SGOTM 12 - Unusual Suspects

[Yamps]

^

Nothing like a formal PPP to rise objection! I can't tell by heart 100% on Pottery timing...If we use the third worker to build a cottage, Alpha->Agri->Pottery seems too far.

 

[kcd_swede]

Tech path:
argiculture - pottery - alphabet (part)

City Builds:
NJ: warrior-chariot2-settler-worker3
city2 (to be named): library

Micro:
city2 borrows fish from NJ. NJ works grass river instead
when chariot leaves territory, we lose 1gpt, so 1t at 0% research followed by 100% research
Unit actions:
Archer towards De Gaulle
Chariot explores northwest, but with the intention to protect the second city area
Workers finish the pasture and move to the second city spot
Warrior build in capital for garrison, then another chariot to join the archer
Settler build after chariot, third worker after that (with skipping the plains mine, our two workers should be fast enough to get the fallout cleared)
worker1 + worker2 clear and pasture cow in new city, (ivory camp after), worker3 to cottage river grass

Diplo:
gift Sailing to Gandhi asap, sign OB if possible

Goals:
Explore the copper bay for food with the new chariot
Settle new city on the 'GS city' spot, start the library there
Get archer close to De Gaulle/move in (goal is to pillage hill mines and to block copper)

Stopping point:
third worker build, to see what to do with him and to plan other builds

Pause conditions:
Contact with AI units,except Ghandi's or DeGaulle archers.
Somone learns alphabet and peace deals possible
Ghandi already has argi-pottery so further demands from him won't happen.

Other:
Take Demo screenshot at turnset end.
Watch every turn for AI-AI contacts, and note when they occur
Watch for dates of second cities for AI.
Pay attention to the log, and note any occurances.

 

[kcd_swede]

Here, btw, is a test save which reproduces the game status now (I added fallout to the tiles near city2, and I gave us sailing with 1t left to hopefully resync the test with the real save in tech turns (well... when taking into account the 1t shift in everything).

BTW... I'd like to modify the PPP above if you guys are OK with it. We'll need 1t to gain cash for when city2 is founded (we will start losing 1gpt when chariot leaves our territory, and more when city2 is founded).

It is more optimal to take that turn of 0% research NOW, immediately, since the library has 1 t left to build. Thus, we will stay at 100% all the turns of this set which are affected by the library. Elegant, isn't it?

View attachment 268197

 

[Yamps]

city2 borrows fish from NJ. NJ works grass river instead

Ah, that's a in teh plan...There should be sth better instead.

 

[kcd_swede]

Ah, that's a in teh plan...There should be sth better instead.

The build in NJ is a worker. It finishes in 3 turns with the fish, or 5 turns on the grass river. It could be a scientist instead, but worker even slower then.

So the choice is let city2 be stagnant working coastal tile while NJ completes worker, or slow down the worker in NJ. City2 switch to cow when FO cleared, and to fish when grassland cottage done. Sth like that.

Note, one could delay the settling instead, saving the maintenance but not much else. Not good, I think.

Another option is to work the cow in city2 as soon as FO is cleared (2t, I think) and NJ takes back the fish. That's probably best, but only 1f or maybe 2f better than original plan.

Whatever... take the save I posted and see if you notice any better option.

 

[Yamps]

Didn't mean to criticize or anything, but rather to indicate that I completely overlooked it in that draft! It's probably better to develop the second city faster, to get the GS earlier.

------------

Well, let's wait a while for more input from the team...

EDIT:

I've tried it out with your save a bit, that grassland business is marginal. Also, I think you might as well play it to Alphabet. Gandhi won't make any more demands and we're at war with the rest. We should most probably build the 4th worker immediately after the third, you'll now best at that point. Imo, the capital should get the fish back when second city's cows are improved with second city working the lake and cows at size 2. With fish and cows, the city would grow to size 3 before the workers are done with the elephant.

This is green from me. Just keep an open mind while playing, maybe you'll see some opportunity that will demand changing our plans completely! Please wait till tomorrow though, there might be some other ideas till then.

 

[Indiansmoke]

some thoughts....

1. The land is not bad for cottaging but I feel we need economic wonders if we are to pull ahead of competition. TGLH will rule in this map! We let go of Oracle feudalism sling which was perfectly doable IMO and a huge help in developement, lets not rule out TGLH as well.


2. There is a great city spot on teh hill next to the pig by the ai borders. This tile will be available to us until next border pop (cannot calculate now when it will be). So if we don't grab it now we will never get that crusial spot there....maybe we need to think about another settler asap to grab that point...ai culture pop calculation is needed.

3. On micro I am not sure what you are discussing...second city must take over fish...IMo if we have enough time to grab that pig spot then capital must go settler, settler worker.

 

[Yamps]

Ah, here you are!

some thoughts....

1. The land is not bad for cottaging but I feel we need economic wonders if we are to pull ahead of competition. TGLH will rule in this map! We let go of Oracle feudalism sling which was perfectly doable IMO and a huge help in developement, lets not rule out TGLH as well.

2. There is a great city spot on teh hill next to the pig by the ai borders. This tile will be available to us until next border pop (cannot calculate now when it will be). So if we don't grab it now we will never get that crusial spot there....maybe we need to think about another settler asap to grab that point...ai culture pop calculation is needed.

3. On micro I am not sure what you are discussing...second city must take over fish...IMo if we have enough time to grab that pig spot then capital must go settler, settler worker.

No river tiles, low food = bad cottaging map in my book. But when do we build the GLH? We have to go for settling as you've said yourself. Second city south of cows to get the Academy GS asap and third probably to the pigs. We should also cottage the capital and work those tiles instead of the plains mine. GLH is a 3 settler investment (200 hammers -> 300 from Imperialistic), that's huge in this pressed situation. We can get Alpha and Currency fast, making each of these 3 cities instantly profitable; 3 extra cities beat the GLH. We also have to harass De Gaulle asap, otherwise he'll take our land. The idea is to pillage him with chariots, he doesn't have copper connected yet. Hard to build settlers with no improvements!

Regarding the pig spot, kcd_swede mentioned that borders popped a few turns ago. Going there immediately would be a big setback because there's only that rice in the meantime while the pigs are not ours. We shouldn't wait for much longer though, that's a good spot.

Ok, maybe it's best to stop after the third worker after all. I can't tell at this point should we go 4th worker->settler or settler->4th worker. In any case, not much time for the GLH till then! (kcd's set ends with the third worker, ~2 turns till Alphabet) We'll need sth to protect the pig spot, De Gaulle might launch a galley attack across the canal.

About the Sailing gift to Gandhi, if we don't do it now we won't have anything till Currency. If this gift gets us to Cautious, we can sign open borders to start accumulating points from that.

 

[Deckhand]

I agree with everything that has been said.

Spoiler :

No you don't!
Yes I do!
Says who?
Ya gonna make me?
Maybe I will, whacha gonna do about it?

Spoiler :

OK, I just agree with most of what's been said.

Green light from me.
Agree with stopping at 3rd worker. I lean to 2nd settler before 4th worker.
Note that gifting sailing to Gandhi makes it likely he will build the GLH, making him a better trading partner and reducing our chance of taking it by force.
It goes without saying, but don't forget to clear the FO from the city site.
Besides the nice pig hill spot previously discussed, we want to eventually settle the isthmus to prevent DeGaulle from expanding. No hurry if we are harassing him.
Note the post in the maintenance thread. Do we want to find AIs or not? Finding them could resut in conflict. But once we have alphabet, it also gives us the chance to buy peace. So, finding them while we have alphabet and cheap early techs is probably good.

Spoiler :

I usually like to include appropriate smilees,
since none above, here are some. enjoy

 

[kcd_swede]

Here is the game log, lets start with that this time...

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1720 BC to 1200 BC:


Turn 59, 1640 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!
Turn 59, 1640 BC: De Gaulle adopts Slavery!

Turn 62, 1520 BC: You have discovered Pottery!

Turn 63, 1480 BC: Roosevelt adopts Slavery!

Turn 68, 1280 BC: New Jerusalem can hurry Worker for 2? with 41? overflow and +1? for 10 turns.
Turn 68, 1280 BC: Kash Cow Downs has been founded.
Turn 68, 1280 BC: You have plundered 1? from the Mine!
Turn 68, 1280 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 69, 1240 BC: Stalin the Despicable adopts Organized Religion!

OK... I did switch to cow as soon as FO was cleared, so the worker is 1t earlier than would otherwise happen. Means city2 (Kash Cow Downs) will grow to size 2 1 t later, but if its working the pond with that second pop I don't see a big deal there. Hope you agree.

I've uploaded the game, all units moved, but NJ city build has not started (Iput settler2 in queue but it can be changed to worker4 or something else if we decide). Alphabet in 3t.

All AI have founded a second city except Stalin. He must be on an island to explain his high pop but low score. Just a guess... but not totally a wild guess. Mao has settled 2 cities now.

The northwest is big. There are also non-Fallout tiles there, mostly ice and tundra, but I discovered a corn w/o FO. Was tempted to search even farther west for lands end (or new contact), but chickened out noting how much fogged land was near our undefended KCD city, so unfogged that instead. 2moves are possible so he can get back to discovering the west pretty quick.

Since the chariot driver had no balls, the archer decided to make up for that. Walked him up to the doors of Paris and pillaged a mine. Have since moved him to a forest hill in Paris BFC where he can fortify and wait for chariot. Or run the gauntlet again. Anyhow... DG has 2cg archers + 1 drill archer + 1 warrior in Paris at the moment. He had 1cg archer and 1 other archer in the new city, but one I think was escorting the new settler.

DG has slavery but no copper. He has a second settler out and about and will soon have his second city settled as well.

Gave sailing to Ghandi on first turn. No effect (as I kind of anticipated, being such a puny tech). Hopefully he remembers this.

Roosi and Mao got contact in approx t68, and are at peace without OB.

All AI are willing to make peace in exchange for KCD. I do not think its a super idea to accept any of those offers...

I took screenshots of the map and attach them here, but you'll probably need to open the save to get the feel for the whole layout.

Unfoprtunately, the wb east came to a deadend. I think there is one tile off the SE corner of the island that could be defogged that wasn't, but don't know if its worth it. I think it should probably try a route along our SE coastline... the landmass could go further that way.

DG is too far to get by land through all that FO. We can harass him, though, until we settle by that pig, build a galley, and can more practically ferry troops there in a fraction of the time. Preferably before he finds any copper.

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[Indiansmoke]

we pillaged a mine

So we are on track to something, might disagree what that something is but it is looking good regardless.

@Yamps...what do you mean no food??? We have rice that can be irrigated, pig, bannanas, sugar that give +1 food and green tiles...what else do you want for cottaging?

The land north looks OK, at least it will provide us with lots of hapiness and health and we have marble....that is good news indeed, I see great library comming...

 

[Yamps]

Good job there Kcd with pillaging and good exploring as well! Archers FTW! I'm sure that Attacko would love this.

we pillaged a mine

So we are on track to something, might disagree what that something is but it is looking good regardless.

@Yamps...what do you mean no food??? We have rice that can be irrigated, pig, bannanas, sugar that give +1 food and green tiles...what else do you want for cottaging?

The land north looks OK, at least it will provide us with lots of hapiness and health and we have marble....that is good news indeed, I see great library comming...

Ok, chariots revealed some bananas around...but most of these resources are Calendar related, we'll come to that.

-------------

Well, things aren't getting easier to plan. I've had a look on the map, peaces of puzzle only for now.


Next thing to do is to take the Pig spot, French tile control is getting stronger each turn. Here's the dot map:

Spoiler :

The city should go to this spot. It has to get the pigs in its inner ring and it needs the rice to start growing. The city should be our early production center. We could build some wonders there or use it launch an invasion on De Gaulle at some point. Starting builds in this city: monument->galley. Monument to help with culture and galley to pillage the clams. We'll need Mysticism for this. That's okay, we'll need Polytheism too for the GLib.

Note the irrigation problem on the right part of the picture. We can't build the next river cottage for the capital, we need a farm there to get the rice irrigated. If we're not pressed for copper, no need to settle that city before CS imo.

The next city to take is the marble spot. We'll need the marble for Glib, National Epic and I think MoM as well. We'll end the game with a golden age ot two, that would be a useful wonder to take. We need early Calendar as well so it's along the way.

Spoiler :

My first idea was to settle on top of marble, but that would leave the city without production. The purpose of these cities would be to gain the nearby resources and to offer some production, not much else.

We also have to keep exploring the continent. There's more land to the northwest and there's more land in the fog southwest from France. We have to know asap if our continent is good enough for space race alone and also if there's more pre-Astro connection or not.

This means more units. One chariot to explore southwest form France and to help the other one already going there, some garrison for KCD city and new Pig city and maybe also another WB for exploring in the other direction. We can delete the current one in that case when we're done up north, 1gpt is a lot for a 30 hammers wb.

We'll need ~2 workers for each city we are developing. With cottage done, the capital won't need new improvements so that worker can go to the Pig spot.

The GLH would be a nice wonder here, that's true. We could try that trick with some hammers invested and build it somewhat later. We'll need Masonry anyway to get the marble, lighthouse would be useful too for the capital.

Regarding techs, at this point we should finish Alpha and imo gift it for peace to all AI except De Gaulle. That's assuming that they have Writing of course. Judging by my tests, I'd guess not just yet. There's a positive side to that, this means no Math as well. It would be best to give two techs right away to get them to Cautious. Math is on our way to Currency/Calendar and it's also a big tech. Btw, it's important to gift it after the peace is signed, no bonus otherwise! We also need Mysticism and Masonry, to get the monument and few hammers for the GLH. I think it's best to play a few turns now with a stop after Alpha. Never mind updating the save, with big names around I doubt that they are paying much attention on what we are doing. But let's make some effort to change that in the end!

Anyway, there are details to work out here. Deckhand, you're UP for PPP & play! Plunders of war await you! At this point, the idea is to pillage all improvements using that chariot going there. Food first, that will cripple settler production.

EDIT:

Roster:

Indiansmoke: On deck!
Narri
Yamps
The Simple Mind
Kcd_swede: just played!
mjg5591: skipped
Deckhand UP!
krieger546: ?

 

[Deckhand]

Turns 1200BC to when?
Library built or great scientist ready?

Tech path:
alphabet (finish), then what?

City Builds:
NJ: archer (heads to piggy spot), settler (to settle piggy), archer (to garrison KashCow), worker4, worker5
KashCowDowns: library, granary

Micro:
city2 borrows fish from NJ. NJ works grass river cottage(s) instead, time NJ growth with ivory camp/road.

Slider: 100% cash while library being built? Then 100% tech.

Unit actions:
Archer fortifies in forest hill.
Chariot explores along south coast, then west coast, eventually joins archer and together they pillage the corn.

Chariot continues exploring northwest. Homeland is vulnerable. Eventually hope to join archer and chariot bothering the French.
Workboat explores tile 3N of whales; then heads south if chariot revealed any islands to explore, if not delete it.

Worker1 &2 finish the pasture;
then W1 goes to clear FO from pigcity tile, W2clears/builds ivory camps.
Worker 3 finishes cottage, then builds the other NJ cottage.


Diplo:
gift writing and/or alphabet to all AIs except DeGaulle
Likewise get peace and sign OB if possible

Goals:
Harass the French
Don’t lose units
Settle new city on the piggyhill spot

Stopping point:
next build or tech or whatever not in PPP

Pause conditions:
Contact with AI units,except Ghandi's or DeGaulle’s.
Someone learns alphabet and peace deals possible

Other:
Take Demo screenshot at turnset end.
Watch every turn for AI-AI contacts, and note when they occur
Watch for dates of second cities for AI.
Pay attention to the log, and note any occurrences.

Advise regarding Galling Degaulle's Gauls solicited. I think to get peace sooner we don't want to lose units. Is the archer and eventual chariot(s) enough?

PPP is incomplete, question is: what needs to be added/resolved to reach completion?

 

[kcd_swede]

Turns 1200BC to when? probably only to alphabet then pause; or maybe to settled pig city if you feel like the diplo will be straightforward
Library built or great scientist ready? after pause, lets concentrate on the immediate

Tech path:
alphabet (finish), then what? Mysticism... polytheism... Literature... Math... in no particular order...but we'll pause after aplhabet perhaps, IMO

City Builds:
NJ: archer (heads to piggy spot), settler (to settle piggy), archer (to garrison KashCow), worker4, worker5
KashCowDowns: library, granary I might advocate LH instead of granary... we'll be working the pond and the fish, and we might even want to stretch for the GLH?

Micro:
city2 borrows fish from NJ. NJ works grass river cottage(s) instead, time NJ growth with ivory camp/road. Yes, but no point taking the fish before the cottage is built

Slider: 100% cash while library being built? Then 100% tech. 100% tech now...Finish aplhabet in 3t... we need too many techs to get GLib/MoM to stop completely, but we will take the turn(s) 0% research before the second library is built rather than after

Unit actions:
Archer fortifies in forest hill.
Chariot explores along south coast, then west coast, eventually joins archer and together they pillage the corn. I don't know whether exploring or pillaging is the priority... I had thought pillaging. DG could get coper in his 3rd city if we delay too much... in fact, I'd scout that thrid city first, which is kind of exploring, but of France -- settler headed S or SE from DG's second city... if you catch it on flats with only the one archer, might even consider an attack, if the odds look good

Chariot continues exploring northwest. Homeland is vulnerable. Eventually hope to join archer and chariot bothering the French. Out by the corn in the west is where it looks interesting to me. I don't think this chariot gets to any french tiles faster than it would by galley from pig city, so no point moving it the long land way south
Workboat explores tile 3N of whales; then heads south if chariot revealed any islands to explore, if not delete it.

Worker1 &2 finish the pasture;
then W1 goes to clear FO from pigcity tile, W2clears/builds ivory camps.
Worker 3 finishes cottage, then builds the other NJ cottage.
I would use 1&2 to clear/camp/road the ivory, and send 3 to pig city when cottage finishes. But... He needs to be at pig site 6 turns before settler in order to clear FO from the settling spot... keep that in mind.


Diplo:
gift writing and/or alphabet to all AIs except DeGaulle Poor choice of words, maybe... TRADE writing and/or alphabet for peace if you can. I do not think you can gift while at war anyhow. We'll discuss possible post-peace gifts later. Make sure you don't give away any cities though.
Likewise get peace and sign OB if possible

Goals:
Harass the French
Don’t lose units
Settle new city on the piggyhill spot

Stopping point:
next build or tech or whatever not in PPP

Pause conditions:
Contact with AI units,except Ghandi's or DeGaulle’s.
Someone learns alphabet and peace deals possible

Other:
Take Demo screenshot at turnset end.
Watch every turn for AI-AI contacts, and note when they occur
Watch for dates of second cities for AI.
Pay attention to the log, and note any occurrences.

Advise regarding Galling Degaulle's Gauls solicited. I think to get peace sooner we don't want to lose units. Is the archer and eventual chariot(s) enough? Only Paris will have enough archers that the threat of them attacking might occur. Archer should be safe fortified in the forest, though. Note, I am pretty sure Paris whipped from pop5 to pop4 to get archer3 and overflowed to the warrior... he started panicking when I pillaged, perhaps. I did not expect to see any warriors this game.

PPP is incomplete, question is: what needs to be added/resolved to reach completion? Well, basically, the BIG picture is missing. WTH are we doing? To answer that, my opinion is we are in full REX mode, with an eye towards GLib -so marble city after pig... I also first thought of ON the marble, but long term the dot-map is better. I like the idea of GLH, note only the SH is gone, and its turn 70, so that indicates the wonders should be slower than typical. We could probably still grab the GLH if we want it bad enough. But where and when?

 

[Yamps]

On WTH we're doing, it's controlled expansion with an eye on some key economic wonders. Pillaging is important here to slow down De Gaulle and exploration too to determine how pressed are we to grab land. I'll have a look on the details later today.

 

[Indiansmoke]

We need at least another worker before settler.... maybe even 2 in a row if we have time before next culture pop from Degaule.

Also I am not sure about Yamp's north dotmap. It is good to get 3 cities there but they are all crap/semi crap cities. We can get 1 super city by settling west of deer (9 grassland, irrigated rice, deer, marble & silver!) and then get another west for the corn....but that is for next session.

 

[krieger546]

krieger546: ?

Still here!

 

[Yamps]

We need at least another worker before settler.... maybe even 2 in a row if we have time before next culture pop from Degaule.

Also I am not sure about Yamp's north dotmap. It is good to get 3 cities there but they are all crap/semi crap cities. We can get 1 super city by settling west of deer (9 grassland, irrigated rice, deer, marble & silver!) and then get another west for the corn....but that is for next session.

Yes, the northern dot map may need some revision. Your spot suggestion doesn't get the furs though.

Indeed, we're lacking workers. But note that every turn matters for the pigs, it's not just about the next cultural expansion. Each turn a certain amount of French culture is going to that tile. Further cultural expansion would increase that number, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

Still here!

Hehe...and there I was considering a roster skip... Good to know! Feel free to speak up, you're in line after Deckhand in the roster. Open the save and have a look, just remember that no movements are allowed.

 

[Yamps]

Let's play it to Alpha first to see what the AI has. The issue was what to build in the capital. As I see it now, it has to be a worker. Archer->Settler would be too fast for the cottage worker to clear the pig city area and KCD city needs those 2 workers there.

Regarding unit movements, no exploring for our southern chariot. First priority is to pillage that corn. Then to check out De Gaulle's second city and to pillage there as well. Kcd, did you see any French workers around? Our chariot is safe on a hill there but not causing trouble either. We should be all right on hills and forests, maybe there's sth to do near Orleans.

Northwestern chariot should explore more to the west, with wb going up north. After that, wb down the coast towards France if we don't build another one instead.

Not much for these 3 turns, KCD workers finish the cow and move to the elephant while the third one finishes the cottage. The idea is to move that worker towards the pig spot, along with the 4th one from capital.

-------------

kcd_swede, you could just finish this 3 turns to keep us going before all the plans are done for the next session, it's just a small continuation. (Or Deckhand, whoever is earlier online and feeling comfortable about it!)

 

[Deckhand]

Let's play it to Alpha first to see what the AI has. The issue was what to build in the capital. As I see it now, it has to be a worker. Archer->Settler would be too fast for the cottage worker to clear the pig city area and KCD city needs those 2 workers there.

Regarding unit movements, no exploring for our southern chariot. First priority is to pillage that corn. Then to check out De Gaulle's second city and to pillage there as well. Kcd, did you see any French workers around? Our archer is safe on a hill there but not causing trouble either. We should be all right on hills and forests, maybe there's sth to do near Orleans.

Northwestern chariot should explore more to the west, with wb going up north. After that, wb down the coast towards France if we don't build another one instead.

Not much for these 3 turns, KCD workers finish the cow and move to the elephant while the third one finishes the cottage. The idea is to move that worker towards the pig spot, along with the 4th one from capital.

-------------

kcd_swede, you could just finish this 3 turns to keep us going before all the plans are done for the next session, it's just a small continuation. (Or Deckhand, whoever is earlier online and feeling comfortable about it!)

^ I agree.
kcd - please play to alphabet "tonight" If you don't get to it before you go to bed, then I will do so before I go to bed (i.e. morning for you).

Yamps, you summarized most of what I had in a draft response to comments above. I probably won't post it now.