SGOTM 12 - Spooks

It was quite a weekend. Just getting back to live, i will have a look at the game soon.

Pretty silent here though, so it looks like you guys were busy as well.
 
Yea just got back from a weekend of bush camping. We have 2 Japaese exchange students staying with us at present so it was quite an experience for them in the Australian outback miles from anywhere with no facilities :D
 
Is mark here to play or am i gonna play ?

I guess the plans are just simple:
-Make Arabs fight Greece.
-Trade for chivalry and any gold available
-Capture Arabs
-Capture Portugal

Paris research will go up by 40 next turn, hopefully this will allow the use of some tax to fund our army without increasing the 4 turns needed for the research.

I think trontheim should build a library, then another worker to stay <7, then possibly a courthouse, but i aint sure yet.

If noone finds anything that needs discussion and Mark doesn't answer, i'll play tomorrow.
 
I havent yet looked at it. I suspect we are all burned out a bit on the game. I will look at it later.
 
I think trontheim should build a library, then another worker to stay <7, then possibly a courthouse, but i aint sure yet.
:agree:
If noone finds anything that needs discussion and Mark doesn't answer, i'll play tomorrow.
Okay.
I havent yet looked at it. I suspect we are all burned out a bit on the game. I will look at it later.
I guess noone wants to be the first to comment on my disappointing turnset. :ack:

This is kind of depressing because we are still in a quite good position.
I fear I destroyed the enthuiasm I saw in this team and feel sorry for it. :hide:

Looking back however, I missed comments like "Beware of that :viking: galley east of Paris!" or discussions on when to attack Portugal or what to research next - I know I should have started it, but with Wacken's great plans (no irony, they are really :thumbsup: ) I had both the feeling that all was discussed and those topics where so minor that I didn't want to bother you with my stupid questions... :blush:

Maybe I should also join a chat with you guys while I'm playing for instant discussion...

To increase motivation, yesterday I reread the SGotm-8-thread of Team Wacken... :rolleyes:
 
Don't worry too much about that. I do indeed think there were a few things not optimal, but not the worst things ever. The different order of research is of no real importance actually.

My lack of interest last days is probably best explained by my weekend activities and consumptions :crazyeye: :run:

And yes, we are probably still doing well enough to kick some ass this game.

I'd sure like to invite you to join KC and I on msn :)
 
One thing that might not be obvious at a short glance: The galley N of Trondheim is meant to get those workers to Orleans / Paris more quickly which are N of Mongols now.

I agree with Andro's suggestion to join them to Orleans to set up the worker factory (though this seems kinda weird :crazyeye: ) - once they improved some tiles for Orleans before. Should Orleans build a quick library now rather than the spear?
It's just 38&#37; corrupt (I know that will increase) and those wools will give us some 20 commerce @ size 6, that's ~15 after corruption with a lib.

Maybe if we add one worker instantly and the others road to get happiness to Orleans, we could finish the lib before reaching size 6 for 1-turn-workers? :hmm:

The musket would also be nice... :dunno:
 
Hi, guys as mentioned before work is quite intense these days and I am still 3 pages back reading. I do not know when I can catch up, so most probably I will need another skip. Sorry.
 
That's a pity, Mark. I hope your life finds a proper ballance again soon... :rolleyes:

Wacken, you're in charge. Have fun. :hammer:
(Impress us :p )

One minor detail to talk about (just to get into some discussion again):
We are about to lose two nice benefits by reseraching Magnetism and Metallurgy soon. What do we want to lose first, SoZ or GLH? :rolleyes:

I guess our main naval movements are done for some 20 turns so I'd favor Magnetism first. Then Metall, Banking last.

We are doing ~600 bpt now, (after?) next turn with uni in Paris ~650 bpt. That's 2x600 + 2x650 = 2500 till turn #143, 3150 till #144.
Odd numbers if you need to get 2080, 2560 or 2720. :mad:
That's why I chose to go for ToG next to easily get Metall and Magnetism in 4 each. I did not find a way to squeeze out the missing 60 beakers :(

Just to learn from it - would you have gone for those 2560ers in 4 turns and where would you get those 60 beakers? Or was I wrong and Paris will get Uni-benefit in the next turn already? :confused:

The more I think about it, the more I get convinced the uni is built before science is calculated... Looking back, that is such a close call I should have asked before, I know :suicide:
 
I am not really worried about those techs not fitting exactly, we are gonna need some gold to pay for the upkeep anyway.

I think will obsolete the lighthouse first because while it obsoletes the LH, it enables ocean tiles to make up for that.
 
Sorry for some more delay, it was a beautifull day, i had to get out to drink a few beers in the sun :)

edit: sorry mark, it's really not to rub it in.
 
Wow :eek:

So long with so few comments :lol:

Well I'm sure we all expect Wacken to do a perfect turnset, but FWIW here's my thoughts

Money
Not much avail - total of just over 100g with AI
Monguls have 41g - if we part with Monarchy
Korea have 36g - for Theol or a lux
Spain have 15g - ? for Theol -> get them building Sistine
Persia have 11g - will also give chiv for Chemistry
other than that its less than 10g :sad:

At risk of :deadhorse: , I suggest we donate all avail luxes to stimulate more commerce from the AI. Whilst I agree the AI is likely to research little if anything else for us (I still think it will research RP) at least this would give it more money to pay us for techs to support a higher tech rate (our current 100% science is not sustainable unless AI finds more money)

Specifically I would suggest
Spices to Persia and Babylon
Gems to Korea, Babylon & one of America, Germany or Greece
Wool to Ottomen, Persia and Babs
Ivory to Korea, Persia, Babs and 2 of Russia, Maya, England or Carthage

War plans
We currently rank as strong to everyone except Romans (average)

Portuguese war in progress - moving to Spain next. Selling Spain Theol may get one of their cities in wonder mode reducing unit production - ? worth it.
Portuguese appear to be sending pillagers into former Indian lands. If we block tile 2NE of Bombay, then unblock it, they may dance back and forwards whilst we take their cities. I note Portugal has Invention so anticipate some LBs and MDIs.
What's the plan for the 2 horses in Bombay? Currently they cost us 6gpt but do nothing - we need chivalry and upgrading them to knights so they can help gain more cities for the Spooks cause.

The southern continent concerns me that we have little planning in process.
AFAIK the Arabs dont appear to have been involved in any wars (also Iroquois?) and hence will likely have large stacks of units.
Our 8 units on board dromons approaching Arabia appear insufficient unless we can be sure Arab units are a long way from home.
I think we need to dow immed, ally Greeks so Arabs head thier units towards Sparta which appears to be 4 or 5 turns away from their western city (although there appears to be coast to east of Sparta so may even be further) and 7 or 8 from their eastern city
We then need to wait at least 5, maybe even 8 turns before attacking Arabs with dromon bombard support. This gives time to bring further reinforcements from Paris region (caravel in Paris can get to eastern Arab city in min 5 turns) increasing odds of success. I think we may need to keep our dromons out of view of Arabs otherwise they may not move all their surplus units if they feel threatened.
I note Greeks have taken Russian city of St P - Russians may be in danger of elimination - not sure what we can do to help other than getting Greeks into war v Arabs

City plans
Constan - 1 turn workers
Teo, Teno, Osaka and Kyoto - unit until markets, courts just before hospital builds
Thebes - ? caravel after next MDI to transport the idle units to war zone
Delhi - uni then ? market
Bombay - units to support war effort then workers
Orleans. This one is interesting. I started considering the mechanics of adding workers (in caravel on way to Paris) in 2 turns time, then decided to get best use need to slot in lib. Then it dawned on me we cant grow it more than size 2 unless we use an expensive (3gpt) mp as it has no connection to lux other than its own wool. Options I see are to add 1 worker ( so grows quicker) and remainder connect up with Paris whilst Orleans builds lib then can build workers with occ MDI thrown in. Lib gives it access to another wool and 2 BGs. I cant see how we could do 1 turn workers as 4 wool and 2 BGs reg 4 irrigation to get 10fpt, leaving 14 shields post GA - insufficient with 38% wastage and likely to increase with further captures (unless we can get WLTKD? hmm, maybe might work if it decreases wastage by 30%). This might be worth investing some effort into as the sooner Paris is able to jump from size 12 to 21 the better.
Trondheim - lib and workers sound about right - hard to predict effect of court as corruption will increase with time and further captures - Portuguese and Spanish)


Another concern I have.
With a number of Sistine Chapel builds in progress, what happens if they are not completed by the age change? We are then left gifting ToG to scientific AIs leaving possibility of cascade to Newtons before Paris can build it. I guess we have limited options, either risk it or we build Newtons in another city with sig less science benefit. Any thoughts?
 
Wow :eek:

So long with so few comments :lol:
We were missing you here... Did you finally lose your Japanese students in the outback? :D Where is Abegweit? :shifty:
Monguls have 41g - if we part with Monarchy
I'd rather give no optionals, Monarchy might still have some value for Sumeria, our #1 free tech donator... :old:
At risk of :deadhorse: , I suggest we donate all avail luxes to stimulate more commerce from the AI. Whilst I agree the AI is likely to research little if anything else for us (I still think it will research RP) at least this would give it more money to pay us for techs to support a higher tech rate (our current 100&#37; science is not sustainable unless AI finds more money)

Specifically I would suggest
Spices to Persia and Babylon
Gems to Korea, Babylon & one of America, Germany or Greece
Wool to Ottomen, Persia and Babs
Ivory to Korea, Persia, Babs and 2 of Russia, Maya, England or Carthage
I like that idea. However we should avoid trading through troubled waters but with Astro ahead, that might be a short living problem.
Portuguese war in progress - moving to Spain next. Selling Spain Theol may get one of their cities in wonder mode reducing unit production - ? worth it.
:agree:
Portuguese appear to be sending pillagers into former Indian lands. If we block tile 2NE of Bombay, then unblock it, they may dance back and forwards whilst we take their cities. I note Portugal has Invention so anticipate some LBs and MDIs.
What's the plan for the 2 horses in Bombay? Currently they cost us 6gpt but do nothing - we need chivalry and upgrading them to knights so they can help gain more cities for the Spooks cause.
I was indifferent if we want to build more - in Thebes for example. But money is short, so we might have to settle for these two... :blush:
The southern continent concerns me that we have little planning in process.
I note Greeks have taken Russian city of St P - Russians may be in danger of elimination - not sure what we can do to help other than getting Greeks into war v Arabs
I'm sure, to ally Greece will help for both problems. I should have ignited that war long ago...
Another concern I have.
With a number of Sistine Chapel builds in progress, what happens if they are not completed by the age change? We are then left gifting ToG to scientific AIs leaving possibility of cascade to Newtons before Paris can build it. I guess we have limited options, either risk it or we build Newtons in another city with sig less science benefit. Any thoughts?
For some cities we might track back when they started building Sistines - however we should be save it did not switch from some other wonder building (Do they only switch to a different wonder if their current building is completed elsewhere?)... and calculate their prospected build dates... :scan:
However our list won't be complete, maybe it's worth losing a research turn to inspect some cities? :dunno:
 
Now i didn't understand correctly, there was something that damaged our trading rep right ?

What exactly happened ?
What is the effect of this event ?
How can we handle this ? (alliances against the one that has a problem with us?)

I'm still kind of busy, and there is no hurry right ?
 
The war between Greece and Russia disrupted our trading route we were carrying luxuries on to one of them. The news of our "dastard behaviour" did not spread far yet so IIRC it's only the civs on the greek continent that are not willing to accept gpt from us for lump sum.

Current enemies of the fobbed civ however will still take our gpt happily.:pat:

Several civs still trade as usual with us. So the knowledge did not spread very far yet. It would be nice if a bored player tested our ability to trade 1gpt for anything they have to several AI to make a list. Right now I think this is limited to those Greek continent civs.

That trashed trading rep won't affect their attitude towards us (which is essential for the UN election) but of course it affects our ability to buy free techs for lux & gpt.

edit: There is no hurry, take your time...
(although I'm quite curious...)
 
The war between Greece and Russia disrupted our trading route we were carrying luxuries on to one of them. The news of our "dastard behaviour" did not spread far yet so IIRC it's only the civs on the greek continent that are not willing to accept gpt from us for lump sum.

Current enemies of the fobbed civ however will still take our gpt happily.:pat:

Several civs still trade as usual with us. So the knowledge did not spread very far yet. It would be nice if a bored player tested our ability to trade 1gpt for anything they have to several AI to make a list. Right now I think this is limited to those Greek continent civs.

That trashed trading rep won't affect their attitude towards us (which is essential for the UN election) but of course it affects our ability to buy free techs for lux & gpt.

edit: There is no hurry, take your time...
(although I'm quite curious...)
I already did quite some time ago ;)
edit : Post 898 some pages back
Andronicus said:
Bad news on our trade rep unfortunately

I noticed that Babs will not trade hard goods for gpt

Going through all civs, it appears Babs, Carthage, Russians, Arabs will not - I dont know about Iroqois as they have nothing to test against. Notably Greeks will trade which suggests it is the Russians who we inadvertently slighted since they are at war with Greeks (so Greeks ignore the misdeed).

I note in the 150BC save we were trading Russia ivory, spices and gems but the war with Greece evidently interrupted this as in the 70AD save no trade was possible.

Nothing we can do about this any more other than noting that if we need AI money / techs and only have lux or gpt we can always opt to renegotiate peace treaty and get hard goods that way.
This has significance for the tech trading at the age change - we want to be free to renegotiate peace with any scientific AI at that time
 
Is only Russia itself able to tell the tales of our deeds to others?
If we kill Russia, would it no longer be possible for the rumors to spread any further ?
 
We were missing you here... Did you finally lose your Japanese students in the outback? :D
They flew back to Japan today (alarm went off at 4am this morning - I'm feeling tired now - almost midnight)

I'd rather give no optionals, Monarchy might still have some value for Sumeria, our #1 free tech donator... :old:
Good point, what about currency then? Their gold will likely disappear soon - they are flush having just eliminated Hittites.

I like that idea. However we should avoid trading through troubled waters but with Astro ahead, that might be a short living problem.
I think you mean Magnetism - we got Astro some time ago.
Trade with Greeks will be cut off after dow Arabs as they are still at war with Russia. We appear to be 9 turns from Magnetism and 18 turns from age change. We may want to hold back some lux for negotiating at age change.

For some cities we might track back when they started building Sistines - however we should be save it did not switch from some other wonder building (Do they only switch to a different wonder if their current building is completed elsewhere?)... and calculate their prospected build dates... :scan:
However our list won't be complete, maybe it's worth losing a research turn to inspect some cities? :dunno:
Looking back through prev saves and turnlogs
Edrine was building Sistine turn 120 (150BC) (? making 5 or 6 spt - predict approx turn 180)
Nineveh was not building it in 150BC, but was in turn 131 (70AD) (? making 10-12spt - predict approx turn 160, but could be as early as turn 150)
Washington commenced in turn 132 (90AD) (? making 12spt - size 11 - predict approx turn 192)
Pasagardae was not building 70AD but was turn 134 (130AD) - unknown, but is the number 2 city and unlikely to be any faster than Washington)
So short story is
Paris completes Newtons in 23 turns from now, turn 154 (edit it is now turn 139, so wont complete till turn 162!), about 6 turns ahead (edit behind) of Nineveh's Sistine build
If Nineveh can build in less than 23 turns, then Washington builds Newton approx turn 152 - it may well be close call - hopefully Paris builds Newtons before Nineveh builds Sistine. All worker actions to mine the wool and hill at Paris are urgent.
 
Anyone who knows Russia can tell the tale so killing her won't solve the problem.

Alliances seem to be about the only way forward.
 
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