worker (1 spt)
4 2800*BC Worker (3spt)
5 2750*BC Scout met Indians. They have all first level techs, including ours. No trade possible.
6 2710*BC Worker in U ready. Went to Zim BG. India’s spears stay and do not let go. I think we need curragh.
7 2670*BC Worker finish U BG. What to do next? If internet would be on I’d ask for advice. It was 3 natural possibility: 1) To mine road’s GL;2) Cut forest to help Granary3) Road Goats4) Road GemsI have chosen latest.
8 2630*BC Spears do not move.
9 2590*BC Worker arrived to Gems
10 2550*BC Granary ready. Alpha Researched. Worker road.
OK, Zimbabwe now works on Sea, to have good research output. Next turn it have to micro-managed again. I think Ulundi have to return to Granary, but Zimbabwe may build Curragh instead of settler. Our next City I’d like to have at (-2, 4) NW of Violet dot. Near forest[\b], lake and Sea.
When Worker finish Road Gems (8 turns from now) Settler will arrive to Forest at 1 turn. Next, worker will cut forest to get curragh at 3-4 turns. Second Curragh will sail to Egyptians.

Finally, I do not understand this discussion about Irrigating Cow.
At my experience water never come through the hills, it does not matter with the City or not. Probably it is new in Conquest?

 

[Abegweit]

A quiet set of turns. So we have Indians to the northeast and Yellow still hasn't appeared...

I would have built to the east instead of roading the gem, but your route is not a bad decision. In view of your choice, purple becomes more valuable. Perhaps we should build it before RedDot? This definitely would conserve worker turns.

The curragh needs to be changed to a granary. At this point REX is more important than contacts. All the latter would give us is a discount on Writing - and I really don't want to discover that we have one. Furthermore, I don't think we will. Furthermore, our curraghs should come out of towns to the east and west, not one in the heart of the bay.

 

[Abegweit]

Finally, I do not understand this discussion about Irrigating Cow. At my experience water never come through the hills, it does not matter with the City or not. Probably it is new in Conquest?

It was new with PTW. Didn't work in Vanilla.

 

[Andronicus]

Our next City I’d like to have at (-2, 4) NW of Violet dot. Near forest[\b], lake and Sea.
When Worker finish Road Gems (8 turns from now) Settler will arrive to Forest at 1 turn. Next, worker will cut forest to get curragh at 3-4 turns. Second Curragh will sail to Egyptians.

The advantage of your positioning of purple/violet dot is conservation of forest allowing chop to speed a build (eg curragh) The advantage of my positioning is it can share cow when Z not using it (with current 3spt surplus in Z, takes 4 turns to grow so can give cows to purple dot 2 of those 4 turns) thus allowing purple dot to grow in 4 with granary or 8 without. It has access to 2 2fpt tiles - oysters and lake plus plains can be irrigated. Its main use could be a 4 turn worker factory with a granary.

Later thoughts (edit)
Re worker activities
My preference would be to work only grasss and plains tiles whilst our worker numbers are so low, mountains and hills take up a lot of worker turns and I believe can wait for later. Having started gem mountain obviously we finish it and gain 2 benefits - a lux (although we do have 3 warriors avail for mp duty) and more importantly - a road through to NW region.
Preparing road network to red dot will speed settlement and getting irrigation to the sheep will speed growth. These 2 tasks are highest on my list of priorities.


With Indians beyond the NE desert peninsula it would appear likely that our starting continent is large (large enough for several other AI on same continent as Indians perhaps?).
Agree we should not need contacts to get a discount on writing as likely none exists, but I would be keen to have contacts once we research writing so we can judge the research rate to determine whether to go straight for phil or not.

Other point is do we require GLH? Not going to benefit getting to Egyptian continent and Indians are on our continent. Presumably there is a 3rd (and ? 4th) continent which may or may not benefit from GLH.

 

[Abegweit]

Second Curragh will sail to Egyptians.

Egyptians? Yellow is Cleo? How do you know that?

 

[Andronicus]

Opponents - 13: America, Arabia, China, Egypt, England, France, Germany, India, Japan, Korea, Ottomans, Russia, Scandinavia.

Correct me if I am wrong, but looking at above civs yellow would be Egypt

 

[Paul#42]

Second Curragh will sail to Egyptians.

Egyptians? Yellow is Cleo? How do you know that?

MapStat also tells you the unknown civs. It's not considered spoilerish.
You do not want to tell me you only rely on the F11-screen in your Gotms, do you?!?

EDIT: Got it. Will play tonight.

 

[Abegweit]

Sorry 'bout the Egyptians, guys. It simply wouldn't have occured to me to work this out.

Agree we should not need contacts to get a discount on writing as likely none exists, but I would be keen to have contacts once we research writing so we can judge the research rate to determine whether to go straight for phil or not.

Certainly. Contacts are needed. It's a fairly high priority actually. But the granary is even higher.

Other point is do we require GLH? Not going to benefit getting to Egyptian continent and Indians are on our continent. Presumably there is a 3rd (and ? 4th) continent which may or may not benefit from GLH.

Another reason to get explorer curraghs out. Sometime soon we should start a pre-build. It can always be changed to FP if it turns out not to be needed.

 

[I. Larkin]

Could we use Coordinate notation for Locations? Not to be confused with blue, purple, red, orange? It is so simple e.g. Zimbabwe ->(0, 0), Orange dot ->(4, -5)
The advantage of your positioning of purple/violet dot is conservation of forest allowing chop to speed a build (eg curragh) The advantage of my positioning is it can share cow when Z not using it (with current 3spt surplus in Z, takes 4 turns to grow so can give cows to purple dot 2 of those 4 turns) thus allowing purple dot to grow in 4 with granary or 8 without. It has access to 2 2fpt tiles - oysters and lake plus plains can be irrigated. Its main use could be a 4 turn worker factory with a granary..
I see your reasons. Also it will be less corrupted. So your point (-2, 3) is a good choice. And I think it is next City. Look, who knows, when Construction will come? But we may have near this lake 2 large low corrupted cities. Also, they are relatively “save”. But I think we may build curragh straight away. Information is important, and without approximate map it is difficult to build plans. With proper M-management Settler will be ready in 5 turns, not in 10 as picture shows. It’s a pity, that road will not be ready, but nevertheless…

Re worker activities
My preference would be to work only grasss and plains tiles whilst our worker numbers are so low, mountains and hills take up a lot of worker turns and I believe can wait for later. Having started gem mountain obviously we finish it and gain 2 benefits - a lux (although we do have 3 warriors avail for mp duty) and more importantly - a road through to NW region.
Preparing road network to red dot will speed settlement and getting irrigation to the sheep will speed growth. These 2 tasks are highest on my list of priorities.
You are right in general, but when I make a decision to road gems I count that Ulundi will grow at only 9 turns. Nothing more as road Gem or Goats I could not invent. Obviously, Gems much better. Difficult question where to send him next. Cut forest near Zimbabwe? Or irrigate (-2, 3) City?

With Indians beyond the NE desert peninsula it would appear likely that our starting continent is large (large enough for several other AI on same continent as Indians perhaps?).
Agree we should not need contacts to get a discount on writing as likely none exists, but I would be keen to have contacts once we research writing so we can judge the research rate to determine whether to go straight for phil or not..
Because India have all bunch of techs it is likely that they contacted with 4-5 Civs, Japan included, (the only civ that knows wheel from the start). Probably (from common sense) it is China, and Korea and they are locked in alliance. But who use common sense?? It might happened that they will research writing before us. Defenetly Ulundi will return to Granary, but (-2, 3) City will build Curragh first.

Other point is do we require GLH? Not going to benefit getting to Egyptian continent and Indians are on our continent. Presumably there is a 3rd (and ? 4th) continent which may or may not benefit from GLH..
I think we have to build military instead of lighthouse. Or decide next after Curragh’s scouting.
@Abeweit: The curragh needs to be changed to a granary. Furthermore, our curraghs should come out of towns to the east and west, not one in the heart of the bay.

You are right, commander…

At this point REX is more important than contacts. All the latter would give us is a discount on Writing - and I really don't want to discover that we have one. Furthermore, I don't think we will.
What is Rex? Republic? Do you mean, that our “monopoly” on writing will give to other civs discount on the research? So, you want to research CoL and Philo “in blind”?? You are brave man… Why scout waiting Egyptians then? Also may help following risky procedure: Borrow money from Indians and put back 100% research. (they may give 33 for 2 gpt, say. When money will over, borrow again, and again until Republic. That will slow down their research and in the case of aggression we gain something…

When Gems will be connected optimal size of Zimbawe will be 4-5, and Ulundi 4. After settler we may build barracks and after next Archer…

Finally I’d like to find out why blue (0, -6) and yellow (3, -9) are on the forest? Why not (0, -7) and (2, -10)?

 

[Paul#42]

Could we use Coordinate notation for Locations? Not to be confused with blue, purple, red, orange? It is so simple e.g. Zimbabwe ->(0, 0), Orange dot ->(4, -5)

Not all people are used to coordinates like you are (obviously). Having a dotmap makes discussion easier for us non-mathematicians and you don't have to calculate a transformation matrix to move a dot by a tile...

So your point (-2, 3) is a good choice. And I think it is next City.

I think the same. But I would love to explore that site first, maybe a bonus tile is available for one of these tiles. That might be a reason to move purple dot one tile NE.

But I think we may build curragh straight away. Difficult question where to send him next. Cut forest near Zimbabwe? Or irrigate (-2, 3) City?

The latter. 2-3 tiles should be workable for that town at least. More if it shall built TGL.

I think we have to build military instead of lighthouse. Or decide next after Curragh’s scouting.

We have some time left before we definetely know when to launch a prebuild. If we are unlucky and AI builds it first (by cascade eg), we can still use it for FP.

What is Rex? Republic?

Rapid EXpansion. Spit our settlers and grab land as fast as possible.

Also may help following risky procedure: Borrow money from Indians and put back 100% research. (they may give 33 for 2 gpt, say. When money will over, borrow again, and again until Republic. That will slow down their research and in the case of aggression we gain something…

It will speed up their research, because they have 2gpt more to use imo.

Finally I’d like to find out why blue (0, -6) and yellow (3, -9) are on the forest? Why not (0, -7) and (2, -10)?

A forrest to chop is a nice benefit, but a strategic superior site is more important. Blue dot is on sea and does not leave space between culture of U and blue dot. Yellow dot might move, to share the sheep and to speed up a curragh with a chop.

 

[Andronicus]

Could we use Coordinate notation for Locations? Not to be confused with blue, purple, red, orange? It is so simple e.g. Zimbabwe ->(0, 0), Orange dot ->(4, -5)

Finally I’d like to find out why blue (0, -6) and yellow (3, -9) are on the forest? Why not (0, -7) and (2, -10)?

One reason to avoid coordinates is they are easy to make errors. Either you have made an error describing yellow as (3,-9) or I have in working it out to be (2,-9). In any case as Abegweit pointed out his original position was 1 north (3,-8) which is better and not on forest.
Abegweit's original blue was 1S of my suggestion also avoiding the forest. However this site leaves 4 tiles not usable until cultural expansion (inside the blue square on my dot map) so I propose a tighter placement. Your suggestion of (0,-7) would serve just as well but is not on the coast
Another possibility is to place red dot 1 S of sheep thus speeding up irrigation and place a choke city 1 NE of red dot and move yellow dot to (1,-10) on lake and coastal.

 

[Abegweit]

Could we use Coordinate notation for Locations? Not to be confused with blue, purple, red, orange? It is so simple

I find coordinate notation utterly confusing on on this type of grid, Even if it was orthogonal, it's pictures that are simple. Numbers are prone to error and, as proof, I can't even figure yours out.

You are right in general, but when I make a decision to road gems I count that Ulundi will grow at only 9 turns. Nothing more as road Gem or Goats I could not invent. Obviously, Gems much better. Difficult question where to send him next.

Neither one should have been worked. As Andronicus said, working the grass and plains to the east would have been better. As it is, I agree that we should build PurpleDot next and irrigating the plains north of it is pretty clear.

What is Rex? Republic? Do you mean, that our “monopoly” on writing will give to other civs discount on the research? So, you want to research CoL and Philo “in blind”?? You are brave man… Why scout waiting Egyptians then?

REX is Rapid EXpansion. E.g. growth of our nation. I certainly don't want to research blind. I want those contacts. I just want growth even more.

Also may help following risky procedure: Borrow money from Indians and put back 100% research. (they may give 33 for 2 gpt, say. When money will over, borrow again, and again until Republic. That will slow down their research and in the case of aggression we gain something…

How does giving them gpt slow down their research? I certainly see how it would slow down ours.

When Gems will be connected optimal size of Zimbawe will be 4-5, and Ulundi 4. After settler we may build barracks and after next Archer…

The optimal size of Z is 3-4 without or without the Gems. Growing it more given a non-optimal number of shields and forces us to use worker turns which are better devoted to other cities. Squeezing in military between settler builds is certainly a good idea though. I haven't looked at it closely (too early) but I expect that size will be right for Ulindi and PurpleDot as well. Might be 2-3 though.

Finally I’d like to find out why blue (0, -6) and yellow (3, -9) are on the forest? Why not (0, -7) and (2, -10)?

I'm not sure what your alternates are but saving a forest is not a good reason for selecting a city site. You get a mere 10 shields for which you will pay over and over again the entire game. The reason for the placement, in any case, is strict CxxC. We don't have much good land.