SGOTM 11 - Unusual Suspects

kcd_swede · May 13, 2010

Indiansmoke said:
Sorry for taking so long to get to this, work has been mad!

Regarding thoughts to abandon CS race, I think this statement sums it up for me

After some testing I think slaving te library is not as efficient so here is the plan I like:

second city goes to 1w of copper to share both corns
Capital starts worker and uses both corns until size 6.
Both workers road on copper, chop plains tile for worker and then start cottaging 1N of capital, then cottage 1S then 1SW and then 1W, then improve copper and then chop libraries first second city and then in capital.

Second city makes settler after library and runs 2 scientists, capital stays all cottages.

RESULT : We have another settler turn 93 and Oracle CS turn 94 and capital size 6 with 4 hamlets.

Key is to get math first and then chop last3 forests in capital for Oracle.

If you are OK with this I can make PPP for first 15-20 turns of plan.

That's a very good result indeed. I think the 1NW site has more long-term potential, but understand that we should get to UN before we need that city to carry a lot of weight. What I really like about your plan (much like my option 2) is that cottages have already been develped in time to make most use of them with CS.

Write up the PPP as you see fit. You are welcome to practise it a few times... my own experience shows that if you miss just one worker move or build turn or slave at wrong time it is easy to lose a turn (or more). So if you're confident you can reproduce it easily on the test game, then we'll be ready to let you do it for real.

Now... we need some "What could go wrong?" plans to consider as well. Like Narri points out, if the Oracle has been mapbuilded to go unusually early, then the teams that handle the set-back and make best adjustments will excel. So a stop of course if Oracle is built iafal, for re-planning. What else can go wrong? We could find other AI much closer than we expected, or find we are isolated with Zara... but those shouldn't be anything that interupts our sling plans. Anything else we can think of? Oh yes... barbs. Barbs could definitely screw up the plans and require an extra defense unit or more. That could force a set-back of the date. So it might be good to pause also if barbs show up that could cause trouble. Lions don't count.

But we won't know until we start playing again, so a PPP is in order.

Indiansmoke · May 13, 2010

You can tell from graphs that OSS won Oracle turn 93, my test time is turn 94, but at least I think we can be a bit more relaxed on chasing CS now that we can see another team got it on turn 93.

Also it is a one way road now, either get CS or forget first place.

Indiansmoke · May 13, 2010

PPP turns 53-73

Techs:

Pottery, writting, medi, priesthood, COL (bulb math)

City management:

Capital: builds worker and then grows size 6 making warriors and using both corns

Second city: Settled 1W from copper, makes warriors and then library.

Units:

workers -- both road on copper then chop plains forest for capital worker then cottage N, S, SW and W of capital, the improve copper.

warrior explore and after open borders go through zara land. another warrior explore west.

Diplo:

Peace is the Way, open borders after writting.

Other:

Look at demographics screen and screenshot occasionally.

----

kcd_swede · May 13, 2010

Deckhand has given agreement already to the general plan, and Narri didn't have any objections other than we start thinkning about what can go wrong. I'm good with the plan because I've tested a lot and can't get as good result myself, so it must be a REALLY great plan!

When did you want to play? For formality sake I would like to wait 24hrs before I give the greenlight, so if someone thinks up something in the meantime now is the time to bring it up.

Let me know if the 24hrs messes up your schedule, Indiansmoke. I can greenlight it sooner if you want... you've got the experience to recognize if there's any unexpected events worthy of a pause for team discussion.

Indiansmoke · May 13, 2010

kcd_swede said:
Deckhand has given agreement already to the general plan, and Narri didn't have any objections other than we start thinkning about what can go wrong. I'm good with the plan because I've tested a lot and can't get as good result myself, so it must be a REALLY great plan!

When did you want to play? For formality sake I would like to wait 24hrs before I give the greenlight, so if someone thinks up something in the meantime now is the time to bring it up.

Let me know if the 24hrs messes up your schedule, Indiansmoke. I can greenlight it sooner if you want... you've got the experience to recognize if there's any unexpected events worthy of a pause for team discussion.

OK cool, I plan on playing one of these nights when I get the time, today, tommorow or Saturday.

kcd_swede · May 13, 2010

Indiansmoke said:
OK cool, I plan on playing one of these nights when I get the time, today, tommorow or Saturday.

OK, you have the green-light for whichever date fits your schedule best. Just check in here before you actually start playing in case someone has discovered that disaster is about to befall us.

Indiansmoke · May 13, 2010

Played session, it seems weare alone with zara in a continent...and he got a settler out 2 turn ago.

We are almost according to plan, some more worker turns were needed to chop in real save than in test and it puts us 3 worker turns behind, but should not make difference at the end.

No world wonders build yet....

session log

Spoiler :

narri · May 13, 2010

Very, very interesting situation going on here. Zara is going Sailing, which means those galleys will let him settle elsewhere even if we block him in. Especially with the next island so close in the northeast. And that desert to the NW may just force Zara to do that anyway, even before blocking him in!

Anyway, it looks like its not going to be too much trouble to get a bunch of good cities around, as long as the fogbusters keep doing their job! We could use a coastal city ourselves, methinks.

Spoiler :

I'm feeling really tempted to chop off Zara's head right after CS, leaving him with a landlocked city. Teams that decide on axe-rushing may get a decent short-term advantage (but I think CS wins out here, so my bloodlust is a bit premature). Though if he happens to build GLH for us... :hammer:

Deckhand · May 13, 2010

Smaller than I expected but still big enough for 6 - 8 cities even if Zara gets eastern half. Small enough to spawn bust with Eldine's warriors.

Spoiler :

Indiansmoke · May 14, 2010

narri said:
I'm feeling really tempted to chop off Zara's head right after CS, leaving him with a landlocked city. Teams that decide on axe-rushing may get a decent short-term advantage (but I think CS wins out here, so my bloodlust is a bit premature). Though if he happens to build GLH for us...

So am I

I forgot to mention Zara is teching sailing!

kcd_swede · May 14, 2010

Please keep your swords in their scabbards for the time being!

OK, good job Indiansmoke!

Do we need a break to discuss some decision that will have to be made before CS-sling is done?

Can INdiansmoke write up the plan to the CS-sling?

Does the team want to let Indiansmoke finish the sling, or should the honors go to next player (Narri, I think is up next)? How does INdiansmoke feel about that... is it very complicated micro required or can it be easily enough explained for a player as competent as Narri? Narri, how do you feel about it... are you up to playing one of the MOST CRITICAL TURNSETs in our game (so far), or do you feel more comfortable taking the set after Indiansmoke finishes the sling (which will be the absolute MOST IMPORTANT TURNSET of the game)?

How's the team feel? Feeling good? If we want to be rule-conscious, I say the turnset goes to the next player. But we're playing with half a team, seems like, so if folks get longer sets it don't bother me one bit. Let's do what feels good.

Talk to me, people. :king:

kcd_swede · May 14, 2010

Deckhand said:
kcd - regarding narri's comment, you will note that all the warriors had some plot defense.

You mean floodplains don't give plot defense? Huh? Don't lions get stuck in the mud? What a rip-off. :cry:

narri · May 14, 2010

kcd_swede said:
Does the team want to let Indiansmoke finish the sling, or should the honors go to next player (Narri, I think is up next)? How does INdiansmoke feel about that... is it very complicated micro required or can it be easily enough explained for a player as competent as Narri? Narri, how do you feel about it... are you up to playing one of the MOST CRITICAL TURNSETs in our game (so far), or do you feel more comfortable taking the set after Indiansmoke finishes the sling (which will be the absolute MOST IMPORTANT TURNSET of the game)?

Let Indiansmoke write up the plan at least. I will probably let him get to CS as well.

But before we finish up CS, I want to talk about our plans for post-CS:
1) Now that we see a good chunk of decent land that should be ours, do we now power REX to acquire spots (and we have to decide on spots anyway).
2) Though locally we are doing well, note that we haven't really made much progress as to the overall goals (4 resources + meeting all the AI). And because this looks like a bunch of mid-size islands (or a very snaky continent DS made into islands), we need scouting information via sea (or map trading).
3) Zara is a very interesting character. He is teching sailing, so it looks like he wants to settle the land to his northeast. So we have at least two techs to get from him on the way to Astronomy. Or he could be going GLH. And you know of my opinion if that happens

.
4) What is our next tech goal? Should we go to Paper>Edu right away for Oxford? Compass/Optics for carvels? Construction and kill Zara? Aes + Lit for Great Lib? Theo and deny AP?
5) Are we truly going for Diplo? Cultural is still available really (though the lack of Marble hurts). Especially since we don't know how advanced our military tech needs to be to get the fur!
6) I just tested for techs that obsolete warriors. Seems like as long as we don't research Hunting and don't get Iron specifically, we can make warriors all the way until rifles! And even if we have Iron, as long as we don't have Hunting or Engineering we can make warriors.

So I actually don't agree with the immediate post-CS turnset as the MOST important one, but rather the turnset we discover where the fur is and how we react to it. But still rather important anyway.

Deckhand · May 14, 2010

kcd_swede said:
You mean floodplains don't give plot defense? Huh? Don't lions get stuck in the mud? What a rip-off.

Flood plains provide unhealthiness. Your warrior probably was diseased or at least had the flu.

narri said:
Let Indiansmoke write up the plan at least. I will probably let him get to CS as well.

But before we finish up CS, I want to talk about our plans for post-CS:
1) Now that we see a good chunk of decent land that should be ours, do we now power REX to acquire spots (and we have to decide on spots anyway).
2) Though locally we are doing well, note that we haven't really made much progress as to the overall goals (4 resources + meeting all the AI). And because this looks like a bunch of mid-size islands (or a very snaky continent DS made into islands), we need scouting information via sea (or map trading).
3) Zara is a very interesting character. He is teching sailing, so it looks like he wants to settle the land to his northeast. So we have at least two techs to get from him on the way to Astronomy. Or he could be going GLH. And you know of my opinion if that happens .
4) What is our next tech goal? Should we go to Paper>Edu right away for Oxford? Compass/Optics for carvels? Construction and kill Zara? Aes + Lit for Great Lib? Theo and deny AP?
5) Are we truly going for Diplo? Cultural is still available really (though the lack of Marble hurts). Especially since we don't know how advanced our military tech needs to be to get the fur!
6) I just tested for techs that obsolete warriors. Seems like as long as we don't research Hunting and don't get Iron specifically, we can make warriors all the way until rifles! And even if we have Iron, as long as we don't have Hunting or Engineering we can make warriors.

So I actually don't agree with the immediate post-CS turnset as the MOST important one, but rather the turnset we discover where the fur is and how we react to it. But still rather important anyway.

Yes, let's talk about our post CS plans now. No need to hold up on CS turnset.
1) yes, let's start identifying and priortizing city spots
2) true
3) will Zara trade techs with us if he thinks he has a monopoly (i.e. before he meets anyone else)?
4) paper/edu/liberalism (but that's the path I almost always take); denying other civs liberalism > circumnavigation; and fastest tech path if UN path is tech limited
5) I trust kcd's experience that diplomacy is faster and more controlable - he was the only one to achieve a cultural victory in the diety BOTM :cool:

so he knows how to do culture; also using four less great people than normal (of course can use generals) impacts culture path more than UN path; we should certainly keep our options open
6) that's good news; still I got the scaredy-cat (sth like that) award for our sgotm10 and I'd like us to build ~8 warriors asap; they can spawn bust and city garrison

7) what wonders should we be prioritizing?
8) what great people should we plan on?
9) I've said it before and I'll say it again: no wars until we have met everyone and know where the resources are

Spoiler :

Indiansmoke · May 16, 2010

OK will do the PPP to CS later today.

kcd_swede · May 16, 2010

Deckhand said:
Yes, let's talk about our post CS plans now. No need to hold up on CS turnset.

5) I trust kcd's experience that diplomacy is faster and more controlable - he was the only one to achieve a cultural victory in the diety BOTM so he knows how to do culture; also using four less great people than normal (of course can use generals) impacts culture path more than UN path; we should certainly keep our options open
6) that's good news; still I got the scaredy-cat (sth like that) award for our sgotm10 and I'd like us to build ~8 warriors asap; they can spawn bust and city garrison

7) what wonders should we be prioritizing?
8) what great people should we plan on?
9) I've said it before and I'll say it again: no wars until we have met everyone and know where the resources are

Spoiler :

OTOH, if we could get Zara to DoW on us before he/we meet anyone else - nice way to get more population etc w/o diplo negatives
this may be hard to do and requires spoiling our relatonship and thus losing his UN votes...

Agree... CS-plan and execution do not need to be delayed for the rest of this very interesting and important subject.
5) you must be mistaking me for someone else. I got the religion award on the deity BOTM. Yes, I know how to do a culture victory, but no, I'm not very good at the execution.
6) Having enough warriors at the end will be the least difficult challenge... I almost always have warriors well into the space age, leftovers from Hered Rule happy making. Getting them on a single-tile heavily defended fur island will be tough though, requiring plenty of shipping (think worst case scenario).
7) GLib and Parth are good for Diplo race. Parth and MoM and Sistines for Culture.
8) GSci for Diplo, GA for culture. A GM or GE never is bad for UN; GE useful only for Sistines in a culture game.
9) Optimally, we'd like to be warring with an ally to gain diplo quickly. Agree that it is too risky to declare now, but if ZY declares we crush him to one city. (Remember we cannot eliminate, and before feudalism we cannot vassalize.) What if each of the required resources is a single resource controlled by a different civ? We would have trouble trading for it, so we might regret using a DOW to get GLH unless we know that it is safe to do so from a resource standpoint.

Indiansmoke said:
OK will do the PPP to CS later today.

Great!

narri said:
Let Indiansmoke write up the plan at least. I will probably let him get to CS as well.

But before we finish up CS, I want to talk about our plans for post-CS:
1) Now that we see a good chunk of decent land that should be ours, do we now power REX to acquire spots (and we have to decide on spots anyway).
2) Though locally we are doing well, note that we haven't really made much progress as to the overall goals (4 resources + meeting all the AI). And because this looks like a bunch of mid-size islands (or a very snaky continent DS made into islands), we need scouting information via sea (or map trading).
3) Zara is a very interesting character. He is teching sailing, so it looks like he wants to settle the land to his northeast. So we have at least two techs to get from him on the way to Astronomy. Or he could be going GLH. And you know of my opinion if that happens .
4) What is our next tech goal? Should we go to Paper>Edu right away for Oxford? Compass/Optics for carvels? Construction and kill Zara? Aes + Lit for Great Lib? Theo and deny AP?
5) Are we truly going for Diplo? Cultural is still available really (though the lack of Marble hurts). Especially since we don't know how advanced our military tech needs to be to get the fur!
6) I just tested for techs that obsolete warriors. Seems like as long as we don't research Hunting and don't get Iron specifically, we can make warriors all the way until rifles! And even if we have Iron, as long as we don't have Hunting or Engineering we can make warriors.

So I actually don't agree with the immediate post-CS turnset as the MOST important one, but rather the turnset we discover where the fur is and how we react to it. But still rather important anyway.

1) dot maps aren't my strong suit (what is?), but sure, we should all look at the map and start thinking where to put cities. City 3 we should figure out before the CS sling, since the settler comes one turn before, iirc.
2) makes me think that we might want to look for a coastal spot for city 3 already.
5) Its not settled yet if we really are going for UN. I think at least a contingency is to go cultural. Lack of tech trading slows a UN victory much more than a culture victory, so we need contacts relatively quickly. Is it possible to tell if ZY already has contact with another AI? If we go culture, we are low on religions. Again contact.
10) When we get Confu from CoL (almost a foregone conclusion), what to do with the missionary? Do we want to try to convert ZY or use it to scout or self-spread? My guess is that if ZY has no other contacts he will quickly be Confu even if we do not send a missionary.

That's all my input for the time being.

Keep up the good thinking, team!

Deckhand · May 16, 2010

kcd_swede said:
5) you must be mistaking me for someone else. I got the religion award on the deity BOTM. Yes, I know how to do a culture victory, but no, I'm not very good at the execution.

No, I was mistaking culture and religious victories. I can do culture. I come close but haven't achieved a religious victory.

1) dot maps aren't my strong suit (what is?),

Spoiler :

Is it possible to tell if ZY already has contact with another AI?

Good question. I think I've read that BUG (and presumably BUFFY) has a bug that reveals worst enemy;
if we had alphabet and he was willing to trade, then maybe we could conclude he had a contact
other than that?

If we go culture, we are low on religions.

Religion is essential for fast culture. We will have two soon.

10) When we get Confu from CoL (almost a foregone conclusion), what to do with the missionary? Do we want to try to convert ZY or use it to scout or self-spread? My guess is that if ZY has no other contacts he will quickly be Confu even if we do not send a missionary.

Good question. I think we want to convert him, but you are right it will probably spread to him quickly. Use it to scout Ethiopia. [edit: Leonbane will be done with this soon - he just needs to check out the coasts]

Deckhand · May 16, 2010

kcd_swede said:
1) ... but sure, we should all look at the map and start thinking where to put cities. City 3 we should figure out before the CS sling, since the settler comes one turn before, iirc.

I just downloaded the save and looked at it briefly. Some thoughts.

Zara built his 2nd city in the tile SW of his lake.
There is a flood plain in the west that isn't next to the river.
Putting a city at the spot I labeled blocking city (or 1E) is the only way to get irrigation to the wheat.
Too soon to decide on city locations - need to see north (and south) coast(s)

EDIT: Taking the grassland river area between us and Zara asap may be the best place for 3rd city.
- looks like a 1 tile tundra isle E of ZY, there may or may not be much land in that direction

narri · May 16, 2010

I just looked at the save myself to check on spy points with Zara. It is 244/272, meaning that he has probably met one other AI for a while (14 turns or so?). Which means he probably sent a WB east. Which means we should do the same at some point!

classical_hero · May 17, 2010

I am back. I will have a look and see what has happened so far.

SGOTM 11 - Unusual Suspects

Jag är Viking!½

Deity

Deity

Jag är Viking!½

Deity

Jag är Viking!½

Deity

Warlord

Procrastination at its finest

Deity

Jag är Viking!½

Jag är Viking!½

Warlord

Procrastination at its finest

Deity

Jag är Viking!½

Procrastination at its finest

Procrastination at its finest

Warlord

In whom I trust

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