SGOTM 12 - Spooks
- Thread starter AlanH
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Andronicus
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Correct, however if an AI is at war with Russia it will ignore our transgression against them.
It appears more complex however
Checking current situation
- there are a number of AI with no gold whom I cant check including Iroquois and Arabs
- all AI on other continents will trade gold for gpt including Babs who know Russia!
- Carthage will trade gold for gpt if we give them enough (they would never trade 9g for 1gpt but will trade it for 5gpt)
- actually Babs want a more unbalanced trade too - they wont trade 3g for 1gpt, but will for 2gpt.
It seems that our rep has only been partially damaged, we can still trade if the trade is very lopsided. This doesnt fit with any of my past experiences nor anything I have read
Andronicus
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Just had another thought on avoiding losing Newtons in Sistine cascade
Option of switching current uni build to Cop, then Newton then Uni
result -> Cop and Newtons built 3 turns earlier increasing likelihood of success
Cost is delay of uni by approx 20 turns (lose 20 * 50% * base commerce)
Gain 3 extra turns cop (gain 3 * 100% * base commerce) and 3 extra turns Newtons (gain 3 * 100% * base commerce)
Overall lose 4 * base commerce (currently approx 80) = 320 beakers
Overall gain increased likelihood of getting Newtons which gives long term 100% * base commerce (which increases after growing size 21)
Depends how much risk we wish to take, but losing Newtons would be quite a setback (missing 80 bpt for ? 70 turns could delay us 4 or 5 turns)
One option is to investigate Nineveh for 116g
edit
checking back through the turnlogs I see we traded Theology to Babylon in 150AD meaning they likely started building Sistine in 130AD (turn 121). This would put my predicted date of build at the shorter end of the range I quoted ie 360 shields at 10-12 spt -> 30-36 turns, turn 151-157.
If Paris builds uni first it completes uni turn 140, Cop 150, Newtons well after Nineveh completes Sistine, approx turn 163
I estimate we enter change of age in 18 turns (turn 157)
Ideally we would want Nineveh to complete Sistine prior to age change, then no-one would know ToG other than us so no casade
Washington is first risk of cascade to Newtons but we wouldnt give them ToG anyway
Edrine would reach the 240 shields turn 200 - no risk there, leaving Pasagardae as only real risk. Unfortunately we have no way of knowing its production.
My conclusion
Little to be gained delaying Paris uni as only small window of risk (ie Nineveh builds Sistine after we have traded ToG to scientifics but before Paris completes Newtons)
If we approach age change and Sistine not built - consider investigating Nineveh at that time (or send MDI to Pasagardae under rop and investigate it). If it will complete in the few turns between age change and Newtons completing we could delay age change and save cash for 100% science in IA
Option of switching current uni build to Cop, then Newton then Uni
result -> Cop and Newtons built 3 turns earlier increasing likelihood of success
Cost is delay of uni by approx 20 turns (lose 20 * 50% * base commerce)
Gain 3 extra turns cop (gain 3 * 100% * base commerce) and 3 extra turns Newtons (gain 3 * 100% * base commerce)
Overall lose 4 * base commerce (currently approx 80) = 320 beakers
Overall gain increased likelihood of getting Newtons which gives long term 100% * base commerce (which increases after growing size 21)
Depends how much risk we wish to take, but losing Newtons would be quite a setback (missing 80 bpt for ? 70 turns could delay us 4 or 5 turns)
One option is to investigate Nineveh for 116g
edit
checking back through the turnlogs I see we traded Theology to Babylon in 150AD meaning they likely started building Sistine in 130AD (turn 121). This would put my predicted date of build at the shorter end of the range I quoted ie 360 shields at 10-12 spt -> 30-36 turns, turn 151-157.
If Paris builds uni first it completes uni turn 140, Cop 150, Newtons well after Nineveh completes Sistine, approx turn 163
I estimate we enter change of age in 18 turns (turn 157)
Ideally we would want Nineveh to complete Sistine prior to age change, then no-one would know ToG other than us so no casade
Washington is first risk of cascade to Newtons but we wouldnt give them ToG anyway
Edrine would reach the 240 shields turn 200 - no risk there, leaving Pasagardae as only real risk. Unfortunately we have no way of knowing its production.
My conclusion
Little to be gained delaying Paris uni as only small window of risk (ie Nineveh builds Sistine after we have traded ToG to scientifics but before Paris completes Newtons)
If we approach age change and Sistine not built - consider investigating Nineveh at that time (or send MDI to Pasagardae under rop and investigate it). If it will complete in the few turns between age change and Newtons completing we could delay age change and save cash for 100% science in IA
killercane
Deity
No one will have Theory of Gravity that is non scientific. So Americans wont build Newtons. And it sounds like only the Babs can get Sistine built soon. The Americans started it too late to get it done, which would be the only possible problem (Babs cascade to Newtons). So no real problem unless I am missing something?
WackenOpenAir
Deity
How can we play with a camel instead of spooks ?
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Andronicus
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Correct as cross posted in my edit
Only risk is if Pasargadae has production to build 240 shields in 27 turns (9spt) and Nineveh builds Sistine after age change and before Paris builds Newton
I suspect this production for Pasargadae is unlikely but could be investigated with a MDI taking a walk to Pasargadae from near Memphis.
I think Nineveh's completion of Sistine may occur in this window.
Sorry team. I won't let you down again.
Puuh... That was close.Don't do that again!
@Andro: Good conclusion, we should inspect Persia. ROP?
WackenOpenAir
Deity
If our reputation proves damaged to much to buy their techs for gpt, we should consider pausing research to build up a lump sum before going into IA. Our upkeep costs with hospitals and maybe more universities, aquaducts and libraries will rise higher than what the AI may be able to support for us anyway. So without cash, we couldn't run 100% science anyway. It should be possible to turn back the gold into research if we never exceed 4 turn research.
It would still cost us something of course since we would have hospitals later, creating a larger worker force costing us upkeep, and delaying the extra population. But that cost may be smaller than what we lose if we cannot trade all the techs we want or we lose lots of gpt on those trades that we cannot get back because it is valued so lowly when we pay it.
It would still cost us something of course since we would have hospitals later, creating a larger worker force costing us upkeep, and delaying the extra population. But that cost may be smaller than what we lose if we cannot trade all the techs we want or we lose lots of gpt on those trades that we cannot get back because it is valued so lowly when we pay it.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Why not just gang up on Cathy?
I think we will have a good chance to get Sumeria's free tech for Monarchy, Chivalry and gpt (They shouldn't know Cathy by then). After we got that, we can go after the other SCI civs, ordered from backward to advanced. If in th eend we still need Greece or Babs (if they change their mind), we can still follow Abegweit's suggestion which should work (only once 
). 
The turn before we reach IA however we should run a huge test on our solvency...
). The turn before we reach IA however we should run a huge test on our solvency...
Andronicus
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Dont forget we can still pay gpt if we renegotiate peace
The trouble with this is we cant check each AI for cheapest deal - we have to guess best deal first, then see if renegot peace allows it
As Paul says, Sumerians should allow good deals and some scientifics (? Korea, Germans, Sumerians, Ottomen) will hopefully still not know Russia allowing us full gpt possibilities
The final age change we need only 1 tech - fission
Since our gpt rep is likely to be known by all at that stage, I suggest we should be willing to do a one off pay huge gpt at next age change then immed dow after complete the transactions.
This could be a phoney war if it was for example against Germans or Sumerians.
The downside would be one less vote for us at UN, but if we gifted cities to them on the turn before UN voting to make them our rival, then dowed and bribed most everyone else it could work out.
The trouble with this is we cant check each AI for cheapest deal - we have to guess best deal first, then see if renegot peace allows it
As Paul says, Sumerians should allow good deals and some scientifics (? Korea, Germans, Sumerians, Ottomen) will hopefully still not know Russia allowing us full gpt possibilities
The final age change we need only 1 tech - fission
Since our gpt rep is likely to be known by all at that stage, I suggest we should be willing to do a one off pay huge gpt at next age change then immed dow after complete the transactions.
This could be a phoney war if it was for example against Germans or Sumerians.
The downside would be one less vote for us at UN, but if we gifted cities to them on the turn before UN voting to make them our rival, then dowed and bribed most everyone else it could work out.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
I dont believe in "not knowing russia"
If it can spread by other civs, not only from russia, then the whole world knows about it already.
chivalry and monarchy can't be enough. Their combined cost is significantly less than the cost of an IA tech and the IA tech will be a monopoly tech while these 2 are not. If one of them still takes gpt for the normal prize, that would be good though.
If it can spread by other civs, not only from russia, then the whole world knows about it already.
chivalry and monarchy can't be enough. Their combined cost is significantly less than the cost of an IA tech and the IA tech will be a monopoly tech while these 2 are not. If one of them still takes gpt for the normal prize, that would be good though.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
Turn0:
DOW Arabia. I will delay our invasion by a turn because the war with greece is started too late.
Russia, Theology, Chivalry + 16g
Greece, Theology, Ally vs Arabia
Korea, Theology, 36g
Mongols, Currency, 41g
Upgrade 2 horses.
Sell barracks in Trontheim
Turn 1:
First worker into Orleans.
Take 14gpt from greece, destruction of greece will be delayed. We really need cash.
Kill 12 Portugese units at the cost of 2.
Turn 2:
Portugal is interested in peace. I am not.
I kill 2 more portugese units at the cost of 1.
Turn 3:
1 more Portugese unit.
I swich Delhi, Bombay and Osaka to Knights, upkeep is getting too bad, i am gonna produce some more quality instead of quantity.
Units landed on Arabia. Bombing tells me there are 4 spears in Mecca.
Turn 4:
IBT. LB from Lisbon attacks our stack. Our knight wins glorious with just 1 damage.
Luckilly, there are only 2 pikes in Lisbon. We lose 2 MDIs and it's ours.
The other Portugese town is on hills.
Bombardment on mecca fails miserably and does only 2 total damage. We lose 2 MI on Mecca and generate a new Great Leader.
Mecca is size 11 so it does little for our unit upkeep now.
With reinforcements from paris ariving next turn, we will have 10 units here. I think that should be enough to take the rest of Arabia.
Both towns come with a harbor and market, so happiness is not an issue.
Time for a break now.
DOW Arabia. I will delay our invasion by a turn because the war with greece is started too late.
Russia, Theology, Chivalry + 16g
Greece, Theology, Ally vs Arabia
Korea, Theology, 36g
Mongols, Currency, 41g
Upgrade 2 horses.
Sell barracks in Trontheim
Turn 1:
First worker into Orleans.
Take 14gpt from greece, destruction of greece will be delayed. We really need cash.
Kill 12 Portugese units at the cost of 2.
Turn 2:
Portugal is interested in peace. I am not.
I kill 2 more portugese units at the cost of 1.
Turn 3:
1 more Portugese unit.
I swich Delhi, Bombay and Osaka to Knights, upkeep is getting too bad, i am gonna produce some more quality instead of quantity.
Units landed on Arabia. Bombing tells me there are 4 spears in Mecca.
Turn 4:
IBT. LB from Lisbon attacks our stack. Our knight wins glorious with just 1 damage.
Luckilly, there are only 2 pikes in Lisbon. We lose 2 MDIs and it's ours.
The other Portugese town is on hills.
Bombardment on mecca fails miserably and does only 2 total damage. We lose 2 MI on Mecca and generate a new Great Leader.
Mecca is size 11 so it does little for our unit upkeep now.
With reinforcements from paris ariving next turn, we will have 10 units here. I think that should be enough to take the rest of Arabia.
Both towns come with a harbor and market, so happiness is not an issue.
Time for a break now.
killercane
Deity
Can Mecca produce some workers?
Good progress on both fronts 
some minor points:
No further gpt to get around...
You don't think gifting lux to some strong economies makes sense to improve their solvency?
Looks like a fun turnset you are having.
But don't miss the beautifull spring sun and the poker match-ups
some minor points:
- the MGL should certainly form an army. With few knights / ACs around I vote for a MDI army. That will surely give us the edge on that island.
- As soon as resistance is quelled in Mecca, I'd
some units / slaves to get its size down. Happiness should not be a problem there. - Greece has three slaves for sale. They offer them for Iron + 1 lux but with those insecure trade routes these days I'd rather give chemistry to them.
- Orleans should switch to a lib or slaves imo. And use grass instead of the mined plain for +5fpt.
- Trondheim could get the lib in 2 if it used the Iron mount.
- The exposed MDI in Portugal should be covered by both ACs - they have a hp more and can retreat. Portugese should not have more than one LB per turn, right?
- I'm surprised to see so few workers in Portugal - I had thought they should quickly chop some slaves?
No further gpt to get around...
You don't think gifting lux to some strong economies makes sense to improve their solvency?
Looks like a fun turnset you are having.
But don't miss the beautifull spring sun and the poker match-ups
WackenOpenAir
Deity
The beautifull spring and poker is what causes this to take so long actually 
. This week, i have a little bit of a job and i will function as a pokerdealer for 4 days.
the MGL should certainly form an army. With few knights / ACs around I vote for a MDI army.
-Yep, if knights where there in mecca, i maybe would prefer a knight army, but i guess an MDI army will be good.
As soon as resistance is quelled in Mecca, I'd some units / slaves to get its size down. Happiness should not be a problem there.
-Indeed. I may even pop rush slaves. Or units as we don't really have a lot of units on that island. A library will also be nice to give it tiles for the future.
Greece has three slaves for sale. They offer them for Iron + 1 lux but with those insecure trade routes these days I'd rather give chemistry to them.
-I'll have a look at trade routes and think about what to give them.
Orleans should switch to a lib or slaves imo. And use grass instead of the mined plain for +5fpt.
-It is making warriors as planned for being upgraded. I had thought it could make warriors and slaves with 10spt. The corruption increase from capturing those 2 new towns seems to have it's effect already though, and we don't have 10 spt there. I'll have to think about how to solve this best.
Trondheim could get the lib in 2 if it used the Iron mount.
-Trondheim will end up corrupt, so i figured no real hury in producing the lib, so i'd make some food.
The exposed MDI in Portugal should be covered by both ACs - they have a hp more and can retreat. Portugese should not have more than one LB per turn, right?
-Indeed.
I'm surprised to see so few workers in Portugal - I had thought they should quickly chop some slaves?
-Yes, i just captured the town, i had the slaves mine a mountain near delhi first before i captured it as that seemed the only usefull thing they could do in safety. They are ready to move this turn.
No further gpt to get around...
You don't think gifting lux to some strong economies makes sense to improve their solvency?
-I think they would increase their science slider and not their gold income. I will think about it though.
I will also have to think about the logistics. When Arabia is captured, i will need boats there to bring units to the iroquois/russia, including the army. Some boats in the area south of spain would be nice to move units around there after taking portugal, And boats are still needed to bring backup from paris to arabia (the workers from orleans to be upgraded)
. This week, i have a little bit of a job and i will function as a pokerdealer for 4 days.the MGL should certainly form an army. With few knights / ACs around I vote for a MDI army.
-Yep, if knights where there in mecca, i maybe would prefer a knight army, but i guess an MDI army will be good.
As soon as resistance is quelled in Mecca, I'd some units / slaves to get its size down. Happiness should not be a problem there.
-Indeed. I may even pop rush slaves. Or units as we don't really have a lot of units on that island. A library will also be nice to give it tiles for the future.
Greece has three slaves for sale. They offer them for Iron + 1 lux but with those insecure trade routes these days I'd rather give chemistry to them.
-I'll have a look at trade routes and think about what to give them.
Orleans should switch to a lib or slaves imo. And use grass instead of the mined plain for +5fpt.
-It is making warriors as planned for being upgraded. I had thought it could make warriors and slaves with 10spt. The corruption increase from capturing those 2 new towns seems to have it's effect already though, and we don't have 10 spt there. I'll have to think about how to solve this best.
Trondheim could get the lib in 2 if it used the Iron mount.
-Trondheim will end up corrupt, so i figured no real hury in producing the lib, so i'd make some food.
The exposed MDI in Portugal should be covered by both ACs - they have a hp more and can retreat. Portugese should not have more than one LB per turn, right?
-Indeed.
I'm surprised to see so few workers in Portugal - I had thought they should quickly chop some slaves?
-Yes, i just captured the town, i had the slaves mine a mountain near delhi first before i captured it as that seemed the only usefull thing they could do in safety. They are ready to move this turn.
No further gpt to get around...
You don't think gifting lux to some strong economies makes sense to improve their solvency?
-I think they would increase their science slider and not their gold income. I will think about it though.
I will also have to think about the logistics. When Arabia is captured, i will need boats there to bring units to the iroquois/russia, including the army. Some boats in the area south of spain would be nice to move units around there after taking portugal, And boats are still needed to bring backup from paris to arabia (the workers from orleans to be upgraded)
Unless we plan to rush 2 knights in Mecca - in that case we could join the AC and wait four turns...
But it would provide at least a 4th wool tile and a BG... warriors from Orleans will cost so much for upkeep and upgrade till they find their way to the front...
I'd favor to connect it to Paris and build the lib - if just for culture.
Will Orleans be able to build 1 turn workers after our GA?
Not without a court I guess... These slaves near Trondheim - shouldn't they head for Paris? When I was up, the way was blocked by american units - is it still?
Yep. Naval transport is getting more important. We can soon expand our transport capacity to 4 - but I'd really love to keep some dromons around for battles
Andronicus
Emperor
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I note Persians are now annoyed with us
Thebes has only 1 MDI guarding it and produces a nice amount of science
Perhaps another reason to gift some lux (or even tech) to Persia
I agree making warriors for upgrading now money is so tight doesnt make a lot of sense. OTOH we would not want America to surprise us with a dow with few troops to defend our science center.
Perhaps allying them v Arabia would provide America with a distraction to send their troops?
Correct we need more transport - could 1 of the caravels near Mecca be spared to transport workers at Trondheim to Paris? The troops that dont fit in the existing transports could go by land, or would that be too slow as there appears to be no roads.
Who are the next target after Arabs?
Given the 2 most useful cities to us are Sparta and Athens, how about a dow on Iroquis and ally Greece now so that hopefully Iroquios take Greek cities then our army can relieve them of it (perhaps gifting Greece a refuge - maybe Trondheim - in the meantime)
Alternative is to dow Greece after Arab conquest and live with having 1 less scientific - seems a waste of a friendly AI.
Thebes has only 1 MDI guarding it and produces a nice amount of science
Perhaps another reason to gift some lux (or even tech) to Persia
I agree making warriors for upgrading now money is so tight doesnt make a lot of sense. OTOH we would not want America to surprise us with a dow with few troops to defend our science center.
Perhaps allying them v Arabia would provide America with a distraction to send their troops?
Correct we need more transport - could 1 of the caravels near Mecca be spared to transport workers at Trondheim to Paris? The troops that dont fit in the existing transports could go by land, or would that be too slow as there appears to be no roads.
Who are the next target after Arabs?
Given the 2 most useful cities to us are Sparta and Athens, how about a dow on Iroquis and ally Greece now so that hopefully Iroquios take Greek cities then our army can relieve them of it (perhaps gifting Greece a refuge - maybe Trondheim - in the meantime)
Alternative is to dow Greece after Arab conquest and live with having 1 less scientific - seems a waste of a friendly AI.
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