SGOTM 12 - Xteam

[da_Vinci]

Potential reasons to consider finishing the worker before starting the WB:

Early worker out can start removing fallout, which adds to our effective food production.

Early worker could get us to an early gold mine ... (even before the cows are pastured). Depends on whether we need it faster than the worker can get it if he waits on the first WB ... has anyone examined this?

Is the optimal tile usage for NNE the two seafood and the two gold mines? If so, do we need AH very early at all?

dV

 

[zamint3]

I can't imagine any other site besides NNE that could do as well ... NE or in place will have more fallout unhealth (-4 vs -3, right) which is no small impediment to worker production, and growth early on.

Actually "in Place" is the spot with the best health due to the river and more forrest.

In Pl: 0 health, hammers -> worker 4 (15 turns), hammers -> settler 5 (20 turns)
NE : -2 health, hammers -> worker 2 (30 turns), hammers -> settler 3 (34 turns)
NNE: -1 health, hammers -> worker 3 (20 turns), hammers -> settler 4 (25 turns)
SE : -2 health, hammers -> worker 4 (15 turns), hammers -> settler 6 (17 turns)
2S : -2 health, hammers -> worker 3 (20 turns), hammers -> settler 4 (25 turns)

2S is not really an option, compared to SE , because we have to work a food tile (silk) and put the 2 food in the foodbox because of the -2 from health problems. This is not a problem SE because we'll be working the 3 plains hill forrest, so we don't have any food to put in the box

I don't really believe in settling in place because we need the 2 seafood for health.

I'll upload another SE test, starting with a worker, soon.

 

[leif erikson]

Early worker out can start removing fallout, which adds to our effective food production.

Early worker could get us to an early gold mine ... (even before the cows are pastured). Depends on whether we need it faster than the worker can get it if he waits on the first WB ... has anyone examined this?

Hawk did a Worker first test game. His results:
Turn 1: Found Moscow, start worker, AH
Turn 14: AH -> BW
Turn 21: Worker -> Warrior, move worker to cow
Turn 22 scrub
Turn 27: scrubbing done, move citizen to cow for faster pop, worker pastures
Turn 30: BW -> Fish, warrior -> warrior
Turn 32: Pasture done, move to forest

Pasture is completed on turn 32.

In the test game I played, the WB is out and fish are netted by turn 24. The food is used to finish the Worker. Compare +6 food of Fish to +4 food of Cow Pasture, and 8-turns earlier. I do not see how it compares?

Not sure fast Gold Mine is the best when we can get +4 commerce from the two seafood tiles, even when we whip, while keeping our capital growing?

Is the optimal tile usage for NNE the two seafood and the two gold mines? If so, do we need AH very early at all?

Eventually. If we want to produce Settlers and Workers, the optimal use of tiles is most likely Fish, Clam and both Cows at size 4? The trick is getting back to size 4 quickly, so the Fish and either the Clam or the Cow provide the most food. Cow if we need hammers and Clam for commerce.

Actually "in Place" is the spot with the best health due to the river and more forrest.

In Pl: 0 health, hammers -> worker 4 (15 turns), hammers -> settler 5 (20 turns)
NE : -2 health, hammers -> worker 2 (30 turns), hammers -> settler 3 (34 turns)
NNE: -1 health, hammers -> worker 3 (20 turns), hammers -> settler 4 (25 turns)
SE : -2 health, hammers -> worker 4 (15 turns), hammers -> settler 6 (17 turns)
2S : -2 health, hammers -> worker 3 (20 turns), hammers -> settler 4 (25 turns)

2S is not really an option, compared to SE , because we have to work a food tile (silk) and put the 2 food in the foodbox because of the -2 from health problems. This is not a problem SE because we'll be working the 3 plains hill forrest, so we don't have any food to put in the box

I don't really believe in settling in place because we need the 2 seafood for health.

I'll upload another SE test, starting with a worker, soon.

Good analysis zamint!

We need to also think about longer term and the bonuses the capital can receive. Should we go with SE, what longer term prospect does the city serve, production center?

 

[da_Vinci]

Actually "in Place" is the spot with the best health due to the river and more forrest.

In Pl: 0 health, hammers -> worker 4 (15 turns), hammers -> settler 5 (20 turns)
NE : -2 health, hammers -> worker 2 (30 turns), hammers -> settler 3 (34 turns)
NNE: -1 health, hammers -> worker 3 (20 turns), hammers -> settler 4 (25 turns)
SE : -2 health, hammers -> worker 4 (15 turns), hammers -> settler 6 (17 turns)
2S : -2 health, hammers -> worker 3 (20 turns), hammers -> settler 4 (25 turns)
:

That is what I get for speaking without looking!

2S is not really an option, compared to SE , because we have to work a food tile (silk) and put the 2 food in the foodbox because of the -2 from health problems. This is not a problem SE because we'll be working the 3 plains hill forrest, so we don't have any food to put in the box

Right ... the whole idea of SE then is whether a fast initial worker, who then preps the NNE site, gives a benefit over settling NNE right away. If NNE can make WB from the start, with a worker already in hand, it can potentially make up a lot of the lost time from later settling. Although, scrubbing around SE can potentially speed the settler ... is that better than scrubbing at the NNE site first?

However, we lose the concentration of the palace commerce with the two gold mines if capital is SE ... which makes the NNE academy less powerful. But if we think the palace is moving inland eventually anyway, maybe that doesn't matter?

Another risk of SE may be less ability to respond to an attack threat compared to NNE right away, as we spend a lot of time just running the one hill forest and not growing.

dV

 

[zamint3]

I tried SE with the worker first and it rocks early on....

Worker did one chop for the settler and then scrubbed the eastern cow.

Moscow (SE): Worker - Settler - WB

I played until T70 if you want to compare with MP's save and I have an early (different) test-save from T60 if you want to compare with Hawk or Leif.
I did 3 cities and 3 workers for better comparison, more workers might be better.

T70 Stats:
Cities: 3
Pop: 10
Research: +43 bpt/+1 gpt slider at 80% (can grow to +46 with St. Peter running 2 scientists)
Workers: 3
Warriors: 2
Workboat: 1 - exploring up north
Libraries: 2
Cottages: 2
Techs: BW - Fishing - AH - Wheel - Agriculture - Pottery - Writing - Sailing
(no archery (2 turns))

As soon as St. Peter has got the 2 seafood health picks up quickly in Moscow being connected by sea.

Sorry no time for turnlog, the autolog is quite a mess with all the reloading!

We need to also think about longer term and the bonuses the capital can receive. Should we go with SE, what longer term prospect does the city serve, production center?

However, we lose the concentration of the palace commerce with the two gold mines if capital is SE ... which makes the NNE academy less powerful. But if we think the palace is moving inland eventually anyway, maybe that doesn't matter?

Another risk of SE may be less ability to respond to an attack threat compared to NNE right away, as we spend a lot of time just running the one hill forest and not growing.

These are very good points to which I have no answers.

One last thing: How about rushing our next neighbour with Axes (if we have copper) ?

Off to bed - must be ready for Civ5

 

[leif erikson]

One last thing: How about rushing our next neighbour with Axes (if we have copper) ?

Hope he doesn't have any Mech Infantry and Tac Nukes waiting to greet us...

Off to bed - must be ready for Civ5

Thought civ5 doesn't release in Europe until Friday?
You didn't use my home address again, did you?

 

[leif erikson]

In case you have not been following the Maintenance thread. Please see this post concerning AI cheating when cleaning up fallout. Could mean faster AI development.

 

[Mad Professor]

Excellent discussion on starting spot. This is just what I need. Keep it going.

I tried SE with the worker first and it rocks early on....

I'll have a good look at this (today hopefully). Looks impressive at a quick glance.

 

[da_Vinci]

Excellent discussion on starting spot. This is just what I need. Keep it going.

I'll have a good look at this (today hopefully). Looks impressive at a quick glance.

If we are down to NNE vs SE, then SE has to make up the delay in getting a city up to NNE, and then get ahead on our further expansion in order to make up for the dilution of commerce that not having the palace with the gold mines gives us regarding the academy NNE.

I am not saying that it can't accomplish all of that, just stating the requirements for SE to be the better play (as I see it) ... well, with a possible exception:

If we are going to have to sit and take a half dozen nukes raining down on us, maybe more smaller cities is the way to go, we don't invest a lot of hammers into any one city's infrastructure until the nukes are used up ... in which case maybe the SE play looks better?

dV

 

[Mad Professor]

Can academies be destroyed by nukes? I know some buildings can't - like wonders...

 

[da_Vinci]

Can academies be destroyed by nukes? I know some buildings can't - like wonders...

Well, the WB can tell us, I suppose. It is an answer that we need to know.

dV

 

[Mad Professor]

Well, the WB can tell us, I suppose. It is an answer that we need to know.

dV

Ya - I might put a city with an academy on a map and another civ with 50 nukes and drop them all. If the academy survives I guess it is impossible to destroy an academy with a nuke

 

[Mad Professor]

Real life intervened and delayed plans. I've now a had a close look at Z's test with settling spot SE rather than NNE.

Z - you did say you went worker first? You've done well there as St. Pete was still founded in about T29 - very early indeed. Did the worker chop the settler? You didn't adopt slavery until after that so you couldn't have whipped it. The power in what you've done is getting out a worker then still settling the NNE spot by 2840BC! Fishing is already discovered when the NNE spot is settled, so it can begin straight away on the work boat instead of having to wait while fishing is discovered, and AH comes in quite soon after the settling of that city, to workers are not delayed on anything either.

As much as I like the NNE spot as a first settling spot, what Z has done with the SE spot in this last test is quite impressive.

You've gone BW first - so the worker can chop the settler right? All at size one? Please confirm the order of your actions there. I think it's important I understand what you've done there.

In comparing this with the NNE spot as a first settling spot, I think it looks good done this way. Because we are not trying to get a work boat out, we can in fact get a settler sooner as long as we're willing to spend a forest to do it. I suppose in the scenario of settling NNE first, we could spend a forest there too in order to get the first settler out faster. What is the value of that forest we now don't have? I'm thinking from looking at Z's effort in that test that the power of settling a second city by 2840BC and starting a work boat in it without delay is actually worth the forest.

Opinions?

Convince me the NNE is better! If no-one can, Z might have convinced me that the SE spot is actually better as long as we can get the NNE spot settled with a second city very early on like he did in the test.

 

[da_Vinci]

Convince me the NNE is better! If no-one can, Z might have convinced me that the SE spot is actually better as long as we can get the NNE spot settled with a second city very early on like he did in the test.

The two questions I have about capital SE are:

Can it react to build defense if we get an early rush ... at least as well as capital NNE?

Does it provide enough acceleration over capital NNE to make up for the eventual loss of not having the capital combined with the gold for library, academy, etc.?

If you can answer yes to both of these, then I an OK with SE.

dV

 

[zamint3]

Z - you did say you went worker first? You've done well there as St. Pete was still founded in about T29 - very early indeed. Did the worker chop the settler? You didn't adopt slavery until after that so you couldn't have whipped it. The power in what you've done is getting out a worker then still settling the NNE spot by 2840BC! Fishing is already discovered when the NNE spot is settled, so it can begin straight away on the work boat instead of having to wait while fishing is discovered, and AH comes in quite soon after the settling of that city, to workers are not delayed on anything either.



You've gone BW first - so the worker can chop the settler right? All at size one? Please confirm the order of your actions there. I think it's important I understand what you've done there.

You're right on all points

I chopped only one forrest (NW of Moscow), it did add some unhealthiness in Moscow, but it does not matter if you run -2 food or -3 food at this point.
I did not revolt to slavery until later when the whip was needed for a worker from St. Peter.
When St. Peter was founded it could work the eastern cow right away, I don't think the pasture was there yet but it was scrubbed.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I think it's worth testing both strategies some more. The NNE strategy may improve if "Rostov" is settled 2nd. No reason to settle the south particularly early. When comparing it's also important that the same number of forests are chopped in each case. Could the SE approach improve if Moscow built the first WB for St. Pete immediately after the settler?

The long term coast of having the Palace SE is 4 bpt when the Academy is constructed NNE and of course the cost of relocating the palace (MUST be done before CS is discovered).

 

[zamint3]

Can it react to build defense if we get an early rush ... at least as well as capital NNE?

First: I don't think we'll get an early rush, the AI starts with no units, except for the occasional ICBM and second: yes, the only hammer tile NNE early on is the cow or the gold (2), and SE has got the plains hill forrest (3).
Later SE can work both the plains hill forrest and the cow and on the long run SE is better production wise: 4 hills (remember S-SE is a grass hill - not grass as in the testgame) + 1 cow +1 gold, NNE has 1 hill + 2 cow + 2 gold).

Does it provide enough acceleration over capital NNE to make up for the eventual loss of not having the capital combined with the gold for library, academy, etc.?

Yes - note it's not "bold" this time

Given enough health and happiness NNE will outgrow SE any time.

Commerse wise, what's the big difference:
NNE can work: 2 gold + 4 grass cottages + sea tiles
SE can work : 1 gold + 1 silk + 5 grass cottages (+ 1 plains cottage if we want that) + sea tiles.

Long term SE might even win this race.

 

[zamint3]

I think it's worth testing both strategies some more. The NNE strategy may improve if "Rostov" is settled 2nd. No reason to settle the south particularly early.

Agree!

Could the SE approach improve if Moscow built the first WB for St. Pete immediately after the settler?

I did this in my test.

 

[Mad Professor]

Unless anyone is getting really impatient, I'd like to hold off playing another day or two so I can test that nuked save again, trying what Fred suggests with the NNE start, followed by settling west of there second where I put the third city last time and seeing if that improves it.

I'd also like to play with the SE option a little again.

I think it is good try very hard to choose the best option here...

 

[leif erikson]

Unless anyone is getting really impatient, I'd like to hold off playing another day or two so I can test that nuked save again, trying what Fred suggests with the NNE start, followed by settling west of there second where I put the third city last time and seeing if that improves it.

I'd also like to play with the SE option a little again.

I think it is good try very hard to choose the best option here...

Agreed.