SGOTM 12 - Xteam

[Mad Professor]

Tried testing NNE this morning. It is certainly slower going initially, but there is a catch up, and I would encourage MP to take that approach, chopping a wkbt and whipping a settler as soon as pop4 allows.

I wonder if we can credit the map designer with deliberately making this choice so difficult?

Also thinking that putting all our espionage points towards Stalin may be wise.

Probably, but it will be interesting to see who is really near us. Seems logical that it would be Stalin...

In playing the test save, Stalin did not go after my scout with an archer that seemed to be available for the task. Is this a function of the game prohibiting such AI action very early on?

When I was playing, Stalin seemed rather hesitant to engage in any chase outside his cultural borders also. Could be just one of those dumb AI things, but perhaps we shouldn't count on it.

Does Stalin have nukes in the test save that could have been directed at the scout? Can we test whether we can induce Stalin to nuke our cheap units and thereby get rid of any nukes he is initially holding? Also, anyone know if the AI will nuke a foreign unit within its own cultural borders?

In the test, Stalin definitely has about 4 tac nukes. He will use them if he can get them within range of a city, or a tile next to a city. It seems not otherwise. Nuking within your own cultural borders is possible, but I can't comment on the AI's propensity to do it.

 

[Mad Professor]

To date I mostly focused on maximizing settlers and workers just to test the start location but agree we will need to explore in the game. I have a ton of time this weekend should be able to test some more.

That would be good. I don't have much time this weekend, but evenings this coming week are looking fairly free so far. Any more testing you or anyone else can do this weekend would be helpful. How about I aim to put up a plan Monday and play the turns in the couple of days after that. When I put up a plan obviously there will be a decision on which starting site, and of course, I will detail my reasoning carefully since we've had such a long discussion on it.

 

[leif erikson]

You guys are doing great work, please keep it up!

I am struggling with Civ5 and all kinds of crashes.
I'm also trying to get a gotm out for Oct 1st.

I hope to be back with some input early next week.

@MP - reminder that we are on a tight schedule with this SGOTM. I hope we can start by mid-week? Do you think this is possible?

 

[Mad Professor]

@MP - reminder that we are on a tight schedule with this SGOTM. I hope we can start by mid-week? Do you think this is possible?

My intention is to get a plan written by Monday night (GMT+3) so I can play maybe Tuesday night if no-one has major problems with the plan, or Wednesday night.

 

[leif erikson]

Thanks MP, that sounds great.

Keep up the good work.

 

[The-Hawk]

settling NNE allows us to settle our second city somewhere other than 1SE of the start. That is not a great city site, and may be clearly inferior to other options, depending on where the horses and copper show up, or there may be seafood resources in the ocean further south that a city settled further south could take advantage of.

This is a very good point and might be the factor that sways me to NNE. If there are any food resources to the deep south then settling on the southernmost tile would make a nice production city with three mines and Moia. Especially if there is food further west to include in a city with the silks. Come to think of it, the southernmost site would be a good prod site even without seafood... the rice will provide food for all three hills, correct?

This is a tough call. SE gets off to a roaring start, but might be detrimental in the long run. And this game is a marathon, not a sprint.

I wonder if we can credit the map designer with deliberately making this choice so difficult?

Yes, this is an outstanding starting map . I also need to give kudos to zamint3 for exploring the SE option. If I was playing single player, I would have settled NNE without a second thought.

I'm going back to try some NNE attempts. I think we have a pretty good feel on where SE gets us by turn 70.

 

[The-Hawk]

NNE Test: Three cities founded, including a deep south future prod city (this requires a scrub before the settler, so need to plan ahead). Four workers, so decent progress on improvements for all 3 cities. Library in the capital. Almost done math.

I did not research Archery. In the real game, depending on what the scout discovers, we may need to slot this in.

Turns:

1: Found Moscow, start worker, research fish
8: Fish -> AH
21: AH -> BW, worker -> WB, move to cow
22: Scrub cow
28: Pasture cow
31: City works cow
32: worker moves to gold
33: scrub gold
34: WB -> Scout, move WB to fish
35: work cow and fish
36: BW -> Wheel, revolt to slavery
39: Mine gold, work fish, cow, unimproved gold
40: Scout -> Settler, send scout off
43: Wheel -> Writing, worker roads cow for health
45: Worker to forest, whip settler
46: Settler -> WB, Settler moves west, worker chops
48: Finish chop
49: WB -> Worker, Worker 1 moves west with settler
50: Settle St. Pete, start worker
52: worker 1 building mine near St. Pete
53: Writing -> AG
54: Moscow: worker -> worker, worker 2 to forest
55: worker 2 chop, St. Pete works mine
56: worker 1 to forest near St. Pete
57: AG -> math, W2 finish chop
58: Moscow: worker -> warrior, worker 2 to forest, W1 chop, worker 3 south to prep that site.
59: Moscow: warrior -> settler
60: worker 1 finishes chop, worker 2 finish chop
61: St. Pete: worker -> warrior, worker 1 and 2 to rice, worker 4 improving St. Pete
62: Worker 3 scrub
64: Moscow Settler -> Library, St. Pete: Warrior -> Lib, workers 1 and 2 scrub rice, settler moving south
67: Worker 1 and 2 farming rice
68: Settler Rostov in deep south, start warrior, working forest hill. worker 3 to hill
69: worker 1 and 2 roading rice (probably should send one to improve St. Pete), Rostov working rice
70: worker 1 roading rice, worker 2 to grass to connect rice
71: Moscow: Library -> Settler

Save:

View attachment Hawk test NNE .CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Cactus Pete]

Hawk, you posted while I was writing. Suggest you try this alternative approach, going BW before AH, and compare.

Pleased to read that MP and Hawk have time for more testing (because I don't). Urge you to use chops and whip freely. I researched Fishing, BW, and AH.

Builds went (relying on imperfect memory) worker, until Fishing, then switched to wkbt, went back to worker for one turn while wkbt sailed to the fish, then started another wkbt as the city grew using the netted fishes.

As soon as got to pop two, went back to worker and whipped it ASAP. Think I lost a hammer or two by delaying worker, but using the whip more than compensated for this. Moved worker to forest and chopped to complete wkbt/scout, then moved him to grass cows. Soon as city got to pop 4, I completed settler ASAP with whip.

I sent scout west and eventually settler to the southeast, but realize now that it would probably be better (especially if an obvious second city site does not show up to the west) to send the scout south initially in order to explore for possible ocean resources and then send settler to best site available (and we will know where horses and copper are by that time).

 

[The-Hawk]

Builds went (relying on imperfect memory) worker, until Fishing, then switched to wkbt, went back to worker for one turn while wkbt sailed to the fish, then started another wkbt as the city grew using the netted fishes.

As soon as got to pop two, went back to worker and whipped it ASAP. Think I lost a hammer or two by delaying worker, but using the whip more than compensated for this. Moved worker to forest and chopped to complete wkbt/scout, then moved him to grass cows. Soon as city got to pop 4, I completed settler ASAP with whip.

Crossed posts... let me give this start a try. I built the first worker all the way to completion. I suspect your start got the worker and WBs up much faster.

 

[The-Hawk]

/Edit: fixed some of my comments.

I'm not going to take the tests as far because what happens after the 1st settler is built depends on what we scout out in the game. From the earlier long tests, I've more or less convinced myself that the NNE start catches up to SE start in the 70-80 turn timeframe.

Here is a variation on CP's start. I decided to slot a second worker in early (before scout). The timing on turn 34 was perfect, grew to pop 2 as WB finished. Once the nets are in place, we grow like rabbits and need improved tiles to work. Also, I believe there is a good chance we will need to scrub our 2nd city site (depending on where we find copper and horses). If we build a settler before worker 2, then we might have him sitting idle as our overworked worker moves to the site and scrubs. The early scout will be key to sorting this out. At turn 44, I work the seafood sites instead of cows while my warrior builds. This could be done differently to get a second warrior out, but I thought putting some beakers into writing was a good thing. I roaded the cows to avoid -1 health at pop 4. It all came together nicely (road, growth to pop 4, warrior finished) on turn 50.

50 turns:

1: Found Moscow, build worker, fishing
8: Fishing -> BW, switch build to WB
23: BW -> AH, revolt to slavery
24: Switch to WB
26: Pop 2, switch back to worker
29: whip worker
30: worker -> WB, worker to forest
31: chop
33: finish chop
34: Pop 2, WB -> worker, work fish and clams, move to cow
35: AH -> Wheel, worker scrubs cow
38: Whip worker
39: worker -> scout, worker 2 to cow
40: worker 2 finish scrub, worker 1 pasture
41: wheel -> writing, scout -> warrior, worker 2 pasture
42: worker 2 to gold
43: worker 1 to gold, worker 2 scrub
44: pop 2, work fish and clams for commerce, worker 1 scrub
47: pop 3, work fish, clam, cow, worker 2 mine
48: worker 2 moving south to prep for settler
49: worker 1 roading cow for pop growth to 4
50: pop 4, warrior -> settler, cow roaded

Writing is almost in, so from here, lots of options. All depends on what our scouts find. In this case, I have worker 2 going south to scrub city 2. Worker one can start to chop the settler. Once we can whip the settler, we should. Since writing will be in by then, Moscow can build a library as it grows back to 4, then switch to another settler.

Save:

View attachment Hawk test NNE 50 turns.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Cactus Pete]

This approach, whipping two workers, makes a great deal of sense to me. Like the tech order too, and certainly agree that testing beyond completion of the settler is not time well spent.

 

[Grifftavian]

I agree with CP's suggestion that we put all our Espionage Points against Stalin from the start. We have contact with all AI opponents on Turn 0, so the game mechanics will randomly assign 1 point each to four of them if we take no action. Given the probability that Stalin will be our next door neighbor, I think it makes sense to give Stalin a +1 weight on Turn 0, so he will get all four of our starting EPs from the beginning. If it turns out someone else is our neighbor, we could change after first contact. But even if we have a different neighbor, building up some EPs against Stalin early can't hurt, since he has to be eliminated as one of the Victory Conditions.

 

[zamint3]

Nice testing Hawk

Your last T50 save looks good, you might even convince me of going NNE

If you keep whipping every time Moscow reach pop4 you could delay The Wheel until later, also health will improve as you scrub the second cow and gold.

I did a comparrison of the NNE T71 (Hawk) and SE T71 (z3)

NNE:
3 cities
Pop 6
4 workers
2 warriors
1 scout
1 library
25 bpt/-2g at 80%
4 chops
Techs: Fish, Wheel, Agri, AH, BW, Writing, 330 -> Math
Working 1 gold and 1 cow

SE:
3 cities
Pop 8
5 workers
2 warriors
1 WB
1 library + 45 GPP
33 bpt/-1g at 80%
1 chop (+ settling Moscow on forest)
Techs: Fish, Wheel, Agri, AH, BW, Writing, Pottery, Sailing, 193 -> Alpha
Working 2 gold and 2 cow

I'm still for the SE approach, but as said before I don't know about the long term effects and SE might be blocking for some nice seafood south, so I have nothing against going NNE.

I like the idea of letting some of our cheaper units/smaller cities take the nukes so we should rex fast if Stalin is our next door neighbour.

 

[Cactus Pete]

This is more of a differential than I would have expected. Still need to take into account the advantage of having NNE as the capital (or the cost of moving the capital).

Not only does NNE allow for a possible better city placement in the south, it may allow us to place the second city to obtain an important strategic resource. That is, NNE give us valuable flexibility in siting our second city.

Wondering how useful Alpha will be to us early. May not need to discuss this before the first turn set, but certainly before the second.

 

[Mad Professor]

OK – here’s a plan, but first of all, the settling spot. I’d rather go to the NNE spot. The SE spot is better to begin with but if we went there I would be seriously suggesting a shift of the capital later to the second city which we put on the NNE spot. I don’t think the marginal benefit of going to the SE spot outweighs the cost of building a palace later. The SE spot doesn’t really have the food necessary to take full advantage of bureaucracy a bit later, and our science multipliers (particularly Oxford) need to be built where we can put on a string of scientists, which means lots of food. Cottaging the SE spot does yield respectable commerce long term, but not significantly better than the NNE spot with those gold mines, so we’d definitely want to move the capital to the NNE spot later if we settled the SE spot first.

So for my money, the NNE spot it is. With that in mind, here’s how I’m planning the turnset. I’m posting this plan 24 hours earlier than I intended because I found some time I didn’t expect to find today. I don’t expect major objections to this plan since it’s going to look rather like some tests that have been done! In one sense this turnset has already been played several times by several people! Have a look through it though and suggest any refinements you think are necessary, and I’ll try and take those on board. With no major objections, I should be able to play this about 24 hours after the posting time, on Monday night my time (GMT+3). If people think there’s a bit more discussion necessary or I just get zero response because people are not expecting a plan yet, it could be put off another 24 hours. I plan to go through the whole turnset in one evening unless there is something rather unexpected that I feel I need input from the team on before continuing.

I’ll settle the NNE spot, so we won’t be settling in the first turn. I plan to start worker first until Fishing is discovered, then get a WBoat done before completing worker. I’ll use the forest tile until the WBoat is finished to get it done sooner rather than later, then I’ll be making max use of the fish! I like Hawk’s way of getting a couple of workers out really quickly in his latest test of the NNE spot. I want a scout fairly early to do some exploring, and I’ll use the first worker to do at least one chop in getting the second worker out. After those two workers are out with chop, and maybe a bit of whip use, the main objective will be to grow Moscow ASAP to size 4 to produce the ability to whip a settler. Meanwhile, some warriors along with the scout while the city grows.

Tech order will probably be: Fish, BW, AH, Pottery, Writing (or archery if I get spooked, but probably not! ). I’m looking at playing around 40 turns as Leif suggested, and I don’t think I’ll get through all those techs in that time. If I do, the wheel would be next on the list. If people think putting wheel in earlier to get some tiles roaded is a good idea, then the place for it would be in between AH and pottery. Some feedback on this point would be good.

I usually write fairly detailed reports, so you’ll get a blow by blow description of everything I notice. So speak now or forever hold your peace...

 

[Cactus Pete]

Plan is basically fine with me. Note a couple of details below.

I’ll settle the NNE spot, so we won’t be settling in the first turn. I plan to start worker first until Fishing is discovered, then get a WBoat done before completing worker. BW comes in on same turn wkbt completed, but don't revolt to Slavery until the turn after worker is whipped, thereby getting it out a turn earlier -- the turn worker moves onto forest. Switch back to worker for one turn as wkbt sails to the fish, then after fish are netted, start another wkbt while city grows to pop2. Soon as pop 2 achieved, go back to worker and whip ASAP. Revolt and send worker to chop forest. I’ll use the forest tile until the WBoat is finished to get it done sooner rather than later, then I’ll be making max use of the fish! I like Hawk’s way of getting a couple of workers out really quickly in his latest test of the NNE spot. I want a scout fairly early to do some exploring, and I’ll use the first worker to do at least one chop in getting the second worker out. After those two workers are out with chop, and maybe [Why 'maybe'? Urge you to whip them both, just as Hawk did, unless you are not going to produced a second worker. a bit of whip use, the main objective will be to grow Moscow ASAP to size 4 to produce the ability to whip a settler. Meanwhile, some warriors along with the scout while the city grows. Scout before warrior.

Tech order will probably be: Fish, BW, AH, Pottery, Writing (or archery if I get spooked, but probably not! ). I’m looking at playing around 40 turns as Leif suggested, and I don’t think I’ll get through all those techs in that time. If I do, the wheel would be next on the list. If people think putting wheel in earlier to get some tiles roaded is a good idea, then the place for it would be in between AH and pottery. Some feedback on this point would be good. The fourth tech is worth discussing, and we really haven't. If you want to play in 24 hours (and that's good with me), perhaps you could pause after AH.

I usually write fairly detailed reports, so you’ll get a blow by blow description of everything I notice. So speak now or forever hold your peace...

I have spoken my piece.

 

[Grifftavian]

MP - plans looks good, I'll concur with CP's comments, and I'll add go ahead and research The Wheel between AH and Pottery, since The Wheel is a prerequisite for Pottery.

Also think it would be a good idea to stop and post if you encounter any AI Civs during your turn set.

 

[leif erikson]

Agree with CP's comment, except this is a bit puzzling:

BW comes in on same turn wkbt completed, but don't revolt to Slavery until the turn after worker is whipped

I assume he means the turn the Worker is produced? Can't whip without Slavery?

Not sure you need to stop if you meet an AI or discover their borders unless it is quite close or looks like an invasion?
Not sure that an AI location is going to alter our start unless they are very close.
If you find yourself uncertain, then by all means, please save, post and we'll discuss.

Good Luck!

 

[Conquistador 63]

Sorry for being absent lately. I am fine with MP's plan, and CP's and Griff's comments.

Being new to XTeam, I don't mean to interfere your turnset playing style, but in previous SG's we would sometimes take a shorter initial set, or at least stop mid-turnset when we met AI units, but I understand that without early scouting (no starting warrior or scout), things could be pretty uneventful here.

One thing we could try is to buy peace with Gandhi as soon as we get a tech he doesn't have (BW?). Not sure that tech alone is enough for it, but if it is, it wouldn't hurt having a future tech trade partner (as he will trade at annoyed/furious IIRC, provided it is not a tech monopoly).

Another one, not sure about the usefulness of early warriors (aside garrison for cities), in a game with no barbarians.

 

[The-Hawk]

This is more of a differential than I would have expected.

But remember, this was a 70 turn try with worker first (no switch to WB). I suspect if we took the 50 turn start with the switch to WB then whipped workers, we could close the gap.

Tech order will probably be: Fish, BW, AH, Pottery, Writing

I was thinking writing before pottery to get some specialists running and go for an early Academy. However, with all the whipping potential in the capital, a granary might be good too.

I agree with CP's comments... we should take a pause after AH. At this point, we will be getting close to starting the settler, which means we might need to get a worker started on scrubbing. With AH and BW both complete, perfect time to plan our city placement so we know how to manage the workers.