SGOTM 12 - Xteam

[Frederiksberg]

Early Academy is important so Writing after AH deserves consideration.

First settler at T50 sounds a bit late. Has anyone tested building the settler before the 2nd worker. Note that 2nd worker can be whipped not long after the settler.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Agree with CP's comment, except this is a bit puzzling:

I assume he means the turn the Worker is produced? Can't whip without Slavery?

Puzzles me too. Don't think I'm familiar with the frazzled fool who posted that. Revolt at will, MP.

 

[The-Hawk]

First settler at T50 sounds a bit late. Has anyone tested building the settler before the 2nd worker. Note that 2nd worker can be whipped not long after the settler.

The problem is it takes one worker too long to scrub and improve tiles. If worker 1 does a chop (for a settler instead of a worker), it will take until turn 44 or 45 for him to scrub and pasture the cow by himself. This means the early settler will have to settle an unscrubbed tile unless we have the worker leave Moscow before even pasturing the cow.

 

[leif erikson]

Being new to XTeam, I don't mean to interfere your turnset playing style, but in previous SG's we would sometimes take a shorter initial set, or at least stop mid-turnset when we met AI units, but I understand that without early scouting (no starting warrior or scout), things could be pretty uneventful here.

One thing we could try is to buy peace with Gandhi as soon as we get a tech he doesn't have (BW?). Not sure that tech alone is enough for it, but if it is, it wouldn't hurt having a future tech trade partner (as he will trade at annoyed/furious IIRC, provided it is not a tech monopoly).

As we already know all the AI, not sure it is necessary to stop, although I understand what you mean. It is not unusual for us to stop at times if a new AI is met and there are a range of options that we have to decide on. In this game, it is already before us, more or less, and the player who is "up" should monitor changes in AI attitude?

I think your idea of checking in on Gandhi each time we discover a tech is a good and merits discussion. Should MP find that Gandhi's attitude changes and we have a chance to gift or trade a tech, then we should probably do so to foster that relationship. What do other team members think about this?

Another one, not sure about the usefulness of early warriors (aside garrison for cities), in a game with no barbarians.

Unless we research Archery, the only other thing we can do is build buildings while pop regenerates for the next crack of the whip. Suggestions for more effective use of production?

 

[leif erikson]

Puzzles me too. Don't think I'm familiar with the frazzled fool who posted that. Revolt at will, MP.

And here I thought you had developed a new way of rushing units. I was looking forward to learning what you had come up with.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I think your idea of checking in on Gandhi each time we discover a tech is a good and merits discussion. Should MP find that Gandhi's attitude changes and we have a chance to gift or trade a tech, then we should probably do so to foster that relationship. What do other team members think about this? Wouldn't the first thing we'd have to do be to trade a tech for peace, and that would seem wise. Beyond that, wondering what we might do to facilitate early tech trading under these unusual circumstances. Is it worthwhile to beeline Alpha in order to trade for peace early. At some point the AI are going to meet each other, and then tech swapping should become faddish. Be nice to get ahead of this. Might be something to test.

Unless we research Archery, the only other thing we can do is build buildings while pop regenerates for the next crack of the whip. Suggestions for more effective use of production?

One scout and one warrior are obvious needs. A third wkbt for exploring might be important depending on the map, and a barracks will be needed eventually. As soon as either Pottery or Writing is researched, there are two other obvious builds. Then there are additional warriors for MPs in additional cities and possibly for nuke targets. Hopefully, a strategic resource will turn up and we can build chariots or axes. Don't think we're going to be stuck for something useful to build while our capital grows.

 

[Mad Professor]

Thanks for all the comments. Noted. Looking good for playing in about 13 hours.

One thing I might stop for (other than completely unforeseen surprises) is a peace deal with Gandhi that he will accept - if it is rather expensive, I might stop to ask opinions from the team whether it's worth taking the deal. Even meanwhile, if anyone has any opinions on how much we're willing to pay Gandhi for peace, then let me know. The advantage of getting peace with Gandhi is that he might trade other techs.

First settler at T50 sounds a bit late. Has anyone tested building the settler before the 2nd worker. Note that 2nd worker can be whipped not long after the settler.

I did think hard about this one. In my own testing I only produced one worker before growing Moscow flat out and whipping the worker the instant we got to size 4. I notice in Hawk's test though that the second worker became quite powerful in getting rid of fallout sooner and making the first two city spots much more useful more quickly. I decided I liked that better, and so went for two workers before a settler. Doing the second worker does delay the settler - no doubt about it, but I think it's valuable to have those two workers out early, and in the second and third turnsets, I think we'll see the power of that more clearly. Anyone got any other comments on that?

 

[Mad Professor]

One scout and one warrior are obvious needs. A third wkbt for exploring might be important depending on the map, and a barracks will be needed eventually. As soon as either Pottery or Writing is researched, there are two other obvious builds. Then there are additional warriors for MPs in additional cities and possibly for nuke targets. Hopefully, a strategic resource will turn up and we can build chariots or axes. Don't think we're going to be stuck for something useful to build while our capital grows.

I don't think what Moscow should build while growing is going to be an issue in this turnset. As CP says, scout and one warrior are important - scout for scouting, one warrior to stop Moscow from being unhappy in brief moments it's at size 4. After that, again as CP says, another WBoat would probably be useful unless the scout by then has demonstrated it won't be.

As for buildings (which are not going to be a real issue in the first 40 turns) I'd be inclined to build the granary and the library (when available) before the barracks as I think they have more immediate benefits. Obviously a barracks will be necessary, but not before granary and library - as I said though, I think that is an issue for the second turnset.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Looking forward to reading your report in the morning, MP. Try to minimize your exposure to the radiation.

 

[zamint3]

Working the fish should give us enough food early on to grow if we are not going beyond pop3/4, so writing and library before pottery.

Go ahead MP - and good luck!

 

[Frederiksberg]

Anyone got any other comments on that?

Whip settler at pop4 then build worker for a few turns and whip at size 2. This is faster than doing it the other way around. When whipping several units fast always start with the most expensive! Delaying a chop may free time to scrub the new city site. I think it's worth checking if this works.

 

[Mad Professor]

I should be able to begin playing shortly. It looks like after 172 posts in our thread someone will actually play the first turn!

 

[Mad Professor]

OK – I’ve played to turn 35, 2600BC. I think this is a good spot to stop and I will upload the save to the site at this point in a few minutes time. The reasons I stopped here are that I got a little surprise with the location of horses upon completing AH, we need to discuss the next tech a little more, and we now know the location of copper and ivory.

As far as Moscow is concerned from here, there’s not much discussion for the immediate future I think – whip the worker in a couple of turns, then build scout and warrior while growing ASAP to size 4 in order to whip a settler. Some other things might need a little discussion however. Here’s my notes:

I open the file, it’s 4000BC, I move the settler NE.
T1 3960BC: settle Moscow in NNE spot, start wkr, study fishing, using forest, the only available tile
T2 3920BC: Nothing
T3 3880BC: DeGaulle adopts Nationhood (therefore has nationalism)
Roosevelt adopts representation (therefore has pyramids or constitution)
Mao adopts state property (therefore has communism)
Gandhi has archery + Myst + other stud beyond those techs (+ alphabet)
I remember to put all our espionage points on Stalin at this point
T4 3840BC: Borders of Moscow expand
T5 3800BC: DeG will negotiate, but we can’t pay for peace, The AI’s all accumulating EP’s on us fast!
T6 3760BC: Gandhi will talk, same story as DeGaulle.
T7 3720BC: Fish -> BW, switch Moscow to WBoat
T8 3680BC: All except Roosevelt will talk, we can’t buy peace with anyone, WW decreasing (now 82 each) but diplo –ve for war increasing. Fishing not enough to buy peace with Gandhi
T9 3640BC: Buddhism founded
T10 3600BC: Gandhi becomes Buddhist, Roosevelt will talk, but same story
T11 3560BC: Esp points the AI’s have accumulated on us so far:
Stalin: 66 (6/turn)
Mao: 55 (5/turn)
DeGaulle: 66 (6/turn)
Churchill: 66 (6/turn)
Roosevelt: 50 (about 4.5/turn)
Gandhi: 47 (just over 4/turn)
We’re accumulating 4/turn on Stalin
T12 3520BC – nothing
T13 3480BC – nothing
T14 3440BC – nothing
T15 3400BC Espionage points accumulated last five turns:
Stalin +24
Churchill +16
Mao +22
DeGaulle +28
Roosevelt +20
Gandhi +18
None of the AI’s have met each other
T16 3360BC: Gandhi gets Agric
T17 3320BC – nothing
T18 3280BC – nothing
T19 3240BC – nothing
T20 3200BC – nothing
T21 3160BC – nothing
T22 3120BC: Wboat complete, resume wkr, wboat moves to fish
T23 3080BC: BW ->AH, net fish. Switch to WBoat. BW is not enough for peace with Gandhi, Gandhi has fishing
T24 3040BC – nothing
T25 3000BC: Moscow to size 2, revolt to slavery, switch back to wkr
T26 2960BC – nothing
T27 2920BC: Moscow’s borders expand again, Ivory now visible to the west, and copper to the south!
T28 2980BC: Gandhi gets Wheel
T29 2840BC: Whip wkr, we are just 0.1 of Stalin’s power! Other AI’s have big cities! Delhi size 4, Beijing size 5, London size 4, Washington size 4, Stalingrad size 3
T30 2800BC: Worker to forest, resume WB
T31 2760BC: Hinduism founded, start chop, WW now down to 41
T32 2720BC: Stalin converts to Hinduism
T33 2680BC Complete chop
T34 2640BC: WB2 to clam, net clams, Worker to western cows, Moscow begins worker, grows to size 2, working both fish and clams
T35 2600BC: AH -> Writing (As placeholder, can be immediately changed if the team decides)
We settled on horses!
Worker starts scrubbing cows
BW + AH not enough to buy peace with Gandhi!

Here’s a screen shot of our home area:



Here’s the save – not yet uploaded to the server, but will be in a few minutes if my internet service actually lives up to its name which it hasn't been doing very much tonight:

View attachment Catherine BC-2600.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Mad Professor]

Save is uploaded to the server - here's the log the server gave me:

Here is your Session Turn Log from 4000 BC to 2600 BC:

Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!

Turn 1, 3960 BC: Moscow has been founded.

Turn 2, 3920 BC: De Gaulle adopts Nationhood!
Turn 2, 3920 BC: Roosevelt adopts Representation!
Turn 2, 3920 BC: Mao Zedong adopts State Property!

Turn 6, 3760 BC: You have discovered Fishing!

Turn 8, 3680 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 9, 3640 BC: Gandhi converts to Buddhism!

Turn 21, 3160 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Worker.

Turn 22, 3120 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!

Turn 24, 3040 BC: Churchill adopts Slavery!

Turn 25, 3000 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 25, 3000 BC: Catherine adopts Slavery!
Turn 25, 3000 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 26, 2960 BC: The borders of Moscow have expanded!

Turn 29, 2840 BC: You have trained a Worker in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.

Turn 30, 2800 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 31, 2760 BC: Stalin the Despicable converts to Hinduism!

Turn 33, 2680 BC: Moscow will become unhealthy on the next turn.
Turn 33, 2680 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 ? for Moscow.
Turn 33, 2680 BC: Moscow will grow to size 2 on the next turn.

Turn 34, 2640 BC: Moscow has grown to size 2.
Turn 34, 2640 BC: Moscow has become unhealthy.
Turn 34, 2640 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!
Turn 34, 2640 BC: You have discovered a source of Horse near Moscow!

Turn 35, 2600 BC: Moscow has become healthy.

 

[Grifftavian]

Nice turn set, MP!

IIRC, I'm up next: I have downloaded the 2600 BC save and open it successfully. I'll take a closer look this evening, and start working on a pre-play plan. Meanwhile, the floor is open for suggestions.

To start everyone thinking, attached is a screen shot of some dot-mapped possible locations for future cities. The white dot might make a fair production city, possibly better than fair if we build the Moai Statues there. Only the Rice as a food source, however, unless there is more seafood offshore that we can't see yet. Blue dot gets the two Silk and the Ivory in its BFC.

 

[Conquistador 63]

Maybe insert wheel for early chariots? If we manage to pick some enemy archer here and there the AI would be more willing to get peace. Then pottery > writing, for both the granaries and the pre-req discounts?

 

[Sam_Yeager]

lurker's comment: Can I suggest enclosing log contents in spoiler tags? It makes the thread rather more readable especially when the logs are lengthy. The Buffy logs contain additional information to that generated by the submission process so would be worth posting as well (in spoiler tags ). As I am lurking other threads I shall refrain from any comment on your decisions so far.

 

[Grifftavian]

Maybe insert wheel for early chariots? If we manage to pick some enemy archer here and there the AI would be more willing to get peace. Then pottery > writing, for both the granaries and the pre-req discounts?

I was going to ask this very question for my pre-play play preparation. Makes sense to me, and maybe we use Chariots instead of Scouts for land-based exploration? Since C63 has brought it up, I'll go ahead and put this in the draft PPP; if everyone thinks we should stick with Writing first, speak up now.

Speaking of which...

Draft Pre-Play Plan starting at 2600 BC, Version 0.1

Questions I need answered in blue.

RESEARCH
Change to Wheel>Pottery>Writing.
Next = Agriculture for the Rice?

MOSCOW (currently Size 2)
Current Build = Worker -> 6 turns remaining.
Next builds = Scout & Work Boat for Exploration, but switch to Settler at Size 4 and whip for 2 population.
After whip, finish exploring Work Boat, or start another Worker with whip overflow?
Chariot instead of Scout for land-based exploration?

WORKER ACTIONS
Worker 1: currently scrubbing Cows 1W of Moscow. Next = Pasture for Cows, then scrub & Mine the riverside Gold Hill.
After completion of Gold Mine, should Worker 1 build a road back to Moscow through the Cow Pasture, or move on to scrubbing the other Cows?

Worker 2...
Job 1 = Scrub site for City #2 (location TBD)
Job 2 = Scrub Copper, then Mine Copper
Job 3 = Scrub Rice, then Farm Rice
Do we want to get the Copper mined and connected first, just in case?

EXPLORATION
Scout 1 (or Chariot 1?) - Move to Grass Hill 1S of Ivory for maximum Fog Bust. Then, move in whichever direction seems most promising (i.e., scout around new found resources, on move to other hills for fog busting).

Work Boat 3 - Sail around south side of our peninsula, to south of Silk Trees, then continue south along coast.

CITY #2 LOCATION
Right now, I'm leaning toward the white dot-map location from my earlier screen shot, but that could change depending on what our exploring units discover. Perhaps a good stopping point for this turn set is at the completion of the Settler build? Or, if everyone agrees on a location for City #2, I could stop after that city is founded?

lurker's comment: Can I suggest enclosing log contents in spoiler tags? It makes the thread rather more readable especially when the logs are lengthy. The Buffy logs contain additional information to that generated by the submission process so would be worth posting as well (in spoiler tags ). As I am lurking other threads I shall refrain from any comment on your decisions so far.

Hi Sam! Nice to see a familiar face lurking our thread. I'm sure those other threads aren't nearly as exciting and informative as this thread.

 

[leif erikson]

Nice work MP!

Looks like you got us off to a great start.

Roster:
Active:
Grifftavian - UP
zamint3 - On Deck
Conquistador63
Cactus Pete
Ronnie1
leif
Mad Professor

Lurker:
da_Vinci
Frederiksberg
Rusten
The-Hawk

Games says we can make peace, but the AI do not seem to know about it?

On tech, I can live with inserting The Wheel as the roaded Cow will increase our health in Moscow. I think we should get Writing before Pottery as we need to build a Library to get a Scientist started for an Academy.

I'm wondering if we should just build a Warrior for scouting as a Scout will not move two tiles through all this fallout anyway and has a better chance for survival should he run into anything? Perhaps even a Work Boat first to scout the southern city site for seafood resources? At least the WB can move 2-tiles per turn.

edit - Stalin must have a building producing some Espionage points as he is up against us 199 to 124?
War Weariness has dropped significantly as well. Now it is down to 34, we're getting there.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Nice set, MP.

RESEARCH
Change to Wheel Like Wheel next, but not sold on Pottery before Writing.>Pottery>Writing.
Next = Agriculture for the Rice? Let's wait on this decision.

MOSCOW (currently Size 2)
Current Build = Worker -> 6 turns remaining. There are several reasonable options here. We have an abundance of food, but few hammers, which suggests using the whip for the worker because we can grow the city back so fast. Given the switch to Wheel, what about abandoning scout production and plan to use a chariot for exploration? If we chose that route, then let's build a warrior for two turns, switch back to worker for two (getting rid of unhappiness due to prior whipping) and then whip it. We can then get back to 2 pop in 2 turns while we finish warrrior and then start Chariot.
Next builds = Scout & Work Boat for Exploration Prefer warrior and chariot., but switch to Settler at Size 4 and whip for 2 population.
After whip Let's put off this decision also., finish exploring Work Boat, or start another Worker with whip overflow?
Chariot instead of Scout for land-based exploration? Yes.

WORKER ACTIONS
Worker 1: currently scrubbing Cows 1W of Moscow. Next = Pasture for Cows, then scrub & Mine the riverside Gold Hill.
After completion of Gold Mine, should Worker 1 build a road back to Moscow through the Cow Pasture, or move on to scrubbing the other Cows? What about mining second gold?

Worker 2...
Job 1 = Scrub site for City #2 (location TBD) Think he should first help to pasture grass cow.
Job 2 = Scrub Copper, then Mine Copper Given the effectiveness of a chariot against axes, not sure that copper is such a high priority. Rather select and prepare site for next city based on total picture, which means exploration before deciding.
Job 3 = Scrub Rice, then Farm Rice Not unless we're settling south, and getting the second gold mine rates high priority.
Do we want to get the Copper mined and connected first, just in case? Would need a reason to do this.

EXPLORATION
Scout 1 (or Chariot 1?) - Move to Grass Hill 1S of Ivory for maximum Fog Bust. Need to first explore possible second city sites. Then, move in whichever direction seems most promising (i.e., scout around new found resources, on move to other hills for fog busting).

Work Boat 3 - Sail around south side of our peninsula, to south of Silk Trees, then continue south along coast. If we build it that is one possibility, but a land unit can accomplish this, and there is land to the north that may only be accessible by boat.

CITY #2 LOCATION
Right now, I'm leaning toward the white dot-map location from my earlier screen shot, but that could change depending on what our exploring units discover. Concur, we need more info. Perhaps a good stopping point for this turn set is at the completion of the Settler build? Makes sense, but you may want to pause earlier if something interesting happens. Or, if everyone agrees on a location for City #2, I could stop after that city is founded?

Need to discuss merits of Pottery vs. Writing, and how to facilitate tech trading.