SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Abegweit]

And that is easily obtainable in the final turnset (remember the final save does not appear)

Klarius gained 750 tiles in the turnset posted. It appears that you are right.

Further consderation brings me to the opinion we should not short rush horses at all, rather make all military builds horses to maximise the money spent on upgrading to knights (this is agreeing with Abegweit's comment in post 765 above

Well, I too have changed my mind. The conquest comes first and that will probably be the limiting factor. We'll have enough money when the time comes. One things we missed is that we can disband military. It is actually is more cost-efficient to upgrade a horse to knight and disband that than it is to short-rush a settler.

Horse upgrade and disband -> 17 shields for 60 gold
Settler short-rush -> 19 shields for 76 gold

And best of all, in the interim we have the military for use. So mark, get as much power over there as possible. We can re-evaluate this after this turnset is done.

Edit:

Two very important points:

1) No more settlers on the home continent. It can be filled in later. Thebes should be sending everything to Germany.

2) Concentrate on the Americans and Vikings ATM (although the city west of Hastings needs to die). Both waves out of Hastings need to arrive at their destinations at the same time and England/Germany is the shorter path.

 

[Abegweit]

See Andro's post on Hastings. Make peace with French or Germans and it will be fine.

Edit:

I dont like the look of thngs near Hastings - that stack of 5 zerks threatens our redlined 5th knights army. I would suggest peace with France getting 37g whlst giving 2gpt (it wont last 20 turns), would take the heat off here having only to deal with England and America. Again allowing our units to heal up then push through England and America (perhaps even ally Vikes v America?) before turning on French and Germans again. To do this it woud be important not to leave open cities tempting Joan to break the treaty.

Yes I really like the idea of an alliance with the Vikes against America.

If we are going to stay in the running for this thing, we have to hold Hastings and wehave to move into the US. Giving Hastings up would be quitting the game. I, for one, want to take a shot at the Big Prize. And an alliance against the Americans is exactly the way to move forward. What about French and/or Germans against the English at the same time?

 

[Andronicus]

Re horse builds
Currently the following are building knights
Bapedi (50 shields in box) - 2 turns
Ulundi (60) - 1 turn
Umfolozi (35) - 5 turns
Hlobane (21) - 7 turns - I think this should switch to horse

spt
Zimbabwe 16 -> 2 turn horses
Ibab 12 - 3 turn horses (but can switch igass to iron mountain for 15spt and 2 turn horses for 4 tuns before the granary is empty and have to go back to 12spt 3 turn horses - I suggest we do it)
Ulundi 12 - 3 turn horses
Ngome, Mpondo & Bapedi 10 - 3 turn horses
Isand 8 - 4 turn horses
Umfol 7 - 4 turn horses with shortrushed worker after 1 turn (can save the 12g here by switching desert to hill once mined in 2 turns - 9spt, by using lake (7spt) 3 out of 4 turns we can squeeze out a few extra coins as well)
Hlobane & Tugela 7 - 4 turn horses with shortrushed worker for 12g after 1st turn)
Swazi 6 - 5 turn horses
Umtata - 3 (after grows in 2 turns) 10 turn horses

This gives 3.5 horses per turn costing 210gpt to upgrade
We can make more than that plus have 949 in bank, so can afford to rush rax in Hastings, some settlers and galleys.

On subject of galleys - whats the plan for the settler & AC on the galley SW of Heliopolis? Also note a number of AI have galleys off our NE and N coast where we have little defence - have these already dropped units?

A closer look at the situation on our home continent reveals we badly need peace there this turn. We have only 4 healthy knights in the Hangchow region and all our armies are weakened. I recommend immed peace grabbing all Japan's gold for gpt. ROPs should allow us to get the 4th units to our armies once Pentagon built (? where - I suggest not where it is as there is 2.6% flip risk in P'yong.) After armies healed and filled with 4 units, a ROP rape of China should see them fall then press quickly onto India which only has 5 cities

Settlers on home continent - need to allow for 1 expansion before end game at this stage. Settling where current settler is east of Mecca would leave a 4tile hole after expansion which could be prevented settling 1NW. There is a spot on tundra east of Yaraslavl which could claim 6 tiles (perhaps settler from Rostov), other settlers need to go to other continent or the JICK front (a few can settle by desert goat and northern desert peninsula in about 20 turns). edit - agree with Abegweit - provided settler can arrive at a useful site on other continent in less than 30 turns it should go there - if going to take more than 30 turns from now it should fill out our home continent

 

[Paul#42]

We should also consider massively sacrificing slaves. There's no need to improve tiles in the old world any more. We only need some roads near the fronts.

Especially in 7spt-towns it is helpful to disband a slave to get from 28 to 30shields. However I fumbled to get a slave in time to Tugela, moving on the mountain was

 

[markh]

Ok, I think I know what to do. I will start my set this evening and see what I can do.

Peace with JICK. ROP with China. Heal and position troops for ROP rape.

Hold Hastings. Peace with Germany or France and if possible ally Vikes against America

 

[Paul#42]

Hold Hastings. Peace with Germany or France and if possible ally Vikes against America

IIRC we can get the final German town for peace.

 

[Andronicus]

IIRC we can get the final German town for peace.

I'm pretty sure we cant

Peace with JICK. ROP with China. Heal and position troops for ROP rape.

Hold Hastings. Peace with Germany or France and if possible ally Vikes against America

Dont forget to get money from Japan - should also be able to get some from France (I think they have the most on that continent), in exchange for gpt - peace treaty is our only chance of gpt for cash.

 

[markh]

Played the first 5 turns.

1) 650AD : make peace with Japan getting 256 gold for 19gpt
ROP with China for wines and 2gpt
make peace with France getting 43 gold + 2gpt
establish an embassy with Vikings
he wants 680 gold or 34gpt for an alliance against America
I throw in ROP and get it for 30gpt
establish an embassy in France and sign ROP to get our units out of her territory faster, it did not cost us anything
For a war against the English she wants 600 gold
BTW she has 8 musketeers in Paris

found Ibabanago
found New Isipezi
found New Amatikulu

send units to heal

IBT : Gandhi offers us Theology for 860 gold, no thanks
Ragnar attacks the American stack at Hastings and pulls in England against the Vikings
Germany declares on America
France declares on America
Germany declares on England
France declares on England

2) 660AD : near Munich we defeat two English longbows (2-0)
rush Pentagon in Damascus
rush rax in Hastings

IBT : Pentagon is completed in Damascus
China settles a town at the wines near Namp'o, saves us a settler

3) 670AD : prepare attack on London
get units in position to take on China

IBT : England wants peace, oh no my dear

4) 680AD : found New Zunguin
knight army kills spear in London (3-0)
knight army kills spear in London (4-0)
knight retreats on spear in Londond
knight dies on attack on London (4-1)
knight kills spear in London, promotes elite (5-1)
eknight kills spear in London and gets us a leader (6-1)
eknight retreats on spear in London
knight army kills spear in London (7-1)

knight kills American spear at Hastings (8-1)

IBT : nothing

5) 690AD : knight army kills 2 spears in London (10-1)
knight retreats on spear in London
knight dies on attack on London (10-2)
knight army kills that pesky spear and we take London + The Pyramids

form another knight army in London

Save is attached for further discussion. I have not moved several units especially in China. I would declare on China now. Next turn I would dow on Germany, to end the gpt payments to the Vikings. They lost quite a few Berserks and hurt America badly.

 

[Andronicus]

A few comments
Our SF in Thebes is out of whack, it has not been kept at 2 turn growth
In China
- is it worth delaying a turn and sending a MDI army to pillage Chinese salt. I count 11 tiles for 1st MDI to move - if nothing blocks it it can pillage salt next turn as we commence war.
- I presume you intend adding vMDI to the 2nd MDI it is standing next to
- we have nothing to respond with should the Indian galley drop a unit in ex-Otto land (? when is next AC due)
-some knights in NAra could be moved under rop to reach Tsingtao before dow in case more than 3 units there.
- ? pillage tile 2E of Nara, leave town empty with knights on mountain to encourage WEs +/- sams to end turn on grass 1E of Nara
On other continent
- I would prefer keeping French- Vikings on our side whilst disposing of English and Americans. Vikings still have a lot of zerks (can see 9 on the save) which could make things difficult at Hastings
I would send the London forces through England , then north whislt the rest attack Chicago -> Washington. By this time the 10 horses currently on boat or about to load would be at Hastings and upgraded ready to take on Vikes - remember France is also quite strong and would be hitting our flank with knights. So long as we are progressing through cities as fast as we have forces for, I see no need to increase the number of enemies and risk getting bogged down.
Another suggestion - I would feel uncomfortable if French used our rop to get units to American front - hopefully they will be content with English. We could use a few slaves to block access to our road system (eg 2SW of New Avignon). Just noticed slaves roading mountainby Cologne? Why not the grassland if we are looking at improving routes (eg 1S) or better still irrigating grass to increase pop for last min settler rushes ( I would switch Nottingham to settler). Rushing settlers on this continent will be necessary in last 10 turns as settlers on starting continent will never arrive in time.

Americans have strongest culture.
Query - who goes first Vikings or Americans - if Vikes then can take American cities, leave vacant - any stray Americans will be gathered up by zerks and if Americans retake, we can can then capture again following turn

If we want to save gpt we can save more with meticulous MM than we can by stopping our gpt payments. Just scrolling through the cities and putting all citizens working 0 or 1fpt tiles in totally corrupt towns will give us 22 taxmen - 44gpt.

Further point made by Paul that we can use slaves to gain extra shields is valuable in 7spt towns (Tugela, Hlobane after it completes knight) and 9spt town (Umfolozi if uses mhill instead of idesert again after completes knight)

Minor issue with Amatikulu and Intombe I mentioned before - if Intombe works 2 plains (current one plus steals one from Amat) it can build at 2spt, Amiti can work mhill and idesert after it starves back to size 2 for 3spt.

I note AC still sitting in galley off SW coast of Egypt - would it not be more useful on land protecting us from AI landings? edit - ignore this - I must have hallucinated

 

[Paul#42]

The Indian galley in former turkey has been there for several turnsets - it should be empty or carry a settler combo that won't take a town. I bet it hopes that Korea leaves an empty spot to settle on our desert peninsula
This salt resource over there is too hot to ignore

blocking our roads with slaves is a good idea - it both slows down french units and ensures our quick movement.

Cats, trebs and spare slaves should be sacrificed to speed up settler builds on that continent. (carefully in flip threatened towns like London - but instantly if we can get 30 shields in the frist turn after capture!

There's no point in mining grassland near Leipzig or anywhere else in corrupt areas. Stop all works in progress.
Rather speed up settlers by choping or disbanding. Cleaning jungles or swamps also is useless - and I'd say even irrigating is useless by now. Better join a slave if we need growth.
That roading the mountain I had started I did not feel how close we were to the end...
Mining the Iron near Heli is also nonsense. Apologies...

The gap between New Isipezi and Najran will be filled in 20 turns (2nd expansion in Damascus. If we need those 4 tiles earlier, we need to settle there. I don't think so, do you?

We need to get a target date as soon as we can get a precise timetable. We need 5 turns of expansion in our towns on our continent and some turns to get settlers to their sites.

I estimate it shoudl be like 30 turns - but A & A you two already figured out that would be too late, right? So when should be the finish date we are aiming for?

Several towns in corrupt areas need to be mmed for growth. Wonsan, Pyongyang, Najran (next turn), Novgorod,... Munich...

I'd keep peace with GFV till EA is done.

 

[Paul#42]

I note AC still sitting in galley off SW coast of Egypt - would it not be more useful on land protecting us from AI landings?

Where do you see that?!?
I see two settlers on that galley - and an AC on the hill near Giza - heading for China I propose... that's okay, galley is busy shipping settlers...

There will be a point where it makes no sense anymore to keep building settlers or slow units (and a bit later even horses) in distant towns like New Zimbabwe. I tend to miss that spot badly in my Gotms because at that stage I don't want to plan anymore but play like in trance. I guess we should determine that spot this game and switch to taxmen (even starving) and wealth in time, right? New Zimbabwe migth already be at that spot with a settler ready in 28 , right? Switch it to wealth?

reg warrior might move to India, upgrade to MDI and join an army? 9 turns to Hangchow -Ambitious plan for that little man - disband him

 

[Andronicus]

Checking diplo situation and found we can do this

I suggest take his gpt while we postion for Chinese attack.
Too bad we cant get his cash - I presume he sold his GLib gained techs for lots of gpt

 

[Andronicus]

Where do you see that?!?
I see two settlers on that galley - and an AC on the hill near Giza - heading for China I propose... that's okay, galley is busy shipping settlers...

You are correct of course - I'll just have to blame my old eyes - apologies

There will be a point where it makes no sense anymore to keep building settlers or slow units (and a bit later even horses) in distant towns like New Zimbabwe.
I guess we should determine that spot this game and switch to taxmen (even starving) and wealth in time, right?

Perhaps I am over optimistic, but I would like to believe we could finish this off in 20 turns.
The important thing is for our troops to always have a target to aim at so they continue to advance our domination tile count.

On our continent
An ROP rape of a salt deprived China should fall in 4 or 5 turns without requiring reinforcements.
10-15 turns to remove India and Japan does not seem over ambitious considering the later produced horses can be upgraded and sent to Japan to meet action earlier than they could arrive in Scandinavia.

The other continent I suggest
Phase 1
roughly dividing our forces into 2 with 1/3 (A team) capturing the new English capital (once healed suffic), then Philadelphia (B team will already have captured Chicago), coming south through Coventry, Warwick, Canterbury leaving it ready to strike Heidelburg and northern France. 2/3 of our forces (B team) take out America; Chicago, Washington, 1/2 to San Fran - NY, 1/2 to Atlanta (if vikes havnt already captured). Once healed and in position ready thenmselves for phase 2.
I est this phase to take 8-10 turns
Phase 2
B Team once healed positioned for rop rape and strike vikes from west
A Team once healed positioned and takes Heidelburg then defend French attacks from nothern France
C Team (formed from those 10 horses on way which should be upgraded in Hastings withon 10 turns) strike vikings from the SW
I would anticipate this quickly taking all viking mainland whilst maintaining a holding opertion against France
I est this phase to take 6-8 turns
Phase 3
Throw everything at French to gain a few more towns (? pillaging their salt first)
Mass rush settlers to fill all land and coast tiles other than French held ones
- a few more turns perhaps till dom reached

All up I think depending on rng and flips we should complete by 20 turns from now. What do the rest of you think? (looking at the slope of Klarius's territory graph, if they continued at same rate they finished 18-20 turns from where we are now).

Actually Mark your turns are 1 out since Paul did not complete his turn 10 moves - 650AD should be turn 0 - the pre-turn, and the most recent one 690AD would therefore be turn 4 so we are a turn ahead of where I was thinking (ie Klarius probably finished 19-21 turns from now)

 

[Paul#42]

One thing about domination: Do coastal tiles count?

We could use a dot map for calcualtion of towns to be founded, towns to be kept or razed, optimal army and supply paths - does anybody want to do that? Or are you already in progress, Mark? (it only makes sense prio to the next turns)

That map could take into account the culturasl expansion on our continent (where do we still need a settler?) and that there is no on the other (a library here and there?)

Another thing: Don't feel pressed to do those 10 turns every turnset, this migth be a good point to switch to 5 turn sets

 

[Paul#42]

I suggest take his gpt while we postion for Chinese attack.
Too bad we cant get his cash - I presume he sold his GLib gained techs for lots of gpt

Never thought of that

We need him to land his settler somewhere and found a town. Than keep him alive till the last of JIC is gone. Would they have to dow him if they can't pay their gpt anymore

 

[markh]

No, I am not in progress. I am at work and would continue in the evening.

While falling asleep yesterday I already thought that it would not be a very good idea to get into war with France again at the moment. It will be better to continue beating up England and America.

If somebody else wants to take the game now I would not mind. I know I am not the fastest in operations. I win my wars, but never play speedy. If you three think it is better that someone of you plays on it would be totally ok for me, otherwise I will continue this evening.

 

[Andronicus]

One thing about domination: Do coastal tiles count?

The Domination limit is defined as 75% of land and coastal tiles for this game (usually 66%)

We could use a dot map for calcualtion of towns to be founded, towns to be kept or razed, optimal army and supply paths - does anybody want to do that? Or are you already in progress, Mark? (it only makes sense prio to the next turns)

Well I would suggest keeping towns but not keep troops inside flip risk ones - American and French, and not keep armies inside any other than 1st turn (and then better to move out so can start healing 1 turn sooner).
On our home continent there will be very few gaps except perhaps at the end where we capture towns and not enough time before cultural expansion - not sure that logistically we could get settlers to these gaps (in China and Japan) in time, but 4 or 5 settlers to move in would be useful. There are a few places where 3 or 4 extra coastal tiles could be claimed - rushing a settler in adjacent town a few turns before the end will take care of these, similarly the 4 tile gap which will remain near Mecca after nearby towns expand.
On other continent no town should be building wealth unless it is unable to get to size 3 by 12-15 turns from now. They should all be building settlers to rush at the last min (as Abegweit stated disbanding military will be cost effective way of getting lots of settlers on last few turns). These settlers need to be rushed near to where they will be settled otherwise our final save will have dozens of useless settlers.

That map could take into account the culturasl expansion on our continent (where do we still need a settler?) and that there is no on the other (a library here and there?)

I think rushing a settler will always be better than rushing a lib (taking 4 turns to expand)

Another thing: Don't feel pressed to do those 10 turns every turnset, this migth be a good point to switch to 5 turn sets

This game is so much fun at the moment, its hard to sit back and let someone else play it

 

[Paul#42]

We could use a dot map for calcualtion of towns to be founded, towns to be kept or razed, optimal army and supply paths - does anybody want to do that?
That map could take into account the culturasl expansion on our continent (where do we still need a settler?) and that there is no on the other (a library here and there?)

I'd love to do that (if I could not play) but my boss wants me to work...
Maybe this is another point in the game we could waste some days in planning - this might result in some turns we finsih earlier - these seem crucial as I finally see us having a shot at the laurels...

 

[Andronicus]

Would they have to dow him if they can't pay their gpt anymore

No, Korea would still keep getting the gold and the AI would remain with no gpt.
I dont know whether the AI is penalised with loss of building or unit if it goes into negative balance like human player does, I suspect not (cheating AI)

 

[Andronicus]

No, I am not in progress. I am at work and would continue in the evening.


If somebody else wants to take the game now I would not mind. I know I am not the fastest in operations. I win my wars, but never play speedy. If you three think it is better that someone of you plays on it would be totally ok for me, otherwise I will continue this evening.

Mark, all of us would jump out of our seats to take over right now, but it is your turn and it would feel very wrong to pressure you into less than your fair share. So take your time, plan well and keep us updated while we drool over the saves.