SGOTM 12 - Regular

The current state of the nation is something like this...

Constantinople
Has a market and uni, so we shouldn't need to use the lux slider for the forseeable future. Currently makes 70bpt.
I have tied myself in knots trying to figure what to do with our iron; it is currently unimproved, so we are just finishing a 3-turn knight. As soon as that is done, the mine will be ready, so we can run at 30spt again. Perhaps Constan should build a huge pack of dromons (well, 6 or 7) while we still have the ability to build them.
I strongly suggest not roading that iron again. We now have a source over at Cuzco, and I think we should unhook that, and use it for disconnect/reconnect. Even if we aren't building many units, building them for fewer shields will allow our cities to concentrate their production on infrastructure.

Osaka
Now has a granary, and it is intended to produce two-turn workers (+5fpt, 4spt; +5fpt, 4spt + 3 on growth; micro one shield to a commerce if you like) with which to pump up our other towns on Eta (Azjap) and Alpha (Indomaya). Mind you, none of those towns are quite ready to be sized up - perhaps these workers can find a way to help out with that. But be quick before we go bankrupt! :p

Tenoch and Teo
Building their aqueducts, and probably want markets next as they don't have much head-room in happiness.

Kyoto
Doesn't need an aqueduct as it has fresh water, so already doing market.

Delhi
Don't forget to put the citizen from the mountain back to the bg - I only put him on the mountain because I didn't want to miss the horse if Henry's spears attacked us.
Delhi is doing a horse for upgrade and has concentrated on units because I was expecting war with Portugal at any time.

Bombay
Still in the hands of the Spanish. We can take it back at our leisure - the more difficult decision over here is how we would attack Lisbon, and whether Bombay would be a liability or an asset in such a war. Would anybody like to propose an attack plan? Our alliance against Rome will end in 4 turns, and it looks like Henry might get through the term without cancelling on us.

SGOTM12_Regular_170bc_India.JPG


Chichen
Corruption recently increased here it seems, so let it work coast instead of plain, at least until water has been brought down from India. All the slaves in this area are here to take part in this important irrigation project.

Copan
When the library is finally done here, it will have access to the three grassland tiles in the southwest, which will be the eventual extent of the irrigation project.

Cuzco
Our current iron source, and the only town on Alpha in a position to build slaves. Personally I think we are pretty short on manpower right now. If we do disconnect/reconnect on this iron, there is no need to comit many slaves to it - it is fine to have iron hooked only once every 6 or 9 turns, for instance.

Tiwanaku
In a little danger of flipping to the Ottoman I suppose. I would put at least one whip into that library. Indeed this town is probably not going to get out of max corruption territory any time soon, so it will be seeing plenty of the whip, at least until we can run it as a science farm.

Thebes
Currently in resistance. Now that Egypt is gone, every unit left in town will quell one resister per turn. But you don't want to do that! Because resisting citizens may not add to our economy, but they don't depend on it either. We don't have to feed them or keep them happy, which is important because until we get Astronomy, we cannot afford to do both at once. So let them resist until Thebes is hooked to our luxury network - I suggest taking the mace out of town and working one scientist and the three grasslands in there. There's no need to build slaves from here either is there? Library, barracks, courthouse, FP, any preferences people?

Memphis
As with Thebes, don't assume that I meant anything by queuing a slave up in here. Infrastructure or defense is probably more important.

Our Enemies
We have a couple of dromons annoying the Romans by bombing their terrain improvements and blockading their harbour. If you lift the blockade of Rome every so often, a galley will sail out for a couple of tiles, ripe for the sinking. :sniper: In this state, Rome is no threat to us at all. Of course, invading is much harder.

Our Friends
Our friends are all acting very suspiciously. There's that stack of Portuguese spears which seems to want to head south. There aren't any barbs down there, and Henry is not at war with the Osman, so what does he want? We have ROP, but I don't trust him.
The Ottoman is also acting strangely, shuffling units around on our border, and even crossing a stack of spears over for a turn. It may just be the effect of not have been to war, so he has large numbers of junk units crammed into a very small space. There is an Ottoman galley near our wines, which seems desperate to explore the Byzantine Channel. Every turn I block it and it turns away again, then I unblock it and it heads back. Again, I thought he was angling to land next to one of our towns, but perhaps the pressure of not being able to build settlers is just getting to poor Osman.
And finally the Persian is sending galleys along the south coast of Eta, and he has two units next to Memphis. Of course, these approached the town while it belonged to Egypt. Still I wouldn't be surprised if he sneak attacked us. Or he would dow if we try to boot him. Maybe wait to see if he lands any units on Eta before trying the old boot? But we do have dromons which could cross back from Egypt and attack those Persian galleys this turn...

And The Leader
He is standing outside Memphis. The obvious choices are (1) an army of ACs/knights, we have two elite* units available for it, (2) build the FP in one of the Egyptian towns, (3) save him to put the FP somewhere else.

The Whole Empire
Astronomy is due in 8 turns, and on the bottom branch we are up to Invention; we have tech parity with France, who researched Invention. I assume Joan is doing Guns now, as it will get her UU. We have 5 luxuries, trading dyes in from Sumeria.
We are currently under our units support limit (54/58 units) but of course fast worker and dromon production can change that. Our military consists of 10 ACs (3 in the army), 4 crusaders, 14 mace/longbows, 7 knights and 14 dromons. Which puts us strong to every other civ of course. We have also just moved into the lead in score, ahead of Frace.

SGOTM12_Regular_170bc.JPG
 
I think, Amsterdam might be a nice FP location. Thebes is not that good I think.

I also think that we should make another army, it greatly helps with conquering, a Fp wouldn't help that much atm. BTW, which city do we leave to Persia? Shall we gift them some rather useless town and capture both their cities or do we leave them Persepolis?

I assume they are next on our list, besides Portugal.
In 4 turns our alliance with them ends, so we might wanna attack them then anyway, maybe they make peace with Rome before that.
 
wouldn't we want to keep Protugal alive as well? do we want to gift them tiwanaku before declaring the war to take their otehr cities?
 
Portugal isn't Scientific, so I don't think they are of any use...the cities are more useful in our hands...

Besides the scientific civs, I only can imagine France be of any help for us as a trading partner who can research some techs.
 
arrgl stupid me. Due to their early seafaring money and their good scouting, they are always in the techlead early, so I duped them as Sci. But of course they are Exp, Sea.

Well then tiwanaku maybe to persia? would give a whole new meanign to the term Science farm.

The ottomans are playig a nice OCC to start with, so no need to fight the war there.
 
Especially if we want to set the FP on the Egyptian continent, it might be nice to have both Persian towns. We could gift Bombay to them. the advantage there is they can't build boats then to sneak attack us. OTOH, Bombay is a nice town as such.
 
Ah yes, you reminded me I made quite an error there. When I thought Portugal was about to sneak attack us, I gave them ivory in exchange for all their gold. So now I suppose we are looking for a way to get Portugal to dow us. It would be great if they gave Rome peace, but the chance of that gets slimmer by the turn. Of course in 4 turns time our ROP runs out too, so we could use a boot order exacerbated by some extortion attempts.

As for Persia, yes at least one of their towns (Persep) is in our 'core' zone so from that point of view it would be nice to have it. And of course we might find ourselves at war with them soon enough anyway.
It is true that Tiwanaku is a good candidate for gifting away; it is our most distant town, and giving it away would reduce the worry of having the Ottoman hordes on our doorstep. I do worry about whether that would break our trade route to Sumeria though, as it has a west-facing harbour, and it was only when we took that town that the option to trade with Sumeria became available. Do we need ROP with the Ottomans to trade through their coastal waters?

If so, we could do (1) ROP with Osman, (2) sell Tiwanaku's harbour, (3) retreat our units to the mountains between Cuzco and Tiwanaku, (4) give Tiwanaku to X-Man, (5) he dows us or we dow him.
Mind you, despite a poor showing in 300, I still fear the Persian immortals. So I don't really have a battle plan of how we take the Persian core.
 
We could renew the alliance with Portugal and still tie it to the Peace Treaty. But it is then up to them when war occurs, but at least we could get rid of the ROP, btw, shall Bombay be captured soon, can anybody confirm, whether towns that once had an expansion under a former civs government don't autoraze?
 
I'm not sure if we will get the choice to tie the renewed peace treaty to the war. Maybe it is just "peace - peace: we would like to extend this deal". In which case we would be defaulting on my ivory deal :cringe: if we said no.
Maybe it will work differently if we toggle automatic renegotiation of deals in the game preferences for that turn?

As for the other point, I am now convinced that you were correct when you said that such a town would not autoraze. I loaded up an old COTM save, found a town which had been core for the Inca (now deceased) but in which I had no culture and only one pop. Gifted it and took it back, no razing. Gifted one of my own size 1 towns without culture, took it back and it razed.
So we can take Bombay whenever is convenient. During my turnset I was thinking of taking Lisbon first and Bombay second, as Bombay doesn't seem to help us get any closer to Lisbon (except for better roads to the border), while being a soft target for Portuguese horses. In fact all those units out in the Indian countryside were on their way to sit on the forest outside Portuguese borders, when they meets the spears coming the other way, and had their little face-off.
 
Got it will play soon (30 mins or so). Will do the following:

1) Sign ROP with Ottomans.
2) Sell Tiwanaku harbour.
3) Gift Tiwanaku to Persians.
4) Start war with Persians.
5) Hope like hell that Portugal declares on us.
6) Leader for army, filled with ACs and knight.

PaperBeetle has handled the town builds. Anything else?
 
Infrastructure in Egypt. My money is on library in Thebes and whipping a barracks in Memphis next turn - if it is going to be a front line town versus the Persians, we would prefer that our multi-hp units heal fast.
We can afford to bring units south from Byzantium too - it needs some defense of course, to protect against the unexpected, but is fine for happiness now that it has a market.

To prevent Persian galleys harassing Azjap, it is best to try and move the naval battle to Persia's coast as we have done with Rome - the Persian galleys certainly can't sail out of town and over to our coast in one turn, so we can always sink them before they do damage.

I'll post a screenshot of Persepolis when I get home. I think he only had 3 spears and a galley in there back when I got the embassy. But obviously he has built some immortals, and probably many of them.

You might want to sail one of our dromons through Memphis and get a better look at the northern end of the gulf beyond. Could even be a nice spot for troop bombardment - the other Persian town is northeast of Memphis.
 
I messed things up. Badly. Rome managed to sneak out two legions and land them next to Teo. I signed peace with Rome to save the town. However a few turns later when I thought I had enough troops to defend I gave them the boot order and they dowed. Rome will have Teo next turn (unless we gift it away).

Before that I had gifted Tiwanku to the Persians and signed ROP with the Ottomans. We are at war with Persia, and I took Persopolis.

There have been a couple of American landings. One near Thebes and one near Chichen Itza. These were repelled, but be on the look out for more. I have started building Copernicus and we are researching Gunpowder.

I think I shall resign from Team Regular at this point as I do not have the concentration or skill to do a decent job for the team. Apologies. Am having trouble loading up the save, but I'll do it as soon as I can. Good luck...
 
The GOTM server is down - Ainwood posted about it in the main GOTM forum.

So I'm not clear where we stand between "when I thought I had enough troops to defend I gave them the boot" and "Rome will have Teo next turn". You mean you attacked the legions and lost?

Has Teo finished its aqueduct yet? If we lose control of that town, the library will be lost, but aqueducts are indestructible. We can give it to Spain and then take both Bombay and Teotihuacan back at the same time? That doesn't sound too bad, and we obviously need to deal with these Roman wreckers before we start amusing ourselves with the Portuguese. So the Portuguese ivory mistake can run its 20 turns I guess.

How much research have we put into Guns? I am relatively confident that France will get it, and soon. We should be doing Banking, but if we have already put significant beakers into Guns, then it may be worth continuing, so we can buy it from France at a reduced rate (i.e. just Astronomy perhaps). Whatever happens on the tech front, we don't want to give France Astronomy until we are within 7 turns of completing Copernicus; we should take 14 turns to build it. Paris can do it in 7.

As for the Americans, should we just give them pece? They are giving us war happiness I think, but we are obviously getting attacked in too many places to keep them all under control. So my list of people that I want to be at war with is:
(1) Rome. Because we have no choice for several turns at least. And because they need to be taught a long, hard, painful lesson in not messing with the Byzantines.
(2) Spain. Because Bella won't give our loaned towns back even if we ask nicely!
(3) Persia. Can we wrap them up quickly now? The faster the better of course, and then we can bring some forces back north to deal with the Romans, leaving the second army in Perso-egypt to keep an eye on the locals.
 
I think I shall resign from Team Regular at this point as I do not have the concentration or skill to do a decent job for the team.

I don't accept. :lockin: With arch on sabbatical, and madviking and Wardancer vanished into the shadows, we can't afford to let players out of the team without a fight! :p
But I'll do you a deal - I'll let you skip until you've got CivAssistII running, and internet access on your Civ3 machine.
 
I messed things up. Badly. Rome managed to sneak out two legions and land them next to Teo. I signed peace with Rome to save the town. However a few turns later when I thought I had enough troops to defend I gave them the boot order and they dowed. Rome will have Teo next turn (unless we gift it away).

I hope you didn't sign peace with Rome before our alliance with Portugal was over...that would really be messed up...

Everything else is probably fixable. We can gift towns without it being that bad.
 
I broke no deals when I signed peace with Rome. And yes I did attack the legions with a couple of ACs without much luck (I think I took 2HPs off them). I can't remember whether the aqueduct is done. Civ Assist might be achievable but internet will not be (at least not in time for this SGOTM).

Our troop situation in Persia is OK. Our army is mostly healthy and we have a few knights and ACs knocking about. They are on their way to the other city.

I think we have one, or maybe no turns invested in gunpowder. But certainly not many.
 
OK, my thoughts after looking into the save with CAII:

I don't know if we need to gift Tenochtitlan. The reasoning with Bombay was, that I thought Rome might raze it. I don't think they'll raze Teno, as it has no cultural pressure. I think they won't raze it. OTOH gifting to a weaker opponent is not that bad. E.g. against someone we might even get a city with a peace treaty. But that's maybe too far off, now.

Peace with America seems reasonable. We can look for another target for war happiness.

Pasargadae would also be a nice FP location IMO, so if we get a leader soon...

I vote for PB jumping in for a few turns. I hope Kulko and madviking are fine with that.

BTW, Tax, how did that Roman ship get through?
Did you leave their port open or did it come from somewehere else?
 
The only reason I can see not to gift Tenoch would be that we didn't want war with another civ.
The arguments in favour of the gifting are:
(1) No pop killed as Rome takes the town, although whoever owns it will see all our nice happy people, and immediately start pressganging them into service as spearmen.
(2) A better chance of keeping buildings. Either way we will have to sell the library, as that cannot survive changing hands, but Tenoch has a barracks and a courthouse, which we should try and keep intact. No uncultural buildings will be destroyed by gifting as far as I know.
(3) No war weariness or cash lost from the treasury.
(4) Restricting Roman movement on Azjap. If we let Rome have Tenoch, they can heal those legions faster, load them on their galley, if it is still in the area, and move out faster towards Teo by road. Also Tenoch will be uncorrupt for them, so they will be able to build units there quite quickly. If we give the town to Spain, then Rome just has two damaged legions trekking around foreign lands. Easy pickings for us if we get enough units over to them. Two ACs versus two legions is not good odds. A little better than 50/50 maybe, or maybe a little worse. Nowhere near good enough odds to gamble a town on. If we have the choice of when to fight, then we should choose battles which we will win with a high degree of certainty.
 
OK, covinced.
As we will go to war with Spain pretty soon either way, we can gift it to them.
 
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