SGOTM 12 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Looks pretty close to me.

I think CP raises an interesting idea. That is focusing on attacking De Gaulle early. To do this, we would need Construction and Cats and HBR for War Elephants. This implies Masonry as well as it is needed for Construction.

As we are headed for Civil Service anyway, should we get the Oracle and not have CoL's, does it make sense to take Construction as a free tech and then self-research CS, after HBR? The gold taken from grabbing France's capital can't hurt our research efforts, depending upon how many cities and units France has. I wonder if it would be worth putting all our Espionage points towards France as we know they are our continental rival? If we decide to go for France, we should watch what we give up to them for tech and when we make peace, if we make peace, so as not to delay invasion?

The question is what do we gain versus what is lost? In the short term, we will lose some tech speed and we will have deviated from any beeline. We may gain long term from the benefits of more cities and less AI involvement on our continent, so greater tech gain in future?

I'm not entirely sure how to weigh these factors to come to some conclusion. Any ideas??

 

[The-Hawk]

Weekend is almost here and I will have some time. I'll get my head back into the situation on Saturday. Let me know if there is anything you would like me to test.

 

[zamint3]

. Last test save I saw posted was Leif's in post #239. Is there another one available, maybe replayed up to current point? Zamint?

I have a test save where I replayed Griffs turns the best I could with Leif's save. As mentioned earlier I could not get the horses to bring two hammers in our capital, and the AI do not have the -2 "You nuked us" modifier, that must be why I was able to trade more easily with Gandhi.

In this test save Gandhi all ready has Priesthood at T55 , but in the fast forward tests I played he did not start the Oracle earlier than T86

 

[Conquistador 63]

Weekend is almost here and I will have some time. I'll get my head back into the situation on Saturday. Let me know if there is anything you would like me to test.

Maybe it is asking too much, but I'd like to be given directions about tile usage and worker management for the earliest Oracle CS possible.

As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I suck at building and playing test maps - in my solo games, I almost always play by instinct and don't care to optimize these moves too much, which is certainly not desirable in a SG.

 

[The-Hawk]

Yesterday turned out to be busier than I thought. Spending some time now. I too am not a worldbuilder user, but will try to recreate the map to the end of Z's turn. No promises though!!!

 

[The-Hawk]

OK, I give up .

I tried taking Z's last save and upgrading the terrain (no problems here). However, I can't get it to the end state of his turn. I don't think I can replay his turns. Not enough information and the starting point (Z's test) already varies from the actual game. But more important, since his capital has lost a hammer in the city center, I don't see how we can have a meaningful comparison of different MM options to get to Oracle.

I'm almost tempted to try to recreate the whole game to this point (so we get the hammer), but honestly, I don't think the view is worth the climb. I don't know if there is capability in worldbuilder to take a blank map (with known terrain) and recreate the final situation without recreating the turns. If there is, its beyond my skills.

 

[The-Hawk]

Played around some more. The way to get the extra hammer in Moscow is to make it a plains tile. Not sure this helps though since Z's last test game was missing it for quite a while (therefore is behind).

This is as close as I could come... if someone knows how to put beakers into the tech in progress and hammers into the settler in progress, this could work.

View attachment Test - end of Zamint3 turn.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[leif erikson]

I'm almost tempted to try to recreate the whole game to this point (so we get the hammer), but honestly, I don't think the view is worth the climb. I don't know if there is capability in worldbuilder to take a blank map (with known terrain) and recreate the final situation without recreating the turns. If there is, its beyond my skills.

I think the hammer is missing because I screwed up in making the original save and forgot to put Horses under the capital. Let me take the save you posted and see if I can fix it quick.

 

[leif erikson]

Well, I was wrong. The Horse is there. What is more interesting is that there seems to be a Palace in St. Pete as well as in Moscow?

I'll try to have a closer look this evening.

 

[zamint3]

Well, I was wrong. The Horse is there.

Yes but it's on a grass tile - can't believe I missed that...

I'll be away traveling until Friday, good luck playing!

 

[The-Hawk]

Well, I was wrong. The Horse is there. What is more interesting is that there seems to be a Palace in St. Pete as well as in Moscow?

I'll try to have a closer look this evening.

Whoops.

Z's test had whip unhappiness in Moscow. I got rid of it by deleting Moscow and then rebuilding it. Had to add the palace back in via Worldbuilder, but forgot to delete it from St. Pete.

I've fixed the hammer situation under Moscow by making it a plains tile. The only problem is Myst has no beakers (should have 47 of 78) and the settler in Moscow has no hammers (should have 46 of 100). If you can find a way to get these numbers right in WB, the test save would be much better.

Here is a corrected version (deleted 2nd palace).

View attachment Test - end of Zamint3 turn v2.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[leif erikson]

Whoops.

I've fixed the hammer situation under Moscow by making it a plains tile. The only problem is Myst has no beakers (should have 47 of 78) and the settler in Moscow has no hammers (should have 46 of 100). If you can find a way to get these numbers right in WB, the test save would be much better.

Here is a corrected version (deleted 2nd palace).

I'll have a look a bit later. No sure this can be done.

By the time this save looks at all like it should, the game will be over...

Just found out I have to go out for a while this evening,
wife's orders.

 

[The-Hawk]

I've done some thinking about city placement. I would like to propose the following for REX targets.

City 4, 5, 7:



City 6:



City 4: A strong production city with access to the coast for attacking France. On a river for health while we clear fallout. Five hills for mines and plenty of food to support them. I would turn this into our unit spam city and launching point for war with France.

City 5: Great Person factory. Again, on a small river for health. Pigs, rice and fish for plenty of Great People points.

City 6: Marble city and commerce. On a river for health. Wine and beaver for quick commerce and several river tiles for cottages. Does not need to be on coast since city 4 can stage our invasion.

City 7: Exact placement depends on what is under FOW. This city would primarily be cottages.

My main reasons for sliding Marble city lower in the queue:

1. Race France for the southern city sites.
2. Marble probably not needed for Oracle
3. Wine not available yet.

 

[The-Hawk]

Some more random thoughts:

Moscow needs a warrior pretty quickly or it will go unhappy.

I noticed that DeGaulle has a trade option for "Adopt Barbarism". Doesn't this infer he is on an advanced legal civic? I.e. he either has:

1. Feudalism and is running Vassalage
2. Civil Service and is running Bureaucracy
3. Nationalism and is running Nationhood
4. Liberalism and is running Free Speech

Similar for Mao. He has an option to "Adopt Decentralization" which infers he is on an advanced Economy civic. I.e.:

1. Banking and is running Mercantilism
2. Economics and is running Free Market
3. Communism and is running State Property
4. Medicine and is running Environmentalism

Did we see notices for them adopting these civics at the start? Maybe this is old news ?


EDIT:



Or I could look at the info screen. Roosevelt has Constitution and is running Representation, Mao has Communism and is running State Property, and DeGaulle has Nationalism and is running Nationhood.

Communism: Hmmm... with them all at war with us, we could see some permanent alliances. I think that would suck.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I've done some thinking about city placement. I would like to propose the following for REX targets. Like the sites, but think Paris should be our fifth or sixth city.

My main reasons for sliding Marble city lower in the queue:

1. Race France for the southern city sites. Makes sense.
2. Marble probably not needed for Oracle ?
3. Wine not available yet. True.

Generally reluctant for Oracle without marble on a high level because there is such a price to pay if you fail: hammers turned to gold at only 1 to 1 and nothing useful produced in the city for extended period, not to mention usual issue of needing to research techs you can usually trade for later. What is the plan for a non-marble Oracle -- forests chopped when, turn built, tech chosen, etc.?

Have played BTS very little. Can someone provide some insight into how much France's use of Nationhood will affect play, particularly defense of capital?

 

[Mad Professor]

Or I could look at the info screen. Roosevelt has Constitution and is running Representation, Mao has Communism and is running State Property, and DeGaulle has Nationalism and is running Nationhood.

Communism: Hmmm... with them all at war with us, we could see some permanent alliances. I think that would suck.

That all happened about turn two in my turnset. Obviously they were given those techs by the mapmaker at the beginning of the game and adopted those civics ASAP.

 

[leif erikson]

We need to try to get this game moving forward.

I think I am reading that there are two objectives that we would like to try to meet?
1. Oracle for early CS or, if CS is unavailable, perhaps Construction or HBR?
2. Early attack of De Gaulle.

The conflict between these objectives seems to lie with how we use chops. Do we use them to complete Oracle quickly or do we use them to build an Army to take on De Gaulle?

In addition, C63 has requested assistance with Worker assignments to achieve Oracle as quickly as possible. As I have not played the test game that far, I was wondering if some of you who have can help with this?

If you can find time, we really need to get this sorted out.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Oracle is probably quickest way to Construction, which will be needed to take on France, so don't see the conflict exactly as leif does. Probably makes sense to proceed toward Oracle, but not to commit to it yet.


Chops should be held until completing Oracle looks almost certain. (Can and should pre-chop, of course.)
Construction before HBR, as we can build cats while HBR is researched, if we go that route.

Question is whether to found a marble city next. Not clear to me, and I have no time to test -- leaving soon, not to return until 10/31 -- so can't complain about which path is chosen or how workers are employed.

 

[Grifftavian]

I made a few improvements to Hawk's test save from post #311...

• added missing Worker 2 on same tile as Worker 1 (1 NW of Cows)
• gave De Gaulle Nationalism & Nationhood Civic
• gave Roosevelt Constitution & Representation Civic
• gave Mao Communism & State Property Civic
• gave Gandhi Mathematics & put us at Peace with each other
• added Whale resource 2N of our Fishing nets near Moscow
• added in a few City Ruins from what I could remember of the actual save

I haven't tried playing it yet, but I think this test save will be better for trying out Worker improvements, since the other save was missing a Worker.

 

[Grifftavian]

A few more improvements to the test game...

I used World Builder to add in some trees & Workers around Moscow & St. Petersburg, then had the added Workers chop the trees, and deleted the added workers. As a result, production in Moscow and St. Petersburg now nearly matches the actual competition save game, i.e., Moscow produces a Settler in 7 turns, and St. Petersburg produces a Worker in 1 turn.

It's not exact, because the in competition save, we could whip the Settler in Moscow for 2 population, but we can't whip in the test save (maybe on the next turn ). However, I don't think there is a need to whip the Settler right now, as the Workers have just started scrubbing the City #3 site.

EDIT: Also, the research and treasury are off just a little from the competition save.