SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Abegweit]

About Long term. Better make palace Jump to Thebes. FP in Isa, start now, chop later. Not to build anymore Cities North of Zimbabwe.
Babedy needs Tempel and Harbor. Zimbabwe Aqueduct.

I doubt we want the palace in either city. I would expect inland. Unhappiness can be dealt with by MPs. This is one of the few advantages of our chosen government. No temples please. And almost cities are going to want aqueducts and harbours. Z should probably be one of the last because it's busy spitting out food for the other cities. In fact, if we decide to jump the capital, it should never get any more improvements at all.

A thought occurs to me. What about giving the cow to B? Then it could be a worker factory at size five and Z could concentrate on military. As we've already noted, building workers in Z is a waste unless we do a LOT more work.

 

[I. Larkin]

Better to have Granary in the City that build Workers. One is OK, I think Ng, bat as Factory... Tempel in Babedy is just to expand. Babedy is the only City that may grow without Aqueduct. Z can't, so Settlers there is the only options (May be Combo, when Goats mined).

 

[Paul#42]

I am also strongly against losing more than a single turn between buying Curr (or MM) for some 20 gpt and cancelling the deal by attacking India. This would really burn money and spoil our chances! Rushing a galley to attack will at least last 5 turns that's ~130g. Probably more.

I see 117g at our rivals we could get for Curr. That's not to bad.

Ivan, make a precise invasion plan, estimate / calculate effort, cost and gain and we can comment it.
Don't do it on your own because "It's a game, after all."
Read my signature and you know how Al and me think about it.

If it is in five turns and we are willing to start our GA by conquering (and holding!) Delhi or we just want to throw in four archers to watch some fireworks and have some fun, we can do it. But we want to know what we are up to and what the results will be.

Right at the moment there are too many unknown factors to calculate the result. I as a peaceful player tend to take the small risk - as Abegweit suggested. Waste an Impi (backup one archer and one warrior?) and attack India the same turn you sealed the deal (before the ink is dry )

Than we could take some 20 turns to set up a nice invasion force, prepare roads and invasion beach heads and chose a nice aim. Maybe Egypt. The land looks slightly better then Gandhi's.
By then we hopefully know other civs on another continent, have some nice trading opportunities, know more about the world. I think I feel more comfortable that way.

 

[Abegweit]

All your points are spot-on. However Z is a far better producer than B. So, if we give the cow to Z, we necessarily waste shields. Either we keep the city small, when it should grow or we dump a lot of shields every time we build a worker.

A granary in B wouldbe useful even after size 7.

 

[I. Larkin]

My no. no. no. no. no. at the top of the page is precisely about you taking unilateral decisions. This needs to be decided by the team. Please give a precise sequence. Show how much it will cost and prove to me you have the money. I don't think you do. Massive gpt plus a rushed galley? I don't think so.

Is the plan to abandon Delhi? We have no offence.

Of course. Get everything you can when the time comes.

Here is a plan. Next turn everything may change. Ingia will trade MM and we will not have 87 g. We may gift Deli to Cleo and it will Trig India's war vs everybody. I will wait 1 day more until you (and others) will get how good this idea. Or explain me why 6 times "no".

 

[I. Larkin]

All your points are spot-on. However Z is a far better producer than B. So, if we give the cow to Z, we necessarily waste shields. Either we keep the city small, when it should grow or we dump a lot of shields every time we build a worker.

A granary in B wouldbe useful even after size 7.

Did not get a point. Do you want in Babedy worker first or Granary first?
How Z will operate? Nou it looks like 4 turn 3.5-5.5 SF.

 

[I. Larkin]

1) I am also strongly against losing more than a single turn between buying Curr (or MM) for some 20 gpt and cancelling the deal by attacking India. This would really burn money and spoil our chances! Rushing a galley to attack will at least last 5 turns that's ~130g. I see 117g at our rivals we could get for Curr. That's not to bad.

2) Ivan, make a precise invasion plan, estimate / calculate effort, cost and gain and we can comment it.
Don't do it on your own because "It's a game, after all."
Read my signature and you know how Al and me think about it.

3) If it is in five turns and we are willing to start our GA by conquering (and holding!) Delhi or we just want to throw in four archers to watch some fireworks and have some fun, we can do it. But we want to know what we are up to and what the results will be.

4) Right at the moment there are too many unknown factors to calculate the result. I as a peaceful player tend to take the small risk - as Abegweit suggested. Waste an Impi (backup one archer and one warrior?) and attack India the same turn you sealed the deal (before the ink is dry )

5) Than we could take some 20 turns to set up a nice invasion force, prepare roads and invasion beach heads and chose a nice aim. Maybe Egypt. The land looks slightly better then Gandhi's.
6) By then we hopefully know other civs on another continent, have some nice trading opportunities, know more about the world. I think I feel more comfortable that way.

1) There is no way: Impy will not breake through B camp + 2 Spears. Moreover, fight with Spears will not trig MPP. Do not be to gready, 260 is not a big deal for C+MM.
2) See the picture. I am not going to send big Invasion forces. In next 5 turns we have chanse to take Delhi with 2 Archers. Thats it. But my plan is to have MM. To see other continents.
3) I am not going to send Impy there. GA may wait. 2 Archers to make some "firework" is resonable price.
4) It is a contrudiction: Without MM we can't attack, but to have MM we have to go for gpt deal. 5 turns is not 20, count! I agree, that it is many unknown factrors, that I probably do not see. But if anybody see, let me know.
5) So, what the alternative plan? To sit 20 turns with 0% research without MM? But what if others declare to us "just in case"? Or trade MM for gpt and sail for war and trade Curr later?
MM costs 17 gpt, and we will not afford C havind 17 gpt defecite. Note, we need a construction soon...
Or trade and not to sail for war because we are "not ready?"
6) To know others we need MM.

 

[Paul#42]

Here is a plan. Next turn everything may change. Ingia will trade MM and we will not have 87 g. We may gift Deli to Cleo and it will Trig India's war vs everybody. I will wait 1 day more until you (and others) will get how good this idea. Or explain me why 6 times "no".

We could get Curr (+3g) from Korea for 22gpt. This should get MM +7g from Russia, 87g from India, 23g from Cleo. That's 120g gain.

costs:
112g for the galley rush.
Your calculation of the journey seems correct.
5 x 22g = 110g.
balance: 120g-112g-110g = -102g.

But I do not think, 2 archers is sufficient to take Delhi - but it might be worth a try...

+ We can immediately start on another tech (vs. in ~7-10 turns)
- We lose two archers (instead of an Impi)
+ we do not risk starting our GA (if Impi defeats spear)
+ can calculate the timing exactly (vs. we lose Impi against barbs)

Ivan pro,
Abegweit against,
Paul convinced, in favor of Ivan's plan.
Andro?
Mark?

 

[Abegweit]

The objective is to provoke war for the cheapest price possible. Taking Delphi in the process is a GOOD THING because it cripples India, not becauase it gains us anything. We can't possibly hold the city. If we take it, it should be razed or gifted.

Ivan's plan wiil 100% cause war. Fine. How much does it cost? I haven't seen numbers.

 

[Andronicus]

It is a difficult decision
I am very doubtful that 2 archers would be sufficient but the cost of waiting for further reinforcements would be too high
MM is the tech I really want so we can find the other AIs, this alone is worth a lot of commerce.
I am in favour of getting MM immed and Ivan's way appears the best unless someone can see an alternative.
Just to add to Paul's analysis of pros and cons must also consider Korea gains 5 turns 22gpt (loses 3g), India gains currency for cheap 87g (but likely to get soon as allied with Korea), Russia gains currency spreading it to the other alliance speeding onset of next age, plus giving away currency to Cleo for 23g?
If we do go this direction our return on investment may be increased by rushing galleys in the 2 westermost towns (perhaps as soon as our gpt deals are cancelled).

We may even gain more by sending an impi on a pillaging mission (which will also trigger off mpp, but at risk of sparking premature GA).

(Re GA - when do we want it?)

I think worker near Ngome should immediately commence roading mountain so we can start building horses - if we had 5 horses in reach of Delhi I would fancy our chances, unfortunately we dont

 

[Abegweit]

II am very doubtful that 2 archers would be sufficient but the cost of waiting for further reinforcements would be too high

One archer would be enough. The objective is to cause war, not to take Delhi. The advantage of Ivan's plan is that, given we have the resources, it is certain. It will cause war. The advantage of simply running an impi up the peninsula is that it is cheap and fast. However, it is not certain because it could die on the way. I estimate that this would work 75% of the time.

If someone could prove to me that we have the resources for the galley approach, I would go for it. What does it cost to rush the galley and how many turns do we have to survive at negative gpt?

 

[Paul#42]

One archer would be enough. The objective is to cause war, not to take Delhi.

You are right, maybe a warrior pillaging iron or horses is even meaner
But we could send two archers, let one attack Delhi and if it has no success, the other steps on the boat again and is gone.

If someone could prove to me that we have the resources for the galley approach, I would go for it. What does it cost to rush the galley and how many turns do we have to survive at negative gpt?

costs:
112g for the galley rush.
Your calculation of the journey seems correct.
5 x 22g = 110g.
balance: 120g-112g-110g = -102g.

What else do you need? Ivan issued a map with a journey plan. I checked it, it's correct. I calculated the costs. We get Currency and Map Making for 102g. We can go on with researching (what?).

Andro is right stating this trade would involve giving currency away too cheap. But at least to Russia we would have to give it anyway to get MM. Or would you rather get MM from Russia for gpt? I never even thought of it...

EDIT: I'm really surprised to see, team Klarius did not even revolt till 1000 BC - or they are having the FP or a lib for the same culture that was stalled by anarchy...

 

[Abegweit]

OK. I got a thick skull, I guess. I'm on board. The impi would be cheaper. But less certain.

 

[markh]

Ivan pro,
Abegweit against,
Paul convinced, in favor of Ivan's plan.
Andro?
Mark?

I could not check the latest save, so I have no real picture of the situation. Just from reading the posts I am not able to construct a picture for myself. I am not that creative.

 

[Paul#42]

OK. I got a thick skull, I guess. I'm on board. The impi would be cheaper. But less certain.

...and slower.
And the tech trade would be different - maybe better, maybe worse. If Currency suddenly spreads we only get one tech (if we can't raise our taxes to some 30gpt).

Does that mean you are convinced? Or just overruled?
Or just hangoverish after a tough day?

Andro?

 

[Abegweit]

Is the idea to buy MM? Why not buy curr, for which we have a partial discount, and trade? In any case, MM is the only tech we will need for a long time.

I'm not fully convinced, actually. It is slower and more expensive. And it's not certain either. There is the issue of barb galleys. Perhaps best is to do both? an impi and two archers would actually have a shot at holding Delhi.

 

[Paul#42]

Is the idea to buy MM? Why not buy curr, for which we have a partial discount, and trade? In any case, MM is the only tech we will need for a long time.

I mentioned MM, just in case Curr is spread (if we don't buy immediately) we would have to get MM directly then. Or we would need some 30gpt to buy both. The other techs we need are Construction and CoL. To get out of MA of course. Crossing rivers and ducts are not too important right now.

I'm not fully convinced, actually. It is slower and more expensive. And it's not certain either. There is the issue of barb galleys. Perhaps best is to do both? an impi and two archers would actually have a shot at holding Delhi.

It's not slower, it's faster. We will definetely need six turns to attack. Our Impi would also need 5 turns - but only if he clears the barb camp at once and the Indian guards are still there. They might be gone to other fronts.

Of course we should exercise both options, sending the Impi directly. Clearing the barb camp could be nice, to. All those barbs might do to the Indian guards are some nice promotions...

If we follow Ivan's plan, what would we research next and how intense?
CoL, Cons and Lit and 0% are to debate.
Does anyone plan to build a single lib?
Do we want to enter the new Age with a tech lead?

 

[I. Larkin]

Ok, lets' try to work out optimal plan. We may "wait and see" 1-2 turns.
If Delhi become size 1 at 1000 BC my suggestions are correct and it is only 1 spear there. We will have 4 turns for sure that no new unit will be there. 2 A vs 1 Spear is a huge chanse to win. We may send second Galleys and try to hold Delhi. But I think better to Gift it and teleport Archers home.
Our Max is 42 GPT (2 Gems + all Taxmen). We cam trade MM first and try to get Curr for gpt at the turn of declare, it may be cheaper 5 turns later, but may be not and we will stuck. Do you think we want to sell C to Cleo for 23g? I think we need Construction first.

 

[Paul#42]

Ok, lets' try to work out optimal plan. We may "wait and see" 1-2 turns.
If Delhi become size 1 at 1000 BC my suggestions are correct and it is only 1 spear there. We will have 4 turns for sure that no new unit will be there. 2 A vs 1 Spear is a huge chanse to win. We may send second Galleys and try to hold Delhi. But I think better to Gift it and teleport Archers home.

That's an idea. Impi could be running, galley becomes cheaper and we collect some money.
...and spare two turns of paying 22gpt to Korea.
I think teleportion of units is an exploit and prohibited, right?

Our Max is 42 GPT (2 Gems + all Taxmen). We cam trade MM first and try to get Curr for gpt at the turn of declare, it may be cheaper 5 turns later, but may be not and we will stuck. Do you think we want to sell C to Cleo for 23g? I think we need Construction first.

Yes, I chose this to calculate the maximum instant financial benefit of the whole plan. We should not squander our techs. No need to gift Cleo to MA...

Research after the trade - what?

 

[I. Larkin]

Research after the trade - what?
Construction