SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

Fluroscent · Sep 20, 2010

BLUB said:
Take this, Fluro:
- Oracle in StPete turn 81 (completed, not IBT) with BW in
- Academy in Moscow turn 79
- 3 workers
- barracks in Moscow
- 1 warrior, 1 chariot, 1 axe, 1 spear (it should have been a warrior)
- 23 g. from SH failure. BTW, it was the first time i see it completed before the Oracle and it was the first time i try to build it... strange. It was also the first time i see a foreign unit near our borders, a Chinese WB.
- all the tiles in Moscow BFC (but one) scrubbed, roaded and improved, both nets operational
- 3 tiles in StPete BFC same
- 1 road N and 1 S to connect possible cities
- 1 possible city site (not in this map, just to simulate for the real one) scrubbed
- no chops

So, apart from you having horses and copper in your test save (I don't..), which surely will help production, the result looks impressive. But you could also tell what the build order was (roughly), otherwise it is hard to compare/improve (why not ?

).

You could also post your T79 status for comparison. It is not a competition on best MM, but rather some very useful testing that will ultimately let us work with much more knowledge.

BLUB said:
But there's an hole in your plan, IMO: to have full benefit from Bureau, Moscow has to work the gold. So, while i mostly agree with you, it's better to run specialists *before* CS, not after. But trying to work the gold at the same time.

Well, as I said, at size 7, we can work both gold and two scientists, so the bureau bonus will be lost only on the 2 commerce or 2 hammers from cow/clam and whatever other tile not worked.

beestar · Sep 20, 2010

Good luck Unclethrill!

On scrubbing fallout: AlanH just posted that the AI may be capable of scrubbing fallout without knowing Ecology. This was in a Deity teamgame from a while ago - has anyone seen this in their test games?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9629679

Fluroscent · Sep 20, 2010

Something interesting has been posted in the maintenance thread. It seems the AI is capable of cleaning up fallout without having ecology. And the way AlanH stated it, it sounds like the AI does indeed not have ecology.

Edit: Xpost with beestar

BLubmuz · Sep 20, 2010

Fluroscent said:
So, apart from you having horses and copper in your test save (I don't..), which surely will help production, the result looks impressive. But you could also tell what the build order was (roughly), otherwise it is hard to compare/improve (why not ?).

You could also post your T79 status for comparison. It is not a competition on best MM, but rather some very useful testing that will ultimately let us work with much more knowledge.

Well, as I said, at size 7, we can work both gold and two scientists, so the bureau bonus will be lost only on the 2 commerce or 2 hammers from cow/clam and whatever other tile not worked.

Well, a bit of sane intra-team competition can help to improve our skills. And our result

But i was just jocking.

Sure, i will give more details once UT will show us if i placed correctly at least the horses. Copper is not a big deal for the test.

On another note, Moscow can't grow 7 due to the happy cap. I know that at 7 it can work both gold and feed 2 specialists, but we need to find another happy resource or build a temple to arrive there.
For now, this can be a good exercise in perfecting some move/build.
I have my autolog and i remember the most important moves (the "creative" ones).
Tomorrow i will report extensively.

Fluroscent said:
Something interesting has been posted in the maintenance thread. It seems the AI is capable of cleaning up fallout without having ecology. And the way AlanH stated it, it sounds like the AI does indeed not have ecology.

Edit: Xpost with beestar

Nice thread that one, epic battles.
Well, i started affirming the AIs have Eco, after some thinking and analysis i think they don't.
I can't see how they can cheat as described in that thread, but for now i must trust the players. Better for us. Less work to do, more workers to capture.

Another thought.
Provided we can actually build SH, it will have a greater impact in this game: it's basically an AW game, in the spirit of his creator (kill 'em, kill 'em all!) so, sooner or later the WW will start strike.
How is this related with SH?
You need 3 monuments to build the SoZ, a wonder i never build, usually.
But having it on our hands and not in the ones of the most far AI can surely help.

Just to bring this point to your attention.

unclethrill · Sep 20, 2010

All went as planned.

Most important highlight are the horses under Moscow. Here is the SAVE

Screenies in next post!

Here are the rest of the highlights:

Turn 1
Settled Moscow
Started Worker
Selected AH
Assigned EP to Ghandi

Turn 3

Mao adopts State Property
Roosevelt adopts Representation
DeGaulle adopts Nationhood

Turn 4

Borders pop

Turn 5

DG is (un)willing to sign peace treaty

Turn 6

Ghandi is (un)willing to give peace or trade Mysticism or Archery

Turn 8

Mao, Stalin, Church all (un)willing to sign peace treaty

Turn 9

Buddhism Founded

Turn 10

Ghandi adopts Buddhism
Roos (un)willing to give peace

Turn 14

Finished AH
Popped Horses under Moscow
Selected Fishing

5 Turns left on Worker
6 turn to Fishing

Exited and uploaded

Session Log - all the kaboom!

Spoiler :

Autolog

Spoiler :

unclethrill · Sep 20, 2010

Here are the demographic screenshots requested.

unclethrill · Sep 20, 2010

Here are all the pretty pictures.

BLubmuz · Sep 20, 2010

The 3 AIs revolts give us the knowledge of how to assign the techs.
Churchill's and Stalin's tech is unknown. I will try any fitting with this scenario and with the score, right or wrong.

Horses under Moscow? You said there can be a resource, and i agreed.

Our crystal ball seems to work, from time to time.

2H+1G for 3F (4 with LH). But i think they will be compensated by the early worker, otherwise impossible.

I was so sure i've placed them in my test (to your consolation, Fluorescent

).
I think the worker will gain 1-2 turns, so we probably must start a warrior before Fishing is in. It's still 1-2 worker turns gained.

Good opening, UT. An horse gambit.
Now, comments on the roster and on the proposed schedule, please!!!!!

pnp_dredd · Sep 20, 2010

cheers for the screenies.

sweet, horses where we expected them. We're already ahead of the teams who teched fishing first!

Looking at the demographics, it doesn't look like the AI have many good starting tiles.
On turn 1 the average number of AI hammers is just 1 (from city tile), whereas we can work a grassland forest for 1 extra. Food is similar: at least one AI has no food tiles (in the initial 9 tiles) and thus just has the 2 food from the capital.
Things have changes slightly by turn 14, presumably due to border pops and better tiles in the BFC. All of the AI have at least a 3-food/2-commerce tile to work, although the hammers are still low. Does this mean that the AIs are unlikely to have many forests?
One AI has lots and lots of food, with a 21,000 population already (size 3?). All the rest are still only at 7000 (size 2?).
The number of soldiers has fallen for all AIs? Is this because we have access to horses?

At a guess, all the AIs are slow-building an Archer while most are working an oasis or riverside grain. It will be ages before they spit out a worker, and longer before they have any decent production capacity.

In any case, a late Oracle looks pretty safe, and there's nothing yet to suggest that we need that warrior really early. The cow to the West looks tasty. Stealing an early worker will completely cripple an AI (although we would need a 2-move unit and a bit of luck).

Presumably most of the early AI GNP is made up of trade routes?

Roster:
I'm away on business from 1-18 October, so please move me to later on.

pnp_dredd · Sep 20, 2010

For reference, stolen from the WD SGOTM 10 thread, the leader traits:

Gandhi

Spoiler :

Roosevelt

Spoiler :

Churchill

Spoiler :

Mao

Spoiler :

De Gaulle

Spoiler :

Stalin

Spoiler :

beestar · Sep 21, 2010

Interesting turnset, UT!

It seems half of the AIs were given the techs for their favourite civic:
- Why not Gandhi, Churchill, and Stalin? I assume this so that Mao and Stalin don't become buddies, and Churchill and De Gaulle don't become buddies.
- Some valuable techs are out there: Nationalism, Constitution, and State Property. Once we have the prereqs, we could steal them, or demand them in peace talks.
- This also means that some valuable wonders may be built early: Taj Mahal, Kremlin, etc.

If we successfully war on Gandhi, I wonder if we could grab Alphabet in a peace treaty. We might need quite some war success to counterbalance the 14 warriors we lost to his Modern Armor.

Weird to see the AI fluctuate from Annoyed to Furious to back again with us. Also, the autolog seems to imply that a lot of the AIs have now met each other. Is this right?

Having horses means we can send out a Chariot to scout once we have Wheel. We might even be able to pick up a worker or two if we can swoop in from 2 tiles away.

Questions to consider:
- Is it worth investing the hammers in Great Wall now, to get the GSpy now, that will steal Constitution later? Without a GSpy I don't think we can generate enough EPs efficiently to steal a tech. But with a GSpy, it might be enough, and a free tech is worth a lot. Think of it as 150 hammers to get a very early Liberalism (whose effects are delayed for 3000 years

)
- What will it take to get peace with AIs with this much war success?
- If we give the AIs these techs in WB, how likely are they to waste their early hammers on trying to build Taj Mahal and Kremlin?
- Do AIs really have the ability to clear fallout without Ecology?

For roster/turnset, I'm personally happy for UT to continue.

unclethrill · Sep 21, 2010

beestar said:
Interesting turnset, UT!

Weird to see the AI fluctuate from Annoyed to Furious to back again with us. Also, the autolog seems to imply that a lot of the AIs have now met each other. Is this right?

As of T14, they have no contact with each other according to the diplo screen.

Having horses means we can send out a Chariot to scout once we have Wheel. We might even be able to pick up a worker or two if we can swoop in from 2 tiles away.

IIRC, even a 2 movement unit is limited to one MP in fallout so if the whole map looks like the visible portion then a chariot will move as fast as a warrior. On the flipside, if there is significantly less fallout beyond our borders or if there are strategic fallout free squares, a chariot can be really useful (more so than a warrior). It gets a benefit against axeman and is stronger against archers than a warrior.

Questions to consider:
- Is it worth investing the hammers in Great Wall now, to get the GSpy now, that will steal Constitution later? Without a GSpy I don't think we can generate enough EPs efficiently to steal a tech. But with a GSpy, it might be enough, and a free tech is worth a lot. Think of it as 150 hammers to get a very early Liberalism (whose effects are delayed for 3000 years )

I think those hammers would be better spent somewhere else but we would need to test to be sure. I think a third city earlier would be a bigger benefit than polluting our GP pool with a spy for the rest of the game.

- What will it take to get peace with AIs with this much war success?

Several techs/expensive techs/lots of war success. One problem with early war is that we can't kill of an AI unless it is Stalin and if we cripple them another AI may kill them off and there is the possibility that we would have violated the tenet that we do everything possible to keep all AI alive.

- If we give the AIs these techs in WB, how likely are they to waste their early hammers on trying to build Taj Mahal and Kremlin?

Again only through testing will we know for sure but in SGOTM10 with the Renaissance (IIRC) start, all the AI targeted early wonders after initial unit building.

- Do AIs really have the ability to clear fallout without Ecology?

Either way, it will be a benefit and a hindrance. If they can then we get free cleanup but then we lose the advantage of being able to clean up. If not, it could be a long drawn-out mid to late game but we will be able to be so much more advanced that they will all beg to be vassals.

For roster/turnset, I'm personally happy for UT to continue.

I'm okay with this. I can push enter 7 more times and take us to fishing. I will need to know what the team wants to do with the worker for 2 turns though.

beestar · Sep 21, 2010

As of T14, they have no contact with each other according to the diplo screen.

Weird, the autolog says that their attitudes toward the other AIs is changing. Perhaps the game keeps track of diplo relations even before AIs meet each other?

If not, it could be a long drawn-out mid to late game but we will be able to be so much more advanced that they will all beg to be vassals.

Sucks for them that vassals are forbidden in this game

Fluroscent · Sep 21, 2010

Great, our AH first pays off already. That we won't have fishing right when we finish the worker is just a luxury problem, but we need to decide on what to put that 1T of hammers into. Could be either worker or warrior.

It is not actually their favourite civics as a general theme, since Roosevelt has mercantilism as a favourite, but he got constitution.

One thing, which was predictable, is that the techs given do not open up any new techs, and they don't unlock any advanced units.
DeGaulle can draft warriors, and axes? when he hooks copper, but that is the extent of military implications. Two of them have EP generating buildings available, but I don't think they will build them any time soon.

BLubmuz, if you update the save, please post it so we can play the same testsave. And by the way, we get confucianism, so Moscow can indeed be size 7

About wonders suggested.

Stonehenge: Almost worthless given that we are CRE, and that we will have a religion too. unlikely to be completed in time too if built in the same city as Oracle for a prophet. As for SoZ, we can surely build three monuments quickly if we want to later, the early hammers thing here.. Failure gold is just much more useful at this point, especially with the monster multipliers we are racking up in Moscow.

GWall: Popping a GSpy looks impractical, since we would have to generate all the EP with just the 2EP from wall, and it surely is not worth sacrificing academy for. If we build an assortment of wonders in Moscow, judging that we don't mind terribly if our 2nd GP is a GPro/GM/GS, then if we somehow can find time for the wall, then a GSpy at some low chance is possible.
The known techs the AI possess are so late in the game, that I don't think we can afford to sacrifice early development to that end. Later on, we might see an opportunity to steal/trade/extort something.

Extorting alphabet:
Generally speaking, you need a heck of a lot of war success to be able to get techs for peace. Thus it would seem likely that we find ourselves in a situation where we could capture a couple of cities, and then actually pay the AI for peace.. Extorting Alphabet seems very unlikely before we would research it ourselves, even if Gandhi is our neighbour.

Fluroscent · Sep 21, 2010

unclethrill said:
I'm okay with this. I can push enter 7 more times and take us to fishing. I will need to know what the team wants to do with the worker for 2 turns though.

You could just press enter until the worker is done then instead. We still could change our mind on what the next build/tech is.

unclethrill said:
Again only through testing will we know for sure but in SGOTM10 with the Renaissance (IIRC) start, all the AI targeted early wonders after initial unit building.

But IIRC, they only did so because almost everyone popped a GE. I don't think we can expect to get those wonders ourselves though

Fluroscent · Sep 21, 2010

BLubmuz said:
Now, comments on the roster and on the proposed schedule, please!!!!!

I think we don't need a rigid plan like that, since sometimes we can do sets faster, and sometimes we want a bit more time. And especially early on, we might want to have the turnsets end at points that make sense rather than a fixed number of turns.
As for the roster, I wouldn't mind having an earlier set having playtested a lot.

unclethrill · Sep 21, 2010

I like the idea of bringing the game forward to the completion of the worker. Those are pretty useless turns so there is really no reason to waste someone elses TS turns on that. We would still be 1 or 2 turns out from fishing and Cas can then be on the hook for choosing the next build item.

If El Capitan gives me the go ahead, I'll finish it to the worker tonight. (in between Civ V games :woohoo:

)

BLubmuz · Sep 21, 2010

Fluroscent said:
I think we don't need a rigid plan like that, since sometimes we can do sets faster, and sometimes we want a bit more time. And especially early on, we might want to have the turnsets end at points that make sense rather than a fixed number of turns.
As for the roster, I wouldn't mind having an earlier set having playtested a lot.

Please don't take my schedule as a rigid plan!
It's just a schedule to see how we can use our time at best and to avoid bad surprises, given the short time we have for this game.
Right when this thread opened, me and Beestar agreed on 10 turns/TS, but my schedule showed this is NOT a viable option, so i came with another.

It's of course flexible and should be seen as a draft path to follow but also to vary.
As the first TS demonstrates (see below)

unclethrill said:
I like the idea of bringing the game forward to the completion of the worker. Those are pretty useless turns so there is really no reason to waste someone elses TS turns on that. We would still be 1 or 2 turns out from fishing and Cas can then be on the hook for choosing the next build item.

If El Capitan gives me the go ahead, I'll finish it to the worker tonight. (in between Civ V games )

Sure, go ahead until you see the worker pop, then stop.

My tests showed me that the spare turn on the worker must be used for a warrior, to let the city start grow.
Switch to WB right after Fishing is on line and verify that the citizen continue work the forest. The stupid city governor moves to the unimproved seafood. But this is matter for TS 02.

Civ5, i'm curious. Here it will arrive the 24th and probably i'll wait some more day to buy it.
Surely i'll play it, but it will be a so different game that i will continue play CIV for years, i think.
I discovered few weeks ago Final Frontier, quickly found FFPlus and Star Trek. Great mods, you play a different game under many aspects, the Solar Systems are a great variant of the usual terrain.

BLubmuz · Sep 21, 2010

It's strange to see relations changes in the Autolog and see the AIs have not yet met.
I don't think the official game can differ too much from my test, but i can see who met who in the test.

21000 pop is a size 3 city. I verified that all the AI start with 1000 pop (size 1).
Thus i think 1 AI have a net or a farm WBuilt.

AIs techs. The 3 civics changes fit perfectly with the related techs and the subsequent score.
I really don't know what techs give to Churchill and Stalin, so i gave them:
- Churchill = Biology
- Stalin = Ecology
just because they fit better than other with this scenario and - mainly - with the score.

BTW we don't need Biology to launch: it's needed for Ecology, but since we start with it, we can skip it. I'm not saying we have to, just that we can. And i'm not even sure.
For now, let's discover the wheel. Do you think we can move faster with it? Can it be round perhaps?
ahh i met one of our scholars and he told me we can need worms to take the fishes... anyone volunteers?

No UT, you're too big... we need smaller ones to take good fishes.

orb · Sep 21, 2010

Nice turn set, UT please continue with your good fortune.

I don't have anything to add to the discussions right now, except to say that I am busy until 2nd week in Oct so put me toasted the end of the roster. I'm happy with flexible turn set length if it suits the situation in the game.

SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

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