SGOTM 12 - Spooks

[WackenOpenAir]

No!
dont whip 3 citizens. Whipping causes unhappiness, it doesn't solve it.

At 40%, with 3 MP it kyoto is in balance. It produces 3 shields, so it needs 4 turns for 10 shields.
The 4th turn however, the MP will have left to paris. So it will starve 1 citizen. Then, the harbor is whipped to connect the luxes. It has now lost 1 citizen to whipping, and 1 to starvation. 5 citizens are remaining and 1 unhappy point for the whipping. We need 5 lux to keep these guys happy. We have 3, so if we can trade 2 more immeadiately when the harbors are done, we can keep 5 citizens in good shape.

Whipping more than 1 will cause a lot of unhappy problems in the future. Not buildng a harbor causes starvation to size 3 i think.

 

[killercane]

Well the tradeoff is jacking lux up 30% to 40. Wont it starve this turn to size 6, then next turn again to size 5 and so on unless we let it riot?

 

[Abegweit]

Oh not starving is with MP's. Those will leave in 3 turns...

OK. Do we really want to sacrifice 30% of our commerce for a city which only has three tiles which can generate 2F and any commerce at all? In any case, it is not relevant to this turn. Kyoto will starve. Furthermore, we have other troops which can act as MPs after the fleet sets sail.

Oh yes he will. The boats will arive on turn 7, he can attack on turn 8.

I find this difficult to believe but have not checked the routes. If so, steam on! Which way do you propose?

 

[killercane]

I think we can leave lux at 10%, reassign everyone to get 3 shields, starve turn 1 to 6 with scientist, and still get it whipped out on turn 4, I think.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Good plan.
With 3 MP, 10% lux and 1 clown, we can have 6 citizens. 5 of them working 2 food tiles. That will have a balance in food and happiness.

So starving a citizen right now will allow us to run the city and start building the harbor now as long as the MP is there. The 4th turn, there will be no more MP. We could use one turn of lux slider there. Then, we pop rush the harbor and it will be all happy again.



The boat that is gonna be produced in 2 turns should be loaded in the capital as soon as it is ready. It will then leave for a 10 turn trip. So thats 12 turns from now or KC's turn 7 to arrive.

The other 4 must get there the same turn. The southern route takes 9 turns was calculated, so there are 3 turns to bring the 4 ships to kyoto and load them. In those 3 turns, it also must be made sure that 2 units are in Constantinopel for that last galley.

The other troops wont be available for MP after we sail. Those are warriors that must walk to a place where they can be upgraded. They won't get to Kyoto in time i think. I assume these will be upgraded in Osaka.

 

[Abegweit]

The other 4 must get there the same turn. The southern route takes 9 turns was calculated, so there are 3 turns to bring the 4 ships to kyoto and load them. In those 3 turns, it also must be made sure that 2 units are in Constantinopel for that last galley.

Actually the southern route was calculated at ten with some hope that it might be nine depending on the exact configuration of the tiles which we haven't seen yet. Anyway... that's a minor point. I'll make sure that the troops are ready for the last dromon at the right moment.

The other troops wont be available for MP after we sail. Those are warriors that must walk to a place where they can be upgraded. They won't get to Kyoto in time i think. I assume these will be upgraded in Osaka.

Warriors can sail. There is one which could be - and should be - loaded onto a Dromon this turn.

Maybe move the leader out of Teo I dont know if it could flip but it is bad if it does.

Who would it flip to? Egypt?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Indeed, it cannot flip.

Abe, are you with us on the plan to starve it 1 citizen and then use a clow to keep it in action with the MP's and then rush the harbor ?

If you could manage to keep 3 MP in there at all times (i don't think you can since there will be no boats available for transporting and those warriors need to get to Paris as well in 6 turns) then we could make a worker in kyoto instead of rushing the harbor that could connect the roads. I however doubt we will have the MP for that.

 

[Abegweit]

Indeed, it cannot flip.

Abe, are you with us on the plan to starve it 1 citizen and then use a clow to keep it in action with the MP's and then rush the harbor ?

If you could manage to keep 3 MP in there at all times (i don't think you can since there will be no boats available for transporting and those warriors need to get to Paris as well in 6 turns) then we could make a worker in kyoto instead of rushing the harbor that could connect the roads. I however doubt we will have the MP for that.

We already have eleven attackers and the plan is to get ten to Paris. The warriors do not need to get on the boats. One warrior is already doing MP duty in Teno and a second should in Kyoto. There are other warriors being built in Osaka and Teo. Two MPs should be enough to keep Kyoto under control at size six. Definitely at size five.

Just to be clear, I am against rushing the harbour.

Edit: I am especially against upping the lux rate. Given the choice, I would rather let Kyoto riot. I don't think it's necessary though.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

10 units are to leave in 2 turns.
3-4 more are upgraded and to leave in 6 turns. (1 boat from capital, 1 from teno, if we get a 4th real unit to load, the leader can wait)
The plan is to send 13-14 total units to France.

I have thought again about Kyoto and found another solution, but it aint gonna be for free.
The clown plan doesn't work because then we can't have 3 shields per turn. So my new plan is:

T1) Use 3 MP for now, 1 clown, 10% lux. Work the hill. Starve city to size 6.
T2) Lux up to 30% to maintain the 6 citizens all working. Costs 8 gpt. (=12 science due to lib)
T3) MP have left, use remaining units and lux slider for 1 turn,
T4) worker produced, city now size5 and growing 1 food per turn. 3 MP and 10% lux would do. More lux if we can't gather the needed FP.
T5-T8) use MPwarriors from where we can while we build another worker.
T7) Ivory is connected, we need only 2 MP now.
T8) second worker produced, pop to size 4 and growing 2 food per turn. Production now 1 spt. 1 MP is now enough.
T10) road connected by the workers. Happiness is solved, Kyoto can grow back again.

No pop rushing, no uphappiness, no useless harbor, 2 very usefull workers.

It does cost some gold, but i think the workers are worth it.
We need workers bad.
To keep it cheap, we should produce a few extra warriors in Osaka / Teoti.
It would cost probably like 40-60 science now for the 2 workers, depending on the MPs you can muster. That is a pretty good deal, 2 extra workers is 2 turns earlier to upgrade the core with the worker join as well, so it will pay back big. The workers will also connect the Ivory to restart SoZ again.
Compared to rioting, the working citizens will also produce commerce, reducing the netto cost.
All together, it is well worth using the lux slider a few turns to keep this town producing workers.

The slaves working the jungle now can road towards Teno.

The coming 20-30 turns, you shouldn't watch our science progress to closely. These are turns where we invest for the future.
We caputure Paris, but we can't yet use it and we will be building workers from our capital.
After France, we hope to have enough surviving units to start fighting Egypt. While our core is now devoloping (building workers and aquaducts), we hope to have some gold to upgrade units. After taking France, we can expect 6-8 units out of those 14 to return to attack egypt. We should be able to upgrade some of our MP warriors by the time these boats return to attack egypt.
Then, 25-30 turns from now, it should all come together. We join the workers in our core, we capture the 10th city with upgraded workers and Paris builds it's FP. All of a sudden, we will have like 250 science per turn, and with Universities being build soon now, the fast research bringing us the tech for science wonders in Paris and our towns now building units to capture many science farms, it will keep on growing rapidly towards the 500 or so.
Executing these plans as fast as we can and thus getting to those numbers has priority over short term research abilities.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Getting an early golden age is probably the biggest risk for our succes now.

While the boats won't be attacked on open sea, they could be attacked by French boats when they unload their troops.

If possible, we should try to have movement points remaining after the unload so that the boats can retreat to sea tiles.

Just incase that doesn't really fit, we could bring the curragh that is now exploring the english pass back to Paris when it has done it's job to cover the stack of dromons at the french coast. It is cheaper and has the same defence, so it should defend first.

 

[Abegweit]

What route are you proposing to get to Paris from Constantinople in ten turns?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Dunno, just the AI pathing tells me it takes 10 turns. If you can find a better one, then that is of course good

Edit: oh it seems to be 11.

 

[Abegweit]

Turn 5 1125 BC (continued)
Kyoto -> worker
Move a second troop into the city
Two more head back towards Osaka to meet the galley there
Shuffle troops around Teo/Osaka around preparing to leave from Const
Osaka has whip-unhappiness and is given a scientist

Turn 6 1100 BC
Kyoto starves and the AI takes the worker off the hill
Up luxes to 30%; K stable and making 3 spt
Whip-unhappiness disappears; fire scientist

Turn 7 1075 BC
Const Dromon -> Dromon
Upgrade warrior to MDI @ Const
Ships start out from Const

Turn 8 1050 BC
Osaka warrior ->warrior
Load boats at Constantinople and set sail following AI pathing; Paris in 10
BTW, the path algo said it was 11 from Const,
10 from where the second boat was and from where I loaded the troops
Ship-chain warrior to Kyoto and set sail following southern route.
Since the path algo doesn’t know about this, it has to be done by hand

Turn 9 1025 BC
Kyoto worker -> worker
Const Dromon -> Dromon
Reduce luxes to 10%

Turn 10 1000 BC
Teo warrior -> duct

The boats out of Constantinople are in coastal waters close to Rome so it's time to make peace.

Edit: cross-post with Wacken re dist from Constantinople to Paris

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Looks like they are to arive in about 8 turns, thats good.

Teoti is size 6 but can't grow without aqua and it will take quite a while to complete that aqua. I suggest to build 1 or 2 workers before starting the aquaduct. This will allow the town to use its food rather than waste it being size 6.

I see you really had your mind set on that library in Teno.

The capital needs a harbor urgently and should start producing workers asap.
I'll look a bit closer now.

Since the FP wont be build in the coming 20 turns at least, i think we should send 4 units rather than 3 and the leader.
We still have a sword and MDI. We have 1 vWarrior and 1 will be ready in 3 turns.
It takes the vWarrior 4 turns to walk to a place where it can be upgraded. It should start walking to Kyoto immeadiately.
Both warriors can be upgraded there in 3 and 4 turns respectively. I think both the sword and MDI should walk there as well. 1 should start moving immeadiately, the other can wait a turn, they will then arive in 4 and 5 turns respectively, just when the upgraded warriors are able to board.

We need 2 boats there in 4 and 5 turns respectively. You probably planned both to come from the capital. We will also need a boat at home to move the workers. So we need a third boat. I already dislike the capital building a boat right now instead of a harbor, and i surely don't like it to build another one. The Library in Teno imo should become a dromon.

 

[Paul#42]

Wow. Perfectly executed.

I like the curves...
okay, culture graph could improve (soon)



edit: Some first glance impressions:
1. Rome offers all his money for peace.
2. The tile S of Const - I'd expect a forest or an irrigation there rather than a mine. Mined grassland is kinda stuck in the middle.
3. Teo would finish his duct before the granary is filled (unless it gets Consti's cow - which it very well could during worker build phase ). However we could also use 1-2 more slaves...
4. Our treasury would allow a couple of embassies. I'd like to monitor some more AI interactions (war, peace, contact...) - some are really available at discount prices
5. How about allying Greece against Iroquois, 5 turns into that get Russia in for a sneak attack?

 

[Abegweit]

Teoti is size 6 but can't grow without aqua and it will take quite a while to complete that aqua. I suggest to build 1 or 2 workers before starting the aquaduct. This will allow the town to use its food rather than waste it being size 6.

As the city comes out of revolt, the time to completion will come down very fast. In three turns it will be making 7spt. Two turns after that it will be at 14 or 15 cpt. The duct should complete in about 15. Seems to me that it is more valuable than a couple of slaves. An alternate choice is to build our 8th dromon there. I would be in favour of this. On the subject of slaves, do we really want another one out of Kyoto? The first one certainly was necessary but do we want two?

I see you really had your mind set on that library in Teno.

It was in the turnlog and save I posted earlier. No one commented. It could be switched to a Longbow, I suppose.

The capital needs a harbor urgently and should start producing workers asap. I'll look a bit closer now.

Doesn't the backup force for France come first? That's what my builds were aimed at. As such, a longbow in Teno would be a good move.

 

[Paul#42]

Since the FP wont be build in the coming 20 turns at least, i think we should send 4 units rather than 3 and the leader.
We still have a sword and MDI. We have 1 vWarrior and 1 will be ready in 3 turns.

Yes, the MGL can wait.
We should get an AC soon - won't that be someone to ship over?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I first had in mind to send the backup force with 2 upgraded warriors, the 2 units we still have and send them by a boat from Teno and one from the capital. However, we also need a third boat for transporting workers.

At this point, there are 2 priorities: bringing 2 more boatloads to paris and starting to produce workers.

We indeed have multiple options now. We can build a boat in Teno or in Teoti.

I agree the slaves we build aren't optimal. We really need workers soon though. If we are not building them here, the capital should start making them right next turn. This may well be the best plan indeed. In this case, both Teno and Teoti should build a dromon now. We will need the lux slider though if we do not build another worker from Kyoto. And in Teoti, if we cut the forests while building the aquaduct, it will have a food surplus and it could regrow the citizen lost for the worker.

The warriors can be upgraded as i just posted before.
The backup force for France doesn't have to be first or last. We should find the way to send that force soon without delaying the core upgrade if possible. The units are no problem, we have them, just the boats.

Peace with Rome may not be needed. No boat can touch us next interturn. They only move 2 tiles in shallow water.
Next turn, we will be in deeper water again. War with Rome still provides us happiness. (how much do they offer us for peace?)

Paul, apearently we don't get any AC's as long as ivory is not connected to kyoto.

 

[Andronicus]

Some comments on French situation

France is strong militarily compared to us, Vikes and Americans are average

Can we be sure there is a land connection between France and Vikes?
France and Vikes are trading (but both have harbours)

Orleans is building Sun Tzu and Paris Leos

Dropping troops from east of Paris allows dromons to retreat back to sea tile, attacking from south does not
Attacking from south allows dromon bombardment to soften up defenders (worse than useless if any galley or curragh in Paris)

A slave dropped on southern tip cannot be reached by defenders in Paris, if it draws out no units I suspect there are only 2 defenders and extra attacker not required, if draws out 1 defender it is as good as an extra attacker, if it draws out more we are ahead (if it draws out 6 units it may just save us a failed attempt)

 

[Andronicus]

Re dromon to ferry workers from Con to Japtec
Another option is to return curragh near Babylon directly to Teot - I make it upgrading to dromon on turn 8. Is this about time workers complete improvements on Con island?