SGOTM 11 - Unusual Suspects

[ETa]

1. We should settle on the plains hill, that extra hammer is too valuable to lose.

What do you mean that we get extra hammer in hills? Doesn't the city square always give 2 food 1 hammer 1 coin?

@Swede
I don't think there is much to do for the first 10-30 turns. Tech path sounds ok, keep scouting a second city spot and optimize the first city.

Good plan. Even from a swede.

 

[Indiansmoke]

All your cities have access to fur, dye, silk and ivory.

Does this mean we need to own them or can we just get them in trade?

 

[Deckhand]

What do you mean that we get extra hammer in hills? Doesn't the city square always give 2 food 1 hammer 1 coin?

No, that is the minimum. IF any of those base are higher, THEN you get that higher item instead.
Settling on hill gets 2f, 2h, 1c.

Spoiler :

edit,
exception - flood plain is not base terrain it is an added feature , settling on it changes it to desert, so no extra food
improvements can't be made - you only get the base

Indiansmoke, if you assume hill has a resource (which is my assumption), then do you still recommend settling on it? Are the few first turns of extra hammer better than long term? I don't think so in this game and don't want to take the chance.

Does this mean we need to own them or can we just get them in trade?

We can have them from trade. We should save at least one of our DoW's for the fur. Should save them both until we know where the fur is. Plan to get two local AIs down to one city vassals is nice - but let them DoW us for now.

kcd, I'm good w/ your plan for now. Either settle in place or just move warrior and post screenie.

 

[narri]

Ok, my attempts to reproduce the screenshot are as good as they're going to get:

Not half bad, eh?

Now what are the squares in the fog then?


The green outline I'm pretty sure about. The pink circled squares I'm not so sure about (since I couldn't get that upper right corner precisely right in texture). Yes, this means I'm asserting that 2SE of the settler is a Tundra hill (contradicting the contour map!). (The red was a corn that shouldn't have been there.)

Long story short, move the warrior NW is fine, and I say unless something interesting is there settle in place. I'm going to feel like a fool later when that tundra hill has deer on it .

 

[kcd_swede]

Does this mean we need to own them or can we just get them in trade?

Getting them in trade is OK.

One additional consideration about possible settling on copper... any city connected t othe capitol (if that is copper there on the plains hill) will be unable to build a warrior.

1 extra hammer still gets us our first worker about 20% faster, which means we get everything started 2-3 turns ahead. If there's no resource, I'd like to settle the PH as well, and I think Deckhand favored that too.

How likely do we see the odds that there is a iron or copper resource on that hill? Conspicuous bare hill, but doctored map. Who knows? I suspect there isn't since having one there would make an early move have a big impact.

@ETa: Your city will get the greater of the base city worth or the base tile worth (counted after forests/floodplains removed) without improvement. So a plains hill (that normally gets 2h) will make a city that gets 2F,2h,1c. But if there is copper, we just get the resource and no super hammer-tile to work.

 

[kcd_swede]

Since Deckhand and ETa seemed ok with the warrior NW plan, I moved that and post a screenshot now. Lets consider our settling location carefully now. We got loads of time if we need it. The game is paused until we get a good discussion on pros/cons of our settling options. (Or until you all decide we're ready).

View attachment 250712

 

[kcd_swede]

Ok, my attempts to reproduce the screenshot are as good as they're going to get:

The green outline I'm pretty sure about. The pink circled squares I'm not so sure about (since I couldn't get that upper right corner precisely right in texture). Yes, this means I'm asserting that 2SE of the settler is a Tundra hill (contradicting the contour map!). (The red was a corn that shouldn't have been there.)

Long story short, move the warrior NW is fine, and I say unless something interesting is there settle in place. I'm going to feel like a fool later when that tundra hill has deer on it .

Is this from fog-gazing alone, or have you done some contour mapping too? Or are you using some other method? Teach us, we all want to learn (and we want to be able to trust the map you made)

 

[kcd_swede]

What I am most worried about btw is how do we keep ais from killing each other especially early.

The tools at hand are not very useful early. Alphabet and currency are key techs to enable us to manipulate diplomatic actions with bribes to stop war, to change civics, to gift techs that help defense, whatever.

Before that, we're at the mercy of the gamemakers and the rng, for the most part.

@Indiansmoke: I agree that early advantage by conquest close neighbors is good. But we need to leave them alive... so it probably shoudl wait until Feudalism so we can vassal them. Also, we don't want to make any DOW until we have a fair idea of whether one (or two, or zero) civs will have to be DOW'd later. Too risky to do it blindly. Perhaps we can entice THEM to DOW on us, by demanding lots of stuff and maxing close border tensions?

 

[narri]

Is this from fog-gazing alone, or have you done some contour mapping too? Or are you using some other method? Teach us, we all want to learn (and we want to be able to trust the map you made)

Pure fog-gazing and gridline-staring. More explicitly:
1) Look at differences between my view and the holy screenshot.
2) Hypothesize on the differences (like"oh there shouldn't be a tree here", or "hmm, looks like a different color floor than that", or (my favorite) "the gridlines imply a different elevation for this tile"
3) Make changes in WorldBuilder.
4) If tired or out of time or exact match stop.
5) Goto 1.

I don't know enough details about the graphics engine to understand the reliability of what I'm assuming (especially the gridline thing). And fog-gazing totally fails in terms of resources, blech. I still wonder what's going on with the upper right in terms of the color of the texture. I could not find a combination that gets me the grey color there in that tiny corner of a cell rather than the plain-colored ground I have.

Attached is my version of the test save with this tile configuration.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Getting them in trade is OK.

One additional consideration about possible settling on copper... any city connected t othe capitol (if that is copper there on the plains hill) will be unable to build a warrior.

1 extra hammer still gets us our first worker about 20% faster, which means we get everything started 2-3 turns ahead. If there's no resource, I'd like to settle the PH as well, and I think Deckhand favored that too.

How likely do we see the odds that there is a iron or copper resource on that hill? Conspicuous bare hill, but doctored map. Who knows? I suspect there isn't since having one there would make an early move have a big impact.

@ETa: Your city will get the greater of the base city worth or the base tile worth (counted after forests/floodplains removed) without improvement. So a plains hill (that normally gets 2h) will make a city that gets 2F,2h,1c. But if there is copper, we just get the resource and no super hammer-tile to work.

Even if copper is on the hill we can still make warriors by not teching hunting!

Missing the acceleration that the extra hammer provides will be a big mistake IMO.

 

[Indiansmoke]

@Indiansmoke: I agree that early advantage by conquest close neighbors is good. But we need to leave them alive... so it probably shoudl wait until Feudalism so we can vassal them. Also, we don't want to make any DOW until we have a fair idea of whether one (or two, or zero) civs will have to be DOW'd later. Too risky to do it blindly. Perhaps we can entice THEM to DOW on us, by demanding lots of stuff and maxing close border tensions?

The start we have is ideal for fast rexing. Slavery can be used very effectivelly to 2 pop slave settlers and workers and even 3 pop slave stuff....so grabbing lots of land should not be difficult.

Pottery is key to that so that city can grow working farms and cottages, to cover expansion and allow 2-3 pop slaves.


If we get some luxuries around we should be able to expand at double the rate to every ai, grab the land, cottage everythiong while building up army to take close neighbours...grow huge and tech fast to UN. It should be as simple as that...if the land surrounding capital is as good.

 

[narri]

I think before we pick a settling spot, we should run a test to see how fast we can pump some first units out (warrior + settler + 2 or more workers). There are so many forests around here, and we have fast workers. This looks like a dream REX starting location. Makes me wonder what surprises are in store for us...

 

[ETa]

How likely do we see the odds that there is a iron or copper resource on that hill? Conspicuous bare hill, but doctored map. Who knows? I suspect there isn't since having one there would make an early move have a big impact.

This is interesting. We could take a risk and ignore the copper problem if we build a city that isn't connected to the capital and pump the warriors from there. Right?

Even if copper is on the hill we can still make warriors by not teching hunting!.

I forgot this.

 

[ETa]

Long story short, move the warrior NW is fine, and I say unless something interesting is there settle in place. I'm going to feel like a fool later when that tundra hill has deer on it .

Or there is more tundra nearby. Though that won't be a problem until later on.

 

[Deckhand]

1 extra hammer still gets us our first worker about 20% faster, which means we get everything started 2-3 turns ahead. If there's no resource, I'd like to settle the PH as well, and I think Deckhand favored that too.

How likely do we see the odds that there is a iron or copper resource on that hill? Conspicuous bare hill, but doctored map. Who knows? I suspect there isn't since having one there would make an early move have a big impact.

So, it comes down to guessing what the map maker did? Unaltered, it sure looks like a resource, only two other places to put them.

epic speed, so do workers cost 90? (I'm at work now)
90/6 vs 90/7 = 15 vs 13 turns. And we lost a turn moving. Fast Worker one turn sooner doesn't seem worth it. But,

We get one extra hammer every turn of the game. At least when we aren't working the mined hill. Is that extra hammer (every turn) better than the hammers we get for working the mine?

I still vote for setltling in place but am willing to yield to Indiansmoke and kcd, they are more experienced and better players.

 

[Deckhand]

new topic, new thought:
We have been forewarned that fur is exceedingly rare, however there has been no discussion or revelation about the other clothing resources. Obtaining them may well be non trivial. Another reason not to Declare on anyone.

Spoiler :

perhaps each is owned by one and only one AI on its own landmass; with AI having enough to trade extras

 

[Indiansmoke]

So, it comes down to guessing what the map maker did? Unaltered, it sure looks like a resource, only two other places to put them.

epic speed, so do workers cost 90? (I'm at work now)
90/6 vs 90/7 = 15 vs 13 turns. And we lost a turn moving. Fast Worker one turn sooner doesn't seem worth it. But,

We get one extra hammer every turn of the game. At least when we aren't working the mined hill. Is that extra hammer (every turn) better than the hammers we get for working the mine?

I still vote for setltling in place but am willing to yield to Indiansmoke and kcd, they are more experienced and better players.

Guys sorry but this is basic stuff...I cannot believe we are even discussing this

First...in place produces 4 hammers per turn towards a worker not 6 and on plains hill produces 5...so 90/4=23 turns for worker 90/5=18 turns ....4 worker turns just like that, 4 turns corn earlier etc etc....that is for first worker, second worker will come alot earlier as well due to faster improved land and the extra hammer, settler much earlier etc etc....the effect is a snowball running down a hill, it starts small and it is massive at the end.

Now for the first 100 turns consider that the plains hill is 100 free hammers! Why on earth would we want to throw away 100 free hammers + lots of worker turns and extra food etc etc


The only reason one could argue is that settling on plains hill would leave capital with no hills, but that seems not true.

 

[narri]

Now that I've thought about it a little bit, I will change my answer and agree with Indiansmoke. Settle on the Plains Hill. Even if we get a Tundra tile or two, we're not gunning for effective size 20 cities. And the snowball argument is compelling. No hunting for a while that means (at least until after we confirm we didn't settle on Copper or Iron!). We DO need hunting by the end so that the Holy Fur is active!

EDIT: Oh great, now I have to change my answer again! Umm, we aren't guaranteed ANY other hills if we settle on the bare hill (except maybe my fog-gazing Tundra hill). Methinks it could be a trap by the Devil Satan! Man, this is tough.

 

[Deckhand]

I counted food as well as hammers and the tile that our citizen would be working.

On hill: 2f + 2h plus 3f (or 2f + h in forest) = 7
In place: 2f + 1h plus 3 = 6.

am I missing something? [edit: yup - as narri points out]

maybe if we were expansive (hammer multiplier for workers) then just looking at hammers would be valid

100 free hammers is compelling - IF you can say you would make the same choice if you KNEW you were settling on copper

 

[narri]

I counted food as well as hammers and the tile that our citizen would be working.

On hill: 2f + 2h plus 3f (or 2f + h in forest) = 7
In place: 2f + 1h plus 3 = 6.

am I missing something?

You're missing the fact that the first population consumes 2 food (and thus does not become hammers). Thus we're choosing between 4 and 5 (post-calculation) hammers per turn, as Indiansmoke said.