SGOTM 11 - Unusual Suspects

[Indiansmoke]

My preference is based on assuming fastest REX strategy is what we are still aiming for. Settler is available 3-4 turns earlier and has the needed escorts. Disadvantage is that the 3rd strong tile is developed later (though at t47 its only getting used in scenario 1).

Your scenarios have advantage if we judge that settling city 2 asap is not optimum for our overall goals. Basically, your scenarios give either more beakers, more pop, or more production depending on which goal we see as more valuable, at expense of settling city2 3-4 turns later.

I like your scenario which has the strong tile (mine) being utilized better than my scenario. Not sure whether using the hammers in the forests or saving them for later is optimum. Using them pre-math, earlier is probably stronger.

If you try it on the last test save I uploaded you will see whether having copper included changes anything in your scenarios. It is possible that Phoenix Rising settled somewhere else, actually.

But like I said, deciding between the different options here will be easier if we first decide what the priority is. But maybe one scenario is best for all objectives; if so please explain.

Having copper definatelly changes things, not sure it gives 1 turn or not though.

However the scenario of 2 pop slaving settler and staying 1 worker is bad in principle.

In my scenario 3 you can get settler faster if you chop and not improve silver.

So scenario 3 is the way to for fast REX...although I need to be seriously convinced that we need settler that much faster to give up scenario 1.

 

[kcd_swede]

It is the best in terms of tech that is for sure....however the only thing that concerns me about this scenario is barbs....will barbs be an issue by turn 48?

will a warrior be enough to defend our second city?

Probably a warrior is enough... but not certainly. A lot depends on where we settle... ZY city(s) would fogbust a bit for us, if its nearby. Another warrior would be quickly there, too. But if we get a barb archer or axe that early, we're toast. Also, a barb warrior has about same odds of defeating our fortified warrior that the lion had on the fp. How much caution is wise? I don't know.

 

[kcd_swede]

Having copper definatelly changes things, not sure it gives 1 turn or not though.

However the scenario of 2 pop slaving settler and staying 1 worker is bad in principle.

In my scenario 3 you can get settler faster if you chop and not improve silver.

So scenario 3 is the way to for fast REX...although I need to be seriously convinced that we need settler that much faster to give up scenario 1.

Scenario 1 is elegant in that all the power tiles are being utilized in an optimum way. It also ensures that we will be able to build things (granaries & cottages) when we need to, without waiting for the tech. I like fast tech, and a fast tech team will win this game (imo). It might even be advantageous for the scouting warrior to have 2-3 extra turns to find the best settling location.

One suggestion for improving scenario 1 a little is to micromanage... work the forested hill one (he first) turn (instead of unirrigated corn). This loses us 1C and gives 2 less food in city stores, but gains us 1 turn in worker build and settler build, by completing the warrior in 1 turn instead of 2.

I should note though that if you are worried about barbs and city2 at turn 47, I am worried about the capitol. Of course, if we have copper we could whip an axe... Note, scenario 1 probably gives us most flexibility to whip defenses, but it also leaves the capitol completely undefended longest.

Having played all the scenarios mentioned to date... if we have to grab that great city site before Zara (like last game where Ghandi took it in all but 1 or two team's games), scenario 4 is better. BUT... I doubt we see encounter the same problem two times in a row, so I'm comfortable with scenario 1 and go for tech as higher prio. We'll still REX, but 2-3 turns to first settler is porbably not worth the sacrifice in this one.
I'm wishy washy about which to choose, mostly because I don't feel like we have decided on a priority and just are going by "what is good general play principles". It's better than deviating from good general play principles without a specific strategy reason to do so, though.

 

[Indiansmoke]

One suggestion for improving scenario 1 a little is to micromanage... work the forested hill one (he first) turn (instead of unirrigated corn). This loses us 1C and gives 2 less food in city stores, but gains us 1 turn in worker build and settler build, by completing the warrior in 1 turn instead of 2.

.

This is already implemented in scenario 1

I should note though that if you are worried about barbs and city2 at turn 47, I am worried about the capitol. Of course, if we have copper we could whip an axe... Note, scenario 1 probably gives us most flexibility to whip defenses, but it also leaves the capitol completely undefended longest.

Capital has level 2 culture to spot things comming and will have pop to whip in scenario 1...it is second city that we should be worried about.

Having played all the scenarios mentioned to date... if we have to grab that great city site before Zara (like last game where Ghandi took it in all but 1 or two team's games), scenario 4 is better. BUT... I doubt we see encounter the same problem two times in a row, so I'm comfortable with scenario 1 and go for tech as higher prio. We'll still REX, but 2-3 turns to first settler is porbably not worth the sacrifice in this one.
I'm wishy washy about which to choose, mostly because I don't feel like we have decided on a priority and just are going by "what is good general play principles". It's better than deviating from good general play principles without a specific strategy reason to do so, though.

We don't have a plan...true....and we have not even seen the next settling spot towards zara....so I think as well that scenario 1 which gives fast tech and descent RExing at the same time is the way to go.

 

[kcd_swede]

...and we have not even seen the next settling spot towards zara....

No need to rub it in... we know who's fault that is.

 

[Deckhand]

I agree fast REX is what we want.
But is it fast REX to 2 cities or 3 or 4...?
I think we should do some exploring and (tho I like earlier settler and earlier tech) would like two exploring warriors plus escorting warrior before settler is built. These warriors would also help spawnbust and barb spot.
Scenario 4 is fastest to 1st settler. But how about scenario 6 which gets us city 3 sooner?

Goals:
Identify City sites
Found 2nd City
Build Oracle
Block creative Zara

and as always, pick on kcd

Spoiler :

aka him who feedeth our warriors to the lions, here Eldine graciously gives us a starting warrior, so we only need to build 3, and what does kcd do?

No need to rub it in...

ah, but there is: See Rule #1.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I agree fast REX is what we want.
But is it fast REX to 2 cities or 3 or 4...?
I think we should do some exploring and (tho I like earlier settler and earlier tech) would like two exploring warriors plus escorting warrior before settler is built. These warriors would also help spawnbust and barb spot.
Scenario 4 is fastest to 1st settler. But how about scenario 6 which gets us city 3 sooner?

Goals:
Identify City sites
Found 2nd City
Build Oracle
Block creative Zara

and as always, pick on kcd

Spoiler :

aka him who feedeth our warriors to the lions, here Eldine graciously gives us a starting warrior, so we only need to build 3, and what does kcd do?

ah, but there is: See Rule #1.

All valid points

We can insert a second warrior in scenario one before settler, that involves growing to size 4 while making second warrior and then 1 pop slaving settler...that gives us 2 warriors and a settler in turn49...only one turn delay...but this needs further thought obviously...what is the grand plan? Are we going for Oracle? If yes after how many cities?

 

[SteelHorse]

Huh? Who's Steelhorse?

Hey guys - nice to know not completely forgotten. Not enough time to commit to this one. You seem to have it well in hand. Wish you the best

SH

 

[kcd_swede]

All valid points

We can insert a second warrior in scenario one before settler, that involves growing to size 4 while making second warrior and then 1 pop slaving settler...that gives us 2 warriors and a settler in turn49...only one turn delay...but this needs further thought obviously...what is the grand plan? Are we going for Oracle? If yes after how many cities?

I thought 1pop whips were going to become a problem with this much food. Shouldn't 2pop whips be more efficient? Does the extra turn mean the settler can be fully chopped instead of whipped at all?

BTW: If its another warrior needed, why not do so and grow to pop4 before the 2nd worker? Try it. Just take Scenario 4 and put the whips/chops in different places.

Has anybody got any idea what turn we should get Oracle if we don't want to lose it to AI?

IMO, Oracle is only really worth the diversion if we're going to get something really good from it, like Civil Service. If we want CS-sling, our tech path: "writing-myst-med/poly-ph-CoL-Math(bulb or tech)" and settling (capitol +1 or 2 city) and military action (none) is pretty much almost unbendingly determined by that choice.

Since CS-sling gives +50% on everything when obtained so early, the winning team will probably have gotten this sling - unless gamemakers manipulated it to be almost impossible (give Ramses some marble in bfc ). Early tech rate in Bur can't be matched by anything else (OK, maybe Pyrmid/GLib Repr specialists more than match it). Are we doin' the UN? How are we doin' it fastest? That should tell us what to try to optimize to.

OK... ok... I understand thse questions aren't getting us anywhere because we don't have enough info to really decide. But we have to make decisions with imperfect knowledge.

Here, btw, is an updated test save, if you'd like to test settling choices within the presently visible area. Either this or the older save will let you test build orders, though (but I have assumed copper on our settled hill).

View attachment 251086

Perhaps we ought to play to BW (once we decide on the build order... are we going for another worker here at size 2, or get that other warrior now which brings us t osize 4? note, you will have unworked silver longer if you do the 2nd worker first).

 

[kcd_swede]

Hey guys - nice to know not completely forgotten. Not enough time to commit to this one. You seem to have it well in hand. Wish you the best

SH

Thanks for the wishes! We'll all miss your contributions. But Deckhand is especially dazed and confused by your absence.

Take it EZ!

 

[Indiansmoke]

No need to rub it in... we know who's fault that is.

I just checked the power graphs and guess what....we are the only ones that lost the warrior.....so here is a fish slap for you

 

[Indiansmoke]

So back to what we have to do....


Swede made a good point about CS Oracle sling being huge....but can we get it at emperor level with the land we have?

My guess is yes but it needs some serious testing, planning and some luck...but I think we should go for it

Fact: CS sling needs alot of tech, so in order to have any chance we need to work the silver continiously.

Fact 2: For any chance at CS sling we need library and run 2 scientists in capital

So in the light of the above any scenario that slaves off our silver is out of the question.

all slaves have to happen at size 4 and above...size 5 for 2 pop slave, size 6 for 3 pop slave (maybe 3 pop slave library?).

Question is if pottery before writting will accelerate things...needs to be tested.

Tech path to be tested...BW, wheel, pottery, writting, math, meditation, priesthood, CoL.

 

[kcd_swede]

So back to what we have to do....

Question is if pottery before writting will accelerate things...needs to be tested.

Tech path to be tested...BW, wheel, pottery, writting, math, meditation, priesthood, CoL.

Depends... if we will bulb Math, then we need to get to writing asap, and that's through pottery. Use the corn for running 2 Sci specialists asap, while working silver always. We should test to see how fast we can get the sling. At emperor level if we can get it before 1200BC we should be safe. Could get it as late as 800BC, but don't count on that.

If we want to try it without a GS-bulb, then we would go the fastest way to the techs there. Wheel and pottery could be left off the list, though wheel gives us +1 happy face with silver road. BW>med>ph>writing>math>CoL with math-powered chops to give Oracle timed with CoL.

With the Math bulb is definitely faster, and more efficient use of commerce to beakers with library. Also, makes best use of PHI trait. Why did I even mention the second option? Oh, yeah, I was thinking about how to approach it without pottery. Forget I said anything.

What can go wrong? Ramses with marble Oracle goes in 2000BC; or need to adddress barb defense delays library or specialists. Or... need to get another settler out in time to block Zara; or...

With no early rush planned and high commerce tile with excess food, we'd have to be CRAZY to not at least try for the CS-sling.

Oh, btw, sorry (again) about the warrior thing. Look at it this way... it makes our curve stand out from the crowd and garners us more awe when we win the gold laurels.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Depends... if we will bulb Math, then we need to get to writing asap, and that's through pottery. Use the corn for running 2 Sci specialists asap, while working silver always. We should test to see how fast we can get the sling. At emperor level if we can get it before 1200BC we should be safe. Could get it as late as 800BC, but don't count on that.

If we want to try it without a GS-bulb, then we would go the fastest way to the techs there. Wheel and pottery could be left off the list, though wheel gives us +1 happy face with silver road. BW>writing>math>med>ph>CoL with math-powered chops to give Oracle timed with CoL.

With the Math bulb is definitely faster, and more efficient use of commerce to beakers with library. Also, makes best use of PHI trait. Why did I even mention the second option? Oh, yeah, I was thinking about how to approach it without pottery. Forget I said anything.

What can go wrong? Ramses with marble Oracle goes in 2000BC; or need to adddress barb defense delays library or specialists. Or... need to get another settler out in time to block Zara; or...

With no early rush planned and high commerce tile with excess food, we'd have to be CRAZY to not at least try for the CS-sling.

Oh, btw, sorry (again) about the warrior thing. Look at it this way... it makes our curve stand out from the crowd and garners us more awe when we win the gold laurels.

Good points captain...we can skip wheel and pottery and just go priesthood writting...it is very ugly and dangerous to stay without roads for so long, but might be what will make the difference.....need to test how all this times out.


No worries about the warrior, who cares, just kidding

 

[narri]

CS-sling would be awesome for us. Here are my thoughts:
1) We don't need Wheel/Pottery at all for Writing. But waiting until Priesthood...hmm...
2) Note that the Silver and our city is ON THE SAME RIVER, meaning we will get the +1 happy once the mine is built automatically (no need for road). WB it yourself if you don't believe me!
3) Every commerce counts here. We have 1 silver on a river, not 2, so it won't be easy.
4) We should play to BW to check for copper.
5) Big limiting factor is tech, not hammers (especially since we can chop like mad, unlike my previous tries at CS-slings, see below).


I've tried out CS-slings in Emperor only for Challenge I.7 (OCC Space, Inland Sea, Emperor, NORMAL Speed). I think I got Oracle around 1500 BC usually (but that was with 2 food, 2 gold or gems). I usually Academ-ied the first GS, but that was with Space (and the fact I could try again if I failed) in mind. We may have to bulb Math here. Anyway, it's up to the Devil Satan how fast those comps get Oracle (in Normal speed, it went as early as ~1760 BC!). In OCC, I didn't have to worry about barbs screwing up Oracle (though they were maddening when trying for a subsequent Pyramids). How does this change when we can build more cities?

<insert angry statement about how losing warrior screws up our knowledge of where to put settler here!>

 

[Indiansmoke]

CS-sling would be awesome for us. Here are my thoughts:

2) Note that the Silver and our city is ON THE SAME RIVER, meaning we will get the +1 happy once the mine is built automatically (no need for road). WB it yourself if you don't believe me!

Good point

4) We should play to BW to check for copper.

No we need a plan first to see if we go worker now or second warrior.

 

[kcd_swede]

Report from test game 1: very ugly.

Build warrior>warrior>fw>settler>Oracle(part)>library(2popwhip)>Oracle(part)>fw(to avoid growth) not sure all... just juggled stuff until CoL was done.

tech path BW>med>ph>writing> (math bulb) >CoL

With 1Sci spec a GSci takes about 24 turns, this matches what it takes for CoL since we only have one decent commerce tile. Pottery would probably help some there, but cost more beakers to sling overall -- probably not a good payback, but needs to be tested. when pop5, 2GSci speed up CoL a good bit. Best if we know that we can get to pop6 due to silver or not. (In test game we cannot, without roads).

Only able to use 1 GS because at pop4 want to keep working corn and mine, though if in real game we get +1 happy face, we can run 2 sci. (Happy cap 5, -1 for libr whip).

In any case, limiting factor is CoL. I get CS-sling in 1625BC (t95), got GS 4 turns earlier and bulbed math. Oracle could have been built totally without chops, I did not do optimum here.

Status is 2 cities... second city could put out another settler in this time if needed, and worker chops go there, I built library instaed.

More worker turns than we know what to do with (I just prechopped everything in site, build some mines, etc... kinda aimless). I also had research at 80% after settling second city... and didn't notice this was too low until later when I had 32 gold surplus, swithced to 100% and had -3 gpt. Ended with 7gold in treasury. Would have been better with a single turn 0% to collect 25gold before library built, then 100% at defict rest of way. I think this path can do it by t92 or maybe even better, if some optimization is done.

And if we have the silver. I don't think copper affects much since it is not production-limited by any means. In such case, perhaps whipping the library was stupid.

 

[Indiansmoke]

OK just tried it and it looks very good.

Result: 3 cities, Oracle CS sling t94 1650bc.

Tech path: BW, wheel, pottery, writing, medi, priesthood,Col, math bulb ---- CS

Developement - after 1 turn warrior make worker, both workers 1 turn chop towad silver...improve silver grow size 4 making 2 more warriors after worker and then start settler....use 3chop in settler save the rest....cottage capital immidiatelly after pottery and grow it to max size 6 building axe then stat settler as soon as happy cap. as soon as writting chop libary in capital and 2 pop slave library in second city, run 1 scientist for a whilein capital then 2 to bulb math.

Key is to food share one corn with second city in order to grow fast ad whip library....

 

[Deckhand]

updated PPP turns 28-35
turnset 2 (part2): to BW discovered
City management: switch to hammers for one turn to get warrior, then work both corns

Units: worker -- irrigate northern corn, when complete, head to silver one chopping on the way

warrior – explore NE

Builds: finish building warrior, then start on worker

Techs: Continue researching BW (pause when complete)

Diplo: Peace is the Way
Other: Look at demographics screen and screenshot occasionally.

----
Questions:
- Put any chopping into 2nd worker?
- Play past bronzeworking?
- Is Classical_Hero in the house?

Plan: Indiansmoke’s path to CS Oracle

Note: will be available to play in ~10 hours. I won't proceed without green lights.
also note: barbarians start on turn 20 for Emperor
[I don't think that scales with game speed]
WooHoo! No more lions!

 

[Indiansmoke]

updated PPP turns 28-35
turnset 2 (part2): to BW discovered
City management: switch to hammers for one turn to get warrior, then work both corns

Units: worker -- irrigate northern corn, when complete, head to silver one chopping on the way

warrior – explore NE

Builds: finish building warrior, then start on worker

Techs: Continue researching BW (pause when complete)

Diplo: Peace is the Way
Other: Look at demographics screen and screenshot occasionally.

----
Questions:
- Put any chopping into 2nd worker?
- Play past bronzeworking?
- Is Classical_Hero in the house?

Plan: Indiansmoke’s path to CS Oracle

Note: will be available to play in ~10 hours. I won't proceed without green lights.
also note: barbarians start on turn 20 for Emperor
[I don't think that scales with game speed]
WooHoo! No more lions!

green light from me

Small note....since we will be doing alot of 1 turn, chopping roading etc and moving on it would be nice to mark the tiles to keep track of what is done....