Rostov: Not sure a revolution is worth it, quite a big hit it is. Alternatively, we tech nationalism and hit a golden age for revolting, but I'd prefer that to be later, when we have captured MoM from Churchill.
I agree that it's not worth revolting. We should try to finish IW (+ NE?) as quickly as possible through a combination of working workshops/farms/whipping/chopping. It may well be worth working farms first off to boost the population, and only whipping to complete NE?
Astro is good for trade routes to Gandhi, and Privateers/Frigates, plus an Observatory in Moscow where most of our science is being generated. We will be able to at least part-bulb Astro.
I like the idea of trying to trade/extort for Nationalism and Constitution, if Gandhi gets going on that path. Similarly, getting Banking then monitoring Gandhi's progress toward Economics while we work on other things sounds fine. However, note that the Great Merchant is for Sushi so we don't have to run merchant specialists later! After our GE from Rostov, we run great scientists in Moscow and bulb toward SciMeth / Physics.
So, broadly I propose:
- Optics
- trade Guilds
- Banking (trade or tech)
- (Econ whenever Gandhi threatens to get it)
- Astro (part-bulb)
- production path (RP, Steam Power, Railroad) and corps path (Nationalism, Constitution, Corporation), opportunistically picking up Nat/Const from AI if possible
Workboats are in progress, yes.
Agree for chopping forests into Ironworks. I'll put down some grassland workshops (1F3H with Guilds and Chemistry, no Caste System, as good as a baseline grassland hill mine). Isn't there a penalty for whipping a National Wonder?
Strongly disagree on keeping the merchant for sushi. We can easily switch Rostov (or wherever we build NEpic) to merchants after popping the GE. In fact, we probably want to pop GM's either way, as they are the most profitable, with trade missions generally being better than GS bulbs due to multipliers. Rather get the value of the trade mission to get our priority techs now. Also, the merchants are better specialists outside Moscow for the same reason.
Sushi is NOT a priority goal. I think it can wait till after industrialism at least, plenty of time to pick up an additional GM.
Astro:
Trade routes to Gandhi will happen when we take the Chinese city on the west coast anyway. Privateers+frigates don't seem too useful yet. Observatory is nice, but will surely not make up for the cost of astro before we can reach our mining techs.
So I stand by that astro will slow down our mining path, which is our top priority besides the war.
Now, if we pop a GS, I guess we can part bulb it and finish it, but that would be the decider for me.
Definitely trade for banking, no reason not to (use gunpowder?)
Agree for chopping forests into Ironworks. I'll put down some grassland workshops (1F3H with Guilds and Chemistry, no Caste System, as good as a baseline grassland hill mine). Isn't there a penalty for whipping a National Wonder?
The same as WWonders. No point in sacrifice population when we need it to run Engs.
I'm not too sure about Sushi it comes late and with Ecology in the pocket from the beginning Medicine is a tech detour. And not so sure about Trade Missions. With the MoM GAges are far better. Chur is our next target and if we have enough troops we can open a second front. London is not far from former "France" after we have the Chinese cities there. Better attack than keep a good number of troops only to watch our back - or side, or axx.
Surely it is worth sending the econ GM on a trade misson this early. But it might be true that subsequent GM's should be used for golden ages, barring the sushi one. I also don't think we should skip sushi altogether, with the corporation preparations being needed anyway for mining, and the great payoff we can get on low food sites, it is bound to be worthwhile.
Whipping IW - YES. It is double cost, but that hardly matters. Whip as soon as possible when we can do so and still run the engineers afterwards.
Yes, whipping at the end is good, as long as it leaves us enough pop for engineers afterward. Working farms instead of workshops, for a later half-efficiency whip, probably won't be very efficient though.
I've become convinced by the merchant specialists argument - i.e. run merchant specialists after engineers (with maybe one more scientist from Moscow in between). We want the ancillary cities to produce gold rather than beakers, to funnel it through Moscow. This means Rostov, our NE/Ironworks city, also runs merchant specialists and maybe should build market/grocer/bank.
Keep in mind we will need 6 Banks in order build Wall Street in St. Petes, otherwise corps are too expensive.
We're definitely getting at least 1 more GS from Moscow before we can pop out the GE from Rostov, maybe 2, so let's pick up the part-bulbed Astro along the way.
Started with Steel from Liberalism. Teched Optics, traded for Guilds and Banking, completed Replaceable Parts. Gandhi won Islam and is now going for Philo, not Econ. Our tech rate is powerful but we are 3 turns away from no longer being able to run 100% science, so it's time to trigger the Economics GM.
In 10 turns we've built a bunch of musketmen (too many - sorry, should have been making Cannons in more cities), and a few cannons.
We've hooked up Whales and Dye. Moai Statues is completed in Paris, Forbidden Palace in Orleans, and Ironworks is still 13 turns away in Rostov.
We settled 2 more island cities, and finally made contact with Stalin. He's sort of useless up there. Stalingrad has 7 tac nukes but he's not at all a threat - nor can he help us attack our rivals.
Spoiler:
We got the circumnavigation bonus thanks to Gandhi's map.
----------- turnset --------------
T191, 1310AD: Whip Forge in Paris
T192, 1320AD:
T193, 1330AD: Mine destroyed by infiltrators! Traded for Guilds and 110 gp and world map (and +1 trade relations) Ran 0% to avoid overshoot. Our new map from Gandhi proved the world is round.
T194: 1340AD. Traded Gunpowder to Gandhi for Banking, 30 gp, Drama, World map. Put some beakers into Econ.
T195: 1350AD. Second turn into Econ, just in case Gandhi wants to go for it.
T196: 1360AD. Gandhi gets Divine Right and we have one turn where we can't see Gandhi's tech. Mao Zedong has 370 gold all of a sudden, so we nab it for Music. No positive diplo from Mao, but no negative diplo from Gandhi either. Improve the Whales. Roosy and Church are WHEOOHRN, watch out.
T197: 1370AD. Finish Moai in Paris. Gandhi heading toward Philo, not Econ. Met Stalin. Stalingrad has grenadier, 4 archers, 3 galleys ... and 7 tac nukes. No need to worry about ICBMs. We could probably conquer Stalin despite his tac nukes with an amphibious attack. (Does the AI nuke its own lands? Maybe his tac nukes won't attack a stack next to Stalingrad).
T198: 358 failgold from finishing Moai in Paris. Stalin met Roosy and Gandhi, and immediately hated them because they traded with his worst enemy - us - before he even met them. (This is the thing TMIT is always ranting about). This makes Roosy, not us, Stalin's new worst enemy. Now Stalin is WHEOOHRN, probably against Roosy. This lets us Open Borders with Stalin.
Founded Krasnoyarsk on the big island. Need 2 border pops to claim the metals.
T199: 1390AD. Don't remember exactly when, but Mao's spies have now sabotaged two towns (bringing them back down to villages or whatever). He hates us but fears engaging directly with us!
T200: 1400AD. RP comes in. Working on Steam Power now but probably should switch to Economics (1 turn away). Our new cities have lots of food and are growing quickly - continue to whip infrastructure.
Detailed turnset log:
Spoiler:
Turn 191, 1310 AD: You have discovered Steel!
Turn 191, 1310 AD: You have discovered Optics!
Turn 191, 1310 AD: You have trained a Musketman in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Musketman.
Turn 191, 1310 AD: You have trained a Musketman in Cote d'Ivoire. Work has now begun on a Cannon.
Turn 192, 1320 AD: Confucianism has spread in Orenburg.
Turn 192, 1320 AD: You have trained a Worker in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Caravel.
Turn 192, 1320 AD: Roosevelt adopts Mercantilism!
Turn 192, 1320 AD: Mani (Great Prophet) has been born in Bombay (Gandhi)!
Turn 193, 1330 AD: You have discovered Guilds!
Turn 193, 1330 AD: You have trained a Caravel in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.
Turn 193, 1330 AD: You have constructed a Granary in Orenburg. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 193, 1330 AD: William T. G. Morton (Great Engineer) has been born in Hangzhou (Mao Zedong)!
Turn 193, 1330 AD: Your maps have proven that the world is round! Your ships receive a +1 Movement bonus.
Turn 194, 1340 AD: You have discovered Banking!
Turn 194, 1340 AD: You have discovered Drama!
Turn 194, 1340 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Musketman.
Turn 194, 1340 AD: You have trained a Caravel in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Grocer.
Turn 194, 1340 AD: You have trained a Cannon in Cote d'Ivoire. Work has now begun on a Cannon.
Turn 194, 1340 AD: You have constructed a Granary in Smolensk. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 195, 1350 AD: Coco Chanel (Great Merchant) has been born in London (Churchill)!
Turn 195, 1350 AD: Ibn Muqlah (Great Artist) has been born in New York (Roosevelt)!
Turn 195, 1350 AD: Islam has been founded in Varanasi!
Turn 195, 1350 AD: Mao Zedong adopts Theocracy!
Turn 196, 1360 AD: You have constructed a Forge in Novgorod. Work has now begun on a Musketman.
Turn 196, 1360 AD: Georgy Zhukov (Great General) has been born in Beijing (Mao Zedong)!
Turn 196, 1360 AD: Mao Zedong has completed The Hagia Sophia!
Turn 197, 1370 AD: You have trained a Musketman in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Harbor.
Turn 197, 1370 AD: You have trained a Cannon in Cote d'Ivoire. Work has now begun on a Cannon.
Turn 197, 1370 AD: You have constructed a Forge in Rheims. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 197, 1370 AD: You have constructed Moai Statues in Paris. Work has now begun on a Musketman.
Turn 198, 1380 AD: Cote d'Ivoire can hurry Cannon for 3? with 29? overflow and +1? for 10 turns.
Turn 198, 1380 AD: Orleans will become unhealthy on the next turn.
Turn 198, 1380 AD: Rheims has grown to size 11.
Turn 198, 1380 AD: Paris can hurry Musketman for 4? with 28? overflow and +1? for 16 turns.
Turn 198, 1380 AD: Smolensk has grown to size 4.
Turn 198, 1380 AD: Orenburg has grown to size 4.
Turn 198, 1380 AD: Roosevelt has 100 gold available for trade.
Turn 198, 1380 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ? for Rostov.
Turn 198, 1380 AD: Orleans will grow to size 13 on the next turn.
Turn 198, 1380 AD: Moscow can no longer work on Moai Statues. The lost ? is converted into 216?!
Turn 198, 1380 AD: You have constructed Forbidden Palace in Orleans. Work has now begun on a Wealth.
Turn 198, 1380 AD: Rostov can no longer work on Moai Statues. The lost ? is converted into 122?!
Turn 198, 1380 AD: Yaroslavl' can no longer work on Moai Statues. The lost ? is converted into 20?!
Turn 198, 1380 AD: You have constructed a Library in Smolensk. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 198, 1380 AD: A Town was destroyed by enemy infiltrators!
Turn 198, 1380 AD: A Chinese Spy has been stumbled upon while operating near the Russian city of Orleans!
Turn 199, 1390 AD: Moscow can hurry Musketman for 1? with 28? overflow and +1? for 10 turns.
Turn 199, 1390 AD: Roosevelt is the worst enemy of Stalin the Despicable.
Turn 199, 1390 AD: The borders of Moscow are about to expand.
Turn 199, 1390 AD: Will Sign Open Borders: Stalin the Despicable
Turn 199, 1390 AD: Krasnoyarsk has been founded.
Turn 199, 1390 AD: Moscow will grow to size 18 on the next turn.
Turn 199, 1390 AD: Rostov will grow to size 14 on the next turn.
Turn 199, 1390 AD: Smolensk will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 199, 1390 AD: Orenburg will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 199, 1390 AD: You have discovered Replaceable Parts!
Turn 199, 1390 AD: The borders of Moscow have expanded!
Turn 199, 1390 AD: Confucianism has spread in Krasnoyarsk.
Turn 200, 1400 AD: Moscow has grown to size 18.
Turn 200, 1400 AD: Orleans can hurry Confucian Missionary for 1? with 22? overflow and +1? for 18 turns.
Turn 200, 1400 AD: Rostov has grown to size 14.
Turn 200, 1400 AD: Rheims can hurry Library for 1? with 30? overflow and +1? for 10 turns.
Turn 200, 1400 AD: Smolensk has grown to size 4.
Turn 200, 1400 AD: Orenburg has grown to size 5.
Turn 200, 1400 AD: Orenburg can hurry Forge for 2? with 9? overflow and +1? for 13 turns.
Turn 200, 1400 AD: Roosevelt has 150 gold available for trade.
Turn 200, 1400 AD: Khabarovsk has been founded.
Techs/Diplo:
Let's finish Economics, then Steam Power->Railroad. For optimization, 2 turns of 100%, then some turns of 0%, then hopefully a long stretch of 100% with trade mission money.
Interestingly, Roosevelt has Astronomy! This means we might get to trade for it rather than tech it. Also means we can expect him to settle on various islands.
Also, interestingly, Churchill has Steam Power! He does not have iron though, but we might expect ironclads when we get around to attacking him. He has a source of iron deep in icy terrain yet unsettled.
13 turns to next GP in Moscow, which will likely be a GS.
Gandhi is 4 turns from Philosophy, after which he can research Nationalism, Chemistry, Astronomy, Education, Replacable Parts.
Obviously, we can hope he goes for Natio/Astro.
Gandhi is in Mercantilism. Which means Astro is less appealing right now.
War Prep:
We will need some caravels to protect from pillaging. Let's see what we have for troops after the first part of the set, then we can determine how soon we can strike.
Builds:
I'd like to settle the last cottage city now. The closest site to Moscow. After that, We probably should not make any other (non-captured) cities cottage cities, instead focusing on farms/workshops. Also settling the other city (pigs/sugar/hills) seem ok. We seem to have enough workers around to support those cities.
I want to whip a bank in Moscow. It is overgrown and can afford to whip away a few pop. That is why I would do 100% for two turns, then 100% for a bit.
Prefer not to build cannons in cities with no barracks. Some cities can get barracks though.
Expect first round to be 12-13 turns so we see what GP we pop. Now will work on detailed build plans.
Build plans
Figured we have to plan the six banks now too.
Moscow:
Bank, whip next turn -> finish musket -> Settler -> Harbor -> Military.
StP:
Grocer-> Bank -> Courthouse
CI:
Cannons non stop. Switch from coast to workshop when available.
Novo:
Finish musket-> Bank. Poor production and no barracks, and lots of commerce to gain from a bank. Dump marble+silver to work more cottages.
Yaro:
Caravel -> Settler -> Bank. Grows into last cottage in 2 T, so can afford to stagnate. Good place to build a caravel to defend the upper seafood. Also good as one of six bank cities, being so far from the front and with good commerce.
Rostov:
Workshop over last forest. Whip when it leaves the city at size 7 or larger, then run max engineers and finish NEpic. Go barracks-military afterwards.
Rheims:
Finish Library-Barracks-Military. Eventually whip bank here.
Orleans:
Finish missionary -> Barracks -> Military. Also whip bank eventually.
Paris:
Barracks-> Military.
Smolensk:
Whip caravel, then resume standard build order
Lesser cities:
Standard build order - Granary -> Library/forge/courthouse, whipping when possible.
I generally don't do this, as it means it risks being chosen as the defender, which is unacceptable at any odds. We are making huge mistakes if we rely on our GG medic to fight any battles.
There's the only Treb in the stack, upgrade it for 80g.
I think it will depend on what city it is. That's why the slashes. Far away cities (islands) should get CH. Close production cities forge. Close commerce cities library.
Can't see it start within the first part. We need more cannons, and those cannons need to travel down to the front too.
Getting railroads might be a very powerful bonus on it's own, if we can get it fast enough.
I generally don't do this, as it means it risks being chosen as the defender, which is unacceptable at any odds. We are making huge mistakes if we rely on our GG medic to fight any battles.
What's with these random techs? I assume that they were gifted these techs by the mapmaker at the beginning.
I would like to see Stalin bribed into war with Roosevelt (Right now he's WHEOOHRN so no bribing possible). Stalin will almost always take a bribe to DOW, even if he dislikes you.
I assume Rostov will be chop-then-build-workshop, to get the hammers earlier? I think it can be micro'ed so that it doesn't actually have to work that forest tile.
Definitely keep the GG a chariot - I would never upgrade that unit.
Roosevelt might have gotten Astro on his own, given his fast tech rate. But Churchill definitely did get steam power.
I assume Rostov will be chop-then-build-workshop, to get the hammers earlier? I think it can be micro'ed so that it doesn't actually have to work that forest tile.
There are three workers on it, so might as well workshop immediately. We are not going to finish IW before the chop comes in either way.
And I'll micro from coast to forest since the hammer is worth more than the two commerce right now.
I can't imagine why I would have left a citizen working the coast in Rostov ... a stray gamma ray must have flipped a bit in your hard drive on the save game file
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for two turns, then 100%
for a bit.
