SGOTM 11 - Unusual Suspects

[Deckhand]

I've downloaded the save, but won't be able to post a PPP or do any experimenting until late tonight.

Spoiler :

I'm late to work, and have plans for the evening. Will probably manage to read and post sometime during the day. But no playing.
late tonight = 11 or 12 Pacific time = 4 am GMT

If you want to keep turn order, I'm willing to execute PPP developed by others. These early turns need to be done carefully but we shouldn't spend too much time between them.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Pssst... I said by PM (so I could delete without reading it and thereby spare myself the broken heart).

I've quickly tested two options from where we are now: 1) warrior>warrior>worker
2) warrior>worker>warrior

Both end up with 2 warrior and 2 worker at turn 45. The only difference is that doing option 1 we are at pop4 but in option 2 we are at pop 3. (2irr corn, 1 mined silver in both cases). We also have 3 worker turns into first chop in option 2 that are not there in option 1.

In option 1, you get the second warrior same turn we become pop4, so just in time to avoid unhappiness, i.e. the first worker can explore NE directly in either option.

In option 2, you get silver mine 1 turn before pop3, so its a superfluous 1 turn faster mine. In option 1 you work 2 forests (and 2 corn) until the mine is done while buiilding the 2nd worker at pop4 (2nd worker builds in 7 turns instead of 10 turns).

At that point we can chop out a settler (2-pop whip also???) or whatever.

I have not tested going for a settler before we have 2 worker + 2 warrior, but that might be something to investigate. With all these wild animals running around though (note, in actual game I saw a wolfpack to the south - I should have mentioned that already) we surely want to escort (to fogbust for) the settler.


In case its not obvious from the above, I prefer option 1 above of the two options tested by me to date. Perhaps focus on faster settler is more appropriate.

And Deckhand, please give our warriors some macho names... I fear that was my biggest mistake in failing to do so.

Lets be carefull with this...there are many options....I suggest the turns until growth to size 2 be played anyways (by improving 2 corns and continuing bronze) but stop as soon as we hit size 2.

 

[kcd_swede]

I've downloaded the save, but won't be able to post a PPP or do any experimenting until late tonight.

If you want to keep turn order, I'm willing to execute PPP developed by others. These early turns need to be done carefully but we shouldn't spend too much time between them.

Everyone should be involved in the planning. As per suggestion by Indiansmoke, we would play to pop2 and your (yet to be approved) PPP looks like this at the moment:

turnset 2 (part1): duration - to pop2

City management:
work the southern corn

Units:
worler -- rename. continue irrigating southern corn, when complete, move to north corn and start irrigating, when irrigated move to silver and start mining

there are no other units before size 2. IIRC, the 2nd irrigation is not completed before size 2 either.

Builds:
continue building warrior until size 2 pop

Techs:
Continue researching BW (won't get before size 2)

Diplo
No heads on poles

Other
Look at demograph screen and screenshot often.

Actions:
STOP FOR PAUSE POINT AT SIZE 2

I hope you know that "playing" or "experimenting" with the official save is verbotten (that mean forbidden!) at this time. As my wife advises: You can look, but don't touch.

Lets be carefull with this...there are many options....I suggest the turns until growth to size 2 be played anyways (by improving 2 corns and continuing bronze) but stop as soon as we hit size 2.

I agree... I think we may still want to consider settler by turn 45 or something else.

@ETa: no... you are right. 2 warriors not needed to escort. I meant 1 to escort by going out in front and fogbusting rather than being on same tile as settler like formal escort. The need for second warrior comes from speed at which we reach size 4 and get 2 unhappy faces for not having a warrior in the city. But if we make plans for keeping pop below (or slaving soon after reaching) 4, then the 2nd warrior can wait. Please try some tests everyone... we want to find the optimum and my loss of warrior maybe changes what that would be from what we originally were thinking.

 

[Deckhand]

I can play tonight, up to pop 2, per kcd's PPP.

Spoiler :

IFF green lighted

yes, I do understand sgotm rules and team rules about "touching" the save

Spoiler :

you get to look?

 

[Indiansmoke]

Run a few tests

In both all tests improve 2 corn first

Scenario 1

Grow size 2 continue warrior for 1 turn to finish him then start worker. Finish worker both workers one chop move towards silver so no moves are lost. When at size 3 start settler finish him with the chops....

result
settler turn 48
capital size 3
21 hammers overflow
2 warriors build
7 turns to pottery

Scenario 2

Grow size 2 continue warrior for 1 turn to finish him then start worker. Finish worker both workers one chop move towards silver so no moves are lost. When at size 4 start settler and 2 pop slave him adding all the chops on the way....

result
settler turn 48
capital size 2
59 hammers overflow
11 turns to pottery
3 warriors build


So in scenario 1 we have 1 more pop n capital and more tech and in scenario 2 we have one more warrior and 38 more hammers.


Scenario 3

Grow size 4 making 2 warriors, start worker at size 4 and 2pop slave him, then make settler at size 2 using chops

result
settler turn 47 (or turn 45 without improved silver)
capital size 2
21 hammers overflow
1 turns to wheel (ie 14 to pottery)
3 warriors build

So as you see things are not clear cut....which one would you chose?

 

[Indiansmoke]

I can play tonight, up to pop 2, per kcd's PPP.

Spoiler :

IFF green lighted

green light from me...exept from move to silver thing!


But you will hit pop 2 before you improve second corn anyhow..

 

[Deckhand]

...
Ensure that you have the autosave settings to 1. ...
And set the first-turn-setting to first turn = 0. This will reduce future confusion. Set MaxAutoSaves in CivilizationIV.ini to a value greater than the length of your turn set. Please remember to backup your autosaves after your turnset to enable review later.

check, check, set to 20,

played to pop 2.
press enter, press enter, press enter, press enter, press enter, press enter, press enter
moved Paul Bunyan to corn
uploaded game

Spoiler :

note, technically I didn't have a green light from our glorious leader and I would not have played if there was anything to DO.

Spoiler :

Reference number: 10053
Game: C-IV SGOTM 11
Your team: Unusual Suspects
Your name: Deckhand
Date submitted: 2010-04-29
Software Version: BtS 3.19
Game date: 3300BC
Player race: India
Firaxis score: 89
Session time played (hh:mm:ss): 00:04:32
Total time played (hh:mm:ss): 00:32:10
Game status: Incomplete
Submitted save: Gandhi BC-3300.CivBeyondSwordSave
Renamed file: Unusual_Suspects_SG011_BC3300_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Session Log:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 3525 BC to 3300 BC:

Turn 27, 3325 BC: Delhi will grow to size 2 on the next turn.

Turn 28, 3300 BC: Delhi has grown to size 2.

 

[Deckhand]

PPP turns 28-35
turnset 2 (part2): to second worker built or corn irrigated or BW discovered

Spoiler :

start to irrigate corn, hit enter ...

City management: work both corns

Units: worker -- irrigate northern corn, when complete, pause
warrior – explore NE

Spoiler :

woo hoo! something to do
I like exploring.

Builds: finish building warrior, then start on worker

Techs: Continue researching BW (pause when complete)

Diplo: No heads on poles

Spoiler :

and leave the ears attached to the heads

Other: Look at demographics screen and screenshot occasionally.

----
Decisions before green light:
- Do we really want 2nd worker immediately? Alternatives: more warriors or earlier settler.
- warrior direction

Decisions before proceeding farther (beyond the above):
What to do with workers?
Which scenario to settler (Indiansmoke’s 3 choices or other possibilities?) (I like 3 pop city working silver)
Tech path (wheel, pottery)

 

[kcd_swede]

check, check, set to 20,

played to pop 2.
press enter, press enter, press enter, press enter, press enter, press enter, press enter
moved Paul Bunyan to corn
uploaded game

Spoiler :

note, technically I didn't have a green light from our glorious leader and I would not have played if there was anything to DO.

OMG! You went through a RED LIGHT!!!???? You know you can lose your liscense for that? Lucky for you Eldine is a forgivving goddess.

Just one comment... as Indiansmoke rightly pointed out, moving over the forest to the corn can be optimized by "t1: move to forest, chop 1, interrupt; t2: move to corn , start irrigating". My suggested PPP said nothing about that, just "move to corn" which implies t1: move to corn, t2: start irrigating. Note, in both cases the irrigating starts on the second turn, but in the first case we have already 1 turn of chop extra already done. Its a quirk for fast workers that everyone should think about on their turns to avoid wasting worker moves. I don't know which you did, and I'm not sure I want to know. (whichever, its not like you lost our only military unit or anything...)

OK... lets plan the end of turnset. And to set a good example for new team members, this time lets wait for formal greenlight from captain. (PS, I note IS greenlighted you... have I been usurped? )

 

[kcd_swede]

PPP turns 28-35
turnset 2 (part2):
Decisions before green light:
- Do we really want 2nd worker immediately? Alternatives: more warriors or earlier settler.
- warrior direction

Decisions before proceeding farther (beyond the above):
What to do with workers?
Which scenario to settler (Steelhorse’s 3 choices or other possibilities?) (I like 3 pop city working silver)
Tech path (wheel, pottery)

Huh? Who's Steelhorse?

PPP looks alright, but please DO NOT EXECUTE IT YET. I want we should think about our options carefully. Some questions to help us consider our options follow:

Do we want to try to get CS-sling from Oracle? Silver makes this a good bet we can get it. If so, we need to choose the plan that maximizes tech rate over the next 40 -80 turns.

Do we still think that landgrab is necessary or best way to go? We haven't met anyonne else (or rather, they haven't met us...), so perhaps a few turns earlier with settler is not worth as much as we originally thought?

Real barbarians will start showing up soon... how will we handle that?

Also... do we know if a few turns saved on settler pays off anything before we have explored more?

What are we trying to optimize FOR? Fastest settling REX? Fastest tech? Fastest growth & tile development? Axe rush on Zara? What's the BIG PICTURE here? UN needs fast early tech... do we think we can settle enough cities without war to do that if we use more paced settling? Can we really decide which scenario is best if we don't even have a working strategy to win fast?

Also, I need to consider some stuff like how many forests we used and how long we wait to work the silver and so on before I decide which of the Indiansmoke scenarios I like best. Also, I won't really get a feel for which I like best until I play out them and even experiment other paths. The tests are short and fast, so I'll be able to contribute more opinion in a little while.

 

[kcd_swede]

Please notice power curves... Phoenix Rising power goes from 5 to 13 between t34 and t35. The only way I see that happening is if they have settled on copper and built an axe... which means we have likely settled on copper. (Not sure if building an archer would give that big change, but doubt any sensible team would learn archery and build an archer.). It also might mean they are either planning a rush or are facing barb invasions.

But for us the implications would be that we cannot build cheap warrior once BW is learnt, and the scenarios with/without copper on that settled plainshill should be examined to avoid unpleasant suprises. Oh... wait... someone said we can build warrior if we don't know hunting. Is that correct?

 

[Deckhand]

Just one comment... as Indiansmoke rightly pointed out, moving over the forest to the corn can be optimized by "t1: move to forest, chop 1, interrupt; t2: move to corn , start irrigating". My suggested PPP said nothing about that, just "move to corn" which implies t1: move to corn, t2: start irrigating. Note, in both cases the irrigating starts on the second turn, but in the first case we have already 1 turn of chop extra already done. Its a quirk for fast workers that everyone should think about on their turns to avoid wasting worker moves. I don't know which you did, and I'm not sure I want to know...

Good point - about us optimizing every fast worker move. I tried to move to forest, chop once, and move to corn - but chop option wasn't there! it seems we don't know how to cut down forests yet

Spoiler :

or build roads

guess I misnamed Paul Bunyan

Spoiler :

speaking of misnaming - here I am trying to sleep and I realize I called a teammate the wrong name; these two word names all seem the same to me. So I sprang out of bed, turned the computer back on and fixed my mistake

 

[Deckhand]

Oh... wait... someone said we can build warrior if we don't know hunting. Is that correct?

Yes.

Spoiler :

I just did a world builder test.

Everyone should know this. Like how settling on plains hill is best and you can't chop before learning bronze working. And one green light is not two.

 

[kcd_swede]

I've come up with a build order I might like better than Indiansmoke's 1-3.

Scenario 4 (asumes copper on PH)
Build warrior>warrior>settler>fw
micromanage keeping it so pop growth (to pop4) and 2nd warrior build will occur simultaneously (working pf until corn irrigated, then gf... always showing same number of turns to warrior and growth).

Then build settler at pop4, 2pop whip at first chance (t43). Then build fw at pop2 while whip unhappy dissipates. 1 chop goes to fw and it completes in 46 ready to use in t47.

Spoiler :

I have 1 chop turn into 2 different forests, plus 2 mine turns on the silver... that part could be done better.

Haven't tried it without the copper on ph, but probably should. Doubt it changes anything.

edit to add: no copper on PH makes settler and 2nd fworker 1 turn later unless chop another forest to fw instead of 4 worker turns to mine, (and two turns to 2 different forests) but saving trees might be useful because that 2nd worker is not critical to get 1 turn early.

Here btw is the test save modified to meet start of turnset2, part2.
View attachment 251005

 

[kcd_swede]

Good point - about us optimizing every fast worker move. I tried to move to forest, chop once, and move to corn - but chop option wasn't there! it seems we don't know how to cut down forests yet

I discovered that for myself during the test... I was planning on keeping quiet about this discovery though.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I've come up with a build order I might like better than Indiansmoke's 1-3.

Scenario 4 (asumes copper on PH)
Build warrior>warrior>settler>fw
micromanage keeping it so pop growth and 2nd warrior build will occur simultaneously (working pf until corn irrigated, then gf... always showing same number of turns to warrior and growth).

Then build settler at pop4, 2pop whip at first chance (t43). Then build fw at pop2 while whip unhappy dissipates. 1 chop goes to fw and it completes in 46 ready to use in t47.

Spoiler :

I have 1 chop turn into 2 different forests, plus 2 mine turns on the silver... that part could be done better.

Haven't tried it without the copper on ph, but probably should. Doubt it changes anything.

Here btw is the test save modified to meet start of turnset2, part2.
View attachment 251005

Why do you like this better?

 

[ETa]

Do we still think that landgrab is necessary or best way to go? We haven't met anyonne else (or rather, they haven't met us...), so perhaps a few turns earlier with settler is not worth as much as we originally thought?

Real barbarians will start showing up soon... how will we handle that?

I think we should play to BW (8 turns) and see if it appears. In the process we should be able to build warrior and put at least one chop to the next worker. How do you use Worldbuilder to edit the turn number, city food and hammer count etc?

 

[kcd_swede]

Why do you like this better?

My preference is based on assuming fastest REX strategy is what we are still aiming for. Settler is available 3-4 turns earlier and has the needed escorts. Disadvantage is that the 3rd strong tile is developed later (though at t47 its only getting used in scenario 1).

Your scenarios have advantage if we judge that settling city 2 asap is not optimum for our overall goals. Basically, your scenarios give either more beakers, more pop, or more production depending on which goal we see as more valuable, at expense of settling city2 3-4 turns later.

I like your scenario which has the strong tile (mine) being utilized better than my scenario. Not sure whether using the hammers in the forests or saving them for later is optimum. Using them pre-math, earlier is probably stronger.

If you try it on the last test save I uploaded you will see whether having copper included changes anything in your scenarios. It is possible that Phoenix Rising settled somewhere else, actually.

But like I said, deciding between the different options here will be easier if we first decide what the priority is. But maybe one scenario is best for all objectives; if so please explain.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Which scenario to settler (Indiansmoke’s 3 choices or other possibilities?) (I like 3 pop city working silver)
Tech path (wheel, pottery)

It is the best in terms of tech that is for sure....however the only thing that concerns me about this scenario is barbs....will barbs be an issue by turn 48?

will a warrior be enough to defend our second city?

 

[kcd_swede]

I think we should play to BW (8 turns) and see if it appears. In the process we should be able to build warrior and put at least one chop to the next worker. How do you use Worldbuilder to edit the turn number, city food and hammer count etc?

BW is probably a good point for more discussion. And we won't have any chops into anything before that.

I don't use WB to edit turn number, I simply played from my last test game as we did in the real game. City food and hammer count can be editted in the city edit mode, I think, but I didn't do that either... it should be the same as we got in the official save. Copper is a problem to erase, though, so to simulate "no copper" I work an unforested plain instead of a forested plain (1 less hammer made up by copper in capitol). At size 2 working corn, this method doesn't work, though... so you have to look that the 2nd worker is produced EXACTLY at t47 with the copper there, which would mean t48 without it. Sorry.... I'm pretty clumsy with WB, and when we have more cities this will get to be too much for my skills.