SGOTM 12 - Xteam

[Mad Professor]

Hey what’s with the “server is too busy at the moment” messages I’ve been getting the last couple of days? I’ve never seen that before and both today and yesterday I’ve been unable to get on the forum for quite long periods.

Anyhow, I played both a SE start and the NNE start again in Leif nuked file. I did much the same as Z on the SE start though I was teching a bit faster – probably tile choice – possibly would have finished a few turns behind on the libraries as I was probably choosing commerce over hammers to tech faster. I didn’t get to find out though because Stalin put his second city where I put Rostov in my last test, promptly moved in four tac nukes and dropped them all on St. Pete.

I played theNNE start again, this time doing as Fred suggested and settled NNW of the copper as a second city and going south as a third city. I think this is actually better. I diverged from the previous test by building an extra work boat and a scout and as a consequence I have a lot more exploration done than last time.

I have also finished a couple of libraries I didn’t get done last time and I’m about the same on tech. On the other hand I’m several turns slower getting that third city (and consequently the third worker) out. This is because the first time I did this Moscow had the fish for longer. Putting the second city to the west is really only good if it gets to use the fish like it does when it’s the third city. The catch though is that this slows down population regrowth in Moscow after using the whip, so the settlers and workers come out slightly slower than they did in my first test where I put the second city to the south.

This way the NNE spot looks comparable to the SE spot performance. In this particular save (it could be totally different in the real game) Stalin is also discouraged from settling directly at us it seems! The advantage of the SE save is that you can use a 3 hammer forested hill making the unhealthy simply not count as you can’t shrink a size 1 city. This makes the SE considerably better for the first few turns, but I think the NNE start evens it up later.

My attempt at the SE spot parallels Z’s attempt pretty much – just that I was teching a bit quicker and building a little slower. The second go at the NNE spot is similar to my first go, but I’m a couple of libraries ahead, but several turns slower on the third city and the third worker.

By the way - the SE spot leaves us a short a forest because we settle on one and a second forest because we chop one. The tests I've done on the NNE spot has not involved any chopping.

So what do you think?

 

[Grifftavian]

Hey what’s with the “server is too busy at the moment” messages I’ve been getting the last couple of days? I’ve never seen that before and both today and yesterday I’ve been unable to get on the forum for quite long periods.

I've noticed some of that also. More people going to the site as a result of the release?

SNIP...

So what do you think?

Sounds like the NNE site can catch-up and pass the SE site fairly soon. If that's the case, NNE may be best. Getting two Libraries up and running before the third city may not be a bad option, if we've got the extra population to run some Scientist specialists.

You said you didn't do any chopping with this last NNE test; did you put the 3rd city on the forested plains hill 2S of start? If so, it might makes sense to go ahead and chop those trees for a Settler (or Worker, or Library, etc.) rather than just losing the trees when we Settle on them.

 

[da_Vinci]

I've noticed some of that also. More people going to the site as a result of the release?

For sure ... look at the civ 5 forum, especially the bug forum ... it's boiling over!

And the rants about why civ 5 is not civ 4 ...

Sounds like the NNE site can catch-up and pass the SE site fairly soon. If that's the case, NNE may be best. Getting two Libraries up and running before the third city may not be a bad option, if we've got the extra population to run some Scientist specialists.

You said you didn't do any chopping with this last NNE test; did you put the 3rd city on the forested plains hill 2S of start? If so, it might makes sense to go ahead and chop those trees for a Settler (or Worker, or Library, etc.) rather than just losing the trees when we Settle on them.

The question is not whether NNE city passes the SE city in the same game, the question is whether the NNE in a settle SE first game passes NNE in a settle NNE first game. Or, whether SE is a better capital long term (or for as long as the capital stays on that peninsula) than NNE.

I think the idea of SE is to get the fastest possible worker, and that an early NNE is hampered by ill health and fallout, such that settling it second with a worker in hand to prep it is no worse than settling it first. Or the latest idea, that SE can actually work more commerce (gold, silk and more cottages) than NNE and will be a respectable bureau capital in its own right, but matures later (if we can get enough health and happiness, of course).

dV

 

[The-Hawk]

I chopped only one forrest (NW of Moscow)

Why not mine the plains hill for your chop? Gives you a four hammer tile. I think I might give this a try.

 

[The-Hawk]

My test. At turn 67: 4 cities built, 3 workers, 1 WB exploring, 4 warriors, 1 lib built and working specialists. Probably could have done better by building some cottages vs. time spent roading. Also, I think a 4th worker would be better than the 4th settler, but that all depends on how juicy a 4th site we find.


0: Move SE
1: Found Moscow, worker, BW
16: Worker -> Settler, move to hill
17: BW -> AH, revolt to slavery, start chop/mining hill
23: finish chop
24: worker moves to cow
25: worker moves to cow
26: scrub cow
28: Settler -> worker, settler moving to NNE position
30: Found St. Pete, build warrior, AH-> Fish
31: St. Pete keeps working forest grass when scrub done
32: pasture cow
35: work cow
36: worker move to 2nd cow
37: warrior -> WB, Fishing -> Wheel, Scrub cow
39: whip WB
40: Moscow: worker -> settler, 2nd worker move to cow, WB move to fish, St. Pete: WB -> WB
41: work fish
42: Worker 2 pasturing cow
43: Worker 1 pasturing cow
44: Whip WB, worker 1 to gold
45: Wheel -> Agri, St Pete: WB -> Warrior, worker 1 scrub gold, worker 2 road cow
46: St. Pete: Warrior -> warrior, move warrior to Moscow
47: Worker 2 moves to rice
49: Scrub rice
51: Mine gold
52: St Pete: Warrior -> WB
55: Moscow: Settler -> Worker, worker 2 farm rice, worker 1 moves to gold
56: worker 1 scrub gold.
57: St Pete: WB -> Warrior
58: St Pete pop 5 unhappy from whip
59: St Pete pop 5 all happy, warrior -> Settler
60: worker 2 road rice, Settle Novgorod
61: Whip settler
62: Writing -> Pottery, St Pete: Settler -> Lib, worker 1 mine gold, worker 2 to Novgorod
64: St Pete: Lib -> Barracks, work one scientist
65: St. Pete pop to 4, work 2 scientists
67: Settle 4th city, Moscow: Worker -> Lib

 

[The-Hawk]

This can be improved by focusing the first worker on cleaning and mining gold. Also delaying wheel in favor of earlier writing. The two early workboats provide sufficient health, no need to road and pasture the cows. My result was similar (4 cities by turn 70, 3 workers), but I had teched further (archery and mysticism).

In both tests, I limited to a single chop (mining the forest hill). Obviously some more chops could speed up REX, but maybe the forests are better saved for later chops.

 

[zamint3]

In both tests, I limited to a single chop (mining the forest hill).

Looks good!
So in both test you kept Moscow at pop 1 and had it producing only settlers and workers until T67?
I'll try this with a WB from Moscow after the settler, and of course Fish before AH

 

[Mad Professor]

My test.

etc - snip

You've done well. What I notice you doing here is using Moscow in the SE position to produce workers and settlers with the 4 hammer tile (3 workers and a settler at size 1?) while growing St. Pete on the NNE position. You do whip a settler there.

You've also done it while delaying the studying of fishing to after AH and working cows rather than fish. The grassland cows are one less food than the fish (same food as clams) and 2 less commerce, but has 2 more hammers. You overcome a fair bit of the delay getting the fish working by using the whip to get two work boats out promptly after fishing is finished.

Normally I don't like whipping things like work boats, preferring to build them while population is growing so I can whip workers and settlers. However in this case, your use of Moscow in the SE site to put out so many of the early workers and settlers without using the whip allows the whip to be used on work boats, and because they result in increased food quickly, it pays off it seems.

 

[Mad Professor]

Looks good!
So in both test you kept Moscow at pop 1 and had it producing only settlers and workers until T67?
I'll try this with a WB from Moscow after the settler, and of course Fish before AH

I'm looking forward to seeing the result of that. This is the one thing I'd like to test also. Fish earlier or cow earlier?

 

[zamint3]

I'm looking forward to seeing the result of that. This is the one thing I'd like to test also. Fish earlier or cow earlier?

Mining the forest plains hill is the way to go!

@Hawk: Could you post a save of your progress?

Did a very quick test, and WB after the settler looks very good, there seems to be some nice timing getting the fish exactly when St. Peter is about to become unhealthy, and I don't think it will delay the cow more than a few turns!
I'll do another test where I'll try to grow Moscow a bit after the seafood is in, and this time I plan on taking notes.

- wait, there's the mail guy - one moment!

Guess what he brought, one day early.....

OK I downloaded the Demo tuesday, (3 hours ) but there's nothing like the real deal. , let's see if it runs as smoothly as the Demo.

Did I say something about testing and writing notes....

 

[The-Hawk]

Looks good!
So in both test you kept Moscow at pop 1 and had it producing only settlers and workers until T67?
I'll try this with a WB from Moscow after the settler, and of course Fish before AH

Now that you mention it, in the 2nd test, I did Fishing before AH and ran a WB next. I ran at pop 1 until around turn 60 when the rice was farmed, then I started to grow pop.

High level turns:

0: Move SE
1: Found Moscow, worker, BW
16: Worker -> Settler, move to hill
17: BW -> Fishing, revolt to slavery, start chop/mining hill
23: finish chop
24: worker moves to cow near gold, Fish -> AH
27: scrub cow
28: Settler -> WB, settler moving to NNE position
30: Found St. Pete, St. Pete: WB
31: St. Pete keeps working forest grass when scrub done
32: work cow for pop growth
33: move worker to gold
34: scrub gold, Moscow: WB -> worker
36: AH -> AG
38: work fish
39: whip WB
40: St. Pete: WB -> warrior, mining gold
43: AG -> writing, St. Pete: Warrior -> Warrior
44: Pasture cow
46: Moscow worker -> worker, worker 2 moves to rice
47: scrub rice, St. Pete working cow, fish, clams for pop
48: worker 1 moves to gold
49: scrub gold
51: St Pete: Warrior -> settler
53: Farm rice, St. Pete whip settler
54: writing -> wheel, St. Pete Settler -> Lib
55: worker 1 mine gold
56: St. Pete: working cow, fish, clams for pop
58: Moscow: worker -> warrior, working rice, Settle Novogorod, Novgorod builds worker
59: worker 1 to cow, worker 2 to river grass, worker 3 to Novgorod hill
60: Wheel -> pottery, St. Pete: Lib -> warrior, scrub cow, scrub grass
63: St. Pete: warrior -> settler, worker 3 mining hill
64: pottery -> archery
65: St. Pete: Whip settler
66: St. Pete: Settler -> Granary, pasture cow, cottage river
67: Arch -> Myst
70: Found Yaroslavl

I think this is the save: View attachment XTeam test Hawk SE settle.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Frederiksberg]

Before you make a decision between settling NNE and SE I suggest you consider the following:

1. How does the tech speed compare between NNE and SE?
2. The SE city is most likely not a viable Capital in the longer term because it doesn't have the food surplus required for a real powerhouse capital. This means that the cost of moving the palace later must be factored in.

 

[zamint3]

Now that you mention it, in the 2nd test, I did Fishing before AH and ran a WB next. I ran at pop 1 until around turn 60 when the rice was farmed, then I started to grow pop.

Yes - this looks good!

Did a test very much the same approach.

Spoiler :

1: Settle SE, start worker, research Bronze, work forest ph
16: Worker -> Settler
17: BW -> Fishing, worker start mining
23: Fishing -> AH, mine done
26: starts scrubbing cow
27: Settler -> WB,
29: Found St. Peter NNE, start WB, working forrest plain
31: Scrub done, St. Peter work cow, scrub makes St. Peter healthy
33: Moscow: WB -> worker, worker 1 scrub cow
34: Worker back to 1. cow
35: AH -> Writing, worker pasture cow
37: Net the Fish, St. Peter work fish, +1 health
38: St. Peter -> pop 2, pasture done, St. Peter work fish and cow
40: Scrub cow, revolt to slavery
42: St. Peter -> pop 3, become unhappy (ww) and unhealthy, whip WB, and St. Peter is happy and healthy.
43: St. Peter: WB -> Worker (nice overflow), net Clam, St. Peter work fish + clam, Moscow now healthy, works cow.
44: Scrub done
45: Start pasture
46: Moscow: worker 2 -> warrior, worker 2 -> gold,
48: St. Peter: worker 3 -> WB, worker 3 pasture, pasture done, worker 1 -> gold, St. Peter works fish + cow
49: Moscow: warrior -> WB, warrior -> exploring, worker 1+2 scrub gold, worker 3 -> gold
50: Writing -> Agriculture
51 St. Peter -> pop 3, workers mine gold
52: St. Peter: warrior -> library, gold online, Moscow -> pop 2, change production to settler, worker 2 -> rice
54: St. Peter -> pop 4
56: Agriculture -> Wheel
58: St. Peter -> pop 5, 2nd gold mined
59: Wheel -> Sailing, workers 1+3 road cow, St. Peter + Moscow healthy, research 90% +27 bpt
60: St. Peter: library -> worker, hire 2 scientists
61: Moscow: Settler -> WB, workers 1+2+3 farm rice
64: Sailing -> Pottery, Novgorod settled
65: Whip worker in St. Peter, fire one scientist
66: Pottery -> Alphabet, St. Peter: Worker -> Lighthouse
67: Moscow: WB -> worker
70: Whip worker in Moscow

Should probably have researched Wheel and Agri before Writing to keep St. Peter and Moscow healthy!

 

[Mad Professor]

Before you make a decision between settling NNE and SE I suggest you consider the following:
[*]How does the tech speed compare between NNE and SE?

Tech speed seems to be fairly even Fred because we can get a city on the NNE spot quite quickly. Early on with the NNE spot we don't have fishing so no coast tiles anyway, but after that the NNE spot is quicker teching at first, but the SE spot as first settling spot seems to do fairly well also.

[*]The SE city is most likely not a viable Capital in the longer term because it doesn't have the food surplus required for a real powerhouse capital. This means that the cost of moving the palace later must be factored in.

This is the remaining question to be answered. Cottages everywhere around the SE spot still will make it a decent Bureacracy capital later. If it is not good enough for our liking then building the palace in St. Pete on the NNE spot would be necessary. We need to think about the hammers that would be sunk into that build. It's not actually a very big build, all things considered, but if we were going to do it, then doing it around the time we get Civil Service I guess would be the time.

I guess the first question is will the SE spot cut it as capital later on compared to the NNE spot - Fred's point is the lack of food in the SE spot makes it less useful, and I think he's right. That being so, the question is whether early benefits of the SE first settling spot we've seen from these last few tests are bigger than the eventual cost of building a palace in St. Pete?

 

[Cactus Pete]

This is terrific planning/testing/discusssion. Sorry I have been able to make no contribution. Did just get the game running and the save up, but will have little time for about 12 more hours.

Have read throught the thread, and Fred has expressed my concerns in his post just above. Would also point out that having both golds in our capital would be preferable. However, early advantage can ususally be leveraged powerfully.

We can't test the possible advantage gained by this; nonetheless, we should at least consider producing a scout very early, especially since there are no barbs around (and perhaps no animals-- anyone know if no barbs means no animals too?). Knowledge is often power in Civ.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Played he test game going SE to about 2500BC (all I had time for today). Surprising how much can be achieved under adverse circumstances.

Followed Hawks play initially and then tried an alternative route: Researched AH before Fishing and built scout in St. Pete and second worker in Moscow instead of wkbts in both (then built wkbts after scout and worker completed). There are advantages to this, as it gets a scout out early (along with the second worker) and allows powerful grassland cows to be pastured and utilized quickly (timing works out well), plus, will show where horses (if any) are. Scouting and more available hammers from cow would give us greater flexibility to react to what the game presents--e.g. building an axe or chariot for defense or stealing; learning where to locate a third city to gain copper and/or horses. Of course, delaying netting fishes and clams does slow research.

I also got a strong sense that chopping forests is powerful until we can utilize Slavery, even though we would get more for them after Math. Fallout means moving onto forests is no slower than other moves. Do not think we should hoard forests but utilize them to get off to a strong start.

Hope Hawk and/or MP will try this to get a feel for this alternate approach and compare (won't take long). I still have limited time to test, but will try to look at NNE tomorrow..

 

[The-Hawk]

To date I mostly focused on maximizing settlers and workers just to test the start location but agree we will need to explore in the game. I have a ton of time this weekend should be able to test some more.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Tried testing NNE this morning. It is certainly slower going initially, but there is a catch up, and I would encourage MP to take that approach, chopping a wkbt and whipping a settler as soon as pop4 allows.

In addition to it being a far better long-term capital site, settling NNE allows us to settle our second city somewhere other than 1SE of the start. That is not a great city site, and may be clearly inferior to other options, depending on where the horses and copper show up, or there may be seafood resources in the ocean further south that a city settled further south could take advantage of.

Was able to get a scout out after the second wkbt and before a warrior, and urge this approach.

Also thinking that putting all our espionage points towards Stalin may be wise.

In playing the test save, Stalin did not go after my scout with an archer that seemed to be available for the task. Is this a function of the game prohibiting such AI action very early on? Does Stalin have nukes in the test save that could have been directed at the scout? Can we test whether we can induce Stalin to nuke our cheap units and thereby get rid of any nukes he is initially holding? Also, anyone know if the AI will nuke a foreign unit within its own cultural borders?

 

[Ronnie1]

Sorry for not being very active yet, my internet should be fixed fairly soon I hope, maybe a week or so.

I have tested both the SE and NNE sites that have been proposed. I believe the NNE site is far superior. The ability to work the seafood early can not be matched by the SE site. I played about 100 turns twice at each site with some different tech paths. I think we have plenty of options, but I like a path that nets us Confucianism and then Civil Service very near to T100. I guess it depends on how many cities we try to get up and running before that time.

Can we test whether we can induce Stalin to nuke our cheap units and thereby get rid of any nukes he is initially holding? Also, anyone know if the AI will nuke a foreign unit within its own cultural borders?

Not sure about the last part, but in 2 of my 4 tests, Stalin nuked units 1 tile outside my 3rd city.

 

[Mad Professor]

I have tested both the SE and NNE sites that have been proposed. I believe the NNE site is far superior. The ability to work the seafood early can not be matched by the SE site. I played about 100 turns twice at each site with some different tech paths. I think we have plenty of options, but I like a path that nets us Confucianism and then Civil Service very near to T100. I guess it depends on how many cities we try to get up and running before that time.

That's good Ronnie. It would be helpful though if you have some notes from how you played then you could let us know the strategy you used. That way I can compare it with other tests and see if you've discovered some neat way of pushing us ahead!

If you didn't take any notes, try to jot down for me the main points of how you played the two sites.

Not sure about the last part, but in 2 of my 4 tests, Stalin nuked units 1 tile outside my 3rd city.

I think when I play the real save we're going to get some really good info about the other AI's to update our test files with!