SGOTM 12 - Spooks

[WackenOpenAir]

Damn whats happening ?
They don't have suicide planes i hope ?

 

[Andronicus]

Re route to Paris

I note there is a lot of ocean (1 movement point tiles) between Paris and Edrine and between Kyoto and Istanbul.
If there is a passage between Isanbul and English island this route may be quicker or as quick and has added advantage of quicker shipping troops from Paris drop off to Orleans drop off.

Worth exploring with our curragh?

 

[Andronicus]

My suspicion is that she has her own. It's possible that she has an extra wool instead.

You could tell if they are trading from F4 screen now you have an embassy

In any case, eliminating the extra units would speed up research more than this would slow it down.

Correct

From north to south it's Frogs, Vikes, Yanks.

I was wondering if we have any evidence for landbridge joining Vikes, French Americans with Monguls etc - if there is there are more ally options.
edit - I note there is a sea tile south of the area between the 2 meaning there must be a gap separating them

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Re route to Paris

I note there is a lot of ocean (1 movement point tiles) between Paris and Edrine and between Kyoto and Istanbul.
If there is a passage between Isanbul and English island this route may be quicker or as quick and has added advantage of quicker shipping troops from Paris drop off to Orleans drop off.

Worth exploring with our curragh?

that would not be quicker.

 

[Paul#42]

42 posts in 12 hours??!?

You guys have vacancy or no family?

Great discussion about Paris. I think taking Paris is that kind of coup you need to make the difference in ths game.

If we ignite a war between French and Vikings they might very well take the Viking town - and weaken Vikings so much that we can easily take them with our troops after the France campaign.

That makes it nine towns, one to go for the FP.

If we keep producing units after our 2nd wave (2 dromons with MGL, 2 MDI, AC?) has left our harbors, and directly take on Egypt before producing workers - wouldn't that solve our problem best?

The dromons of the first wave could prepare some partial ship-chain to speed up the arrival of the second wave...

Getting gunpowder
With France ruled out, I see Persia with the best chances to get gunpowder for us. They will soon start their GA, lose some cheap units and thus research quicker
I hope they finish the Dutch soon so we can send them after Cleo...

 

[Andronicus]

that would not be quicker.

I think you may be rushing to that assumption

I admit it all depends on there being a passage between Ottomen and English

From dromon drop off outside Kyoto it is 3 turns to tile 3SW of Istanbul
If passage through exists, it is 2 or 3 (if all coastal) to sea tile 3NE, 2E of visible English town.
From there it is at most 3 turns to drop off from tile 2E of Paris and only 2 turns if English island does not extend northward
Total probably 8 or 9 turns, possibly 7 (edit - further analysis shows 7 turns not possible).
No worse than going to east and by ending up on French east cost it is quick transfer to Orleans reducing turns for flip risk (which will be much higher than Japtec cities)
I suggest it is worth investigating with a curragh if one nearby

 

[Paul#42]

Could anyone (with an open C3C) assemble some screenshots and post some routes with some turn-numbers on it?
I fail to follow the discussion based on the two published screens if I have no C3C open
edit2: I'm thinking of some panorama view with Paris (or Const) on both ends of a big picture and some lines on it with numbers for every turn necessary to go there so we can compare eastern and western routes and look where we have to clear the fog.

edit: how long would our closest curragh need to get to Teo?

edit2: could it be worth a thought to jump our palace to Paris (after having an FP prebuild ready in Const)? If the area around is much more productive that might pay off in the long run.
edit3: Just to inspire WOA to do some more of his extremely interesting analysis... (no irony)

 

[Andronicus]

Could anyone (with an open C3C) assemble some screenshots and post some routes with some turn-numbers on it?
I fail to follow the discussion based on the two published screens if I have no C3C open
edit2: I'm thinking of some panorama view with Paris (or Const) on both ends of a big picture and some lines on it with numbers for every turn necessary to go there so we can compare eastern and western routes and look where we have to clear the fog.

Well i played around in paint and produced the following

Note 5th segment can go one more tile allowing 2 more tiles progress on next leg thanks to ocean resulting in arriving after 6 turns at tile I described in prev post, the green starting cross in the second screenie

The orange dots are poss land, white poss coast, light blue poss sea and dark ble poss ocean
Note 1 some tiles could be any of above
Note 2 I was unable to make much of a guess about the fog SE of Istanbul, my assumptions are merely based on a possible coast passage

PS apologies for messy screenies - this was only ever intended for my working out, but I was too lazy to re-do

 

[WackenOpenAir]

If we keep producing units after our 2nd wave (2 dromons with MGL, 2 MDI, AC?) has left our harbors, and directly take on Egypt before producing workers - wouldn't that solve our problem best?

Sure it would. But it would be way too costly. Every turn delay on our capital upgrade is costly. Starting to produce those workers asap is also one of our goals.

Thats why we do not want to build totally new units for taking egypt, and have our old units sit iddle in Paris. We want to use our units twice.
After conquering France, we can bring back our units to Egypt to take that.

how long would our closest curragh need to get to Teo?

If the curragh near paris would get home trough the english passage, it would take some 10-12 turns for it to get upgraded. That may be usefull for the second wave.

could it be worth a thought to jump our palace to Paris

No. (inspiring analysis, isn't it)

I think you may be rushing to that assumption

I see, you are right, our curragh that is now getting near Paris could maybe have a look there.

Indeed, persia should be our new research friend instead of France.

PS: Andro, Paris should be 1 tile NW of where you have that +.

 

[Andronicus]

PS: Andro, Paris should be 1 tile NW of where you have that +.

Yes it is!
That means moving red circle (landing spot) 1NW as well.
Fortunately that doesnt alter tiles to move

All depends on whether England and Ottomen are separate islands or not

 

[Paul#42]

Thats why we do not want to build totally new units for taking egypt, and have our old units sit iddle in Paris. We want to use our units twice.
After conquering France, we can bring back our units to Egypt to take that.

To get them back from France would take another 5+ turns
I'll have to check your graphs again to understand the benefit of the back-to-size-6-project.

No. (inspiring analysis, isn't it)

Yeah, that's disappointing. I had hoped to keep you busy for some time to catch up...

I see, you are right, our curragh that is now getting near Paris could maybe have a look there.

Both curraghs around should take some time to have a closer look at the coastlines and try to peer as far as possible into the inland.
edit: Wait - the curragh S of Paris could also uncover some fog to its east - whether there is a channel between England and Ottomans...
I'd let it check out Paris for 1-2 turns and then to London 2-3 turns.

 

[Paul#42]

Okay I checked (and understood - I think ) the graphs and the scenarios behind them. Good stuff!

Although this analysis does not take Paris and the FP into account I stand convinced to shrink our capital to 6 to quickly establish the work force. A well developed core is the most effective tool.
(If we get our Golden Age in that phase, we are dust )

What we would need however, is an extra dromon to carry these workers to Japan at times. I guess that might be before our dromon(s) return from Paris (most of them will stay there to carry units to Egypt).

So I assume, Abegweit continues to conquer Japan now. In the meantime our curraghs analyse the shortest path to Paris.

As soon as we own Japan and can start 4 dromons with 6 MDI and 2 pikes we'll do. Keep producing 2 more dromons and 2 MDI, send them along with MGL and an AC perhaps as reinforcements. Then another dromon and 15 workers...

a harbor inbetween (while we are capable to do 20spt)?

Although we could use the WH, we should sign peace with Rome some day soon.


edit: When I look at Paris - First I thought about how to make them switch to Leo's...
Now I think: They could build it very well in time for us. It should take them a mere ten turns (600s * 0.6 / 36spt).
So 13 turns from now. Maybe we also let them build Sun Tzu's till turn 23 from now

 

[Abegweit]

I was about to start playing when I realised that there is one question I need an answer to.

Do we want war with Egypt now?

I say yes.

 

[Paul#42]

I'd wait to dow Egypt for some (10?) turns.

1. I'd let Persia get rid of Dutch first and then ally them against Egypt
2. We should be able to take an active part ~10 turns after dow. I see us in Egypt in ~20 turns.

otoh we migth want Egypt to get their GA before we fight them...
Maybe we should ally them against Dutch, too?

 

[Abegweit]

If, as I suggested earlier, we want to attack in ten turns then we need to DOW now and bring the Persians in to burn off units. Even if we want to do it later, your point about the GA is good one.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

We have to pass by that area, and we do not want our GA to start early.

I sure hope that english ottoman pass is gonna be open so hat we can avoid that whole are as we also are at war with the dutch.
Dont forget the dutch are seafaring as well, so their ships have a bigger range.

If we find out the english ottoman pass can be used, then it is time to start talking about war with egypt maybe.

So i suggest no more wars the comming 6-7 or so turns. That should be the time needed for our curragh now near Paris to find out if we can use that pass as well as the time to take kyoto probably.

BTW, someone came with this beautifull plan to drop behind the enemy lines on the Aztecs.
Can anyone think of some extra tactics to make Paris easier?

For the aztecs there is 1 more thing you can do, leave the worker(s) unprotected and let them get a unit out of their last town to take it. Can do the same on Japan of course.

PS: The SoZ is build in 1400BC. So the AC's should be on every turnsets turn 4 and turn 9. (will it be the interturn before or after though?)

 

[Abegweit]

There is no danger from anyone in open waters as we have the GLight.

But got it. I'm playing now.

 

[Abegweit]

Pre-turn 1250 BC

Sell Construction to Abe and buy an embassy with Joan

Move some troops
Ping Aztec galley
Start to explore the English-Otto area
Lit to Toko for 24g
Invention to Xerxes for 7gpt + 7g
Invention to Hammy for 7gpt + 43g
MM to Mao for 26g
Invention to Alex for 34g
MM to Hiawatha for 2gpt + 9g
Mono to Joan for 5gpt + 9g
We now have 169g in the kitty and make 10 more each turn

Inter-turn
Aztecs move around randomly
Teno riots due to the war
I leave it that way because sig chance of starvation with all the Mexican troops in the area
Const MDI -> Dromon
MM Const for more commerce
Several civs start the Great Library

Turn 1 1225 BC
Move troops
Ping Roman curragh
Const to Hiawatha for 2gpt + 5g

Inter-turn
A couple more GLs starts

Turn 2 1150 BC
Battle of Osaka
Dromon bombards spear -> 3/4 spear
Dromon bombards spear -> 2/4 spear
4-4 MDI vs 3-4 spear -> 1/4 MDI
4/4 MDI vs 2/4 spear -> 4/4 MDI and the Japs are no more
Osaka comes with a barracks and two workers
Osaka -> warrior
Teo -> warrior
Move troops out of Teo and Teno towards Japan

Inter-turn
Const dromon -> dromon
Teno warrior -> Library
France builds GL

Turn 3 1175 BC
Sell construction to Japs for 9g, then declare war
5/5 sword vs 3/3 archer -> 4/5 sword
Move eight attackers and the pike out of Osaka towards Kyoto

Inter-turn
Babs and Dutch sign peace treaty
Several civs start Sun’s

Turn 4 1150 BC
Advance on Kyoto

Inter-turn
4/4 archer vs 4/4 Pike -> 1/4 archer
Const Dromon -> Dromon
Paris starts Leo’s I just so that gal
Persians and Dutch sign peace treaty

Turn 5 1125 BC
Battle of Kyoto
4/4 MDI vs 4/4 spear -> 2/4 MDI
4/4 MDI vs 4/4 spear -> 4/5 MDI
4/4 MDI vs 4/4 spear -> 1/4 MDI
4/4 MDI vs 3/3 spear -> 3/4 MDI
4/4 MDI vs 4/4 archer -> 2/4 MDI and the city falls
It comes with a barracks and a statue

Military ATM
11 swords/MDIs
2 warriors
4 dromons

We've been pretty lucky. Only loss was the pike.
So what next? Dutch are ready for peace if we want it. No loss to our rep because our allies already broke the treaty.

 

[killercane]

We are definitely kicking some tail. I dled the save but wont have a chance to check it for a bit. Any word on a passage via Ottoman territory?

And on the Japos.

 

[Abegweit]

Any word on a passage via Ottoman territory?

It's not certain yet but I would say that it's there. We'll know for sure in about two turns. Looks to me like the south-eastern route is many turns faster though. Too little ocean on the Ottoman route.

I was planning on checking the path once the fog has been cleared.