SGOTM 12 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

If Churchill's stack beelines for us, we have about 10 to 12 turns before he arrives in any of our territory. Not sure he would know how to get to us, but who knows what the AI will do. Close to Alphabet coming in. As soon as Copper hooked, think we should start Axes immediately, even if Chariot isn't finished.

Great Scientist => Academy. Agree with working Cows, we should get growth in two turns and get a GS 6 or 7 turns later.

Once Copper is available and Novgorod is getting close to size 4, may want to put in an Axe for a turn in case we need to pop-rush him? may be able to do this for Rostov if enough pop is available. Really shouldn't whip units unless we need them badly, like a nice big stack coming our way.

May want to move the Chariot SW of St. Petersburg to the hill NE of the Sugar to watch for any incoming menace.

Confucian Missionary to Moscow for +1 happiness. All the more reason to get Cow SE of Moscow scrubbed and pastured.

Do we want to gift CoL's to Gandhi? Only problem is, what can we trade him after that, CS? Do we want to do that?

 

[Grifftavian]

My comments in Maroon.

Approximately 15 turns, it will in actuality probably be less as science will increase over time.

Goal is Alphabet, currently 15 turns @50% Science, will use binary strategy throughout turnset.

We are actually pretty good on workers right now, I missed the stacked pair at first glance.


Moscow
Builds = Chariot>Axe>Axe>Axe>Axe ... option would be to insert a barracks before completing any/some of the troops.
Barracks may be a good idea, if it doesn't delay getting troops out too much. Perhaps change to Barracks and whip for 2 pop when able? Overflow might complete the Chariot on the next turn.
Wk#7 is 3 west of Moscow on a desert tile. Was there a plan for him? That tile can't be worked, do we want a road there?, or can he go straight to the cows east of Moscow?
Not sure if there was a plan for this worker. Scrubbing & Pasturing the Cows east of Moscow is OK by me, if you think Moscow will grow large enough to work them.
I want to work the pastured cows here to grow quicker. 2nd gold worked by St Petes for a bit.
New pop is assigned as scientist, 2nd new pop goes to gold.
Don't forget we can revolt to Bureaucracy for 1 turn of Anarchy. IMO, it would be better to work both Gold in the Bureaucratic Capitol. You might even consider reassigning the scientist to the Cow Pasture for the extra food & hammers, and letting the next two new citizens become Scientists.
Do we want to settle the first GS or build academy 1st?
IMO, build Academy first.

St Petes
Builds = Granary>Library If enemy gets too close, build Chariot or Axe.
Wk#5 hooks copper>to rice OK
Wk#3 scrub>farm rice OK

Novgorod
Builds = Granary>Library If enemy gets too close, build Chariot or Axe.
Wk#6 finish silver mine>Elephants OK

Rostov
Builds = Granary>Library OK
Wk#2 finishes furs>go to Novgorod Eles OK
Wk#1+4 finish deer>Rice OK
Missionary heads for Moscow??? Moscow may need him in order to build a Temple for happiness at some point. Other option I see is to send Missionary to St. Pete, build Temple there & run a Priest specialist to add to the GProphet points from The Oracle.

New pop in all cities work best available tile with preference towards best improved food tiles. Exception is second scientist in Moscow. Consider whipping those Granaries and Libraries to get them online sooner.

Worker turns described won't take entire set, best available tile will lead worker turns after those described. OK

Scouting warrior in north finishes job then heads to Rostov to MP Looks like polar ice cap up there. No goody huts or barbarians in this game, I say send him to Rostov right away, in case De Gaulle gets any ideas, and we can finish exploration up north later.

Scouting chariots in south/west try to stay alive and scout/shadow troop movements. OK, good luck!

STOP ORDERS??? A big new stack of enemy units shows up. France drops units from sea in endangered zone to north west.


I can play later today, 10-12 hours, or Monday. I will be gone Friday/Saturday/Sunday.

EDIT: I don't think we should convert to Confucianism at this point. It would make it harder to get Peace Treaties with AI Civs who have adopted a religion.

 

[Grifftavian]

Do we want to gift CoL's to Gandhi? Only problem is, what can we trade him after that, CS? Do we want to do that?

I wouldn't gift COL to Gandhi at this point. IMO, wait until we have Alphabet and can (hopefully) make some peace treaties, then see if we can get any other tech trades with the Civs we have made peace with. Maybe we'll pick up something Gandhi is willing to trade for.

 

[leif erikson]

I wouldn't gift COL to Gandhi at this point. IMO, wait until we have Alphabet and can (hopefully) make some peace treaties, then see if we can get any other tech trades with the Civs we have made peace with. Maybe we'll pick up something Gandhi is willing to trade for.

I do understand your point, that Gandhi will probably trade it away as the tech broker.


At Emperor, Gandhi may have CoL's before we can get Alphabet and then we lose out on the positive diplo that, hopefully, gets him to trade? We could wait some, but I do not think we should wait until Alpha?

 

[zamint3]

We did gift Gandhi AH with no effect, I don't know if CoL will make a difference!?
Bureaucracy will get us Alphabet a little faster.
We don't have Agriculture so we can't farm the rice maybe we should squeeze it in?
Agree with academy asap.

Good luck!

 

[Frederiksberg]

You can only get to +4 diplo points for fair trade (=gifting techs ).

Academy is certainly the best use for the GS. I suggest to set science slider to 0% for 5-6 turns so that we can run at 100% slider for a while when the GS is born 8 (?) turns from now and get more from the Academy. This may also give us Alpha earlier.

I guess that France is our target for the next war (haven't seen any saves ) so I suggest we make peace with all other AI except France ASAP. It would be a scoop to get peace with Churchill rather than having to waste our axes in a defensive war against his stack. We need these axes to help capture French cities!

One caution about whipping: While it's very strong to whip settlers and workers (because cities don't grow when building those and food is converted to hammers at 1:1 ratio only) this is not the case when it comes to units and buildings. So please consider carefully if we really need to speed up the build time before whipping any building or military unit. The lost production from the citizens that are whipped away does make a considerable difference in these cases.

It's usually not good to spend hammers on temples unless you are going after a cultural victory. The extra happy face isn't worth all the hammers spent.

 

[Ronnie1]

Revolt to Bureaucracy immediately!!!

IE: Whipping
I am a firm believer that IF you need to whip, it is really critical to set up good 2 pop whip situations, or 3,4,5 whatever. You have to get close to max overflows to make it very useful. If you can whip or overflow into buildings that you get modifiers for that helps tremendously also. As Cathy, I believe we get 100% on Libraries, which means over flowing 40+ hammers from a 2 pop granary whip gets us 80+ of the hammers required for a 120 hammer Library.

I think we need Agriculture before Alphabet, food is king, it has to be done IMO!

I won't be playing before Monday now at the earliest, so we have plenty of time to sort out the options.

 

[The-Hawk]

Sorry, played my turnset, then RL stepped right back in!

Approximately 15 turns, it will in actuality probably be less as science will increase over time.

Goal is Alphabet, currently 15 turns @50% Science, will use binary strategy throughout turnset. Yes, Alpha before Constr for sure, although I think the idea of Agri first is good. That area to the SW is like grand central station, units from several AI's all over the place. If we are still at war with Churchill and Mao when we try to capture deGaulle cities, we risk out stacks bumping into hostiles all over the place. Also, it would be much better if we do not burn units defending from a steady stream of stacks. We need peace asap. I would make peace with deGaulle too. I am a little worried he will drop some units up by marble city with a galley.

We are actually pretty good on workers right now, I missed the stacked pair at first glance. Yes, finished 4 on my turnset, should have 7 now.


Moscow
Builds = Chariot>Axe>Axe>Axe>Axe ... option would be to insert a barracks before completing any/some of the troops. I like barracks given we will be building a lot of units. We need to get one or two to medic status quickly. However, if we MM Moscow to get a GS, then barracks will take around 8 turns. I don't think there is time. I would skip it.

Wk#7 is 3 west of Moscow on a desert tile. Was there a plan for him? That tile can't be worked, do we want a road there?, or can he go straight to the cows east of Moscow?

This question warrants some discussion . I think we should still be in rex mode. Cities 5 (the prod city by the pigs) and 6 (the GP farm) are very good sites and I believe should be built before we go after deGaulle. City 5 can specialize in production, therefore, take over the burden of building units so that Moscow can build important buildings when they are needed (e.g. University). Taking the heart of deGaulle's empire will be easier if we can send galleys over from city 5. City 6 looks like the best GP farm in our area and we need one since we are in a space race. With the scrub issue, we need to be prepping sites way in advance of settling them. My intent for W7 was to start roading SW towards city site #5, then scrub. We need a road to connect it. A road also speeds our armies towards deGaulle. I think we are looking at 22 turns to road and scrub site 5. While Moscow is spamming axes, worker 7 is prepping city 5. Once we have 3-4 axes and Moscow's pop grows out, we slot in a settler and the axes escort him to site 5.

I want to work the pastured cows here to grow quicker.

2nd gold worked by St Petes for a bit.
New pop is assigned as scientist, 2nd new pop goes to gold. Ouch! Hard to abandon the gold in our Bureau capital, but I think you are right. My only suggestion here... next pop is a scientist as you say. However, as soon as we get the GS, then the 2nd scientist moves back to the gold. By then, St. Pete will want to work the rice to start growing out anyhow. When Moscow pop grows out a 2nd time, we make that guy a scientist. Make sense?

Do we want to settle the first GS or build academy 1st? Academy

St Petes
Builds = Granary>Library
Wk#5 hooks copper>to rice
Wk#3 scrub>farm rice

Novgorod
Builds = Granary>Library
Wk#6 finish silver mine>Elephants

Rostov
Builds = Granary>Library
Wk#2 finishes furs>go to Novgorod Eles
Wk#1+4 finish deer>Rice
Missionary heads for Moscow???

New pop in all cities work best available tile with preference towards best improved food tiles. Exception is second scientist in Moscow.

Worker turns described won't take entire set, best available tile will lead worker turns after those described.

Scouting warrior in north finishes job then heads to Rostov to MP

Scouting chariots in south/west try to stay alive and scout/shadow troop movements.

STOP ORDERS??? A big new stack of enemy units shows up. France drops units from sea in endangered zone to north west.


I can play later today, 10-12 hours, or Monday. I will be gone Friday/Saturday/Sunday.

 

[The-Hawk]

12345

if churchill's stack beelines for us, we have about 10 to 12 turns before he arrives in any of our territory. Not sure he would know how to get to us, but who knows what the ai will do. Close to alphabet coming in. As soon as copper hooked, think we should start axes immediately, even if chariot isn't finished.

Great scientist => academy. Agree with working cows, we should get growth in two turns and get a gs 6 or 7 turns later.

Once copper is available and novgorod is getting close to size 4, may want to put in an axe for a turn in case we need to pop-rush him? May be able to do this for rostov if enough pop is available. Really shouldn't whip units unless we need them badly, like a nice big stack coming our way. great idea. Just need to watch for hammer decay... At some point, will need to finish them.

may want to move the chariot sw of st. Petersburg to the hill ne of the sugar to watch for any incoming menace. yes, this guy's short term mission was to give us a look under that last bit of fow. Mission accomplished, now he can go elsewhere. Just be careful, with the fallout, chariots are 1 tile movers. Need to get him on a hill and let him stand pat. If he keeps heading sw and bumps into the churchill stack, he can't retreat and a spear will get him. By the way, the second banana is a nice find. A city right where the chariot is now looks pretty promising.

confucian missionary to moscow for +1 happiness. All the more reason to get cow se of moscow scrubbed and pastured.

Do we want to gift col's to gandhi? Only problem is, what can we trade him after that, cs? Do we want to do that?

looks like polar ice cap up there. No goody huts or barbarians in this game, i say send him to rostov right away, in case de gaulle gets any ideas, and we can finish exploration up north later. yes, good idea.

academy is certainly the best use for the gs. I suggest to set science slider to 0% for 5-6 turns so that we can run at 100% slider for a while when the gs is born 8 (?) turns from now and get more from the academy. This may also give us alpha earlier. nice! I like it.

I guess that france is our target for the next war (haven't seen any saves ) so i suggest we make peace with all other ai except france asap. It would be a scoop to get peace with churchill rather than having to waste our axes in a defensive war against his stack. We need these axes to help capture french cities! i would make peace with de gaulle asap. While we are researching contruction for cats, our peace treaty will expire. In the mean time, we don't need him dropping any units on us.

one caution about whipping: While it's very strong to whip settlers and workers (because cities don't grow when building those and food is converted to hammers at 1:1 ratio only) this is not the case when it comes to units and buildings. So please consider carefully if we really need to speed up the build time before whipping any building or military unit. The lost production from the citizens that are whipped away does make a considerable difference in these cases. i tend to whip granaries. I've always assumed the saved food from the granary warrants the pop loss. And ronnie raises an interesting point about overflowing into the libs. But, i am not clear on the math, thoughts on this?

it's usually not good to spend hammers on temples unless you are going after a cultural victory. The extra happy face isn't worth all the hammers spent. agree .

 

[Frederiksberg]

Whipping should always be for 2 or more pop to better handle happy cap issues as Ronnie says. I don't know of any situations where overflow is important except when the overflow is applied to wonders. This is because whipping a wonder directly is very expensive due to a 50% penalty on hammers. A building with hammer multipliers will get those multipliers no matter how the base hammers are obtained - be it from whip overflow or any other source. I think that Hawk's intuition regarding whipping granaries is correct in most cases - perhaps with the exception of very hammer rich cities.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I should take long absences more often. An accumulation of insights evident in the discussion (the SGOTM ideal) and then an extremely effective turn set by The Hawk. Much better off now than when I left.

Should be able to look at save tomorrow. (Is it posted at Central?) From reading thread, some thoughts:
Plan for next turn set keeps getting better but more detailed. Might make sense to post a revised plan before playing.
Fewer axes built the better, unless necessary. Swords, cats, WE's will be more useful for aggression. (Starting axes for one turn to whip in an emergency makes sense.)
Not sure how much revolting to a religion will influence trading, but should probably delay revolt if it's likely to be significant. Does someone know the numbers on that?
How sure are we that we will be able to trade Alpha for peace with everyone?
Strongly agree with Hawk that roads need to be built.

 

[Ronnie1]

After looking at the save again and going through some of the numbers, I have a few concerns that I believe need to be addressed. I do think or growth rate is going to out pace our ability to keep tiles improved, at least in the next 12-15 turns everywhere except St Petes.

Specifically in Novgorod, this is what I propose. It has 28/60 hammers of Granary. I want to switch to a Library now and grow to size 4, that will take 9 turns, then put in 1-2 more turns to put some food back in the bin, then whip the granary for 2 pop on turn 10 or 11, overflow will finish the library the next turn, and then we can start either more workers/settlers or troops depending on what we are facing. A good mid set pause point maybe.

I have a question about Moscow, is the plan to cottage all the flat ground there? If so, that needs to begin very soon, we will need tiles to work here shortly when we dismiss the scientists. Also, are we worried about the rice at St Petes never getting irrigated if we cottage all the riverside here?

Similar question about St Petes, what is it long term? It looks like a hammer city to me, food, hills, only 1 cottage site after Moscow takes everything to its north. It will need mines on the hills and be a solid producer IMO. I want to switch to a Library here for a few reasons now. We can double our overflow from the Oracle build and complete the Library before we go back to 100% science. This city is not growing very quickly, so the granary 1st isn't as critical.

I don't think we have time for a barracks in Moscow, it is the 1 city we really don't want to whip until we are totally up against the cap. We need to get a few axes moved south to try and meet Churchill in a good defensive position IMO. I think it gives us the best chance of taking few losses.

The GS will arrive in 9 turns and build academy in Moscow. I will run 0% science for as long as I can waiting for the academy, but will go 100% for 1 turn when I need to start building rice farms.

Agriculture will add 4 turns to the turnset.

The chariot in the SE I will bring back to the hill NE of the N sugar, that will give the best view.

The chariot in the SW is the one I am not quite sure how I want to handle. When exactly was Churchill's stack on the hill 3E of our current position?

I think mid set pause when we know with more certainty where Churchill's stack is headed might be prudent.

I would like some clarity on city sites 5 and 6 also....where did the dot maps go???? I can't find them

 

[leif erikson]

Here are the dot maps, though they are from the test game.

I'll try to make up some from the real save a bit later today.

Why would we want to fire the Scientists in Moscow, except to grow. We are in a Space Race and need all the beakers we can get, and all the GS's we can get.

Agree on pauses, whenever you feel you need one, that is fine.

Need to look at the save for other issues.

 

[Ronnie1]

Why would we want to fire the Scientists in Moscow, except to grow. We are in a Space Race and need all the beakers we can get, and all the GS's we can get.

To grow yes, and to work cottages if they are available. Cottages are better long term are they not?

 

[Frederiksberg]

A strong Bureaucracy Capital needs high pop and lots of cottages. This is because Bureaucracy multiplies gold from cottages by 1.5 while it has no effect on scientist beakers. Better try to set up a dedicated GP farm somewhere soon.

 

[Grifftavian]

Here are the dot-maps of the proposed cities on the actual save. Note that the city 5 site (production city) has about one third of its tiles already in France's cultural borders; Paris must be just across the water in the unrevealed tiles. Another reason to capture Paris? It appears to me that Cities 5 & 6 also make pretty good choke points.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Looked at save and note:

Chariot 2 needs to move SE onto bananas to see if there is land out in the ocean. (After peace, we need to do that near copper as well.) Then suggest we position that chariot to monitor British stack and perhaps get them to chase (even sacrificing) and allow us to get Alpha before we have to build and risk loosing multiple axes.

With Bureaucracy and moving citizen from clams to cows, we can get a barracks quickly in Moscow. Would prefer barracks now, together with worker 7 moving to forest between golds to pre-chop (in case if we do need axes ASAP) and road.

Prefer overflow in St. P going into yet another worker, which will have plenty to do farming rice, pasturing cows, cottaging Moscow, etc.. Neither library nor granary (until rice is farmed or cows patured) are much use there now. (Not sure library will ever be needed there, since looks like a production city. Better barracks than lib.)

Suggest worker 2 complete camp on furs and then move NE to chop forest to complete granary in time to take advantage of growth from deer.

Suggest worker 6 finish silver mine and then move to ivory.

Perhaps chariot 1 moves east to see if British stack is on hill as Hawk thinks likely. If stack turns toward chariot, we may loose it, but will delay the threat significantly. If stack does not turn, then perhaps move chariot SE and then NE onto hill.

 

[Ronnie1]

(Not sure library will ever be needed there, since looks like a production city. Better barracks than lib.)

My reasoning to build a Library here was that we need 6 for OxU and it can be done in time to utilize the gold while it has it. I could be totally swayed into another worker however, it will be hard to have too many workers in this game.

With Bureaucracy and moving citizen from clams to cows, we can get a barracks quickly in Moscow. Would prefer barracks now, together with worker 7 moving to forest between golds to pre-chop (in case if we do need axes ASAP) and road.

But we want to grow this ASAP also, and produce a quick GS....my plan here was to work max food with 1 scientist now, growing in 2 turns, then work 2 scientists until the GS is born in 7 additional turns. When Moscow grows to size 7, both gold mines go back to Moscow. After the GS, we need to start working cottages.

Suggest worker 2 complete camp on furs and then move NE to chop forest to complete granary in time to take advantage of growth from deer.

This is a good plan and I will incorporate it.

Suggest worker 6 finish silver mine and then move to ivory.

Already in the plan.

Perhaps chariot 1 moves east to see if British stack is on hill as Hawk thinks likely. If stack turns toward chariot, we may loose it, but will delay the threat significantly. If stack does not turn, then perhaps move chariot SE and then NE onto hill.

Yes, this is what I was thinking. I would like to keep an eye on the stack as much as possible. What if they "know" exactly where we are and head straight in? Where do we try to make a defensive stand?

 

[Cactus Pete]

My reasoning to build a Library here was that we need 6 for OxU and it can be done in time to utilize the gold while it has it. I could be totally swayed into another worker however, it will be hard to have too many workers in this game. Reasonable position, but think worker has greater immediate benefit and can build lib later for Oxford if needed there.

But we want to grow this ASAP also, and produce a quick GS....my plan here was to work max food (? cow provides same food as clams) with 1 scientist now, growing in 2 turns, then work 2 scientists until the GS is born in 7 additional turns. In 2 turns, we can work 2 scientists and the cows if we move a citizen now on gold to a specialist, as I thought was your plan. When Moscow grows to size 7, both gold mines go back to Moscow. After the GS, we need to start working cottages. Doubt we'll have cottages by then. Probably need to improve cows and rice and possibly pre-chop some forests before building them.

Yes, this is what I was thinking. I would like to keep an eye on the stack as much as possible. What if they "know" exactly where we are and head straight in? Where do we try to make a defensive stand?

Hoping we can distract with chariots and even offer one as a sacrifice to delay their approach to our cities. Let's see how the stack moves before deciding whether, much less where, we need to make a stand.

BTW, will revolting to a religion make any difference in trading, given we are likely to be everyone's worse enemy for a while?

 

[Ronnie1]

(? cow provides same food as clams)

I was planning on using BOTH Clams and Cows, + Fish + 1 gold mine + 1 scientist @ size 5. In 2 turns we grow to size 6 and add 2nd scientist. At size 6 we will be +3 food and grow to size 7 in 6 turns. At size 7 I was planning on taking the gold mine back from St Petes, but then we will only be +1 food if we still run 2 scientists. I guess we really do need more workers to keep up. Worker next in St Petes for sure then, but I was planning on working the gold mine here which slows him down a bit. Thoughts?