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SGOTM 11 - Unusual Suspects
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Indiansmoke
Deity
Deckhand very nicely done with worker moves!Now we need some discussion before next turn set. Zara is too close, though the land in between us does not seem that hot (unless some resource hidding in the fog)....and we need to test again as copper is not on capital tile and we will be wasting worker turns from cottaging to improve copper. Need to see how all this works out, will test tonight and come back with thoughts...
If anyone has an updated test map plz post it.
Here is a new test save. The copper is now positioned correctly, and the Bombay? site is a hill as it should be. Most of the tiles you will likely use in the CS-sling tests are therefore as per the game... but if you go outside what was revealed up to turnset 2b, you could get into trouble (check with screenshot to see that tiles are right). Note one important difference... in the test_save you will not have pottery in 1 turn but in 2. So you will need to enter wb after you hit enter the first time and add Pottery as a technology. I did'nt do that since I don't know what worker moves might want to be tested. Don't know why I didn't match Deckhands beaker efficiency, though. Good job Deckhand!
Here's the test save:
View attachment 251649
And to check tiles I've made another screenshot from the official save and attach it here:
View attachment 251650
Have fun getting the best from the tests!
Here's the test save:
View attachment 251649
And to check tiles I've made another screenshot from the official save and attach it here:
View attachment 251650
Have fun getting the best from the tests!
Indiansmoke
Deity
Thanks for the save Swede!
I get the weird feeling zara is blocking us from the rest of the world and that we are all alone on this side!
I get the weird feeling zara is blocking us from the rest of the world and that we are all alone on this side!
thanks for the kudos
; nice picture kcd
Spoiler :
The 2 warrior + settler can't be built faster without more than the 3 chops or a whip (or copper on the PH). You did good.
I'm a little annoyed that the test game is out of sync in beakers, but I can fix that when we get pottery (1 turn). Anyhow, once we get the CS-sling and 3 cities, the testing loses a lot of its value, and we'll have to actually start thinking.
Indiansmoke
Deity
Did some testing and I don't like the way it plays out with settling second city on the hill.
I want to try settling on the plain tile 1NW of copper to use both corns for second city..so patience plz, more testing needed.
I want to try settling on the plain tile 1NW of copper to use both corns for second city..so patience plz, more testing needed.
No hurry. If I ever finish WOTM I'll do some testing too.
I tried three variations with 3 cities and a CS-sling.
1) Bombay as marked on hill; 3 cities and CS-sling at t104. Built monument in Dehli to speed up pop borders for getting copper.
2) Bombay on plains NW of copper; Library whipped in Bombay, run 1 Sci asap, Oracle in Dehli (chopped). 3 cities plus CS-sling at t99.
3) Bombay NW of copper; Lib in Dehli, Oracle in Dehli, 3 cities + CS at t101.
My general observations at this point were: 1 cottage before copper mine is most efficient, since takes that many turns to get pop2 in Bombay so the copper can be worked anyhow. Don't try to make a GS in the city you cottage heavily... you just end up slowing research as cottages or pop cannot grow. With chops available, the CS-sling is research limited, so cottages (and commerce tiles) being worked is highest priority. Bombay cannot get as much commerce, so should be used to make GS. Note: if library whipped ASAP, one Sci spec will acheive the sling by the time CoL is researched... but, use 2 as much as possible since math bulb gives 50% boost on chops as well, so earlier math is desirable. But fastest CoL is how this needs to be micro-managed.
Of the above, #2 was clearly superior, as I had 3 workers, two axemen, and a handful of buildings. It was also fastest. It used more trees, though.
I also tried a 2-city variant, and got the CS-sling in t95 (+ 2 libr, 2 gran). Could surely have another city in 4 turns if needed to be that fast.
I'm playing with the idea that sharing both corn with capitol is even faster, though long-term this would not be a great choice.
I think it might be important to have that thrid city (before libraries) if for no other reason than to block ZY. Is that worth slowing the CoL/Oracle and risk losing it?
Has anyone else done any testing? I'll probably continue testing to see if I can optimize version#2 a bit, but if anyone else is doing tests I'd like to hear how its going!
1) Bombay as marked on hill; 3 cities and CS-sling at t104. Built monument in Dehli to speed up pop borders for getting copper.
2) Bombay on plains NW of copper; Library whipped in Bombay, run 1 Sci asap, Oracle in Dehli (chopped). 3 cities plus CS-sling at t99.
3) Bombay NW of copper; Lib in Dehli, Oracle in Dehli, 3 cities + CS at t101.
My general observations at this point were: 1 cottage before copper mine is most efficient, since takes that many turns to get pop2 in Bombay so the copper can be worked anyhow. Don't try to make a GS in the city you cottage heavily... you just end up slowing research as cottages or pop cannot grow. With chops available, the CS-sling is research limited, so cottages (and commerce tiles) being worked is highest priority. Bombay cannot get as much commerce, so should be used to make GS. Note: if library whipped ASAP, one Sci spec will acheive the sling by the time CoL is researched... but, use 2 as much as possible since math bulb gives 50% boost on chops as well, so earlier math is desirable. But fastest CoL is how this needs to be micro-managed.
Of the above, #2 was clearly superior, as I had 3 workers, two axemen, and a handful of buildings. It was also fastest. It used more trees, though.
I also tried a 2-city variant, and got the CS-sling in t95 (+ 2 libr, 2 gran). Could surely have another city in 4 turns if needed to be that fast.
I'm playing with the idea that sharing both corn with capitol is even faster, though long-term this would not be a great choice.
I think it might be important to have that thrid city (before libraries) if for no other reason than to block ZY. Is that worth slowing the CoL/Oracle and risk losing it?
Has anyone else done any testing? I'll probably continue testing to see if I can optimize version#2 a bit, but if anyone else is doing tests I'd like to hear how its going!
Spoiler :
Indiansmoke
Deity
I did some testing...do not like 1NW of copper either as I want to share both corns, so tested 1W of copper.
I had math and COL turn 89 but was short on Oracle hammers (7 turns short!), so I am trying to work out the ideal worker sequence. I also had second settler on turn 87 or something which came from second city.
so 2 important test paths.
1. Make a third worker now or grow capital?
2. What is teh ideal worker sequence and tiles worked to syncronize cottages and production.
But doing all this I realized that we are seriously delaying REXing to get CS from Oracle....is it worth it? It propably is, just not certain anymore.
I had math and COL turn 89 but was short on Oracle hammers (7 turns short!), so I am trying to work out the ideal worker sequence. I also had second settler on turn 87 or something which came from second city.
so 2 important test paths.
1. Make a third worker now or grow capital?
2. What is teh ideal worker sequence and tiles worked to syncronize cottages and production.
But doing all this I realized that we are seriously delaying REXing to get CS from Oracle....is it worth it? It propably is, just not certain anymore.
Unless we're really unlucky, I think almost any of the CS-sling before t100 options are fairly safe. Perhaps in minimizing the turns to CS-sling we do give up too much. I think a city that shares 2 corn is a bit limited in the long run, but short term when we can hold capitol at happy cap without the corn anyhow, its pretty effective. Hard to judge not knowing the neighborhood how important REX will be how a short-term settling choice can affect us.
I think we should go for CS-sling, but am also thinking that we need 3 cities up and running by then (turn 90-something, probably). The 3rd city plays very little role in the sling (actually a negative one), so its placement has to be something that will prevent ZY from encroaching too far into our territory. 3rd city earlier slows the sling but allows city 3 time to produce worker/settler/defense.
I think the 3 city goal is OK because you can fit settler in while waiting for PH and there's nothing else to build. Note, we will probably hurt ourselves if we REX without any plans for CS soon, since the maintenance will get hefty.
My worker sequence is (both workers always together)to road the copper before Pottery is available, then cottage the two closest river grasslands while city 2 grows to pop2 using corn. Then they mine the copper just as it can be worked and chop out settler or another worker (city 1 or 2 works) and whip library or settler (whips and chops mcuh used. I used overflow from whip or chop to get fast axeman, also, while regrowing a turn. I'd have to write the full sequence down... but I think that option 2 I had run before was a very strong position. I doubtr any AI are expanding faster than that on Emperor level, and I also doubt they will get Oracle before t100. I think fast rex without CS-sling would make sense if we had EXP trait, but here the CS is more important, imo. 3 cities at t90 is quite OK, and from there we can focus on Bur assisted prodcution/commerce for sustained REX. What we lose is some trees and maybe pop compared to other choices, but with units and cities (and tech) we are very strong.
I think we have plenty of room to our west (no contacts from there yet), so getting 6 cities will be simple even if we use a relaxed pace.
Note, in the official save you can still use the GOTO map-contouring and see that there is lots of bends and curves westward, so I'm pretty sure there has to be land.. can't say how good land, though.
Another question that pops up is will we OB with ZY at first opportunity, or wait a bit? Might be good to wait until further contacts... we won't get trade routes yet anyhow. We will also get -diplo for shared borders with him eventually. He would be a prime target to eliminate early, but first we need to know the big picture before we can think about that.
But yeah, I think testing some more to nail down the best sequences and settling site is a good idea.
Just looking at some progress graphs...
Fifth Element really sticks out... very high culture and very low power. My guess is that they went for an early religion (and got it) instead of BW like everyone else did. It will be interesting if their culture strategy can be done as fast as a UN victory (if any team can, its probably them).
Not that it matters for what we do, though.
I'll try to do some testing today or tomorrow... had a busy weekend and got little CIv time.
Fifth Element really sticks out... very high culture and very low power. My guess is that they went for an early religion (and got it) instead of BW like everyone else did. It will be interesting if their culture strategy can be done as fast as a UN victory (if any team can, its probably them).
Not that it matters for what we do, though.
I'll try to do some testing today or tomorrow... had a busy weekend and got little CIv time.
Indiansmoke
Deity
Busy weekend for me as well, will test this properly tonight or tommorow.
I am warming up to the idea of sharing both corns, there are many big early game advantages and the long term dissadvantages should not count that much as we will hopefully finish this game super fast.
Except from helping with the Oracle CS race and accelerating REX with 2 pop slaves, the second city using both corns can be very handy to get early great people with caste system. Capital stagnates working cottages, while second city can run 5 great people at size 7 or 3 at size 4!
There are many ways to exploit this, one is getting an artist and blocking tons of land, which might be usefull if we have ai's to the west and are not isolated by zara.
I am warming up to the idea of sharing both corns, there are many big early game advantages and the long term dissadvantages should not count that much as we will hopefully finish this game super fast.
Except from helping with the Oracle CS race and accelerating REX with 2 pop slaves, the second city using both corns can be very handy to get early great people with caste system. Capital stagnates working cottages, while second city can run 5 great people at size 7 or 3 at size 4!
There are many ways to exploit this, one is getting an artist and blocking tons of land, which might be usefull if we have ai's to the west and are not isolated by zara.
OK, I've been playing a bit with my option 2 (whip library in Bombay at first opportunity = size4 2-pop whip, need to wait 1-2 turns after writing until hammers get beyond the 3-pop whip zone).
Results: t96 CS-sling (1600BC).
2 cities and one settler. Dehli pop5, Bombay pop3.
Buildings: 2 libraries, 1 Oracle (and palace).
Units: 4 warriors, (axeman from Oracle chop overflow in 1 turn), and 2 fw's, and 1 settler.
We stand 5th in land area, 6th in pop, #1 in GNP (that's what this was all about, right?), and #7 in everything else.
I have a granary half built in the queue in Bombay, which was the build prior to Writing, but that could just as easily be an axeman if needed.
Worker sequence was 1) finish road so settler gets to 1NW of copper and can settle in same turn. 2) cottage north riverside grass. 3) mine bronze 4) cottage east riverside 5) cottage south riverside 6) various chops to library(s)?
Micro: Dehli always works max commerce tiles. This leaves 1 corn unused after the Dehli library (1pop) whip (which gives overflow to Oracle). Oracle built at size 5 using Math-powered chops (44 hammers each).
More Micro: Bombay whips library (2-pop) at first chance. Run max scie specialists (1 at pop2, 2 at pop3). Bombay takes corn from Dehli as soon as Bombay is settled and never gives it back. Bombay is working only corn while slow-building settler at pop3 with 2 sci. GSci arrives 4 turns before CoL, bulbs math, and then its 3 chops to the Oracle, with pre-chops Oracle on same turn as CoL.
Only hammers into the Oracle that are not chops are the 2 from settled plains hill.
Here's some pics. Any thoughts?
Results: t96 CS-sling (1600BC).
2 cities and one settler. Dehli pop5, Bombay pop3.
Buildings: 2 libraries, 1 Oracle (and palace).
Units: 4 warriors, (axeman from Oracle chop overflow in 1 turn), and 2 fw's, and 1 settler.
We stand 5th in land area, 6th in pop, #1 in GNP (that's what this was all about, right?), and #7 in everything else.
I have a granary half built in the queue in Bombay, which was the build prior to Writing, but that could just as easily be an axeman if needed.
Worker sequence was 1) finish road so settler gets to 1NW of copper and can settle in same turn. 2) cottage north riverside grass. 3) mine bronze 4) cottage east riverside 5) cottage south riverside 6) various chops to library(s)?
Micro: Dehli always works max commerce tiles. This leaves 1 corn unused after the Dehli library (1pop) whip (which gives overflow to Oracle). Oracle built at size 5 using Math-powered chops (44 hammers each).
More Micro: Bombay whips library (2-pop) at first chance. Run max scie specialists (1 at pop2, 2 at pop3). Bombay takes corn from Dehli as soon as Bombay is settled and never gives it back. Bombay is working only corn while slow-building settler at pop3 with 2 sci. GSci arrives 4 turns before CoL, bulbs math, and then its 3 chops to the Oracle, with pre-chops Oracle on same turn as CoL.
Only hammers into the Oracle that are not chops are the 2 from settled plains hill.
Here's some pics. Any thoughts?
Spoiler :
We (kcd and Indiansmoke) have focused their testing on fast CS with Oracle.
What are our other options?
We want to build the Oracle because we think the fastest team will also do so. How much REX are we missing with this path?
What if we built it sooner, put it N as a blocking city and took Code of Laws? The culture of the Oracle and Confu Holy City might be enough to block Zara from expanding west.
How many cities could we have at t100?
It looks like we have enough land to our west. And the CS sling is worth letting ZY get a city to our north.
Do we need to consider Other Options? Or did we already make the decision (strategy) and are just optimizing the implementation (tactics)?
What are our other options?
We want to build the Oracle because we think the fastest team will also do so. How much REX are we missing with this path?
What if we built it sooner, put it N as a blocking city and took Code of Laws? The culture of the Oracle and Confu Holy City might be enough to block Zara from expanding west.
How many cities could we have at t100?
It looks like we have enough land to our west. And the CS sling is worth letting ZY get a city to our north.
Do we need to consider Other Options? Or did we already make the decision (strategy) and are just optimizing the implementation (tactics)?
No decision has been made. "We" should probably probably test a real rapid expansion to compare. "We" is a funny word, because whenever my wife uses it to describe something that "we need to be do", she actually means "you".
The main unpredictabiilty with REX testing is that it will end up using tiles outside the "known" area, and the neighborhood has different actors. What should be the target number of cities by turn 100? We can surely acheive a LOT of cities, but our economy will not be able to handle it for very long, I think. Good to test though, because after we play 3 turns we might find out our CS-sling plan is unworkable anyhow.
Note... getting Confu would allow conversion of ZY and common religion +diplo. But..Maybe we should just start planning for him to be an enemy, given his proximity. Anyhow, it would be VERY unlikely we fail to get Confu on our way to CS-sling. In fact, the ONLY way I've ever been beaten to CoL while going for a sling is if someone builds the Oracle VERY early (say 2200BC) and takes CoL. That happens and we are hurt... but if it happens to everyone due to map-maker manipulation, it hurts everyone the same (except 5th element who is trying to give Classical_Hero a golden opportunity to say "I told you so" at the end of this).
I think its not too late to go to a culture-game if we wanted. I still think diplo game is faster, but diplo game relies more on the AI and the map than culture game does. So we should be open to throwing out our strategy if it looks wrong later.
As for the CS-sling, some comments:
Pro: Once in Bur with the cottaged capitol (and silver), we can sustain a much higher REX rate, and by 1AD have a much larger empire than otherwise... unless of course we get boxed in.
Pro: Diplo win requires good relations, which means giving in to demands for techs and other stuff, gifting techs and other stuff... etc. You get the picture... it requires a substantial and comfortable tech lead which we get by tech trading and by beating AI to every desirable trade-bait tech.
Con: Getting city #3 settled is a lot slower. Getting city#4 settled is a little slower, too.
Pro: I'd guess we can get 5 cities about as fast with the sling as without it, but in a much better economic situation.
So the question becomes: what do you feel about our prospects of getting a decent-sized empire (6 cities minimum, 7-9 good, for diplo voting more is better) just by settling? Or rather...is there enough unoccupied land that we can safely put off our expansion until after the sling? I don't know, but in my experience this usually isn't a problem on Emperor level, unless playing against more than the standard number of opponents for the map. In the worst case, we can always expand by "other means" (stop thinking beyond the sword, and start thinking about the axe
). I think by the time we know whether the REX is better than the CS-sling or not, we will be able to better assess the risks/benefits of using one of our 2 free DOW's. 
BTW: the sooner our borders start inhibitting ZY's expansion, the sooner he's going to get p-o'd at us for that. If we want him to start a war with us, no problem. If we don't, then we should be careful. Closest neighbors usually make for hard targets to get their votes, so not sure whether converting him to confu is wise or not.
I've tested a REX plan, though it is a "responsible" expansion rather than ASAP REX. That means that my number of citys does not exceed my number of workers, and that every city has at least one garrison unit. Also I stipulated that I would build the Oracle by about turn 100, without trying for CS-sling, take CoL.
My results suck.
(a) I get 4 cities and one settler by t104 and the Oracle; 3 workers, 1 axe, 4 warriors.
(b) I get 3 cities and one settler by t102 and the Oracle, a monument, 4 workers 5 warriors and an axe; plus a granary and a library almost complete.
Either way its a lot of 30-hammer trees that are gone, and a fair bit of 2-pop whips cracked.
Note, I settle Bombay on the marked hill, which slows things down a little. Could go faster settling the 1NW of copper, but if the goal is to gain territory the hill is better.
Techwise, I get animal husbandry instead of CS (not a good trade), everything else the same. I lose about 2gpt at 60-70% research.
These could surely be optimized, as I intentionally did not do much in city 3 (and 4) because I don't know where we might want to put those in the real game.
But basically I think the gain is 1-2 cities by giving up CS. But the CS sling would let us catch up 1 city by the t102-104 time anyhow, so it isn't even that much you get by passing up CS. I get the impression that if we pass up the CS-sling in favor of territory and cities, then forgetting about the Oracle completely is the way to go.
It will be a long time to acheive the same research rate, though. And in a UN race the early research rate is key to fast victory.
Try it yourselves and see if you draw the same conclusions.
My results suck.
(a) I get 4 cities and one settler by t104 and the Oracle; 3 workers, 1 axe, 4 warriors.
(b) I get 3 cities and one settler by t102 and the Oracle, a monument, 4 workers 5 warriors and an axe; plus a granary and a library almost complete.
Either way its a lot of 30-hammer trees that are gone, and a fair bit of 2-pop whips cracked.
Note, I settle Bombay on the marked hill, which slows things down a little. Could go faster settling the 1NW of copper, but if the goal is to gain territory the hill is better.
Techwise, I get animal husbandry instead of CS (not a good trade), everything else the same. I lose about 2gpt at 60-70% research.
These could surely be optimized, as I intentionally did not do much in city 3 (and 4) because I don't know where we might want to put those in the real game.
But basically I think the gain is 1-2 cities by giving up CS. But the CS sling would let us catch up 1 city by the t102-104 time anyhow, so it isn't even that much you get by passing up CS. I get the impression that if we pass up the CS-sling in favor of territory and cities, then forgetting about the Oracle completely is the way to go.
It will be a long time to acheive the same research rate, though. And in a UN race the early research rate is key to fast victory.
Try it yourselves and see if you draw the same conclusions.
Indiansmoke
Deity
Sorry for taking so long to get to this, work has been mad!
Regarding thoughts to abandon CS race, I think this statement sums it up for me
After some testing I think slaving te library is not as efficient so here is the plan I like:
second city goes to 1w of copper to share both corns
Capital starts worker and uses both corns until size 6.
Both workers road on copper, chop plains tile for worker and then start cottaging 1N of capital, then cottage 1S then 1SW and then 1W, then improve copper and then chop libraries first second city and then in capital.
Second city makes settler after library and runs 2 scientists, capital stays all cottages.
RESULT : We have another settler turn 93 and Oracle CS turn 94 and capital size 6 with 4 hamlets.
Key is to get math first and then chop last3 forests in capital for Oracle.
If you are OK with this I can make PPP for first 15-20 turns of plan.
Regarding thoughts to abandon CS race, I think this statement sums it up for me
After some testing I think slaving te library is not as efficient so here is the plan I like:
second city goes to 1w of copper to share both corns
Capital starts worker and uses both corns until size 6.
Both workers road on copper, chop plains tile for worker and then start cottaging 1N of capital, then cottage 1S then 1SW and then 1W, then improve copper and then chop libraries first second city and then in capital.
Second city makes settler after library and runs 2 scientists, capital stays all cottages.
RESULT : We have another settler turn 93 and Oracle CS turn 94 and capital size 6 with 4 hamlets.
Key is to get math first and then chop last3 forests in capital for Oracle.
If you are OK with this I can make PPP for first 15-20 turns of plan.
Done with finals, but Indiansmoke should definitely execute the next turn set. I think Oracle CS is the way to go here if we can pull it off. There should be plans if Oracle is gone 2000BC, though.
btw, it is annoying to not be able to adjust beaker or hammer counts in WB. I will start working on updating the testmap to the latest known tile information and maybe some later dotmaps to block Zara off.
Zara alone with us? Smells like a trap to me. I don't want to use one of our DOW's without knowing where those needed resources are! We should plan on getting a coastal city sooner or later to get circumnavigation and to meet our other "friends".
btw, it is annoying to not be able to adjust beaker or hammer counts in WB. I will start working on updating the testmap to the latest known tile information and maybe some later dotmaps to block Zara off.
Zara alone with us? Smells like a trap to me. I don't want to use one of our DOW's without knowing where those needed resources are! We should plan on getting a coastal city sooner or later to get circumnavigation and to meet our other "friends".
Agree with above (kcd, I, narri).
Posted in part to up post count and fill time waiting for Indiansmoke. Question asked and answered. Like response and test from kcd (conclude: focus on REX or Oracle, not both). And agree with conclusion to go Oracle CS sling. Like I's plan.
Good plan Indiansmoke. I don't like not using one of corns, so sharing both is good. Delay copper because growth > production?
I think we have plenty of space west for later expansion (based entirely on wishful thinking).
Agree with creating PPP for Oracle CS plan.
Agree, NO DOWs until we know where All required resources are.
Posted in part to up post count and fill time waiting for Indiansmoke.
Question asked and answered. Like response and test from kcd (conclude: focus on REX or Oracle, not both). And agree with conclusion to go Oracle CS sling. Like I's plan. Good plan Indiansmoke. I don't like not using one of corns, so sharing both is good. Delay copper because growth > production?
I think we have plenty of space west for later expansion (based entirely on wishful thinking).
Spoiler :
Agree, NO DOWs until we know where All required resources are.
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