SGOTM 12 - Xteam

[Sam_Yeager]

Hi Sam! Nice to see a familiar face lurking our thread. I'm sure those other threads aren't nearly as exciting and informative as this thread.

lurker's comment: Thanks for the welcome Griff. No bites from me on your other comment/question.

 

[Frederiksberg]

The strong capital means that an Oracle sling to CS would be very strong.

 

[Cactus Pete]

The strong capital means that an Oracle sling to CS would be very strong.

If the AI will leave us alone. Another reason for prioritizing exploration.

Note that once copper is connected, we will no longer be able to build warriors as cheap MPs or targets for nukes. This makes city site near ivory and cows a bit more relatively attractive. A city on that site would allow use of fish for growth and use of gold while capital grows after whipping. Also, camp on ivory will increase happiness and eventually allow a size 7 capital to utilize both golds and run two scientists.

 

[Grifftavian]

OK, switch research to The Wheel, latest save shows 5 turns for completion.

• Pottery currently shows 7 turns for completion, but since Wheel is a prerequisite, maybe it gets discounted down to 6 turns.
• Writing currently shows 12 turns for completion, but Pottery is a prerequisite, maybe it gets discounted down to 11 or 10 turns if we research Pottery first.

I think its a given that we want & need both techs. I believe overall time to research both would be less if we get Pottery first. The trade-off is we delay building a Library in our Capitol, thus delaying the ability to run Scientist Specialist(s). However, we could be building a Granary while recovering from the whip, and a completed Granary would help to recover sooner from future applications of the whip.

So I guess it comes down to what we want to do next. If we are going to whip out some more Workers and 2 or 3 Settlers, then IMO Pottery before Writing is the way to go. But if we want to jump start our Research Capability for the Space Race, then perhaps Writing before Pottery is the way to go.

Anyway, that's how I see it, what does everyone else think?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Makes sense. We're not going to be able to run many scientists while we're whipping and re-growing, which would argue for Pottery first. We are probably going to want to whip multiple settlers and workers. Might whip the library after first settler out and granary constructed. Moreover, if AI units show or some benifit from agressive action present itself, and we need to whip units early, having a granary would be much more desirable than a library.

 

[Conquistador 63]

+1 for wheel/pottery before writing.
I agree with all of CP's comments about Griff's PPP.
Re. city2: in an ordinary game I would always settle towards the cows/ivory before the rice area, as the latter would be safer to settle later. But we need scouting to check if the ivory city would be too exposed to the enemy AI.

 

[Grifftavian]

Draft Pre-Play Plan starting at 2600 BC, Version 0.2, changes in Maroon.

Questions I need answered in blue.

RESEARCH
Current = Writing, 12 turns for completion.
Change to Wheel>Pottery>Writing.
Maybe won't apply to this turn set, but after Writing =???? Suggestions?

MOSCOW (currently Size 2)
Current Build = Worker -> 6 turns remaining.
Change to...

1. Warrior for 4 turns while whip unhappiness ends and city grow to size 3
2. Switch back to Worker and whip for 1 population
3. Finish Warrior with whip over and start Chariot
4. Change to Settler at size 4 and whip for two population
5. Finish Chariot with whip overflow and start Granary
6. End turn set, post After Turn Set Report, upload save

WORKER ACTIONS
Worker 1: currently scrubbing Cows 1W of Moscow. Next...

1. Pasture for Cows when scrubbed
2. Scrub & Mine the riverside Gold Hill
3. Scrub & Mine the other Gold Hill

Worker 2 (when built)...

1. Scrub & Pasture Cows 1SE of Moscow
2. Scrub site for City #2 (if location has been determined)
3. otherwise scrub tiles around Moscow until need for City #2

EXPLORATION
Warrior 1 - west & northwest out of of Moscow, toward the Ivory & Cows, continuing beyond while looking for new city sites and location of any near by neighbors.

Chariot 1 - will be finished with whip overflow from Settler, so it can escort the Settler to wherever we decide to found City #2.

TURN SET NOTES
I'm planning to stop the turn set after completion of the Settler and Chariot as noted above. I will not found city #2, but I will place a dot-map down for any interesting city sites I discover. If I encounter any units from an AI Civ, I'll use the ALT+S function to place a sign on the map where that unit was first spotted. And if I do encounter any enemy unit, I'll suspend the turn set and notify the team for discussion and instructions.

Comments/Suggestions? I can play any time with concurrence on the paln.

 

[leif erikson]

Makes sense. We're not going to be able to run many scientists while we're whipping and re-growing, which would argue for Pottery first. We are probably going to want to whip multiple settlers and workers. Might whip the library after first settler out and granary constructed. Moreover, if AI units show or some benifit from agressive action present itself, and we need to whip units early, having a granary would be much more desirable than a library.

Agreed, Granary will be most useful early. We must not lose sight of the value of early Academy and should plan for early Library. Not sure if whipping it is best, have to look at that a bit later.

Maybe won't apply to this turn set, but after Writing =???? Suggestions?

Fred had suggested the power of CS sling? Would be nice if we could trade, but that doesn't look probable.

Is the CS sling a feasible gambit at this point? It is a bit contrary to whipping as we would need to have pop to work Gold and run Scientists? This may be an important advantage to Cow/Ivory first?

+1 for wheel/pottery before writing.
I agree with all of CP's comments about Griff's PPP.
Re. city2: in an ordinary game I would always settle towards the cows/ivory before the rice area, as the latter would be safer to settle later. But we need scouting to check if the ivory city would be too exposed to the enemy AI.

This is another interesting problem. We must scrub the city site in order to found it, so we must plan far enough ahead to ensure a Worker and a unit to cover him are available.

My read is that the Cow/Ivory site will be most beneficial now. I think we can delay this decision for a while, but not sure that we can adequately recon before we need to make it. We played safe in the last SGOTM and payed for it, perhaps this is a risk worth taking. Getting boxed in would be worse, wouldn't it?

 

[Grifftavian]

Agreed, Granary will be most useful early. We must not lose sight of the value of early Academy and should plan for early Library. Not sure if whipping it is best, have to look at that a bit later.

Fred had suggested the power of CS sling? Would be nice if we could trade, but that doesn't look probable.

Is the CS sling a feasible gambit at this point? It is a bit contrary to whipping as we would need to have pop to work Gold and run Scientists? This may be an important advantage to Cow/Ivory first?

With 2 Cows, Fish & Clams, Moscow will regrow fairly fast, so may still be able to do an occasional whip there if we go this route. We could let Moscow grow up to its happiness limit, and then whip another Worker or Settler, while the other cities just grow and build libraries and run scientist specialists.

Can we research all the prerequisites and still beat the AI Civs to The Oracle on this Emperor level game? If we want to take a shot at it, then after Writing, we would need to research Mysticism>Polytheism>Priesthood>Mathematics>Code of Laws, and of course time the building of The Oracle to finish with or just after COL.

Another less ambitious goal would be to slingshot Theology from The Oracle. Maybe not as useful as early adoption of Civil Service, but Theology puts us only one tech away (Paper) from being able to research Education and then start building Universities and Oxford University. (Tech path = Mysticism>Masonry>Polytheism>Priesthood>Monotheism)

This is another interesting problem. We must scrub the city site in order to found it, so we must plan far enough ahead to ensure a Worker and a unit to cover him are available.

My read is that the Cow/Ivory site will be most beneficial now. I think we can delay this decision for a while, but not sure that we can adequately recon before we need to make it. We played safe in the last SGOTM and payed for it, perhaps this is a risk worth taking. Getting boxed in would be worse, wouldn't it?

IMO, getting boxed in wouldn't be good. I was planning on having that first Warrior head toward the Ivory & Cows to bust some fog in that direction. I could have Worker 1 follow him after he scrubs and mines the riverside gild hill, so that Worker 1 could scrub any decent city sites. Worker 2 could then scrub and mine the other Gold hill and the other Cows around Moscow. What does everyone think of that plan?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Suggested minor changes:

Produce warrior for only two turns before switching to worker for two turns before unhappiness ends and can whip. This gets our pop back to one for two turns, but that is compensated by getting the worker out two turns earlier and being able to whip next time two turns sooner without extending/doubling unhappiness.

Hard to know exactly without testing, but strongly suspect that it will be wise long term to road the grass cows and either the riverine gold or the forest just south of it (AND CHOPPING THAT FOREST SOON SHOULD BE GIVEN SERIOUS CONSIDERATION, AS THERE ARE CRITICAL BUILDS BEING MADE IN THE CAPITAL NOW -- e.g. help with chariot and/or granary). We will likely have frequent use of a road west, especially if we settle cow/ivory site and have need to protect it. Concur that using both workers to get first gold cleared and mined quickly makes sense.

Do not think it will be good use of worker turns now to clear and pasture second cow. Those cows don't figure to get much use by our capital anytime soon. Pasturing them may be a task for our third worker.

Like idea of having warrior proceed worker. Those two hills south of the lake might indeed be good initial destination for warrior.

Sure wish someone had insight into how to get AI to trade tech. If there is a way to do that early, it could be the key to winning the game. Any idea why the creators suicided so many warriors? Why wasn't, say, 50 enough?

 

[Mad Professor]

Suggested minor changes:

Produce warrior for only two turns before switching to worker for two turns before unhappiness ends and can whip. This gets our pop back to one for two turns, but that is compensated by getting the worker out two turns earlier and being able to whip next time two turns sooner without extending/doubling unhappiness.

Good suggestion.

Do not think it will be good use of worker turns now to clear and pasture second cow. Those cows don't figure to get much use by our capital anytime soon. Pasturing them may be a task for our third worker.

I agree - we're only going to be at size 4 for one turn at a time for a little while I suspect.

Sure wish someone had insight into how to get AI to trade tech. If there is a way to do that early, it could be the key to winning the game. Any idea why the creators suicided so many warriors? Why wasn't, say, 50 enough?

I think one of the factors involved in how much an AI will demand for peace has to do with how many of your units they have killed compared to how many of theirs you killed. If the map maker suicided a lot of our units then the AI will demand a very high price for peace because he killed so many of our units!

We need to keep checking with each new tech whether we have enough to pay Gandhi off and decide whether it is worth paying it.

 

[zamint3]

Agree with: Wheel - Pottery - Writing
Remember we have fast libraries so they don't take long to construct!

Hard to know exactly without testing, but strongly suspect that it will be wise long term to road the grass cows and either the riverine gold or the forest just south of it.

If we do another chop at least the cow should have a road for health reasons.

Do not think it will be good use of worker turns now to clear and pasture second cow. Those cows don't figure to get much use by our capital anytime soon. Pasturing them may be a task for our third worker.

Agree, at pop 4 we will hopefully be working fish, cow and two gold!

Go ahead Griff.

 

[Grifftavian]

Draft Pre-Play Plan starting at 2600 BC, Version 0.3, changes in Maroon.

Questions I need answered in blue.

RESEARCH
Current = Writing, 12 turns for completion.
Change to Wheel>Pottery>Writing.

MOSCOW (currently Size 2)
Current Build = Worker -> 6 turns remaining.
Change to...

1. Warrior for 2 turns
2. Switch back to Worker, build for 2 turns while whip unhappiness ends, then whip for 1 population
3. Finish Warrior with whip overflow and start Chariot
4. Change to Settler at size 4 and whip for two population
5. Finish Chariot with whip overflow and start Granary
6. End turn set, post After Turn Set Report, upload save

WORKER ACTIONS
Worker 1: currently scrubbing Cows 1W of Moscow. Next...

1. Pasture for Cows when scrubbed, then build road on Pasture for benefit
2. Scrub & Mine the riverside Gold Hill
3. move 1S and chop riverside trees for Granary build (or pre-chop for Library if Granary completed), then build road

Worker 2 (when built)...

1. Assist Worker 1 with Cow Pasture
2. Scrub & Mine Gold Hill 1SW of Moscow
3. Scrub & Mine Plains Hill S+SE of Moscow
4. scrub other tiles around Moscow
5. pre-chop riverside trees S+SW of Moscow for future build

EXPLORATION
Warrior 1 - west & northwest out of of Moscow, toward the Ivory & Cows, continuing beyond while looking for new city sites and location of any near by neighbors.

Chariot 1 - will be finished with whip overflow from Settler, so it can escort the Settler to wherever we decide to found City #2.

TURN SET NOTES
I'm planning to stop the turn set after completion of the Settler and Chariot as noted above. I will not found city #2, but I will place a dot-map down for any interesting city sites I discover. If I encounter any units from an AI Civ, I'll use the ALT+S function to place a sign on the map where that unit was first spotted. And if I do encounter any enemy unit, I'll suspend the turn set and notify the team for discussion and instructions.

Comments/Suggestions? I can play later today, ~6 or 7 hours from this post, with concurrence on the plan.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Believe that worker 2 will be built before cow pasture is completed, so suggest its first task be to help complete the pasture, as a pastured cow is better than netted clams.

 

[Grifftavian]

Believe that worker 2 will be built before cow pasture is completed, so suggest its first task be to help complete the pasture, as a pastured cow is better than netted clams.

Good idea! I will do this. Thanks for all you suggestions with my PPP!

 

[leif erikson]

Looks like we are ready to go from here.

Good Luck!

 

[Mad Professor]

Go get 'em Griff. Keep a close eye on events and AI appearances etc.

 

[Grifftavian]

Looks like we are ready to go from here.

Good Luck!

Go get 'em Griff. Keep a close eye on events and AI appearances etc.

OK, I'll start playing in about 2 or 3 hours from this post.

BTW Leif, congratulations on your promotion to Moderator for the Civ 5 Forums!

 

[leif erikson]

BTW Leif, congratulations on your promotion to Moderator for the Civ 5 Forums!

Hope it helps me to play the game better...

That is if I could get it to work.

 

[Grifftavian]

After Turn Set Report

Things went pretty much according to the pre-play plan. A few minor deviations, which are noted in the Autolog, the main one being that when Moscow grew to Size 4, it had 1 turn of whip unhappiness remaining, and 1 turn left to complete the Chariot, so I let the Chariot complete before starting the Settler. The Settler was whipped a couple of turns later, and is waiting in Moscow, where I have started a Granary.

The Wheel and Pottery have been completed, and we are currently researching Writing.

I tried to make Peace with Gandhi several times, but no luck. He wouldn't even take Peace with Animal Husbandry and Bronze Working thrown in. War weariness is down to 3 at the saved turn set.

The Chariot went to the southern point of our peninsula, but didn't spot any additional Seafood.

However, the Warrior found lots of interesting stuff out to the west, including the French Cultural Borders, but it appears they may be on an adjacent island. He spotted one French Worker, and I've marked the spot on the map where the Warrior saw him. The Warrior has also found three City Ruins and many more resources. There is an additional Ivory 1NW of the one MP discovered earlier. I've put some Green dot-maps down where the City Ruins are located. Looks as though they might make good city sites, what does everyone think?

And Mao has already founded a 2nd city.

They say a picture is worth 1000 words, so attached are several thousand words worth of screen shots from the final turn of my turn set. Turn set stopped on turn 52/1920 BC. Turn set has been uploaded.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2600 BC to 1920 BC:

Spoiler :

Turn 39, 2440 BC: You have trained a Worker in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Warrior.

Turn 40, 2400 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

Turn 43, 2280 BC: De Gaulle adopts Slavery!

Turn 46, 2160 BC: Mao Zedong adopts Slavery!

Turn 47, 2120 BC: You have discovered Pottery!

Turn 50, 2000 BC: Moscow can hurry Settler for 2? with 10? overflow and +1? for 10 turns.

Turn Set Autolog...

Spoiler :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 35 (2600 BC) [29-Sep-2010 17:50:41]
Player Comment Grifftavian Start Turn Set 1...
Research begun: The Wheel (6 Turns)
Research begun: Pottery (6 Turns)
Moscow begins: Warrior (8 turns)
Player Comment Researched changed to Wheel>Pottery
Player Comment Warrior added to top of build queue in Moscow
Player Comment Gandhi will not go for Peace Treaty, hitting turn button
100% Research: 13 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 36 (2560 BC) [29-Sep-2010 17:54:24]
100% Research: 13 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 37 (2520 BC) [29-Sep-2010 17:54:48]
Moscow begins: Warrior (6 turns)
Moscow begins: Warrior (6 turns)
Player Comment Worker moved back to top of build queue in Moscow
100% Research: 13 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 38 (2480 BC) [29-Sep-2010 17:56:10]
100% Research: 13 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: De Gaulle (France) towards Churchill (England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Roosevelt (America) towards De Gaulle (France), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Stalin the Despicable (Old Russia) towards Roosevelt (America), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 39 (2440 BC) [29-Sep-2010 17:57:28]
Player Comment Worker whipped for 1 pop. & 2 hammers overflow
100% Research: 11 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Moscow
Moscow finishes: Worker

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: De Gaulle (France) towards Churchill (England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: De Gaulle (France) towards Mao Zedong (China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Roosevelt (America) towards De Gaulle (France), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Stalin the Despicable (Old Russia) towards Roosevelt (America), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 40 (2400 BC) [29-Sep-2010 17:58:38]
Player Comment Worker 2 1W to join Worker 1
100% Research: 11 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: The Wheel
Moscow finishes: Warrior

Turn 41 (2360 BC) [29-Sep-2010 17:59:27]
Moscow begins: Chariot (15 turns)
Player Comment Warrior completed: "Go West, Young Man";started Chariot in Moscow
Player Comment Workers 1 & 2 building Pasture
Player Comment Gandhi refuses Peace Treaty with us giving him AH & BW!
100% Research: 11 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow grows to size 2

Turn 42 (2320 BC) [29-Sep-2010 18:05:04]
A Pasture was built near Moscow
Player Comment Cows have Pasture! Moscow at Size 2 & working Fish & Cow Pasture
100% Research: 11 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 43 (2280 BC) [29-Sep-2010 18:06:14]
Player Comment Worker 1 to riverside Gold Hill; Worker 2 builds road on Cow Pasture (minor change from PPP)
100% Research: 11 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: De Gaulle(France) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 44 (2240 BC) [29-Sep-2010 18:07:56]
Player Comment Road completed, we have health benefit from Cows!
Player Comment Warrior 1 spots Rice 2W of western Silk Trees, and spots another Ivory 1NW of other Ivory!!!!
100% Research: 11 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow grows to size 3

Turn 45 (2200 BC) [29-Sep-2010 18:10:56]
Player Comment Moscow at Size 3; Worker 2 moves 1S to other Gold Hill
Player Comment Warrior 1 spots City Ruins near Ivory, and what appears to be French terriotry off to west!
100% Research: 13 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 46 (2160 BC) [29-Sep-2010 18:17:47]
Player Comment Warrior 1 spots French territory, may be on nearby island or another continent. Also spots Pigs and small river 6W of Copper. Worker 2 scrubbing Gold Hill.
100% Research: 13 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Stalin the Despicable (Old Russia) towards De Gaulle (France), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Mao Zedong(China) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 47 (2120 BC) [29-Sep-2010 18:20:31]
100% Research: 13 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Pottery
Moscow grows to size 4

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: De Gaulle (France) towards Mao Zedong (China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Stalin the Despicable (Old Russia) towards De Gaulle (France), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Stalin the Despicable (Old Russia) towards Mao Zedong (China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 48 (2080 BC) [29-Sep-2010 18:21:42]
Research begun: Writing (10 Turns)
Player Comment Pottery complete, start Writing
Player Comment Moscow @ Size 4, unhappy, but 1 turn whip unhappiness remains. Also, 1 turn remaining on Chariot build, so I decide to let it finish before starting Settler.
100% Research: 13 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Chariot

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Stalin the Despicable (Old Russia) towards Mao Zedong (China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 49 (2040 BC) [29-Sep-2010 18:25:01]
Moscow begins: Settler (7 turns)
Player Comment Chariot complete, exploring coastline of our peninisula, looking for more seafood, Settler started in Moscow.
Player Comment Gandhi still won't go for Peace; War Weariness down to 9
100% Research: 15 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Moscow

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Roosevelt (America) towards De Gaulle (France), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 50 (2000 BC) [29-Sep-2010 18:28:16]
100% Research: 15 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 51 (1960 BC) [29-Sep-2010 18:30:08]
Player Comment Settler whipped for 2 pop. and 14 hammer overflow
Player Comment Warrior saw a French Worker
100% Research: 11 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Moscow
Moscow finishes: Settler

Turn 52 (1920 BC) [29-Sep-2010 18:32:02]
Moscow begins: Granary (15 turns)
Player Comment Settler complete, started Granary. Settler in Moscow.
Player Comment Both Workers are building a Gold Mine on different hills.
Player Comment Gandhi still won't go for Peace, War Weariness down to 3.